Without a means of going invisible, Shagrat couldn't avoid fighting at the Bandit Camp - so didn't bother looking for an invitation there. The main strategy there was to use charm/dominate to persuade enemies to kill each other. The sheer number of enemies there made that hard as it was difficult to stick around long enough for any charmed enemies to be killed. As the archers ran out of ammunition though it became much easier and I'd already killed 7 or 8 on this trip when a nymph successfully confused Venkt. With him apparently out of spells and with few shots now being fired, I took the risk of sticking around. There were still around 15 enemies active at that point, but repeated mini-stands with spirits gradually whittled them down as Shagrat ran round and round the edge of the map. That took a long time and I was seriously worried that Venkt would recover his spells, but fortunately that didn't happen and he was the last to fall.
Although it was a struggle to get to the Cloakwood, the danger was not decreasing, but increasing. With no invisibility or free action available, the first ambush by SCS spiders was likely to be the last. However, once more Shagrat beat the odds - only having to run from ettercaps and wyverns. At the mine Kysus was right out of luck - failing his save on 3 call lightnings in a row and dying before the other 2 could strike.
Rezdan died and Drasus was taken to near death by the continuing lightning damage and the latter was finished off while Genthore wandered off in confusion to await his turn.
After killing a number of guards in the mine, Shagrat dragged a lightning trap into Hareishan's room. After a couple of fighting retreats Hareishan then followed by herself to the top level. I thought that would be good and while a nymph and a charmed guard attacked the mage, Shagrat started dancing. Unfortunately, while he could not see Hareishan, the reverse didn't apply and a blindness and ray of enfeeblement sequencer came out of the blackness. The ray was particularly nasty as it left Shagrat unable to move (couldn't take off armor as he was in combat).
However, Hareishan appeared to have already used up all her other offensive spells on the nymph and guard (or possibly just decided she couldn't in fact see him after all) and Shagrat waited out the enfeeblement. One option would have been to rest to recover from the blindness and get his own spells back, but if Hareishan was out of spells it seemed more sensible to use spirits to kill her. Hareishan was attacking a spirit bear, but that was out of line of sight of Shagrat - so not attacking back. Shagrat therefore edged round the bend - and found that Hareishan had somehow kept back a charm person during the 3 turns or so since she'd used the sequencer ...
I reluctantly liked your post @Grond0. Amazing work at the bandit camp and delicious lightning strikes vs Drasus. Really sorry to this incarnation of Shagrat charmed. One downside of the Shaman is that unlike Druids they can't get access to level 5 spells and thus Chaotic Commands in BG1, especially with your restrictions.
I haven't been able to play much, so I'll just leave a mini update here on
Erelyn, CG Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger (3)
Having reached Cleric level 7, Erelyn decided to test her upgraded skeletons a bit against some of the tougher foes. First she had them clear up the ankheg nest (as well as a few more surface ankhegs). This went very smoothly. Back in Beregost, she then ordered them to avenge Neera, i.e. to slay Silke, which they did diligently (as mentioned before).
Sterner opposition awaited the skeletons at Durlag's Tower, but Erelyn had a nice little stimulant for them (or at least two of the three skeleton warriors) in her spell repertoire, a level 4 IWD spell called Blood Rage. It gives the recipient +2 to hit, +3 to damage, +2 to Strength, +10 to maximum Hit Points, and +2 to movement rate. Being the recipient of the spell is not without risks: HPs of the target are concealed, HPs cannot be healed, and at the end of the spell's duration, the target becomes fatigued and their Strength drops to 3 for 2 turns. Of course on a couple of summons these risks aren't as serious as on Erelyn herself. I wonder if this spell can be put to good use on enemies as well. It would have to be a scenario where Erelyn can find a way to keep a targeted enemy busy for the first two turns, while staying safe herself and perhaps busying herself with other foes, and then finish the enemy off when they're fatigued and their strength down to 3. Maybe Sarevok could be meleed this way?
Anyway, three skeleton warriors buffed with Radial PfE and Chant, and two of them with Blood Rage quickly disposed of Kirinhale, the Ghost, and about fifteen ghasts.
Wolves east of the Temple of the Morning, Landrin's spiders, some hobgoblins at the FAI, and Joia's quest XP brought Erelyn to exactly 150k XP, and her last level-up, to Ranger level 7.
Erelyn has just had her skeletons slay Gnarl and Hairtooth to sell the gauntlets of dexterity, and of course she picked up the charisma tome. She might go for more loot to sell, so she can buy some potions and scrolls at temples. In terms of gear there isn't much available at this point of the game that she doesn't already have. Without a bag of holding, the usefulness of items like the boots of the north or the girdle of bluntness may well be too situational to merit a spot in Erelyn's inventory. She might go look for the bracers of archery simply because a single Thac0 point over the gauntlets of weapon expertise can be worthwhile at this stage. But soon enough she'll have to descend into the Nashkel Mines.
Executive Summary: After refusing to kill Solaufein, Angelo completes some miscellaneous Ust Natha quests.
Angelo's last encounter with Solaufein and Phaere had dangled some intriguing threads in front of him. There was more to their relationship than met the eye... and he was determined to find out the juicy details!
Going on Patrol
Only once he'd arrived at Ust Natha tavern did Angelo realise that Phaere had not called him for a drink, but to order him on a svirfneblin hunt with Solaufein. Cursing his luck, Angelo vanished and sneaked past Boz et al, who still waited obediently by the intersection. Also waiting obediently was Solaufein, this time by the myonid king's corpse, and he was keen to get on with finding the gnomish patrol. "Don't worry," Angelo said with a pat on the back, "I've got this."
Once Solaufein had gone, Angelo went northwards and approached the svirfneblin leader. Taking their helmet back to Phaere in the tavern bagged 28,000 XP and a request to meet him in her chambers. "This sounds like a date," Angelo boasted to Felicity with a cheeky wink.
Hell Hath No Fury Like a Lover Scorned
Having spruced up, Angelo entered the Female Fighters' Society. As a gentleman, he'd let Phaere make the first move, but he was confident in his seduction skills. Not only had he draped the nymph cloak around his shoulders in preparation, but he'd also donned the ring of human influence... and not on his hand...
If Phaere had noticed his affections, she concealed it well. "I want you to kill Solaufein," she stated candidly. Angelo's face fell, but he bowed obediently nevertheless and made his way to the Male Fighters' Society. If she'd been stupid enough to accept the patrol leader's helmet, she'd probably fall for the same trick twice. Solaufein agreed and offered his drow piwafwi cloak as 'proof' of his demise. Angelo wondered why the drow were reluctant to attack Adalon given they had cloaks giving major bonuses against her draconic breath weapon, but figured it was probably the same logic that had Solaufein, a fighter, cherish a Stealth-enhancing item.
"By the way," Solaufein remarked on his way out, "Phaere and I used to be lovers." Angelo didn't react as he left, but breathed a sigh of relief once the coast was clear. If ordering their execution was how Phaere treated her partners, perhaps her inadvertent rejection of his advances had been a blessing in disguise.
Unfortunately, Phaere's tune had changed upon his return to the Female Fighters' Society, for the handover of Solaufein's piwafwi cloak earned more than another 30,000 XP. "Nice shoes," Phaere said, somehow biting her lip over the lollipop she had mysteriously started sucking.
"Actually, they're boots of speed," Angelo replied with a nervous giggle.
Phaere was not one to take a hint. "Is that a ring of human influence in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?"
"I'm a eunuch!" The lie tumbled out of his mouth before he could think it through, but Phaere seemed to buy it and lost interest almost immediately. Ordering him to meet with her and Matron Ardulace at the temple, Phaere threw away her lollipop and stormed out. Bullet dodged, Angelo returned the ring of human influence to his bag of holding (not a euphemism this time!) and followed close behind.
Confusing an adamantite smuggling beholder with an elder orb was an easy mistake to make - they looked the same if Phaere didn't look at her UI properly - but Matron Ardulace was having none of it. Still, she would settle for the blood of a kuo-toa prince or an illithid master brain if the eyestalk of an elder orb wasn't available. Angelo didn't mention he'd already acquired two items from this gruesome scavenger hunt, as there were a couple of quests he wanted to complete first... and since Matron Ardulace hadn't given him a time limit, this was the perfect time to do them!
Deirex Should Have Gone to Specsavers
Angelo was just wondering whether Deirex's Tower shared any similarities with its Durlag counterpart when a new salesman wandering the street connecting it with the fighters' societies offered to answer his question. Visaj asked for 1,000 GP for a magic rope required to enter the tower, but Angelo's curiosity was
so violently piqued that he threatened the merchant into giving it up for free. It didn't take long to see why, as Angelo had no sooner poked his head in the doorway than angry lich Deirex expelled him to... well, he didn't really know where.
What he did know was that Jarlaxle had worked out his surfacer credentials (Angelo wasn't sure how, but he swore the phrase, "The worst kept secret identity since Batman" was used) and was blackmailing him into obtaining some gems from Deirex's tower. Upon his return to Ust Natha, Angelo retreated to the shadows before entering the tower. His hope would surely be forlorn, as liches could see through illusions, but it would at least be a token gesture...
"Curious," Angelo murmured as he swept past, "why would a lich need to cast Oracle?" Disarming the dispel illusion trap on the western cupboard and the spear trap on the northern container, Angelo took the gems expecting to be transported back to Jarlaxle's pocket plane, but nothing happened. "Looks like Deirex has to be dead for this to trigger properly," Angelo surmised, readying his mace of disruption. Since the lich couldn't see through illusions, Angelo could sneak up and 'backstab' with his mace easily, using the lich's reluctance to move to sprint away and wait out any summons if the attempt was unsuccessful. In fact, he didn't have to wait too long.
This time, Jarlaxle's lair did beckon and the drow trickster relieved him of his hard earned gems. Angelo protested and Jarlaxle threw in two lots of 2,500 GP and 10,000 XP before returning him to Ust Natha. Nipping back into Deirex's tower, Angelo raided the downstairs containers for the armour of the viper +5 and visited the upstairs pool for a crossbow of affliction +4, making sure to take everything in one go since Felicity told him that once he'd left either floor, he could not return.
To maximise profits, Angelo cast Invisibility and used his newly obtained wardstone to disable House Jae'llat's defences. As before, this was a one-time offer, so Angelo made sure to snatch Water's Edge (a scimitar +3 in all but name), 4 emeralds and 45 pearls from the left cupboards, instantly disappearing to escape excess attention. For good measure, he pilfered 4 diamonds from the initially neutral Hindra Jae'llat (the only treasure he could steal) before disappearing and making his exit.
Taso Kala, Sondal and Dora the Explorer Fadoon
"On my way to House Jae'llat from Deirex's Tower, I spotted another new face outside the Female Fighters' Society," Angelo muttered to Felicity. "She didn't spot me since I was invisible, but I saw her name was Taso Kala. What's her story?"
"A nasty piece of work," Felicity replied. "She will rope you into killing some worshippers, two otyughs and loads of jellies on the same southern platform as you killed that beholder. You'll have to kill a necromancer Relonar, a Ghaunadaur priest leader and a Ghaunadaur priest - none of whom have any good items - to complete her quest. And get this, she'll give you no reward - not even any XP - for doing her dirty work!"
"Sounds like a lot of work," Angelo replied as he activated Stealth mode. "Guess we'll be sneaking past her every time."
True to his word, Angelo sneaked past her and into the tavern to nose around. Although Szordran in the main room offered the chance to fight various beasts, it was Sondal in the western chamber that Angelo was after. Watching Lasaonar slaughter four warriors informed Angelo that Sondal's fighter did fire damage on every hit, which was enough incentive for further investigation. Saying he'd challenge later, Angelo realised that he couldn't steal Lasaonar's sword and would have to fight in the arena for it. However, if Angelo cast Mislead before challenging Lasaonar, his clone would remain inaccessible outside the arena while Lasaonar and an invisible Angelo were transported inside. Lasaonar quickly realised that there was no way that he could win this battle and surrendered his blade of searing +3, along with 30,000 XP.
Although Angelo could have defeated the other arena challengers (along with Szordran's beasts) using this method, he instead entered the marketplace, where he bought several supplies. While there, he saw a genie, Dola Fadoon, being repeatedly tortured by some drow overseers and begging someone to end his suffering. Seeing an opportunity to make 5,000 XP, Angelo and his hasted summons happily provided the killing blow. The untitled overseer handmaiden was not amused, but mentioning his affiliation with House Despana meant Angelo could extricate himself with 2,000 GP compensation... and 5,000 XP for 2,000 GP didn't seem a bad trade.
"It's a good job you actually got the killing blow," Felicity said as they left. "Otherwise, you'd have had to pay compensation without getting any XP. Still, at least you waited until you'd spoken to Matron Ardulace... otherwise you'd have had to pay 4,000 GP!"
Although he could have handed in either the kuo-toa prince's blood or the elder orb's eyestalk, Angelo's pride stayed his hand. Now that he had some time to spare, he could complete the gruesome triumvirate. It was time to raid the Eastern Tunnels.
Yay! Welcome (back) to the fray, @Blackraven, @Harpagornis and @Grond0 . You know what they say about solo LoB challengers? You wait for one to come along... ;-)
Sorry to see Shagrat fall, @Grond0 . You're very brave to tackle the challenge without stealth! I think that shamans really do prove my point about the druid's main strength being the combination of their spells and fast progression... shamans only get the first of these and they seriously lag behind.
Then she approached Shoal under Sanctuary. The nereid addressed Erelyn, kissed her and dropped the Cleric/Ranger unconscious with 1 HP. Her Sanctuary was still in effect though, so she could retreat and heal up. In the meantime the skeletons were making short work of Shoal.
This is interesting. I never knew you could do this. Not that Angelo could have exploited it anyway, but it's useful to be aware of.
You've made good progress, dealing some enemies that I'm reluctant to take on, such as flesh golems, and especially Kirinhale.
There is a failsafe method of taking out the flesh golems at High Hedge. Lure one to the central ring and stand beside Thalantyr. When the golem approaches, hop over onto the other side of Thalantyr. The golem will turn round and go the opposite way, since it cannot squeeze past Thalantyr to reach you. Load up with enough enchanted ammo and you're practically guaranteed the kill with the golem's rubbish AC.
Yeah... good to see some party going on here again @AvidGamerFan! Su´rakka made lots of progress and is already in the big city but i must admit that i am too lazy to write things down. The rare time i have to play i just want to enjoy the game not bothering about any kind of log. If something of real interest happens i might still come up with a post!
There is a failsafe method of taking out the flesh golems at High Hedge. Lure one to the central ring and stand beside Thalantyr. When the golem approaches, hop over onto the other side of Thalantyr. The golem will turn round and go the opposite way, since it cannot squeeze past Thalantyr to reach you. Load up with enough enchanted ammo and you're practically guaranteed the kill with the golem's rubbish AC.
Yeah... good to see some party going on here again @AvidGamerFan! Su´rakka made lots of progress and is already in the big city but i must admit that i am too lazy to write things down. The rare time i have to play i just want to enjoy the game not bothering about any kind of log. If something of real interest happens i might still come up with a post!
Would be really good if you could indeed post about the interesting events and maybe the main battles? I'm inclined to do the same for Erelyn, at least until she gets further into the game (second half of SoD, certain parts of SoA, and of course most of ToB).
Erelyn, CG Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger (4)
Like Su´rakka, Erelyn has reached the city of Baldur's Gate. With minimal effort I can add. She picked up the bracers of archery only to sell them when she learnt that Cleric/Rangers can't use them. She did the same with the boots of the north. Inventory management without a bag of holding is a fresh experience for me. In a way it makes things simpler.
Stealth and Sanctuary helped her find her way to Mulahey, whom she charmed with Algernon's Cloak and fed to his own kobolds. Nimbul and Tranzig were dealt with by Erelyn's trusty skeleton warriors. She infiltrated the bandit camp with Raiken's help and used Sanctuary to loot Tazok's chest. Two potions of insulation (Mulahey's boots had already been sold) protected her from the lightning bolt trap.
In Cloakwood she had her skeletons obtain the cloak of non-detection for her, navigated the spider area with a casting of Free Action (saving her a potion for a more urgent occasion), and she received a potion of invulnerability from Laskal. She had two ettercap ambushes and the Molkar ambush to run away from before she reached the Cloakwood Mine. There she provoked Drasus, immediately retreated so he wouldn't enrage or quaff a protective potion, then charmed him with Algernon's cloak. His buddies made him pay with his life for not making his saving throw. Inside, she only stopped to talk to Rill, to tell Yeslick to get out, and to pick up a few potions at the shrine, before she confronted Davaeorn.
Charmed the guard, and summoned her skeletons, and buffed everyone (including herself). The not so well thought out plan was to try and lure the battle horrors away, and have the guard and the skeletons attack Davaeorn, an aggressive approach. But whereas Erelyn reached one of the side rooms (taking 43 damage from triggering several traps in the process), her summons got stuck in Davaeorn's Stinking Cloud/Web sequencer. The skeletons did manage to injure Davaeorn when free, but the battle horrors duly dispatched her aides. Erelyn then waited for the guards to come in, and took them out with 16 bottle/wand fireballs. Managed to rest in Davaeorn's lair, had skeleton warriors injure him again, until Davaeorn teleported to his battle horrors and they once more dispatched the summons. She had to quaff a potion of magic blocking when her stealth failed during her scouting, and Davaeorn cast a Chromatic Orb at her. But once she'd located him, she just slowly burned his HPs away with 27 Flamestrikes from her wand (which never did more than 5 damage).
Erelyn looted the book cases for scrolls and emptied the three chests in the room with the mustard jelly before she flooded the mine and traveled back to the civilized world. Only Lamalha ambushed her, and as with the previous ambushes, Erelyn simply ran away.
She's just spent almost all her gold on potions. There's more for her to buy, so she'll probably do a few of the more profitable quests, and pick up the good gear.
BTW Having used Algernon's Cloak a few times already and relied on skeleton warriors quite a bit ever since they became available, has made me wonder: has anyone tried their hand at this challenge, or even completed it, without ever using any charms or summons? Would be interesting to see what can be done playing this challenge solo in the strictest sense of the word. I haven't read the entire thread, so I may well have missed something. What classes/kits do you think might work for this?
BTW Having used Algernon's Cloak a few times already and relied on skeleton warriors quite a bit ever since they became available, has made me wonder: has anyone tried their hand at this challenge, or even completed it, without ever using any charms or summons? Would be interesting to see what can be done playing this challenge solo in the strictest sense of the word. I haven't read the entire thread, so I may well have missed something. What classes/kits do you think might work for this?
There have been a fair number of attempts based on wizard slayer restrictions. Summons are the most typical way of dealing with things, but other alternatives are available. For instance bounty hunters can use stealth and loads of traps. I've played a melee sorcerer character and made quite a bit of progress in BG1, though I don't think I've ever completed it (doesn't mean it's not possible, but I always play no-reload and have a bad habit of taking one risk too many ). Following a recent post by @Harpagornis I experimented a little bit with a shadowdancer dualled to fighter. The only encounter in BG1 that looks really problematic for that is the coronation where, without being able to use charms, I think you'd need a decent share of luck to deal with the dopplegangers before they killed the dukes.
Just as an aside I've tried this type of challenge in IWD and the monk instant kill ability allows pretty swift progress there (though grinding is necessary to get up to high level even with the bonus XP enabled).
WIth regard to the Bane of the Wizard Slayer a Shadow Dancer dualed to Mage should have pretty good chances to get through the SoD bottleneck @Grond0, no? Yeah, summons were key in my Druid poverty run and they are so powerful that most fights get quite "easy" @Blackraven. I was also thinking of some kind of "God Challenge" similar to Pillars of Eternity so if you have ideas which rules we could use to spice things up i am happy to put them together! ;o)
Well the challenge I had in mind for myself would be a mix of the existing Bane of the Wizard Slayer and Poverty/Noble challenges.
1. Charname can neither charm nor summon any creatures (be it through spells or items). As I said I was interested in solo play in the strictest sense of the word, simply because so many characters (including my own) seem to rely on charms and summons.
2a. No bag of holding is allowed during any portion of the game, nor is storage of items in a chest or barrel somewhere (specific containers for ammo, gems, scrolls are ok). The idea is that the hero has a handful of items they use, much like the heroes in epic stories. Basically the inventory is the limit.
2b. Gear can be sold but cannot be bought back. This should prevent the player from turning shops into storage places where they come to buy back gear they need for a specific quest, and sell it again later. It also rules out item recharging, nerfing especially wands.
I like 2a and 2b because I think it makes the challenge accessible to a broader range of classes than the poverty challenge, while still limiting the player significantly. Also I think most poverty characters have relied on charms and summons a lot, which would be disallowed in this challenge. The limited access to some gear would be compensation for the prohibition on charms and summons.
This challenge is probably not as hard as the Bane of the Wizard Slayer, because in that challenge the player cannot really summon or charm either (Ras and Spectral Brand come to mind in BG2 as exceptions), and they can use/equip fewer items, although they can keep a larger amount of items. Again one advantage of this challenge would be that it seems give a broader range of classes/kits a chance than the Bane of the WS challenge.
Any other rules that would make this challenge more interesting, are most welcome. (Ideally without discriminating too much against certain classes).
@Harpagornis: With the God Challenge you mean a list of optional quests/enemies that have to be completed/slain? That would be a formidable challenge, and definitely interesting! Think of foes like Kahrk, Loup Garou, and Demon Knight in BGEE, the Shadow Aspect in SoD, and probably lots of hard bosses in BG2. It would definitely remove the main benefit of playing solo over party play: the freedom to cherry-pick your XP.
Thanks for your input @Blackraven! I already had formulated some "god challenges" but lost my files. Here is a new list... more ideas are always welcome! ;o)
The Ultimate
Essential: Legacy of Bhaal, Solo, [No Reload]
Bhaal: You have to defeat a number of powerful enemies (Karoug, Demon Knight......)
Mystra: Creatures are immune to charm and domination
Tempus: Only weapons can be switched during combat
Cyric: Potions can only be consumed during combat
Malar: Only one summon spell can be active
Ilmater: Random number of Hit Points on level up
Gond: No inventory containers of any kind
Waukeen: No recharging of items in shops
Selune: You have to complete each part in a specific number of days (?)
Tempus could be changed into: You cannot flee from boss fights or something else while there is also the idea to ban the pause button even though i would hate that one cause of my bad reflexes.
What about turning this into a "Curses of the Gods" challenge, in which all of the above restrictions apply? However I'd like to allow each character one allied/patron deity, whose restriction does not apply to your character. That would allow for a degree of variety and make the challenge more replayable.
As for the specifics, I'll comment on your list.
- Bhaal's curse: perfect. We could compile a list of foes, and I'd be in favor of a threshold, say 75% or 80% of the listed names must be dealt with. This would, again, offer some variation and flexibility for every class.
- Mystra's curse I'd change into Sune's curse (charismatic goddess of beauty and love), but the no charm restriction is perfect.
- Tempus's curse: I like the not fleeing option better than the weapon switching option as Tempus literally commands his followers to never back away from a fight, although one is allowed to retreat in hopeless situations. This restriction would force one to take on ambushing parties, at least until you're sure you can't beat them.
- Cyric's curse: excellent
- Malar's curse: great
- Ilmater's curse: I like the restriction but would rename it Tymora's curse, after the deity of luck
- Gond's curse: great but imo better renamed as Ilmater's curse, as it imposes a more or less ascetic lifestyle.
- Waukeen's curse: excellent
- Selune's curse: great idea, every part of the game has to be completed within a set number of moons (one moon = 28 days).
This leaves Mystra and Gond out of your list. I'm sure some additional curses could be made up for them as well if you like them included. Ideas:
- Mystra's curse: uhm, no green scrolls? (Really rough with the undead in SoD that can see through invisibility, and with liches in BG2, PfM in ToB final fight)
- Gond's curse: no forged items by Jegg Hillcarver, Cromwell, Cespenar? (No impact in BGEE beyond the ankheg armor and the nymph cloak.)
Very interesting @Harpagornis!
- Mystra's curse: uhm, no green scrolls? (Really rough with the undead in SoD that can see through invisibility, and with liches in BG2, PfM in ToB final fight)
Mystra regulates the advancement of magical knowledge, so how about saying scroll learning for arcane types has to be left random (no use of potions)? That would maybe help a little bit to rebalance away from arcane challengers (and banning green scrolls would do the exact opposite) and also give slightly more reason to be a generalist rather than specialist mage.
Mystra regulates the advancement of magical knowledge, so how about saying scroll learning for arcane types has to be left random (no use of potions)? That would maybe help a little bit to rebalance away from arcane challengers (and banning green scrolls would do the exact opposite) and also give slightly more reason to be a generalist rather than specialist mage.
I agree that the current iteration of this new challenge favors casters, so some balancing is probably called for. If we were going to play with all but one of the curses at the same time, it would be nice if every curse affected each class to at least some degree. So maybe Mystra's curse could be adapted to that in some way? Maybe requiring the saving throws fix to be installed? That would affect casters more than martial characters, although the latter would also be affected to some extent.
Further, I'm unsure about Tempus's curse. Being allowed to run away when a battle becomes hopeless makes a lot of sense but it's a rather subjective criterion and thus a bit tricky to apply consistently.
Very interesting @Harpagornis!
- Mystra's curse: uhm, no green scrolls? (Really rough with the undead in SoD that can see through invisibility, and with liches in BG2, PfM in ToB final fight)
Mystra regulates the advancement of magical knowledge, so how about saying scroll learning for arcane types has to be left random (no use of potions)? That would maybe help a little bit to rebalance away from arcane challengers (and banning green scrolls would do the exact opposite) and also give slightly more reason to be a generalist rather than specialist mage.
I agree that the current iteration of this new challenge favors casters, so some balancing is probably called for. If we were going to play with all but one of the curses at the same time, it would be nice if every curse affected each class to at least some extent. So maybe Mystra's curse could be adapted to that in some way?
Further, I'm unsure about Tempus's curse. Being allowed to run away when a battle becomes hopeless makes a lot of sense but it's a rather subjective criterion and thus a bit tricky to apply consistently.
I can't immediately think of anything easy to put into action that would work for everyone in terms of regulating knowledge (I've toyed with things like having to beat a saving throw in order to use potions and scrolls, but think that would just be a pain). However, I'm not convinced it's required - I don't think every curse needs to affect everyone, so long as every class is affected by a number of curses (and hence there's some choice about which to lift).
On Tempus, @Harpagornis seems to prefer the idea of restricting weapon switching. I agree that's a better theme, but wonder if it could be taken a bit further. Vanilla BG1 put a heavy penalty on going into inventory during combat and that could be taken a bit further and entirely outlawed - so you could switch weapons in quick slots and use quick items, but not dive into your backpack to find the perfect item to deal with that unexpected basilisk ambush ...
Thanks a lot for your input @Blackraven and @Grond0! I updated the list and put in a new idea. There has to be done some work on "Bhaal" which enemies have to be killed. Which ones come to mind in SoA/ToB? And what about the number of days each part has to be done? What do you think which number of days are realistic? And should we only adress beating the final boss or each chapter? I agree that fleeing from hopeless battles is rather subjective so maybe one could only adress ambushes even though this might lead to lots of quick deaths if you get jumped on low levels... tricky! The no forged items is great and also added to the list... just take a look!
Cataclysm
Legacy of Bhaal, Solo, [No Reload]
Bhaal: You have to defeat a number of powerful enemies (Karoug, Demon Knight......)
Sune: Creatures are immune to charm and domination
Tempus: No inventory access during combat
Cyric: Potions can only be consumed during battle
Malar: Only one summon spell can be active in combat
Tymora: Random number of Hit Points on level up
Ilmater: No containers of any kind
Waukeen: No recharging of items in shops
Selune: You have to complete each part in a specific number of days
Gond: No forged items by Jegg Hillcarver, Cromwell & Cespenar
Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
Mask: Familiars cannot hide in inventory
The idea around Familiars could be pushed further saying that the Familiar has to stay in vision range of the Mage but i leave it to you if this goes too far as i am lacking experience with this class.
Tempus's curse of barring access to inventory during battles will be one of the hardest curses... It does fit Tempus though: "no fiddling about soldier, you fight!"
As for enemies for Bhaal's curse, I think it would be nice to focus on the games' most powerful optional enemies rather than chapter end fights since some of those fights are mandatory anway and they don't necessarily constitute the most challenging foes. My draft contains the following names:
This isn't necessarily a complete, but I think it's already quite a diverse roster in terms of character types and spread over the saga. Maybe we could extend it to ten names? For the sake of some flexibility I'd be in favor of allowing every character perhaps two passes
I have no suggestions for Selune's curse because I find it very difficult to determine what type of deadlines would be reasonable. I'd advocate leniency here, especially considering Bhaal's curse.
If you wanted the list extended a bit, what about Coldhearth in SoD and Layene in SoA as those parts look a bit light given their size?
While a time restriction sounds good in principle, I wonder if it would be a bit of a pain both to set it (remembering that there's normally quite a bit of variation available in the order you do things) and to monitor it while playing. An alternative might be some sort of restriction on resting - perhaps you can't do that during the night when the power of Selune's curse is at a peak?
The restriction on familiars may be a bit unbalancing. It doesn't apply to most classes, but for those that it does it hits far harder on beastmasters who can't use invisibility - and I would have thought that's a class that needs more love, not less.
Personally I like the idea of saying no retreat is allowed from ambushes (and I think that would be a better fit for Mask than restricting familiars). With the SCS changes (to ogre mages for instance) that certainly has the potential for plenty of challenge, but presumably anyone attempting this sort of madness is up for that .
(3) Charname is afflicted with 10 other divine curses out of the following 11:
- Sune: Creatures are immune to charm and domination
- Tempus: No inventory access during combat
- Cyric: Potions can only be consumed during battle
- Malar: Only one summon spell can be active in combat
- Tymora: Random number of Hit Points on level up
- Ilmater: No containers of any kind
- Waukeen: No recharging of items in shops
- Selune: Resting is only allowed in inns and in already cleared dungeon floors
- Gond: No forged items by Jegg Hillcarver, Cromwell & Cespenar
- Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
- Mask: No retreat is allowed from ambushes
BTW @AvidGamerFan, would be great to have you join in on the fun, but I'd understand if you passed because I think you already have two runs going (Angelo and another undocumented one).
The boss list looks fine! The question is how many of them can be skipped... maybe two or three? Killing all would kill lots of combos as for instance the Shadow Aspect is untouchable for anyone who lacks True Seeing!
No resting at night sounds okay but another idea would be that Selune prevents some form of magic at night...? Too harsh?
The familars restriction was only pointed at Mages/Sorcerers but if you have another idea how to balance them- you are welcome! I feel that there should be at least one more challenge that adresses Mages a bit more!
No fleeing from ambushes i like a lot but it would be quite brutal especially in the beginning!
The boss list looks fine! The question is how many of them can be skipped... maybe two or three? Killing all would kill lots of combos as for instance the Shadow Aspect is untouchable for anyone who lacks True Seeing!
No resting at night sounds okay but another idea would be that Selune prevents some form of magic at night...? Too harsh?
The familars restriction was only pointed at Mages/Sorcerers but if you have another idea how to balance them- you are welcome! I feel that there should be at least one more challenge that adresses Mages a bit more!
No fleeing from ambushes i like a lot but it would be quite brutal especially in the beginning!
You could say that one could be skipped from each game (4 in total). That may seem a lot, but that still leaves an awful lot of additional challenge to a run that will be very difficult anyway.
You could reduce the number of spell slots per day if you want to nerf arcane users a bit. I still like the idea of enforcing random spell learning as well. Also, I think you'll find that the other curses already help with the balance anyway. Restricting summons and charms reduce options for casters more and the saving throw fix makes a huge difference to them when dealing with stronger enemies.
Hmm, another issue with restricting any type of activity at night is that it's very easy to forget, especially inside buildings. Maybe we should change Selune's curse into a more general resting restriction? One rest per 24 hours? That would affect casters more than martials. It would also be tedious for trappers though.
As for the ambushes, I've seen posts by @Grondo stating that ambushes can be avoided by traveling during the day time only. I've never properly investigated how this exactly works. Does it mean that the entire trip, from departure till arrival has to take place between 6:00 and 22:00? Also I have no idea how ambushes work in BG2. Having to take on Suna Seni's gang almost right out of Chateau Irenicus with no good gear yet seems rather punishing for martial characters.
Hmm, another issue with restricting any type of activity at night is that it's very easy to forget, especially inside buildings. Maybe we should change Selune's curse into a more general resting restriction? One rest per 24 hours? That would affect casters more than martials. It would also be tedious for trappers though.
As for the ambushes, I've seen posts by @Grondo stating that ambushes can be avoided by traveling during the day time only. I've never properly investigated how this exactly works. Does it mean that the entire trip, from departure till arrival has to take place between 6:00 and 22:00? Also I have no idea how ambushes work in BG2. Having to take on Suna Seni's gang almost right out of Chateau Irenicus with no good gear yet seems rather punishing for martial characters.
I agree there's an issue with monitoring resting and I did consider restricting that to once per 24 hours - but that has its own monitoring issue and gets distorted by travel times. If you wanted to make things easier to monitor (but more painful) you could restrict resting to particular locations, like inns. That doesn't fit well with something like exploring Durlag's Tower though.
All ambushes are linked to specific times, which those who investigate the game's guts (which I don't) could use to plan journeys. I suspect my posts you're referring to are how to avoid bandit ambushes - south of the FAI they don't appear if you only travel during the day. While I've got a general idea of when travel is more dangerous elsewhere, I'm certainly nowhere close to being able to avoid any ambushes at all .
In BG2 the % chance of ambushes depends on the transition and the point in the game you make it. In some cases that can be 100% - for instance if you want to guarantee meeting Suna Seni you could go to the Graveyard and then journey to the Docks. I agree though that the early SCS ambushes will be extremely dangerous if you can't just skip them. However, if you're playing no-reload you will need to be exceptionally good to get that far anyway - and if you're not playing no-reload you can just try again ...
@Grond0, how about resting at inns and in already cleared inside areas (dungeon floors) only? No resting in the wilderness. That would force mages to be more careful with their spell-casting.
Thanks for the info about the ambushes. Mask's curse is one of the severest then...
Yeah... i like that idea a lot... resting only in inns and cleared areas @Blackraven! Ah, this should be a lot of fun... and pain... something @Grond0 should love!
@Grond0, how about resting at inns and in already cleared inside areas (dungeon floors) only? No resting in the wilderness. That would force mages to be more careful with their spell-casting.
Thanks for the info about the ambushes. Mask's curse is one of the severest then...
I'd be happy with that, though it is pretty severe. A ban on resting in the wilderness would result in significantly more travelling, so you would have the prospect of fatigued mages with no spells left trying to overcome a bunch of, e.g. hobgoblins. Item use might facilitate that on an occasional basis, but resource constraints would be likely to be a real problem if it's happening more regularly.
Alright, I've updated the terms of the challenge set out in my post above: at least 7 out of Bhaal's 10 optional enemies must be slain, and Selune's curse restricts resting to inns and cleared dungeon floors.
I've also rolled up a character, Helani the Fighter/Thief:According to this source (which cites WotC), the prefix Hel- means of the Gods, and the suffix -ani means bearer. Helani, cursebearer of the Gods, specializes in scimitars and shortbows.
Thanks to her being a warrior, Tempus bears her no ill will and allows her access to her inventory at all times. This should be pretty helpful even with Ilmater's curse limiting the scope of her boon from Tempus.
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Without a means of going invisible, Shagrat couldn't avoid fighting at the Bandit Camp - so didn't bother looking for an invitation there. The main strategy there was to use charm/dominate to persuade enemies to kill each other. The sheer number of enemies there made that hard as it was difficult to stick around long enough for any charmed enemies to be killed. As the archers ran out of ammunition though it became much easier and I'd already killed 7 or 8 on this trip when a nymph successfully confused Venkt. With him apparently out of spells and with few shots now being fired, I took the risk of sticking around. There were still around 15 enemies active at that point, but repeated mini-stands with spirits gradually whittled them down as Shagrat ran round and round the edge of the map. That took a long time and I was seriously worried that Venkt would recover his spells, but fortunately that didn't happen and he was the last to fall.
Although it was a struggle to get to the Cloakwood, the danger was not decreasing, but increasing. With no invisibility or free action available, the first ambush by SCS spiders was likely to be the last. However, once more Shagrat beat the odds - only having to run from ettercaps and wyverns. At the mine Kysus was right out of luck - failing his save on 3 call lightnings in a row and dying before the other 2 could strike.
After killing a number of guards in the mine, Shagrat dragged a lightning trap into Hareishan's room. After a couple of fighting retreats Hareishan then followed by herself to the top level. I thought that would be good and while a nymph and a charmed guard attacked the mage, Shagrat started dancing. Unfortunately, while he could not see Hareishan, the reverse didn't apply and a blindness and ray of enfeeblement sequencer came out of the blackness. The ray was particularly nasty as it left Shagrat unable to move (couldn't take off armor as he was in combat).
I haven't been able to play much, so I'll just leave a mini update here on
Erelyn, CG Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger (3)
Having reached Cleric level 7, Erelyn decided to test her upgraded skeletons a bit against some of the tougher foes. First she had them clear up the ankheg nest (as well as a few more surface ankhegs). This went very smoothly. Back in Beregost, she then ordered them to avenge Neera, i.e. to slay Silke, which they did diligently (as mentioned before).
Sterner opposition awaited the skeletons at Durlag's Tower, but Erelyn had a nice little stimulant for them (or at least two of the three skeleton warriors) in her spell repertoire, a level 4 IWD spell called Blood Rage. It gives the recipient +2 to hit, +3 to damage, +2 to Strength, +10 to maximum Hit Points, and +2 to movement rate. Being the recipient of the spell is not without risks: HPs of the target are concealed, HPs cannot be healed, and at the end of the spell's duration, the target becomes fatigued and their Strength drops to 3 for 2 turns. Of course on a couple of summons these risks aren't as serious as on Erelyn herself. I wonder if this spell can be put to good use on enemies as well. It would have to be a scenario where Erelyn can find a way to keep a targeted enemy busy for the first two turns, while staying safe herself and perhaps busying herself with other foes, and then finish the enemy off when they're fatigued and their strength down to 3. Maybe Sarevok could be meleed this way?
Anyway, three skeleton warriors buffed with Radial PfE and Chant, and two of them with Blood Rage quickly disposed of Kirinhale, the Ghost, and about fifteen ghasts.
Wolves east of the Temple of the Morning, Landrin's spiders, some hobgoblins at the FAI, and Joia's quest XP brought Erelyn to exactly 150k XP, and her last level-up, to Ranger level 7.
Erelyn has just had her skeletons slay Gnarl and Hairtooth to sell the gauntlets of dexterity, and of course she picked up the charisma tome. She might go for more loot to sell, so she can buy some potions and scrolls at temples. In terms of gear there isn't much available at this point of the game that she doesn't already have. Without a bag of holding, the usefulness of items like the boots of the north or the girdle of bluntness may well be too situational to merit a spot in Erelyn's inventory. She might go look for the bracers of archery simply because a single Thac0 point over the gauntlets of weapon expertise can be worthwhile at this stage. But soon enough she'll have to descend into the Nashkel Mines.
Executive Summary: After refusing to kill Solaufein, Angelo completes some miscellaneous Ust Natha quests.
Angelo's last encounter with Solaufein and Phaere had dangled some intriguing threads in front of him. There was more to their relationship than met the eye... and he was determined to find out the juicy details!
Once Solaufein had gone, Angelo went northwards and approached the svirfneblin leader. Taking their helmet back to Phaere in the tavern bagged 28,000 XP and a request to meet him in her chambers. "This sounds like a date," Angelo boasted to Felicity with a cheeky wink.
If Phaere had noticed his affections, she concealed it well. "I want you to kill Solaufein," she stated candidly. Angelo's face fell, but he bowed obediently nevertheless and made his way to the Male Fighters' Society. If she'd been stupid enough to accept the patrol leader's helmet, she'd probably fall for the same trick twice. Solaufein agreed and offered his drow piwafwi cloak as 'proof' of his demise. Angelo wondered why the drow were reluctant to attack Adalon given they had cloaks giving major bonuses against her draconic breath weapon, but figured it was probably the same logic that had Solaufein, a fighter, cherish a Stealth-enhancing item.
"By the way," Solaufein remarked on his way out, "Phaere and I used to be lovers." Angelo didn't react as he left, but breathed a sigh of relief once the coast was clear. If ordering their execution was how Phaere treated her partners, perhaps her inadvertent rejection of his advances had been a blessing in disguise.
Unfortunately, Phaere's tune had changed upon his return to the Female Fighters' Society, for the handover of Solaufein's piwafwi cloak earned more than another 30,000 XP. "Nice shoes," Phaere said, somehow biting her lip over the lollipop she had mysteriously started sucking.
"Actually, they're boots of speed," Angelo replied with a nervous giggle.
Phaere was not one to take a hint. "Is that a ring of human influence in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?"
"I'm a eunuch!" The lie tumbled out of his mouth before he could think it through, but Phaere seemed to buy it and lost interest almost immediately. Ordering him to meet with her and Matron Ardulace at the temple, Phaere threw away her lollipop and stormed out. Bullet dodged, Angelo returned the ring of human influence to his bag of holding (not a euphemism this time!) and followed close behind.
Confusing an adamantite smuggling beholder with an elder orb was an easy mistake to make - they looked the same if Phaere didn't look at her UI properly - but Matron Ardulace was having none of it. Still, she would settle for the blood of a kuo-toa prince or an illithid master brain if the eyestalk of an elder orb wasn't available. Angelo didn't mention he'd already acquired two items from this gruesome scavenger hunt, as there were a couple of quests he wanted to complete first... and since Matron Ardulace hadn't given him a time limit, this was the perfect time to do them!
so violently piqued that he threatened the merchant into giving it up for free. It didn't take long to see why, as Angelo had no sooner poked his head in the doorway than angry lich Deirex expelled him to... well, he didn't really know where.
What he did know was that Jarlaxle had worked out his surfacer credentials (Angelo wasn't sure how, but he swore the phrase, "The worst kept secret identity since Batman" was used) and was blackmailing him into obtaining some gems from Deirex's tower. Upon his return to Ust Natha, Angelo retreated to the shadows before entering the tower. His hope would surely be forlorn, as liches could see through illusions, but it would at least be a token gesture...
"Curious," Angelo murmured as he swept past, "why would a lich need to cast Oracle?" Disarming the dispel illusion trap on the western cupboard and the spear trap on the northern container, Angelo took the gems expecting to be transported back to Jarlaxle's pocket plane, but nothing happened. "Looks like Deirex has to be dead for this to trigger properly," Angelo surmised, readying his mace of disruption. Since the lich couldn't see through illusions, Angelo could sneak up and 'backstab' with his mace easily, using the lich's reluctance to move to sprint away and wait out any summons if the attempt was unsuccessful. In fact, he didn't have to wait too long.
This time, Jarlaxle's lair did beckon and the drow trickster relieved him of his hard earned gems. Angelo protested and Jarlaxle threw in two lots of 2,500 GP and 10,000 XP before returning him to Ust Natha. Nipping back into Deirex's tower, Angelo raided the downstairs containers for the armour of the viper +5 and visited the upstairs pool for a crossbow of affliction +4, making sure to take everything in one go since Felicity told him that once he'd left either floor, he could not return.
To maximise profits, Angelo cast Invisibility and used his newly obtained wardstone to disable House Jae'llat's defences. As before, this was a one-time offer, so Angelo made sure to snatch Water's Edge (a scimitar +3 in all but name), 4 emeralds and 45 pearls from the left cupboards, instantly disappearing to escape excess attention. For good measure, he pilfered 4 diamonds from the initially neutral Hindra Jae'llat (the only treasure he could steal) before disappearing and making his exit.
"A nasty piece of work," Felicity replied. "She will rope you into killing some worshippers, two otyughs and loads of jellies on the same southern platform as you killed that beholder. You'll have to kill a necromancer Relonar, a Ghaunadaur priest leader and a Ghaunadaur priest - none of whom have any good items - to complete her quest. And get this, she'll give you no reward - not even any XP - for doing her dirty work!"
"Sounds like a lot of work," Angelo replied as he activated Stealth mode. "Guess we'll be sneaking past her every time."
True to his word, Angelo sneaked past her and into the tavern to nose around. Although Szordran in the main room offered the chance to fight various beasts, it was Sondal in the western chamber that Angelo was after. Watching Lasaonar slaughter four warriors informed Angelo that Sondal's fighter did fire damage on every hit, which was enough incentive for further investigation. Saying he'd challenge later, Angelo realised that he couldn't steal Lasaonar's sword and would have to fight in the arena for it. However, if Angelo cast Mislead before challenging Lasaonar, his clone would remain inaccessible outside the arena while Lasaonar and an invisible Angelo were transported inside. Lasaonar quickly realised that there was no way that he could win this battle and surrendered his blade of searing +3, along with 30,000 XP.
Although Angelo could have defeated the other arena challengers (along with Szordran's beasts) using this method, he instead entered the marketplace, where he bought several supplies. While there, he saw a genie, Dola Fadoon, being repeatedly tortured by some drow overseers and begging someone to end his suffering. Seeing an opportunity to make 5,000 XP, Angelo and his hasted summons happily provided the killing blow. The untitled overseer handmaiden was not amused, but mentioning his affiliation with House Despana meant Angelo could extricate himself with 2,000 GP compensation... and 5,000 XP for 2,000 GP didn't seem a bad trade.
"It's a good job you actually got the killing blow," Felicity said as they left. "Otherwise, you'd have had to pay compensation without getting any XP. Still, at least you waited until you'd spoken to Matron Ardulace... otherwise you'd have had to pay 4,000 GP!"
Although he could have handed in either the kuo-toa prince's blood or the elder orb's eyestalk, Angelo's pride stayed his hand. Now that he had some time to spare, he could complete the gruesome triumvirate. It was time to raid the Eastern Tunnels.
Sorry to see Shagrat fall, @Grond0 . You're very brave to tackle the challenge without stealth! I think that shamans really do prove my point about the druid's main strength being the combination of their spells and fast progression... shamans only get the first of these and they seriously lag behind.
This is interesting. I never knew you could do this. Not that Angelo could have exploited it anyway, but it's useful to be aware of.
There is a failsafe method of taking out the flesh golems at High Hedge. Lure one to the central ring and stand beside Thalantyr. When the golem approaches, hop over onto the other side of Thalantyr. The golem will turn round and go the opposite way, since it cannot squeeze past Thalantyr to reach you. Load up with enough enchanted ammo and you're practically guaranteed the kill with the golem's rubbish AC.
Good one to keep in mind!
Would be really good if you could indeed post about the interesting events and maybe the main battles? I'm inclined to do the same for Erelyn, at least until she gets further into the game (second half of SoD, certain parts of SoA, and of course most of ToB).
Erelyn, CG Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger (4)
Like Su´rakka, Erelyn has reached the city of Baldur's Gate. With minimal effort I can add. She picked up the bracers of archery only to sell them when she learnt that Cleric/Rangers can't use them. She did the same with the boots of the north. Inventory management without a bag of holding is a fresh experience for me. In a way it makes things simpler.
Stealth and Sanctuary helped her find her way to Mulahey, whom she charmed with Algernon's Cloak and fed to his own kobolds. Nimbul and Tranzig were dealt with by Erelyn's trusty skeleton warriors. She infiltrated the bandit camp with Raiken's help and used Sanctuary to loot Tazok's chest. Two potions of insulation (Mulahey's boots had already been sold) protected her from the lightning bolt trap.
In Cloakwood she had her skeletons obtain the cloak of non-detection for her, navigated the spider area with a casting of Free Action (saving her a potion for a more urgent occasion), and she received a potion of invulnerability from Laskal. She had two ettercap ambushes and the Molkar ambush to run away from before she reached the Cloakwood Mine. There she provoked Drasus, immediately retreated so he wouldn't enrage or quaff a protective potion, then charmed him with Algernon's cloak. His buddies made him pay with his life for not making his saving throw. Inside, she only stopped to talk to Rill, to tell Yeslick to get out, and to pick up a few potions at the shrine, before she confronted Davaeorn.
Charmed the guard, and summoned her skeletons, and buffed everyone (including herself). The not so well thought out plan was to try and lure the battle horrors away, and have the guard and the skeletons attack Davaeorn, an aggressive approach. But whereas Erelyn reached one of the side rooms (taking 43 damage from triggering several traps in the process), her summons got stuck in Davaeorn's Stinking Cloud/Web sequencer. The skeletons did manage to injure Davaeorn when free, but the battle horrors duly dispatched her aides. Erelyn then waited for the guards to come in, and took them out with 16 bottle/wand fireballs. Managed to rest in Davaeorn's lair, had skeleton warriors injure him again, until Davaeorn teleported to his battle horrors and they once more dispatched the summons. She had to quaff a potion of magic blocking when her stealth failed during her scouting, and Davaeorn cast a Chromatic Orb at her. But once she'd located him, she just slowly burned his HPs away with 27 Flamestrikes from her wand (which never did more than 5 damage).
She's just spent almost all her gold on potions. There's more for her to buy, so she'll probably do a few of the more profitable quests, and pick up the good gear.
BTW Having used Algernon's Cloak a few times already and relied on skeleton warriors quite a bit ever since they became available, has made me wonder: has anyone tried their hand at this challenge, or even completed it, without ever using any charms or summons? Would be interesting to see what can be done playing this challenge solo in the strictest sense of the word. I haven't read the entire thread, so I may well have missed something. What classes/kits do you think might work for this?
There have been a fair number of attempts based on wizard slayer restrictions. Summons are the most typical way of dealing with things, but other alternatives are available. For instance bounty hunters can use stealth and loads of traps. I've played a melee sorcerer character and made quite a bit of progress in BG1, though I don't think I've ever completed it (doesn't mean it's not possible, but I always play no-reload and have a bad habit of taking one risk too many
Just as an aside I've tried this type of challenge in IWD and the monk instant kill ability allows pretty swift progress there (though grinding is necessary to get up to high level even with the bonus XP enabled).
1. Charname can neither charm nor summon any creatures (be it through spells or items). As I said I was interested in solo play in the strictest sense of the word, simply because so many characters (including my own) seem to rely on charms and summons.
2a. No bag of holding is allowed during any portion of the game, nor is storage of items in a chest or barrel somewhere (specific containers for ammo, gems, scrolls are ok). The idea is that the hero has a handful of items they use, much like the heroes in epic stories. Basically the inventory is the limit.
2b. Gear can be sold but cannot be bought back. This should prevent the player from turning shops into storage places where they come to buy back gear they need for a specific quest, and sell it again later. It also rules out item recharging, nerfing especially wands.
I like 2a and 2b because I think it makes the challenge accessible to a broader range of classes than the poverty challenge, while still limiting the player significantly. Also I think most poverty characters have relied on charms and summons a lot, which would be disallowed in this challenge. The limited access to some gear would be compensation for the prohibition on charms and summons.
This challenge is probably not as hard as the Bane of the Wizard Slayer, because in that challenge the player cannot really summon or charm either (Ras and Spectral Brand come to mind in BG2 as exceptions), and they can use/equip fewer items, although they can keep a larger amount of items. Again one advantage of this challenge would be that it seems give a broader range of classes/kits a chance than the Bane of the WS challenge.
Any other rules that would make this challenge more interesting, are most welcome. (Ideally without discriminating too much against certain classes).
@Harpagornis: With the God Challenge you mean a list of optional quests/enemies that have to be completed/slain? That would be a formidable challenge, and definitely interesting! Think of foes like Kahrk, Loup Garou, and Demon Knight in BGEE, the Shadow Aspect in SoD, and probably lots of hard bosses in BG2. It would definitely remove the main benefit of playing solo over party play: the freedom to cherry-pick your XP.
The Ultimate
Essential: Legacy of Bhaal, Solo, [No Reload]
Bhaal: You have to defeat a number of powerful enemies (Karoug, Demon Knight......)
Mystra: Creatures are immune to charm and domination
Tempus: Only weapons can be switched during combat
Cyric: Potions can only be consumed during combat
Malar: Only one summon spell can be active
Ilmater: Random number of Hit Points on level up
Gond: No inventory containers of any kind
Waukeen: No recharging of items in shops
Selune: You have to complete each part in a specific number of days (?)
Tempus could be changed into: You cannot flee from boss fights or something else while there is also the idea to ban the pause button even though i would hate that one cause of my bad reflexes.
What about turning this into a "Curses of the Gods" challenge, in which all of the above restrictions apply? However I'd like to allow each character one allied/patron deity, whose restriction does not apply to your character. That would allow for a degree of variety and make the challenge more replayable.
As for the specifics, I'll comment on your list.
- Bhaal's curse: perfect. We could compile a list of foes, and I'd be in favor of a threshold, say 75% or 80% of the listed names must be dealt with. This would, again, offer some variation and flexibility for every class.
- Mystra's curse I'd change into Sune's curse (charismatic goddess of beauty and love), but the no charm restriction is perfect.
- Tempus's curse: I like the not fleeing option better than the weapon switching option as Tempus literally commands his followers to never back away from a fight, although one is allowed to retreat in hopeless situations. This restriction would force one to take on ambushing parties, at least until you're sure you can't beat them.
- Cyric's curse: excellent
- Malar's curse: great
- Ilmater's curse: I like the restriction but would rename it Tymora's curse, after the deity of luck
- Gond's curse: great but imo better renamed as Ilmater's curse, as it imposes a more or less ascetic lifestyle.
- Waukeen's curse: excellent
- Selune's curse: great idea, every part of the game has to be completed within a set number of moons (one moon = 28 days).
This leaves Mystra and Gond out of your list. I'm sure some additional curses could be made up for them as well if you like them included. Ideas:
- Mystra's curse: uhm, no green scrolls? (Really rough with the undead in SoD that can see through invisibility, and with liches in BG2, PfM in ToB final fight)
- Gond's curse: no forged items by Jegg Hillcarver, Cromwell, Cespenar? (No impact in BGEE beyond the ankheg armor and the nymph cloak.)
Mystra regulates the advancement of magical knowledge, so how about saying scroll learning for arcane types has to be left random (no use of potions)? That would maybe help a little bit to rebalance away from arcane challengers (and banning green scrolls would do the exact opposite) and also give slightly more reason to be a generalist rather than specialist mage.
I agree that the current iteration of this new challenge favors casters, so some balancing is probably called for. If we were going to play with all but one of the curses at the same time, it would be nice if every curse affected each class to at least some degree. So maybe Mystra's curse could be adapted to that in some way? Maybe requiring the saving throws fix to be installed? That would affect casters more than martial characters, although the latter would also be affected to some extent.
Further, I'm unsure about Tempus's curse. Being allowed to run away when a battle becomes hopeless makes a lot of sense but it's a rather subjective criterion and thus a bit tricky to apply consistently.
I can't immediately think of anything easy to put into action that would work for everyone in terms of regulating knowledge (I've toyed with things like having to beat a saving throw in order to use potions and scrolls, but think that would just be a pain). However, I'm not convinced it's required - I don't think every curse needs to affect everyone, so long as every class is affected by a number of curses (and hence there's some choice about which to lift).
On Tempus, @Harpagornis seems to prefer the idea of restricting weapon switching. I agree that's a better theme, but wonder if it could be taken a bit further. Vanilla BG1 put a heavy penalty on going into inventory during combat and that could be taken a bit further and entirely outlawed - so you could switch weapons in quick slots and use quick items, but not dive into your backpack to find the perfect item to deal with that unexpected basilisk ambush ...
Cataclysm
Legacy of Bhaal, Solo, [No Reload]
Bhaal: You have to defeat a number of powerful enemies (Karoug, Demon Knight......)
Sune: Creatures are immune to charm and domination
Tempus: No inventory access during combat
Cyric: Potions can only be consumed during battle
Malar: Only one summon spell can be active in combat
Tymora: Random number of Hit Points on level up
Ilmater: No containers of any kind
Waukeen: No recharging of items in shops
Selune: You have to complete each part in a specific number of days
Gond: No forged items by Jegg Hillcarver, Cromwell & Cespenar
Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
Mask: Familiars cannot hide in inventory
The idea around Familiars could be pushed further saying that the Familiar has to stay in vision range of the Mage but i leave it to you if this goes too far as i am lacking experience with this class.
Tempus's curse of barring access to inventory during battles will be one of the hardest curses... It does fit Tempus though: "no fiddling about soldier, you fight!"
As for enemies for Bhaal's curse, I think it would be nice to focus on the games' most powerful optional enemies rather than chapter end fights since some of those fights are mandatory anway and they don't necessarily constitute the most challenging foes. My draft contains the following names:
- Kahrk (BGEE)
- Karoug (BGEE)
- Demon Knight (BGEE)
- Shadow Aspect (SoD)
- Firkraag (SoA)
- Kangaxx (SoA)
- Saladrex (ToB)
- Demogorgon (ToB)
This isn't necessarily a complete, but I think it's already quite a diverse roster in terms of character types and spread over the saga. Maybe we could extend it to ten names? For the sake of some flexibility I'd be in favor of allowing every character perhaps two passes
I have no suggestions for Selune's curse because I find it very difficult to determine what type of deadlines would be reasonable. I'd advocate leniency here, especially considering Bhaal's curse.
While a time restriction sounds good in principle, I wonder if it would be a bit of a pain both to set it (remembering that there's normally quite a bit of variation available in the order you do things) and to monitor it while playing. An alternative might be some sort of restriction on resting - perhaps you can't do that during the night when the power of Selune's curse is at a peak?
The restriction on familiars may be a bit unbalancing. It doesn't apply to most classes, but for those that it does it hits far harder on beastmasters who can't use invisibility - and I would have thought that's a class that needs more love, not less.
Personally I like the idea of saying no retreat is allowed from ambushes (and I think that would be a better fit for Mask than restricting familiars). With the SCS changes (to ogre mages for instance) that certainly has the potential for plenty of challenge, but presumably anyone attempting this sort of madness is up for that
I would further propose that as a child of Bhaal, Charname is naturally afflicted with Bhaal's curse, so that one cannot be opted out of. Thoughts?
The updated Cataclysm challenge would thus consist of the following elements:
(1) Legacy of Bhaal, Solo, [No Reload]
(2) Charname is afflicted with Bhaal's curse, meaning they have to defeat 7 out of the following 10 optional enemies:
- Kahrk (BGEE)
- Karoug (BGEE)
- Demon Knight (BGEE)
- Coldhearth (SoD)
- Shadow Aspect (SoD)
- Firkraag (SoA)
- Kangaxx (SoA)
- Layene (SoA)
- Saladrex (ToB)
- Demogorgon (ToB)
(3) Charname is afflicted with 10 other divine curses out of the following 11:
- Sune: Creatures are immune to charm and domination
- Tempus: No inventory access during combat
- Cyric: Potions can only be consumed during battle
- Malar: Only one summon spell can be active in combat
- Tymora: Random number of Hit Points on level up
- Ilmater: No containers of any kind
- Waukeen: No recharging of items in shops
- Selune: Resting is only allowed in inns and in already cleared dungeon floors
- Gond: No forged items by Jegg Hillcarver, Cromwell & Cespenar
- Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
- Mask: No retreat is allowed from ambushes
No resting at night sounds okay but another idea would be that Selune prevents some form of magic at night...? Too harsh?
The familars restriction was only pointed at Mages/Sorcerers but if you have another idea how to balance them- you are welcome! I feel that there should be at least one more challenge that adresses Mages a bit more!
No fleeing from ambushes i like a lot but it would be quite brutal especially in the beginning!
You could say that one could be skipped from each game (4 in total). That may seem a lot, but that still leaves an awful lot of additional challenge to a run that will be very difficult anyway.
You could reduce the number of spell slots per day if you want to nerf arcane users a bit. I still like the idea of enforcing random spell learning as well. Also, I think you'll find that the other curses already help with the balance anyway. Restricting summons and charms reduce options for casters more and the saving throw fix makes a huge difference to them when dealing with stronger enemies.
As for the ambushes, I've seen posts by @Grondo stating that ambushes can be avoided by traveling during the day time only. I've never properly investigated how this exactly works. Does it mean that the entire trip, from departure till arrival has to take place between 6:00 and 22:00? Also I have no idea how ambushes work in BG2. Having to take on Suna Seni's gang almost right out of Chateau Irenicus with no good gear yet seems rather punishing for martial characters.
I agree there's an issue with monitoring resting and I did consider restricting that to once per 24 hours - but that has its own monitoring issue and gets distorted by travel times. If you wanted to make things easier to monitor (but more painful) you could restrict resting to particular locations, like inns. That doesn't fit well with something like exploring Durlag's Tower though.
All ambushes are linked to specific times, which those who investigate the game's guts (which I don't) could use to plan journeys. I suspect my posts you're referring to are how to avoid bandit ambushes - south of the FAI they don't appear if you only travel during the day. While I've got a general idea of when travel is more dangerous elsewhere, I'm certainly nowhere close to being able to avoid any ambushes at all
In BG2 the % chance of ambushes depends on the transition and the point in the game you make it. In some cases that can be 100% - for instance if you want to guarantee meeting Suna Seni you could go to the Graveyard and then journey to the Docks. I agree though that the early SCS ambushes will be extremely dangerous if you can't just skip them. However, if you're playing no-reload you will need to be exceptionally good to get that far anyway - and if you're not playing no-reload you can just try again ...
Thanks for the info about the ambushes. Mask's curse is one of the severest then...
I'd be happy with that, though it is pretty severe. A ban on resting in the wilderness would result in significantly more travelling, so you would have the prospect of fatigued mages with no spells left trying to overcome a bunch of, e.g. hobgoblins. Item use might facilitate that on an occasional basis, but resource constraints would be likely to be a real problem if it's happening more regularly.
I've also rolled up a character, Helani the Fighter/Thief:
Thanks to her being a warrior, Tempus bears her no ill will and allows her access to her inventory at all times. This should be pretty helpful even with Ilmater's curse limiting the scope of her boon from Tempus.
Houses or abandoned caves in the wilderness could also be called safe places no?
7 out of 10 enemies or 1 skip per part? I could live (or die) with both!
But why only 10 out of 11 curses? Personally i want all of them... what about you @Grond0?