First some questions:
- Is there a risk of HPs gained being rounded down if you gain more than one level at the same time? This old post from the Ironworks forum suggests there is. Let's say an 18 CON Fighter/Thief gains one Fighter level, that would be (1d10+4)/2 = 2.5 - 7 HPs. 2.5 gets rounded up to 3, so basically 3-7 HPs. Upon gaining a thief level the amount of HPs would be (1d6 +4)/2 = 3 (2.5 rounded up) - 5 HPs. However if you gain more than one level at once, two halves will not become 2 whole HPs but just 1, if the info cited is correct. Killing Drizzt early on means the Fighter/Thief will gain at least two fighter levels and three thief levels. Four halves could then mean 2 HPs added rather than 4 if those levels were gained separately. If this is true I think I might restart yet again, to optimize HPs accumulated (or at least limit the impact of bad luck). Or I'll roll something else.
- Is it true that vanilla EE has nerfed warrior multi-classes in terms of HPs gained after warrior level 9, or is it my heavily modded install? Fighter multiclasses used to get 2 HPs per level up past level 9 (3/2 rounded up), something I remember and also mentioned in the old post I cited, but now they only get 1. That's 25 HPs a max level character loses out on.
On Cyric, I think I quite like the idea that not only potions but also spells are subject to the curse. However, caster types probably need their spell buffs harder. I mean a warrior can quaff a potion and still attack a few times in one round. The caster pretty much loses the whole round after casting their buff as they have fewer and less reliable physical output and have to wait till the next round to cast another spell. @Grond0 seemed to prefer the potions in combat only principle. What we could do is maintain the strict rule regarding potions and introduce a slightly less severe restriction for spell buffs. How about the following curse?
Cyric: Potion buffs may only be applied in combat; memorized buff spells may be cast out of combat if they last at least two hours.
Sorry about the berserker to be dualed to druid @Harpagornis, looks like a very solid option tbh. Maybe worth a second try. And @Grond0 condolences also for poor old Shagrat.
Mods could add some variety to the challenge, and make some conventional restrictions less unbearable by opening up new opportunities, as long as the mod in question doesn't seem too overpowered (Lord knows you can get some really crazy powers from mods).
@Grond0 has tried out the War Hulk kit in the past, and my first successful run was with an Archer fighter->mage dual-class. I've also thought about the viability of an Alchemist, which would be in an especially good position to tackle Belhifet due to level 11 grenades hitting automatically. Since then, I added a ton of new classes to the Expanded Classes mod. Some of them would struggle in this challenge (the Plasma Wizard and Seducer come to mind) but others have some viability (the Kensai paladin or Sky Dancer could be fun).
A Warlock could be fun, too, and there are some broader mods like Tome and Blood or Scales of Balance that could make things new. I don't know if we have any Spell Revisions and Item Revisions runs, and those mods in particular are really well-balanced--I think those mods would make the most sense for making the challenge newer (it would definitely pose a new learning curve).
From the Artisan's Kitpack, Arcane Archers' arrows will strike as +3 by level 10, which would be very convenient for Belhifet. A Storm Drummer would be hilarious due to its ability to deal damage with its song. The Deathsinger is a Shaman/Bard hybrid that can summon skeletons.
I also made a mod recently to revise the Slayer form and other Bhaalspawn powers that I'm pretty proud of. I think it's fairly balanced, and it does open up some wiggle room for classes: the BG1 innates are replaced with murder-themed spells, including a 3-round invisibility spell and a minor skeleton summons (the Slayer form itself gets really cool but BG2 isn't as big of a bottleneck for most classes).
@Blackraven I seemed to remember there was a detailed investigation of HP mechanics two or three years ago. In fact when I searched it looks like I did a bit of that myself. Anyway, it makes no difference whether you level up in little bits or lots of levels at once - all calculations are done independently for each additional level (though that's not the case for level 1 HPs for new characters).
Hit dice at character creation - whenever you do it - for multiclass characters are added together before dividing and rounding down. Hit dice gained during gameplay are divided and rounded down individually, no matter how many you gain at once.
Here's a more recent thread on the subject.
Yeah, everyone should feel free to use any kind of class mods regarding our challenge @semiticgoddess.
I awakened early in the morning realizing that i really dont like the the combination of Tempus and Cyric. Only being allowed to buff up with potions in combat but not having access to your inventory more or less forces any non-caster to take Cyric otherwise it will get really hard to prepare for some fights. Lets not forget that we still have lots of other curses working against us making this special challenge still a hell ride. So my idea is to change one of them to give Fighter and Thief classes a little bit more freedom which boon they want to choose.
Cyric could be changed into something like this:
Cyric: Potions from slain creatures will always break and cannot be collected
We could add scrolls to the list - or would that be too harsh again? Feedback like always is welcome!
@Harpagornis,shall we then restore your previous Cyric's curse to apply equally to potions and spells? Only spell and potion buffs with a duration of at least 2 hours can be applied outside combat. @Grond0 and @jmerry thanks for clearing that bit up. I still need to get used to non-maximized HPs, so it's good to know I haven't wasted any. @semiticgoddess, why not join the challenge with one of your fine mods?
I mentioned a new Fighter/Thief I had rolled, and I've been able to make a start with her, so here's a first report.
Ruby, Halfling Fighter/Thief (1)
Got lucky with a superb fourth roll, way higher than I was aiming for with this particular race and class combo. I went with a Halfling because of the much better thief skills thanks to her 19 DEX and because I wanted my character to be better at ranged fighting than Helani was. That's why she specializes in slings, in addition to scimitars. The lower strength will have to be compensated for, but as Ilmater's curse really stimulates the frequent use of potions, why not do so with strength potions?
18 CHA and 60 lock picks meant she left Candlekeep more experienced (even two locks in Obe's practice area were picked) and much richer than most Charnames. As usual everything except Shank and Carbos was dealt with.
She did a couple of easy XP quests in the Beregost-Nashkel areas (Marl, family heirloom, Noober, Hentold, Albert & Rufie), but nothing to raise reputation yet. She was thus ready to level up once in both her Fighter and her Thief classes but waited with that on the assumption that ambushes may be less likely to happen and if they happen, less dangerous, for a low level character. She managed to put and end to Drizzt's suffering at the fists of a gnoll, a nice change after two failed attempts, setting her up with ideal equipment.
She then started to work on her reputation, postponing any resting until it was 10 since she wanted the Bhaal heal rather than the drain (something I had messed up with Helani). That proved unnecessary as it would take her very long to get her first power, in fact I forced the dream by repeated rests.
During her early travels Ruby got ambushed once, by a group of bandit archers no less. I'm not sure if it was because of her low level (still 1/1) or just luck, but there were only five. I know they can attack in groups of ten as well. Knowing she had to draw blood and take (at least) one hit, she immediately leveled up to level 4/4, gaining 27 HPs out of a maximum of 36. She then ran toward the area border to prevent that all four could take a shot at her. One of them critted her, so she quaffed a healing potion, and then charged the nearest of her foes. Taking advantage of his AC penalty for wielding a bow in melee, she managed to injure him and so earned her right to leave the area.
The XP from bringing Brun his dead son made her reach Thief level 5, and she got the full 5 HPs there for a total of 44 at level 4/5, so that was nice. She helped Tenya after landing a backstab on her, pickpocketed both Dushai (in one attempt) and a now hostile Algernon (two attempts), and she stabbed a hobgoblin to death for the boots of stealth while the Flaming Fist dispatched the ogrillon that was carrying Roe's letter to Mirianne.
All available quests that don't involve any fighting have been completed except Ulcaster's tome and Tamah. Completing those will push her XP to 28k. After Helani's somewhat poor performance with Korax in Mutamin's garden, I think Ruby should first visit Durlag's Tower and deal with the basilisks there using the green scroll. If she gets an oil of speed in the tower, she may use that and a strength potion to take on Meilum before moving on to Mutamin's garden. The better her combat stats the likelier she'll manage to clear at least all the basilisks and Mutamin himself. (I can accept Kirian's gang being too much to handle at this point.)
She was thus ready to level up once in both her Fighter and her Thief classes but waited with that on the assumption that ambushes may be less likely to happen and if they happen, less dangerous, for a low level character.
...
During her early travels Ruby got ambushed once, by a group of bandit archers no less. I'm not sure if it was because of her low level (still 1/1) or just luck, but there were only five. I know they can attack in groups of ten as well.
Level doesn't matter for waylays. I'm not sure where the game keeps the information on probabilities and which encounter area to use, but which ambush you get is entirely determined by that area's script.
As for the bandit archers - there are two bandit ambushes. Five bandits in the early evening, or ten bandits later.
What level does matter for ... random spawn points within areas. You get more monsters with a higher-leveled party. But since it counts the total levels in the party, a solo player is stuck at the low end of the scale. You get one random ankheg instead of the three or four a high-level party would get.
Thanks once more mr Baldurpedia@jmerry for the insight, very helpful!
In any case, Ruby's adventure too was a short-lived one. She survived another bandit ambush (this time with ten of them), then defeated the basilisks at Durlag's Tower, and got poor HP rolls for the two levels she gained (6 out of a maximum of 12, or 3 out of 9 if you discount the free HPs from high CON), On the way back to Beregost Ruby ran into a kobold ambush. She took several hits from kobold archers, and was poisoned by a kobold guard. Unfortunately she wasn't as good at dishing out damage as she was at incurring it.
I was a bit too optimistic about her ability to hit one of the archers. Next time we'll just throw away an oil of fiery burning and be done with it.
What's next then? A Beastmaster? Did we agree they get to lift two curses @Harpagornis?
In any case, Ruby's adventure too was a short-lived one. She survived another bandit ambush (this time with ten of them), then defeated the basilisks at Durlag's Tower, and got poor HP rolls for the two levels she gained (6 out of a maximum of 12, or 3 out of 9 if you discount the free HPs from high CON), On the way back to Beregost Ruby ran into a kobold ambush. She took several hits from kobold archers, and was poisoned by a kobold guard. Unfortunately she wasn't as good at dishing out damage as she was at incurring it.
I was a bit too optimistic about her ability to hit one of the archers. Next time we'll just throw away an oil of fiery burning and be done with it.
Hard luck @Blackraven. Dealing with those ambushes is one reason I would prioritize getting LMD as a first Bhaalpower (may also help with getting XP for enemies being attacked by neutrals). Killing Imoen (you'll have to hit her at least twice to trigger the change from a recruitable to a 'dead' character before killing her) for her wand gives you a back-up source of damage without having to risk staying around archers too long.
Hard luck @Blackraven. Dealing with those ambushes is one reason I would prioritize getting LMD as a first Bhaalpower (may also help with getting XP for enemies being attacked by neutrals). Killing Imoen (you'll have to hit her at least twice to trigger the change from a recruitable to a 'dead' character before killing her) for her wand gives you a back-up source of damage without having to risk staying around archers too long.
A very good point, and one that I shall keep in mind for my next character. Have you started over with Shagrat or Wisp?
I think we have to get clarity about Cyric and Tempus. Forcing Fighters and Thiefs to pick Tempus just to survive for instance Big B is not satisfying. The actual rules are:
- Tempus: No inventory access during combat
- Cyric: Potions can only be consumed during battle
I am open for any change. As Tempus is the Lord of Battle we maybe could address this one more. Maybe we could say that in each battle the character can only change a specific inventory item or a number of items. If we want real chaos we could let the player roll a dice which category can be switched if he wishes so but that would make things really complicated.
EDIT1: We could also add arcane scrolls to Cyric preventing for instances some out of combat skull trap stacking.
EDIT2: Another idea for Tempus: You cannot attack any friendly or neutral creature.
This would mean... no Algerons Cloak... no early Ring of Freedom... and so on...
Hmm it would be good to set the rules straight, because we keep redefining them. Not that that's surprising at this early stage. I'd like to suggest the following:
- Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible after drawing blood from an enemy and absorbing at least one attack (currently Mask but fits Tempus better).
- Cyric: Potion and spell buffs with a duration of less than 2 hours may only be applied during combat
- Mask: The inventory may be accessed during combat, for example to use consumables, but not to switch items. This way inventory access would still be limited in a meaningful way, and one that affects both martials (who may want to switch helmets, shields, ammo) and casters who may not have helmets or shields to equip but spell scrolls or wands they might like to put in one of their quick-slots.
EDIT2: Another idea for Tempus: You cannot attack any friendly or neutral creature.
This would mean... no Algerons Cloak... no early Ring of Freedom... and so on...
I kind of like this one, as it would significantly impact game play. Maybe as an additional curse from one of the LG deities? Tyr?
Yeah... good idea @Blackraven, i like this! I think that redefining rules at this early stage is a normal process and we are all flexible enough to adapt to them. Hopefully!
- Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible after drawing blood from an enemy and absorbing at least one attack
- Cyric: Potion- and spellbuffs with a duration of less than 2 hours may only be applied during combat
- Mask: The inventory may be accessed during combat to use consumables but not to switch items
- Tyr: You cannot attack any friendly or neutral creature
This gives Fighter and Thieves much more options to adapt but prevents over-pre-buffing while also banning some very powerful early game items. This also means that Healing Potions can now be used anytime - no? Now its up to @Grond0! Can you live - or die - with that?
In addition Charname is afflicted with 11 divine curses out of the following 12.
- Cyric: Potion- and spellbuffs with a duration of less than 2 hours may only be applied during combat
- Gond: No forged items by Jegg Hillcarver, Cromwell & Cespenar
- Ilmater: No containers of any kind
- Malar: Except for Beast Masters only one summon spell can be active in combat
- Mask: The inventory may be accessed during combat to use consumables but not to switch items
- Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
- Selune: Resting is only allowed in inns and cleared dungeon floors. In the wilderness it only works near houses or in caves
- Sune: All creatures are immune to charm and domination
- Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible after drawing blood from an enemy and absorbing at least one attack
- Tymora: Random number of Hit Points on level up
- Tyr: You cannot attack any friendly or neutral creature
- Waukeen: No recharging of items in shops
A very good point, and one that I shall keep in mind for my next character. Have you started over with Shagrat or Wisp?
Things are still rather busy at work, but I did make some progress with Wisp in an early morning session - getting close to the point he will dual to fighter.
Here is the updated and complete list. Lets hope @Grond0 nods to this.
What about enemies from the boss list and the number of skips?
I'm easy - I can die with anything .
Edit: mind you, it's too late for several of the neutrals in my current run, but I'm sure they can console themselves with the thought there will always be another one ...
I figured if anyone would know it would be here. I just finished a solo SCS-Insane (Non LoB for now) run as a monk, and I'm wondering about the fesability of the same for LoB.
It's not been difficult until the Sarevok fight, except for no access to oils of speed
Monk Sarevok non-LoB SCS-Insane strategy was: Lure everyone into top right corner, wait for protections to expire while making a cup of tea, nuke with necklace of missiles. Skeleton warriors either lured and punched + protection from undead
Problem being monks can't use oil of speed so Sarevok is almost too fast to kite. If there was some way to hold him up then wand of heavens could take him down no problem but as is he will sometimes get some nasty hits in while waiting for the wand to cast requiring invisibility + healing. Wand of heavens + many invisibility potions & sandthief charges works, along with running round in circles, round the backs of the statues and hitting stealth where possible, but stealth only works around 70% of the time though at level 8 even if you can lose line of site.
Basically I am groaning at the thought of trying this LoB, I was wondering if anyone had any LoB Solo SCS-Insane monk ideas for Sarevok..., or if anyone has done it?
The only thing I can think of at the moment is as above - but with 4 necklace of missiles for 100 fireballs, rather than just one, and an extra wand of the heavens for 200 charges.
My main problem would be a source of lots of invisibility potions... are there any good sources in BG1:EE?
Other question would be wondering if anyone could think of an off the top of the top of their head strategy for Behlefit on insane, LoB or not (+++ invisibility potion hit and run with longsword + 3?) (Sling + Bullets of Darkness?)
@Grond0, great to hear you're down for whatever @Harpagornis and I come up with And nice to know Wisp is back in action!
I have a new character as well who, like yours, took off before Tyr's curse came about thankfully. I might post later tonight if work allows it.
@alice_ashpool, welcome to the forums! Take a look @histamiini's Dark Moon Monk, Jin, starting here. Would be really nice if you could let us know how you fare!
I figured if anyone would know it would be here. I just finished a solo SCS-Insane (Non LoB for now) run as a monk, and I'm wondering about the fesability of the same for LoB.
It's not been difficult until the Sarevok fight, except for no access to oils of speed
Monk Sarevok non-LoB SCS-Insane strategy was: Lure everyone into top right corner, wait for protections to expire while making a cup of tea, nuke with necklace of missiles. Skeleton warriors either lured and punched + protection from undead
Problem being monks can't use oil of speed so Sarevok is almost too fast to kite. If there was some way to hold him up then wand of heavens could take him down no problem but as is he will sometimes get some nasty hits in while waiting for the wand to cast requiring invisibility + healing. Wand of heavens + many invisibility potions & sandthief charges works, along with running round in circles, round the backs of the statues and hitting stealth where possible, but stealth only works around 70% of the time though at level 8 even if you can lose line of site.
Basically I am groaning at the thought of trying this LoB, I was wondering if anyone had any LoB Solo SCS-Insane monk ideas for Sarevok..., or if anyone has done it?
The only thing I can think of at the moment is as above - but with 4 necklace of missiles for 100 fireballs, rather than just one, and an extra wand of the heavens for 200 charges.
My main problem would be a source of lots of invisibility potions... are there any good sources in BG1:EE?
Other question would be wondering if anyone could think of an off the top of the top of their head strategy for Behlefit on insane, LoB or not (+++ invisibility potion hit and run with longsword + 3?) (Sling + Bullets of Darkness?)
@alice_ashpool it sounds like you've got the basics already for Sarevok. After his acolytes are dead, he is vulnerable to fireballs, so you can do quite a bit of damage like that if you want.
A couple of things that might help you finish him off once you're out of necklace charges and potions:
- the ring of energy is more efficient than wand of heavens (as he has no magic resistance) if you want to keep using items.
- make use of potions of perception and potions of power. Multiple uses will push stealth up to where hiding is almost guaranteed and invisibility is only used on the rare occasion that stealth fails. Draw him over to one of the pillars and attack where you're already only just in sight - you can then retreat a step and try and hide again before he can move. As with all stealth users of course, don't attack directly from stealth, but do something to start the cooldown timer (like activating force attack, though not using it) and only actually attack at the point you can immediately restealth once out of sight.
By the way, in the unmodded game invisibility potions are pretty limited. More enemies may get them with something like SCS, but killing an enemy before they use it while playing solo LoB is not easy.
Talking about my ability to die, I just did. Not so much a lack of concentration this time, but just taking one risk too many. I decided to take Samuel back to the FAI where I would have got both the final XP to dual and boosted reputation to 20. I hit a big hobgoblin ambush south of the Carnival, but escaped into stealth. However, with the timer ticking on Samuel's health I didn't rest there and paid the price when a bunch of bandits appeared. My 100 each in MS and HiS this time proved insufficient and the arrows hit before I could shift into shadow step ...
The good thing about that is I can restart using the revised set of rules. With quite a few encounters now ruled out, delayed or revised (looking at you Drizzt), strategy will have to be significantly different this time I think .
Incidentally, just thinking about my next run with Wisp and how that would be affected by the restriction on neutral characters. Would it be reasonable to say that attempting to pickpocket someone would not count as an attack - if so that would be another potential reason to play thieves rather than another class?
Sorry about Wisp @Grond0. This challenge really breathes new life into those ambushes (and out of Charnames)...
I'm going to be doubly careful with my Beastmaster, knowing full well that I may not get to kill Drizzt again in this challenge, or at least not when it's most convenient.
As for thieving, I'd agree that pickpocketing isn't attacking. And I welcome the incentive to play thieves.
@alice_ashpool, welcome to the forums! Take a look @histamiini's Dark Moon Monk, Jin, starting here. Would be really nice if you could let us know how you fare!
thanks, that @histamiini run is very impressive, thanks - I knew someone would have attempted it, and yeah... Behlefit.
One question would be about using Durlag's Goblet without being able to wear Kiel's Helm, but tbh I've never tried it - Didn't bother picking up the goblet for my monk because of the lack of helm. But i'll give it a go and do some experimenting.
@Grond0 thanks, i was not optimized for Sarevok at all, so its reassuring that it was still possible. I had run out of Necklace of Missile Charges shortly after killing sarevok's squad, so yeah, with more offscreen damage to Sarevok would have been much easier. Likewise for the potions, I hadn't bothered to bring much more than some invisibility and regeneration potions.
I had not even thought about the ring of energy and didn't pick it up this run. For my LoB attempt I will give it a go.
The manipulation of enemy movement via attacks is useful too, its not something I've dived into.
Okay... i think we are going... and dying... into the right direction, making ambushes finally what they should be for any starting character: Deadly! Thanks for all your input @Blackraven and @Grond0 without you this would not have come to life!
Maybe we will have to rework more things but for now the challenge looks "quite playable". Oh, i can also contribute another death as Lilli the Human Berserker got killed when facing an Ogre Mage ambush. Already at level 4 and with 6 Healing Potions i thougt this should be doable but the Mage played it smart waiting for his Dire Charm cast until Berserker Stance ended. With his Mirror Images still up i could not hit him and - even worse - i was too slow using a Potion of Clarity to protect against the incoming spell. GG again!
I will soon roll a new character adapting to the new rules. Sorry to hear about another death @Grond0!
Good luck for your Beast Master @Blackraven - i really like this class! When do you intend to dual?
EDIT: Pick Pocketing does count as attacking in my opinion @Grondo so - yes - this favours Thieves!
I just finished a solo SCS-Insane (Non LoB for now) run as a monk, and I'm wondering about the fesability of the same for LoB.
It's not been difficult until the Sarevok fight, except for no access to oils of speed
Monk Sarevok non-LoB SCS-Insane strategy was: Lure everyone into top right corner, wait for protections to expire while making a cup of tea, nuke with necklace of missiles. Skeleton warriors either lured and punched + protection from undead
.
.
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Basically I am groaning at the thought of trying this LoB, I was wondering if anyone had any LoB Solo SCS-Insane monk ideas for Sarevok..., or if anyone has done it?
The only thing I can think of at the moment is as above - but with 4 necklace of missiles for 100 fireballs, rather than just one, and an extra wand of the heavens for 200 charges.
This is similar to most LoB strategies here. Don't forget about potions of explosions and oils of fiery burning. They'll give some extra kick once Sarevok's fire protection is down. I think you can escape the skellies by dumping them in a corner with Stealth... Protection from Undead scrolls are very useful in SoD, so I'd hold onto as many as possible.
My main problem would be a source of lots of invisibility potions... are there any good sources in BG1:EE?
Not in BG1, but if you hide and wait for a while around the siege of Dragonspear Castle, you can loot the bodies (use right-click and pick up form your invetory to maintain Stealth/invisibility) for loads of potions.
Other question would be wondering if anyone could think of an off the top of the top of their head strategy for Behlefit on insane, LoB or not (+++ invisibility potion hit and run with longsword + 3?) (Sling + Bullets of Darkness?)
Champion's Strength scrolls, potions of power and potions of heroism stack. Buy loads from Belegarm, (along with potions of clarity to stop demon fear and charms), then beat Belhifet up! Monks have a harder time with this than most, but his other demon's can't see through invisibility, so you can use this to escape some unwanted attention (as you point out!). Good luck!
EDIT: Pick Pocketing does count as attacking in my opinion @Grondo so - yes - this favours Thieves!
Consider me mildly confused . Your point about this favouring thieves would suggest you don't count pick pocketing as attacking - so might there be a not missing in the above statement?
Okay... i should have known that you are up for this @Grond0! Pick Pocket: Yes! Attacking after fail: No! Or would you be more pleased if we ban pick pocketing?
What's the criteria for determining if you can attack someone that starts off neutral then? In some cases any interaction will result in them turning hostile, but in others you have to choose a particular conversation response to do that - are you entitled to try and make someone hostile in that way?
Comments
Maybe @Blackraven can give us some feedback on Cyric!
Oh, dear... another quick death... yeah the greater Basilisks can easily get ouf the stunlock with saves fixed...
- Is there a risk of HPs gained being rounded down if you gain more than one level at the same time? This old post from the Ironworks forum suggests there is. Let's say an 18 CON Fighter/Thief gains one Fighter level, that would be (1d10+4)/2 = 2.5 - 7 HPs. 2.5 gets rounded up to 3, so basically 3-7 HPs. Upon gaining a thief level the amount of HPs would be (1d6 +4)/2 = 3 (2.5 rounded up) - 5 HPs. However if you gain more than one level at once, two halves will not become 2 whole HPs but just 1, if the info cited is correct. Killing Drizzt early on means the Fighter/Thief will gain at least two fighter levels and three thief levels. Four halves could then mean 2 HPs added rather than 4 if those levels were gained separately. If this is true I think I might restart yet again, to optimize HPs accumulated (or at least limit the impact of bad luck). Or I'll roll something else.
- Is it true that vanilla EE has nerfed warrior multi-classes in terms of HPs gained after warrior level 9, or is it my heavily modded install? Fighter multiclasses used to get 2 HPs per level up past level 9 (3/2 rounded up), something I remember and also mentioned in the old post I cited, but now they only get 1. That's 25 HPs a max level character loses out on.
On Cyric, I think I quite like the idea that not only potions but also spells are subject to the curse. However, caster types probably need their spell buffs harder. I mean a warrior can quaff a potion and still attack a few times in one round. The caster pretty much loses the whole round after casting their buff as they have fewer and less reliable physical output and have to wait till the next round to cast another spell.
@Grond0 seemed to prefer the potions in combat only principle. What we could do is maintain the strict rule regarding potions and introduce a slightly less severe restriction for spell buffs. How about the following curse?
Cyric: Potion buffs may only be applied in combat; memorized buff spells may be cast out of combat if they last at least two hours.
Sorry about the berserker to be dualed to druid @Harpagornis, looks like a very solid option tbh. Maybe worth a second try. And @Grond0 condolences also for poor old Shagrat.
@Grond0 has tried out the War Hulk kit in the past, and my first successful run was with an Archer fighter->mage dual-class. I've also thought about the viability of an Alchemist, which would be in an especially good position to tackle Belhifet due to level 11 grenades hitting automatically. Since then, I added a ton of new classes to the Expanded Classes mod. Some of them would struggle in this challenge (the Plasma Wizard and Seducer come to mind) but others have some viability (the Kensai paladin or Sky Dancer could be fun).
A Warlock could be fun, too, and there are some broader mods like Tome and Blood or Scales of Balance that could make things new. I don't know if we have any Spell Revisions and Item Revisions runs, and those mods in particular are really well-balanced--I think those mods would make the most sense for making the challenge newer (it would definitely pose a new learning curve).
From the Artisan's Kitpack, Arcane Archers' arrows will strike as +3 by level 10, which would be very convenient for Belhifet. A Storm Drummer would be hilarious due to its ability to deal damage with its song. The Deathsinger is a Shaman/Bard hybrid that can summon skeletons.
I also made a mod recently to revise the Slayer form and other Bhaalspawn powers that I'm pretty proud of. I think it's fairly balanced, and it does open up some wiggle room for classes: the BG1 innates are replaced with murder-themed spells, including a 3-round invisibility spell and a minor skeleton summons (the Slayer form itself gets really cool but BG2 isn't as big of a bottleneck for most classes).
Here's a more recent thread on the subject.
I awakened early in the morning realizing that i really dont like the the combination of Tempus and Cyric. Only being allowed to buff up with potions in combat but not having access to your inventory more or less forces any non-caster to take Cyric otherwise it will get really hard to prepare for some fights. Lets not forget that we still have lots of other curses working against us making this special challenge still a hell ride. So my idea is to change one of them to give Fighter and Thief classes a little bit more freedom which boon they want to choose.
Cyric could be changed into something like this:
Cyric: Potions from slain creatures will always break and cannot be collected
We could add scrolls to the list - or would that be too harsh again? Feedback like always is welcome!
@Grond0 and @jmerry thanks for clearing that bit up. I still need to get used to non-maximized HPs, so it's good to know I haven't wasted any.
@semiticgoddess, why not join the challenge with one of your fine mods?
I mentioned a new Fighter/Thief I had rolled, and I've been able to make a start with her, so here's a first report.
Ruby, Halfling Fighter/Thief (1)
Got lucky with a superb fourth roll, way higher than I was aiming for with this particular race and class combo. I went with a Halfling because of the much better thief skills thanks to her 19 DEX and because I wanted my character to be better at ranged fighting than Helani was. That's why she specializes in slings, in addition to scimitars. The lower strength will have to be compensated for, but as Ilmater's curse really stimulates the frequent use of potions, why not do so with strength potions?
18 CHA and 60 lock picks meant she left Candlekeep more experienced (even two locks in Obe's practice area were picked) and much richer than most Charnames. As usual everything except Shank and Carbos was dealt with.
She did a couple of easy XP quests in the Beregost-Nashkel areas (Marl, family heirloom, Noober, Hentold, Albert & Rufie), but nothing to raise reputation yet. She was thus ready to level up once in both her Fighter and her Thief classes but waited with that on the assumption that ambushes may be less likely to happen and if they happen, less dangerous, for a low level character. She managed to put and end to Drizzt's suffering at the fists of a gnoll, a nice change after two failed attempts, setting her up with ideal equipment.
She then started to work on her reputation, postponing any resting until it was 10 since she wanted the Bhaal heal rather than the drain (something I had messed up with Helani). That proved unnecessary as it would take her very long to get her first power, in fact I forced the dream by repeated rests.
During her early travels Ruby got ambushed once, by a group of bandit archers no less. I'm not sure if it was because of her low level (still 1/1) or just luck, but there were only five. I know they can attack in groups of ten as well. Knowing she had to draw blood and take (at least) one hit, she immediately leveled up to level 4/4, gaining 27 HPs out of a maximum of 36. She then ran toward the area border to prevent that all four could take a shot at her. One of them critted her, so she quaffed a healing potion, and then charged the nearest of her foes. Taking advantage of his AC penalty for wielding a bow in melee, she managed to injure him and so earned her right to leave the area.
The XP from bringing Brun his dead son made her reach Thief level 5, and she got the full 5 HPs there for a total of 44 at level 4/5, so that was nice. She helped Tenya after landing a backstab on her, pickpocketed both Dushai (in one attempt) and a now hostile Algernon (two attempts), and she stabbed a hobgoblin to death for the boots of stealth while the Flaming Fist dispatched the ogrillon that was carrying Roe's letter to Mirianne.
All available quests that don't involve any fighting have been completed except Ulcaster's tome and Tamah. Completing those will push her XP to 28k. After Helani's somewhat poor performance with Korax in Mutamin's garden, I think Ruby should first visit Durlag's Tower and deal with the basilisks there using the green scroll. If she gets an oil of speed in the tower, she may use that and a strength potion to take on Meilum before moving on to Mutamin's garden. The better her combat stats the likelier she'll manage to clear at least all the basilisks and Mutamin himself. (I can accept Kirian's gang being too much to handle at this point.)
As for the bandit archers - there are two bandit ambushes. Five bandits in the early evening, or ten bandits later.
What level does matter for ... random spawn points within areas. You get more monsters with a higher-leveled party. But since it counts the total levels in the party, a solo player is stuck at the low end of the scale. You get one random ankheg instead of the three or four a high-level party would get.
In any case, Ruby's adventure too was a short-lived one. She survived another bandit ambush (this time with ten of them), then defeated the basilisks at Durlag's Tower, and got poor HP rolls for the two levels she gained (6 out of a maximum of 12, or 3 out of 9 if you discount the free HPs from high CON), On the way back to Beregost Ruby ran into a kobold ambush. She took several hits from kobold archers, and was poisoned by a kobold guard. Unfortunately she wasn't as good at dishing out damage as she was at incurring it.
What's next then? A Beastmaster? Did we agree they get to lift two curses @Harpagornis?
Hard luck @Blackraven. Dealing with those ambushes is one reason I would prioritize getting LMD as a first Bhaalpower (may also help with getting XP for enemies being attacked by neutrals). Killing Imoen (you'll have to hit her at least twice to trigger the change from a recruitable to a 'dead' character before killing her) for her wand gives you a back-up source of damage without having to risk staying around archers too long.
A very good point, and one that I shall keep in mind for my next character. Have you started over with Shagrat or Wisp?
- Tempus: No inventory access during combat
- Cyric: Potions can only be consumed during battle
I am open for any change. As Tempus is the Lord of Battle we maybe could address this one more. Maybe we could say that in each battle the character can only change a specific inventory item or a number of items. If we want real chaos we could let the player roll a dice which category can be switched if he wishes so but that would make things really complicated.
EDIT1: We could also add arcane scrolls to Cyric preventing for instances some out of combat skull trap stacking.
EDIT2: Another idea for Tempus: You cannot attack any friendly or neutral creature.
This would mean... no Algerons Cloak... no early Ring of Freedom... and so on...
Sorry for all the ideas...
- Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible after drawing blood from an enemy and absorbing at least one attack (currently Mask but fits Tempus better).
- Cyric: Potion and spell buffs with a duration of less than 2 hours may only be applied during combat
- Mask: The inventory may be accessed during combat, for example to use consumables, but not to switch items. This way inventory access would still be limited in a meaningful way, and one that affects both martials (who may want to switch helmets, shields, ammo) and casters who may not have helmets or shields to equip but spell scrolls or wands they might like to put in one of their quick-slots.
Edit:
I kind of like this one, as it would significantly impact game play. Maybe as an additional curse from one of the LG deities? Tyr?
- Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible after drawing blood from an enemy and absorbing at least one attack
- Cyric: Potion- and spellbuffs with a duration of less than 2 hours may only be applied during combat
- Mask: The inventory may be accessed during combat to use consumables but not to switch items
- Tyr: You cannot attack any friendly or neutral creature
This gives Fighter and Thieves much more options to adapt but prevents over-pre-buffing while also banning some very powerful early game items. This also means that Healing Potions can now be used anytime - no? Now its up to @Grond0! Can you live - or die - with that?
What about enemies from the boss list and the number of skips?
The Cataclysm
Charname is afflicted with Bhaal's curse, meaning they have to defeat the following enemies. In each part one enemy can be skipped.
- Kahrk (BGEE)
- Karoug (BGEE)
- Demon Knight (BGEE)
- Aec´Letec (BGEE)
- Coldhearth (SoD)
- Morentherene (SoD)
- Neothelid (SoD)
- Shadow Aspect (SoD)
- Firkraag (SoA)
- Kangaxx (SoA)
- Layene (SoA)
- Saladrex (ToB)
- Demogorgon (ToB)
In addition Charname is afflicted with 11 divine curses out of the following 12.
- Cyric: Potion- and spellbuffs with a duration of less than 2 hours may only be applied during combat
- Gond: No forged items by Jegg Hillcarver, Cromwell & Cespenar
- Ilmater: No containers of any kind
- Malar: Except for Beast Masters only one summon spell can be active in combat
- Mask: The inventory may be accessed during combat to use consumables but not to switch items
- Mystra: Each creature gains the saving throw fix
- Selune: Resting is only allowed in inns and cleared dungeon floors. In the wilderness it only works near houses or in caves
- Sune: All creatures are immune to charm and domination
- Tempus: Except for Wizard Slayers retreats from ambushes are only possible after drawing blood from an enemy and absorbing at least one attack
- Tymora: Random number of Hit Points on level up
- Tyr: You cannot attack any friendly or neutral creature
- Waukeen: No recharging of items in shops
Thirteen curses so far... not bad... or good...
Things are still rather busy at work, but I did make some progress with Wisp in an early morning session - getting close to the point he will dual to fighter.
I'm easy - I can die with anything
Edit: mind you, it's too late for several of the neutrals in my current run, but I'm sure they can console themselves with the thought there will always be another one ...
I figured if anyone would know it would be here. I just finished a solo SCS-Insane (Non LoB for now) run as a monk, and I'm wondering about the fesability of the same for LoB.
It's not been difficult until the Sarevok fight, except for no access to oils of speed
Monk Sarevok non-LoB SCS-Insane strategy was: Lure everyone into top right corner, wait for protections to expire while making a cup of tea, nuke with necklace of missiles. Skeleton warriors either lured and punched + protection from undead
Problem being monks can't use oil of speed so Sarevok is almost too fast to kite. If there was some way to hold him up then wand of heavens could take him down no problem but as is he will sometimes get some nasty hits in while waiting for the wand to cast requiring invisibility + healing. Wand of heavens + many invisibility potions & sandthief charges works, along with running round in circles, round the backs of the statues and hitting stealth where possible, but stealth only works around 70% of the time though at level 8 even if you can lose line of site.
Basically I am groaning at the thought of trying this LoB, I was wondering if anyone had any LoB Solo SCS-Insane monk ideas for Sarevok..., or if anyone has done it?
The only thing I can think of at the moment is as above - but with 4 necklace of missiles for 100 fireballs, rather than just one, and an extra wand of the heavens for 200 charges.
My main problem would be a source of lots of invisibility potions... are there any good sources in BG1:EE?
Other question would be wondering if anyone could think of an off the top of the top of their head strategy for Behlefit on insane, LoB or not (+++ invisibility potion hit and run with longsword + 3?) (Sling + Bullets of Darkness?)
I have a new character as well who, like yours, took off before Tyr's curse came about thankfully. I might post later tonight if work allows it.
@alice_ashpool, welcome to the forums! Take a look @histamiini's Dark Moon Monk, Jin, starting here. Would be really nice if you could let us know how you fare!
@alice_ashpool it sounds like you've got the basics already for Sarevok. After his acolytes are dead, he is vulnerable to fireballs, so you can do quite a bit of damage like that if you want.
A couple of things that might help you finish him off once you're out of necklace charges and potions:
- the ring of energy is more efficient than wand of heavens (as he has no magic resistance) if you want to keep using items.
- make use of potions of perception and potions of power. Multiple uses will push stealth up to where hiding is almost guaranteed and invisibility is only used on the rare occasion that stealth fails. Draw him over to one of the pillars and attack where you're already only just in sight - you can then retreat a step and try and hide again before he can move. As with all stealth users of course, don't attack directly from stealth, but do something to start the cooldown timer (like activating force attack, though not using it) and only actually attack at the point you can immediately restealth once out of sight.
By the way, in the unmodded game invisibility potions are pretty limited. More enemies may get them with something like SCS, but killing an enemy before they use it while playing solo LoB is not easy.
The good thing about that is I can restart using the revised set of rules. With quite a few encounters now ruled out, delayed or revised (looking at you Drizzt), strategy will have to be significantly different this time I think
I'm going to be doubly careful with my Beastmaster, knowing full well that I may not get to kill Drizzt again in this challenge, or at least not when it's most convenient.
As for thieving, I'd agree that pickpocketing isn't attacking. And I welcome the incentive to play thieves.
One question would be about using Durlag's Goblet without being able to wear Kiel's Helm, but tbh I've never tried it - Didn't bother picking up the goblet for my monk because of the lack of helm. But i'll give it a go and do some experimenting.
@Grond0 thanks, i was not optimized for Sarevok at all, so its reassuring that it was still possible. I had run out of Necklace of Missile Charges shortly after killing sarevok's squad, so yeah, with more offscreen damage to Sarevok would have been much easier. Likewise for the potions, I hadn't bothered to bring much more than some invisibility and regeneration potions.
I had not even thought about the ring of energy and didn't pick it up this run. For my LoB attempt I will give it a go.
The manipulation of enemy movement via attacks is useful too, its not something I've dived into.
Thanks both, lets see how I do
Maybe we will have to rework more things but for now the challenge looks "quite playable". Oh, i can also contribute another death as Lilli the Human Berserker got killed when facing an Ogre Mage ambush. Already at level 4 and with 6 Healing Potions i thougt this should be doable but the Mage played it smart waiting for his Dire Charm cast until Berserker Stance ended. With his Mirror Images still up i could not hit him and - even worse - i was too slow using a Potion of Clarity to protect against the incoming spell. GG again!
I will soon roll a new character adapting to the new rules. Sorry to hear about another death @Grond0!
Good luck for your Beast Master @Blackraven - i really like this class! When do you intend to dual?
EDIT: Pick Pocketing does count as attacking in my opinion @Grondo so - yes - this favours Thieves!
This is similar to most LoB strategies here. Don't forget about potions of explosions and oils of fiery burning. They'll give some extra kick once Sarevok's fire protection is down. I think you can escape the skellies by dumping them in a corner with Stealth... Protection from Undead scrolls are very useful in SoD, so I'd hold onto as many as possible.
Not in BG1, but if you hide and wait for a while around the siege of Dragonspear Castle, you can loot the bodies (use right-click and pick up form your invetory to maintain Stealth/invisibility) for loads of potions.
Champion's Strength scrolls, potions of power and potions of heroism stack. Buy loads from Belegarm, (along with potions of clarity to stop demon fear and charms), then beat Belhifet up! Monks have a harder time with this than most, but his other demon's can't see through invisibility, so you can use this to escape some unwanted attention (as you point out!). Good luck!
Consider me mildly confused
But to get things clear: Pick Pocketing is NOT an attack in my opinion so feel free to rob them all!
BtW: Are the specialst Mage kits affecting Wands regarding saving throws? ^^
Pass - perhaps someone more knowledgeable like @jmerry might be able to help?