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What do you think about this kit?

MadcapQMadcapQ Member Posts: 4
I originally posted this in General Discussion, but maybe it belongs here since the kit probably doesn't start to get too interesting until around BG2.

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I made a pretty fun solo-oriented backstabbing bard kit a few years ago. Currently, it's partly dependent on the Rogue Rebalancing mod for a couple of HLAs, but that can change easily. I don't have any intention of being an active modder, but this is a pretty fun kit to play, so I figured I'd make this post to see if there's any interest in its release.

I'm curious about whether or not you think the kit is too powerful/not powerful enough, issues you perceive, etc. Though, honestly, I doubt I'll be making many/any changes aside from possibly using vanilla HLAs in place of the Rogue Rebalancing ones - mostly because I don't really remember how haha.

Also, I don't have the Enhanced Edition, so I don't know if there are compatibility issues with mods made with the original version or not. It's a WeiDU mod that doesn't make any exe hacks, so it should be ok, yeah?

Description
Madcap: Most Madcaps are failures who were never talented enough to master their craft as Bards. For some, the realization that they may never be able to satiate their lust for adoration and fame has driven them mad. Others are simply jaded and unempathetic - they'll do anything for a coin, regardless of who gets hurt along the way. If they can't be famous, they'll happily settle for being infamous.

Though they prefer quietly disemboweling their opponents with the help of their illusory magic, Madcaps can still be quite deadly with short blades, daggers, and even darts. They restrict their magical studies to the schools of Abjuration, Alteration, Enchantment, and Illusion as those tend to be the most useful in martial combat.

For Bards, Madcaps are uncharacteristically anti-social. They prefer to avoid taverns and inns (where many adventurers congregate and relate their tales of battle), leaving their knowledge of lore lacking. And since it's generally easier to kill a mark than it is to subtly relieve one of his belongings, they make for terrible pickpockets.

Due to their past traumatic experiences as Bards, Madcaps are notoriously shy; rarely, when under extreme duress, they will reflexively vanish into the shadows to escape their tormentors. However, some Madcaps are so attuned to their powers of illusion that they are able to mislead those around them into believing that they are standing in one place, when they're actually preparing to strike from another.

Rather than singing, Madcaps hum a gravelly, low-pitched, and highly disturbing tune like splintering bone against sharp rocks - the listener may not even be aware the "song" is originating from a person. For those who are unfortunate enough to cross paths with a Madcap, it will often be the last thing they ever hear.

Advantages/Disadvantages
Advantages:
- Madcaps have a 5% chance of turning invisible for four rounds whenever they drop below 25% health. At level 24, this effect is replaced with a weaker version of Mislead. This effect may be interrupted.
- Gains 1 level of backstab every 7 levels up to x4 at level 21.
- The original Bard Song is replaced by one that increases backstab level by 1. The Madcap's Bard Song also increases damage by 1 for every 7 levels of the Madcap. Additionally, starting at level 7, the Madcap's Bard Song has a 5% chance to dispel the invisibility of every creature (including party members) within 8 feet of the Madcap. This chance increases by 5% with each level, up to 100% at level 26.
- Can specialize in Short Blades, Daggers, and Darts. Can achieve maximum proficiency in Two-Weapon Style.
- Can memorize one extra spell per spell level.

Disadvantages:
- -4 to Charisma
- Pick Pockets never improves.
- Gains 3 lore per level, rather than 10 as most other bards.
- Bard Song benefits only affect the Madcap. Party members, excluding the Madcap, can be affected by Bard Song's dispel invisibility. This can be prevented by any effects that make a creature immune to Divination spells.
- Cannot learn spells from the Conjuration, Divination, Evocation, and Necromancy schools of magic.
- Cannot achieve proficiency in any non-bladed weapons (excluding darts).

HLAs
Use Any Item
Hastened Casting
Mad Spin (Offensive Spin that lasts only 2 rounds and has no to-hit or damage bonus)
Resonating Weapon (Rogue Rebalancing mod)
Sound Barrier (Rogue Rebalancing mod)
Scribe Scrolls (Rogue Rebalancing mod version)
Alchemy (Rogue Rebalancing mod version)
Assassination
Extra Level 4 Spell
Extra Level 6 Spell
Improved Ambidexterity
Post edited by MadcapQ on
CrevsDaakgorgonzolalunar

Comments

  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    edited November 2016
    It doesn't make much sense that the bard song improves backstabbing. How do you surprise someone while singing? This could work in other games where sneak attacks don't always require actual sneaking.

    Overall it feels more like some kind of rogue/mage with more restrictions. The usual bard skills are virtually useless and replaced with the ability to backstab. The concept of the character is interesting but you don't really need a new kit to roleplay that guy.
    gorgonzola
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    I feel that it's pretty balanced, but not as much for solo play since one of it's main drawbacks (invis. dispel) is almost nullified by not having a party (or at least 5/6 of the problem since I guess it dispels your own invisibility as well). If you want to aim for solo, make the Bard Song weaker and make it work for party members as well, so that it feels the same. The spellcasting restrictions are pretty harsh but a Bard that isn't casting a Skull Trap is actually balanced since damage/level spells are broken on Bards. I guess the you should give the chance to get two proficiency points in the weapons it would be allowed to use as well. IMO, go for the "This mod requires RR" ideal.
    Francois said:

    Overall it feels more like some kind of rogue/mage with more restrictions. The usual bard skills are virtually useless and replaced with the ability to backstab. The concept of the character is interesting but you don't really need a new kit to roleplay that guy.

    A M/T would have a slower XP progression (besides no Bard Song = really hard to use trigger-at-will effects) and a pure Thief can't cast spells.
    MadcapQ said:

    It's a WeiDU mod that doesn't make any exe hacks, so it should be ok, yeah?

    I'm doing this in a completely selfish and non-self-promoting way, since it's the only guide on this that exists: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/34119/how-to-making-kit-mods-for-the-ee/p1 It's a bit messy since I have to update it. If something is not clear enough please tell me :)
    gorgonzola
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    CrevsDaak said:

    A M/T would have a slower XP progression (besides no Bard Song = really hard to use trigger-at-will effects) and a pure Thief can't cast spells.

    But the bard song in this kit would only affect the bard and can dispel invisibilities of party members. It's also not clear if it has the usual benefits of the regular Bard song or only the backstab benefit. Also he doesn't have stealth skills so all the potential backstabbing bonuses are severly limited compared to a M/T.
    CrevsDaak
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    Seems OP'd but that isn't bad, necessarily. Some people like to decry the OP'dness of certain mods, blah, blah, blah. I once modded a ranger cleric with 5 pips in every weapon they could use, and it was awesome!!
    gorgonzolaCrevsDaak
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    mashedtatersgorgonzolaCrevsDaak
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452

    8x backstab??

    But the opportunities for a backstab seem pretty low. He cannot hide in shadows so he has to use invisibility which has a very good chance of being dispelled by his own backstab-song unless he has non-detection. Shadowdancers have lower multipliers because they can hide at will; this kit is the reverse.
    gorgonzolaCrevsDaak
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    edited November 2016
    Accidental double posting; sorry.


  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    A couple of comments:

    If you don't have the EE's, then you don't have SoD, so how is the increased BS from the bard song gonna affect anything? Vanilla bardsong effects would disappear before you can land a BS, right? Or does RR add lingering songs to bards? If it does, then I agree that the total BS bonus is too high since it trumps even the assassins.

    You've added level 7 spells in the HLA lists, but bards only get up to level 6. Does that mean the HLA "extra level 7 spell" adds one level 7 slot (which is then doubled per the "- Can memorize one extra spell per spell level.") or how does this work?

    I really like the backstory and the idea of this character. You should add a charisma decreasing modifier, it seem to fit the backstory. A big one as well, this bard will not be any party's face! Add -4 or something to balance it out a bit.
  • MadcapQMadcapQ Member Posts: 4
    edited November 2016
    Francois said:

    It doesn't make much sense that the bard song improves backstabbing. How do you surprise someone while singing? This could work in other games where sneak attacks don't always require actual sneaking.

    Overall it feels more like some kind of rogue/mage with more restrictions. The usual bard skills are virtually useless and replaced with the ability to backstab. The concept of the character is interesting but you don't really need a new kit to roleplay that guy.

    Yeah, a very restricted thief-mage guided towards a niche playstyle was my intention. As far as surprising someone while singing, I imagine his "song" to be more of a disturbing noise that you might not even think is coming from a person. It's not intended to be used unless you're about to backstab someone or dispel someone's invisibility.
    CrevsDaak said:

    I feel that it's pretty balanced, but not as much for solo play since one of it's main drawbacks (invis. dispel) is almost nullified by not having a party (or at least 5/6 of the problem since I guess it dispels your own invisibility as well). If you want to aim for solo, make the Bard Song weaker and make it work for party members as well, so that it feels the same.

    It actually doesn't dispel your own invisibility - I should have made that clearer. If you're playing solo, the Bard Song can only really be used when attempting to backstab or if you need to dispel someone's invisibility. If you're in a group, someone should probably be casting True Sight instead.

    Also, thanks for the link about kit creation - looks like everything's all set aside from registering a prefix.
    Francois said:

    But the bard song in this kit would only affect the bard and can dispel invisibilities of party members. It's also not clear if it has the usual benefits of the regular Bard song or only the backstab benefit. Also he doesn't have stealth skills so all the potential backstabbing bonuses are severly limited compared to a M/T.

    The Bard Song's benefits are only as listed in the kit's description. The original Bard Song effects don't ever apply. Yeah, the backstabbing opportunities are limited, but I haven't found myself missing them too much. Especially when you get mislead, it becomes kind of ridiculous. With HLAs, the kit will eventually do more backstab damage than a mage/thief should be able to.

    Seems OP'd but that isn't bad, necessarily. Some people like to decry the OP'dness of certain mods, blah, blah, blah. I once modded a ranger cleric with 5 pips in every weapon they could use, and it was awesome!!

    Thanks - I felt it was slightly on the OP side myself, but it's interesting to see others say they feel its balanced or maybe even slightly underpowered.

    Seems OP'd but that isn't bad, necessarily. Some people like to decry the OP'dness of certain mods,

    I mean, if someone specifically asks for opinions about a kit, I don't think it's wrong to give your opinion, as long as you are respectful...

    This seems OP (I say while still respecting the effort and creativity that went into it). 8x backstab??

    Mostly it just doesn't seem very bard-y. Why not make a FMT kit? Seems like that's what you're going for.
    Yeah, I'm not sensitive about this. If people want to froth at the mouth about it, fine by me - everyone's been great so far though.

    I'm not sure where you're getting 8x backstab from. The max it should be able to receive is x4 at level 21 (x5 with Bard Song activated). Stalker gets x4 at 17, I think.

    In regard to it not being Bard-like, that's a big part of it for me. I thought it was cool to make a class that was kind of the antithesis of most everything it should be and stand for. Maybe that doesn't mesh well with class/kit design theory in D&D, I don't know.

    When I was designing the kit, my foremost goal was to make something with a somewhat unique playstyle that I personally could find fun. I enjoy magic and the backstabbing hit-and-run mechanics, so Bard was the ideal choice, rather than making a combat-oriented mage kit or a thief kit with a bunch of magical innate abilities.

    As far as making it a F/M/T kit, it just didn't seem all that interesting to me - also, I think it's impossible in the original engine. Played solo, F/M/T is far more powerful, with only a somewhat slower progression to hinder it. I wouldn't even see the point in making a kit for it at all.
    Francois said:

    8x backstab??

    But the opportunities for a backstab seem pretty low. He cannot hide in shadows so he has to use invisibility which has a very good chance of being dispelled by his own backstab-song unless he has non-detection. Shadowdancers have lower multipliers because they can hide at will; this kit is the reverse.
    The song doesn't dispel his own invisibility - I'll make that clearer in the description. And it's only max 4x backstab (5x with Bard Song active).
    Skatan said:

    A couple of comments:

    If you don't have the EE's, then you don't have SoD, so how is the increased BS from the bard song gonna affect anything? Vanilla bardsong effects would disappear before you can land a BS, right? Or does RR add lingering songs to bards? If it does, then I agree that the total BS bonus is too high since it trumps even the assassins.

    You've added level 7 spells in the HLA lists, but bards only get up to level 6. Does that mean the HLA "extra level 7 spell" adds one level 7 slot (which is then doubled per the "- Can memorize one extra spell per spell level.") or how does this work?

    I really like the backstory and the idea of this character. You should add a charisma decreasing modifier, it seem to fit the backstory. A big one as well, this bard will not be any party's face! Add -4 or something to balance it out a bit.

    The Bard Song stays in effect long enough for it to modify your first attack, unless EE changed something. The total bonus is x5 with Bard Song - is there a way I can make this clearer? I thought it was pretty clear from the description that the bonus caps at x4 at level 21 and then you only get +x1 backstab with Bard Song active.

    Level 7 spells - d'oh. I had a mod installed years ago that extended Bard Spell progression and I must have forgotten that they capped at level 6 when I made this. I'll add an HLA for an extra 4th level spell - maybe other HLAs for an extra 3rd and 5th too, to replace the RR HLAs, if I decide to.

    Glad you like the concept and good idea on the Charisma! I'll add a -4 to it.
    -

    Thanks for the feedback so far everyone. It's been really interesting for me to read your input - looking forward to more!

    Edit: I see how you guys thought Bard Song was increasing backstab higher than x1. I fixed the wording on that. Thanks.
    SkatanCrevsDaak[Deleted User]gorgonzola
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    I like the concept of this kit. Like some kind of anti-bard with inversed personality and a niched playstyle instead of the traditional jack of all trades. I also like how the madcap's song actually helps the character itself instead of just affecting allies and enemies.
    CrevsDaakmashedtaterssemiticgoddess
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited November 2016
    MadcapQ said:

    As far as making it a F/M/T kit, it just didn't seem all that interesting to me - also, I think it's impossible in the original engine.

    It's not. You can create a kit for the multiclass but it uses the base classes' clab files. The Multikit mod converts single class kits to multikits in this fashion so that they work together for a multiclass.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited November 2016
    Sounds fun to me both as a concept and utility. Only, I fail to see how bardsong will help the kit to backstab, if he attacks he stops singing and loses the bonus, though there may be a second window opportunity so a very fast shortsword is needed to backstab.
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