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Warlock Kit (Beta release v0.2.2)

ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
edited February 2018 in General Modding

Hey guys,

Before anything, this is my very first mod, it has gone through some technical testing but some bugs might have slipped in (e.g. a spell dealing incorrect damage at a certain level). Make sure to report them here.
I'll make a playthrough myself to check the balance of the mod, but it might very well be totally unbalanced, and I think it might be too strong, especially at higher levels. Drop your suggestions here, I'll take them into account.
I tried to make an effort concerning aesthetics but many spells, especially Eldritch Blast derivatives, might look similar or identical on screen. I'll change that soon.
Last, but not least, I am not a native, so my English is quite far from perfect. If some descriptions sound weird to you, it's normal, just tell me and I'll correct them.


Mod Features:
A brand new Rogue kit, with 32 unique spells and 13 unique HLAs, and hopefully more than that shortly. Features in the spoiler below. Quite the wall of text actually.





For those who do not play a lot of D&D outside of BG, I'll drop a link to explain the concept of the class:
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Warlock
Basically it's a special kind of spellcaster that has a very restricted number of spells (4 spell levels, and up to 3-4 spells per level) but can use them at will.

It's rather unique and since we can't make new classes, just kits, I had to cope with that and find a class that'd fit in terms of GUI, item usability etc...

So here's what the kit looks ike:
Rogue Kit
0 points per level to share among rogue skills, 0 at level 1. The only points you get are those from Dex/Race/item/spells bonuses
Cannot set traps
Cannot backstab
Cannot dual-class
I will explain why below the rest of the features, but it's not to be played like a rogue



Has access to Eldritch blast: this ability has a casting time of 1, can be used at will, and deals1d3+1 damage per level on a single target, up to 15d3+15 magic damage.

Has access to special abilities called invocations. These are special abilities that can be used at will. Details in the spoiler. You'll also find HLAs in the spoiler.

Spell progression: Same as in NWN2
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Warlock

Invocations implemented:
Note: Every Blast spell deals magic damage and are subject to Magic Resistance, unless specified otherwise. Their spell level is considered equal to the number of damage dice, up to level 9.
Besides, any damage/duration indicated here is purely indicative and might no make it as such in the mod once it(s released. It will go through balance testing first.
Eldritch Blast, and all that derives from it has been largely tuned down damage-wise, because the HP scaling is not the same in AD&D and 3E, and because it normally requires a touch-attack which cannot be implemented in BG2. Normally, Eldritch Blast derivatives deal as much damage as Eldritch Blast. I chose to tune down that as well so that a warlock will have to choose between trying to control his enemy and optimizing his damage output. Might not be balanced.


Least invocation:


Draining Blast: 1d3+1 per 2 levels on a single target, up to 8d3+8. Target must save vs Paralysation at -2 or it is slowed for 2 rounds

Frightful Blast: 1d3+1 per 2 levels on a single target, up to 8d3+8. Target must save vs Spells or be frightened for 3 rounds

Beguiling Influence: +6 to Charisma for 24hours

Dark One’s Own Luck: +1 to all saving throws per 5 levels and +1 to luck for 24 hours.

Leaps and Bounds: +4 to dexterity for 1 hour.

See the Unseen: grants Infravision for 1 turn per two levels. Also grant a bonus 10% per level up to 100 at level 10 to your Detect Illusion and Detect Traps skills.

Hideous Blow: Channels your Eldritch Blast into your weapon. Your next attack within 5 rounds will deal additional magic damage equal to that of your eldritch blast (still need to hit the target, if you don’t, the Hideous Blow is wasted).

Poisoning Blast: 1d3+1 per 2 levels on a single target, up to 8d3+8. Target must save vs Death or suffer 3 poison damage per round for 5 rounds.

Cloak of Shadow: +10 per level, up to 200 at level 20 to your HiS, your MS and your PP skills for 8hours.


Lesser invocations:


Beshadowed Blast: 1d3+1 per 2 levels on a single target, up to 8d3+8. Target must save vs Spells or be blinded for 1 turn.

Brimstone Blast: Deals fire damage. 1d3+1 per level on a single target, up to 15d3+15. Target must save vs Spells or suffer an additional 1d8 damage each round for one round per 4 levels, up to 5 rounds at level 20.

Truecold Blast: Deals cold damage. 1d3+1 per 2 levels on a single target, up to 8d3+8. Target must save vs Paralysation at -4 or suffer a -4 AC Penalty for 5 rounds

Curse of Despair: Target must save vs Spells or suffer a permanent -3 to all ability scores. This can be cured with a Remove Curse Spell.

The Dead Walk: Basically a copy of Animate Dead

Voracious Dispelling: Just like dispel Magic, and it deals 1 magic damage per level up to 10 to hit targets, allies included.

Walk Unseen: Permanent-duration invisibility, only on self, until any action that would normally break invisibility is used.

Flee the scene: As dimension door, and leaves a darkness spell from your casting point for 1 round


Greater invocations:


Eldrith Cone: 1d3+1 damage per level up to 15d3+15 in a cone.

Bewitching Blast: 2d3+2 damage per three levels, up to 10d3+10. Target must save vs Spells at -4 or be confused for 4 rounds

Stunning Blast: 2d3+2 damage per three levels, up to 10d3+10. Target must save vs Spells at -2 or be stunned for 4 rounds

Vitriolic Blast: 2d3+2 per three levels, up to 10d3+10,+2d6 acid damage. Ignores any magic resistance.

Chilling Tentacles: Creates a zone filled with tentacles. Any creature in the zone suffers 1d6 crushing damage and 2d6 cold damage per round, and must save vs Paralysation each round or be Held for one round.

Devour Magic: Replaces your weapon for one hit with a melee one that has no damage of its own, +10 to-hit, but dispels any effect on the target and heals you for 4hp per level, up to 80.

Tenacious Plague: Carbon Copy of Insect Plague

Repelling Blast: 2d3+2 per three levels, up to 10d3+10. Enemies must save vs Spells or be knocked back.

Eldritch Beam: 1d3+1 damage per level on all enemies between you and your target, up to 15d3+15, save vs spell for half.


Dark Invocations:


Eldritch doom: 1d3+1 damage per level up to 15d3+15 on a 30 foot radius, self-centered, save vs spells for half.

Utterdark Blast: 2d3+2 per three levels, up to 10d3+10 damage. Target must save vs spells at -2 or have two of her levels drained.

Binding Blast: 2d3+2 per three levels, up to 10d3+10 damage. Target is stunned for one round.

Dark Foresight: Protects the caster from any physical attacks for two rounds.

Retributive Invisibility: The caster becomes invisible and is granted immunity to divination for 3 rounds. When it ends, any nearby creature suffers 4d6 magical damage.

Crack the Weave: Removes one Spell protection, as well as all specific and combat protections.




High-level abilities:
Note on HLAs: unless specified otherwise, these HLAs can only be picked once, and only be used once a day.

Word of Changing: Demon: Allows the Warlock to assume the form of a Balor or a Marilith for 1 turn. It retains its warlock abilities while in this form. Excluded by Word of Changing: Devil. Can be picked multiple times.

Word of Changing: Devil: Allows the Warlock to assume the form of a Cornugon or a Pit Fiend for 1 turn. It retains its warlock abilities while in this form. Excluded by Word of Changing: Demon. Can be picked multiple times

Fiendfire Blast: 1d6+2 damage per level on a single target, up to 15d6+30. Half is fire damage, the other half is magic damage. The caster suffers a -3 Constitution penalty for 1 turn after using Fiendfire blast. Half the damage of each component ignores magic resistance. Once picked, this ability can be used at will.

Fiendfire Shield: Much like Fireshield(Red) , dealing 1d10+3 fire and 1d10+3 magic damage instead. This shield lasts 5 rounds and the caster suffers a -5 Constitution penalty for 1 turn after using Fiendfire Shield. Can be picked multiple times. Requires Fiendfire Blast

Hellball: Deals 8d6 fire, 8d6 cold, 8d6 acid, 8d6 magic and 8d6 electricity damage to all enemies in the area. Save vs Spells at -2 for half, ignores magic resistance (though not damage resistance). Requires Word of Changing: Devil

Summon the Infernal Host: Summons a Marilith.

Extra least invocation: Allows you to pick an extra least invocation.

Extra lesser invocation: Allows you to pick an extra lesser invocation. Requires Extra least invocation

Extra greater invocation: Allows you to pick an extra greater invocation. Requires Extra lesser invocation

Living Portal: This spell replaces its target with a Balor under the control of the caster, with no save. This spell is very exhausting and will incur instant fatigue as well as a -5 Constitution penalty for 24 hours. Requires Word of Changing: Demon.

Fiendish Constitution I: Gains +1 Constitution.

Fiendish Constitution II: Gains +1 Constitution. Requires Hellish Constitution I

Fiendish Constitution III: Gains +1 Constitution. Requires Hellish Constitution II

Use Any Item

Time Stop (as a one-cast-a-day special ability, pickable only once)

Fiendish Regeneration: Self-cast only. The caster heals for 5hp/second for 10 rounds. He then suffers a -4 penalty to Constitution for 2hours. Requires Fiendfire Shield





Now, why would I make it a rogue kit if it can hardly do anything a rogue does? Several points:
Hit die: rogue and warlock both have d6
Armor restriction: Both are restricted to medium armors
Weapon choice: More or less in line with what a Warlock gets in 3E.
2 Quick-weapon slots: That's what you have on most spellcasters.
Rogue skills: as you may have seen if you have been through that wall of text that was hidden in the spoiler, some invocations will buff your rogue skills. These are adapted from 3E invocations that boost the same skills, and aim to open a wider choice of ways for your character. Besides, any character in 3E may pick those rogue skills, except it will not be as effective as if a rogue were taking them.
No spellcasting except your special abilities.



Some "strange choices" you might have noticed:
Why would I give a warlock UAI as an HLA? Warlocks have the "use magic device" as a class skill in 3E, as well as the "deceive item" passive feat. So using items that are not made for them is in tune with the class.

Why would I give a warlock Time Stop as an HLA? Well, that's something I am not yet sure about. Basically, a high-level warlock is an immensely powerful caster, and as such I find it normal that he should have access to Time Stop. Making it an HLA that he can only use once a day is for balance reasons.

What's with all those CON-lowering HLAs? It aims to mirror the prestige class Hellfire Warlock in NWN2, which basically gives an immense offensive power in exchange for CON drain upon using its specific abilities.

Why make Word of Changing an HLA? Some of you might know it's supposed to be a dark invocation. The reason I moved it to an HLA is an balance matter which is related to an engine limitation. Polymorphing disables spellcasting, but not special abilities. I could make it disable special abilities as well but then you would not be able to transform back to human form or to another demon form. So basically Word of Changing would allow you to be in an alternate form while retaining all your warlock abilities. This deserves to be an HLA.

What's with the superlong duration spells? Well, it's a matter of conveniency, as well as a reflection of 3E behaviour. Since you have an unlimited amount of spells, casting them over and over would just be tedious. As you may have noticed, the very powerful spells when used in the thick of combat have a very short duration, much shorter than their arcane counterpart (retributive invisibility and Dark Foresight), to counterbalance the fact that they can be cast at will.


Most of the invocations are adapted from their NWN2 version, some are unimplemented 3E invocation, and there's one Dark Invocation (Crack the Weave) that is my own creation (or so I think). Most HLAs are brand new though some are derivatives from either existing invocations, 3E epic spells or 2E spells.




Current state: First version of the mod released. Writing the README. Mod attached to the post.

How to install: Much like most WeiDu mods, copy the zkwarlock folder and the setup-zkwarlock.exe file into your game folder, and execute the setup.

Changeplan: Pending for your feedback and my playthrough.
So far the kit appears to be quite balanced. Quite strong early and midgame, but the fact it doesn't have improved alacrity, stoneskin or a spell that protects from magic to some extend makes it a bit weak in ToB game. What I am looking to add is an additionnal invocation, probably a greater one, that will give some martial defense (kind of like stoneskin) and a dark one that will give some spell defense, like a spell deflection or something along those lines. I'm happy with not having improved alacrity (it would litterally mean instadeath of any enemy with robe of vecna since you'd have no cast time on most blasts), as mages must still have some advantage over warlock, as well as the fact the warlock's really good at duelling but not that good when it comes to AoEs. I am also happy with the number of invocations.

Changelog: 07/14/17: V0.1.1: First public release. EDIT: made a slight mistake, so the uploaded file will cause bug upon leveling up. Just fixed it and it should be fine. You may reinstall the mode midgame if you haven't experienced the bug yet. Besides I notice a few disappearing spells upon playing. I'm checking that out right now.. Partially solved, you shouldn't experiment the issue anymore but you'll have an extra cast of each of these spells everytime you cast them. This is purely cosmetic though, no gameplay influence since you have unlimited uses anyway.

28/10/17: V0.2.1: Various bugfixes. Buff spells (cloak of shadow and dark one's own luck) should no longer stack and are now dispellable. Eldritch Blasts were modified: They no longer have a flat damage component (except Fiendfire Blast). Additionnally their effective spell level now scales with the Warlock's level. Most spells should now have an adequate effect level.


25/10/17: V0.2.2: Various bugfixes and balance changes:
-Modified Leaps and Bounds so that it no longer stacks with itself.
-Nerfed Cloak of Shadows to 7 HiS, Pickpocket and Move Silently per level, up to 105 at level 15. It now properly gives the pickpocket bonus mentioned in the description.
-Edited the descriptions of the spells affected in this patch and the previous one.
-Corrected a bug which cause Imoen to be stuck trying to open your cell in the opening cinematic of BG2, if you didn't skip it. The result might look weird (In my game, Imoen's behaviour is kind of inconsistent and sometimes she walks above the cell to talk to you) but it should be functional.
-Living Portal will now display some fancy visuals and only affect creatures that are vulnerable to imprisonment. As opposed to the imprisonment spell however, the target will drop their inventory. The Balor that is summoned now lasts 5 minutes.

17/02/18: V0.2.3: Minor bugfixes:
-Cloak of Shadows now properly gives +2 AC at level 12, instead of +1
-Tenacious Plague and Devour Magic are no longer swapped in the spell selection dialog

Post edited by Arunsun on
Mush_MushdunbarArdanissemiticgodNoobaccaRaduziel10Bazza11MirandelRik_KirtaniyaTorgrimmerZaghoulSkatan
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Comments

  • KryptoNiteKryptoNite Member Posts: 1
    Looks awesome, im looking forward to hearing further from this. Thanks for doing this, BG could use a Warlock for sure ! :smiley:

    semiticgod
  • ashlar046ashlar046 Member Posts: 1
    Sound really really cool. I would love to play with a class like that. Great idea to use the rogue class as base :)

  • DeadThingDeadThing Member Posts: 1
    Do we have any updates on this? I think it'd be a blast to play warlock in BG, so much so that I'll probably need to go get a little fix from NWN2.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    At long last, an update on this mod :smiley: . I will simply copy paste what I wrote in the "current state" part:

    Current state: Creating custom spells (takes a looooooooooooong time, but I have time now and it goes faster and faster as I'm getting experience at doing that. Let's say I'm a level 2 modder now, somewhat better than before but still light years behind Epic Modders).
    In the end I managed to do what I want with unlimited invocations etc...
    Right now, I'm done creating the Eldritch Blast and its derivatives. Still can't give you a release date, but I hope it will be ready by the end of August. Then again, it's subject to real life and its hazards.


    It may not sound like much but I assure you it's far more advanced than it used to be. Now that I know how to proceed, it'll be much faster.

    As for the changelog:
    Changed most Eldritch Blast derivatives with hindering effects (slow etc...) to a fix duration from a per level duration. I found that to be better balance-wise, since you have unlimited blasts.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    Update: 07/14 : Mod released. See the original post, the mod is attached.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Which BGEE/BG2EE NPC do you think can be turned into a Warlock?

    Want to test this kit, but Charname is an Undead Predator.

    I always turn Imoen into a Psypher, so she's no available for this list. Maybe Xzar (there's a better evil wizard already anyway)?

    And is this compatible with EET and/or IWDEE?

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    edited July 2017
    Raduziel said:

    Which BGEE/BG2EE NPC do you think can be turned into a Warlock?

    Want to test this kit, but Charname is an Undead Predator.

    I always turn Imoen into a Psypher, so she's no available for this list. Maybe Xzar (there's a better evil wizard already anyway)?

    And is this compatible with EET and/or IWDEE?

    Mmmh I guess Tiax or Xzar would make sense. And there are two better evil wizards. Edwin and Mr. OPieOP... err I meant Baeloth
    Note that if you turn an NPC into a Warlock you'd have to add the invocations it's entitled to manually up to its level. I have attached an excel with the spell progression.

    The kit was designed for PC mostly, so I can't be 100% sure it would work for NPCs (variables are rather unpredictable with all these buggy OPcodes), but I don't see why not.

    Concerning compatibility, it should work with EET, and just about any other mod. If you intend to install mods that modify all rogue kits, such as Might and Guile, you should install them prior to this mod.

    It is not compatible with IWDEE as IWDEE is still in version 1.4 and the mod uses OPcodes and triggers that were introduced in version 2.x

    Post edited by Arunsun on
    RaduzielSkatan
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    edited July 2017
    Arunsun said:

    Note that if you turn an NPC into a Warlock you'd have to add the invocations it's entitled to manually up to its level. I have attached an excel with the spell progression.

    Can't I just use EEKeeper's function "Add Kit" for both Innates and Effects? That's how I used to do this before @subtledoctor 's mod for adding kits do NPCs.

    Doctor, do you know if I can use your mod to alter Xzar into a Warlock?

    In a different matter:

    @Arunsun, if I understood it well every and any ability is used at will, right? So you need to be really careful with those Drain Ability/Drain Level Invocations. With Doom and Greater Malison both become an "I win" button.

    Another thing (that I confess I don't have the faintest idea of how to fix it): I think that using the Rogue's level progression will make this kit too strong too fast.

    With 20.000 XP a Warlock can get access to Curse of Despair and start draining, permanently and at will, attributes.

    A wizard, for example, to have access to Contagion needs 60.000 XP. So it can cast a spell that drains 2 from STR/DEX/CHA (instead of three from all), once a day (twice if it is a specialist). And needs to find a scroll/ to have access to this spell. And give up on the opportunity to cast other things like Stoneskin, Greater Malison, Emotion, Improved Invisibility, Secret Word, Confusion, Fireshield, etc.

    And draining all attribute means that you are reducing, at the same time, the enemies AC, Hit Point, To Hit, Damage, spell casting potential.

    I'll make a run with Xzar as a WL and give you some feedback, but that's my first impression.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    edited July 2017
    Raduziel said:

    Arunsun said:

    Note that if you turn an NPC into a Warlock you'd have to add the invocations it's entitled to manually up to its level. I have attached an excel with the spell progression.

    Can't I just use EEKeeper's function "Add Kit" for both Innates and Effects? That's how I used to do this before @subtledoctor 's mod for adding kits do NPCs.

    I am not exactly sure how exactly it'll work. Adding Kit Innates will give the basic Eldritch Blast, adding effects will probably do nothing except giving the Lore Bonus, and anyway variables won't be edited. What you could do however would be, once you picked up Xzar, using EEKeeper to make him a Warlock and reset his level to 1. Then just add Eldritch Blast and a least invocation of your choice, since you only get one at level 1. Once you are back in game, if his experience was high enough to gain a level, he'll gain it instantly and then everything should work properly.

    Subtledoctor's mod won't allow you to make Xzar a Warlock since Xzar is a mage, while the Warlock kit uses Thief as a base class, and the mod only allows you to select a kit from your base class, so you will have to use EEKeeper anyway.
    Raduziel said:



    @Arunsun, if I understood it well every and any ability is used at will, right? So you need to be really careful with those Drain Ability/Drain Level Invocations. With Doom and Greater Malison both become an "I win" button.

    Another thing (that I confess I don't have the faintest idea of how to fix it): I think that using the Rogue's level progression will make this kit too strong too fast.

    With 20.000 XP a Warlock can get access to Curse of Despair and start draining, permanently and at will, attributes.

    A wizard, for example, to have access to Contagion needs 60.000 XP. So it can cast a spell that drains 2 from STR/DEX/CHA (instead of three from all), once a day (twice if it is a specialist). And needs to find a scroll/ to have access to this spell. And give up on the opportunity to cast other things like Stoneskin, Greater Malison, Emotion, Improved Invisibility, Secret Word, Confusion, Fireshield, etc.

    And draining all attribute means that you are reducing, at the same time, the enemies AC, Hit Point, To Hit, Damage, spell casting potential.

    Well these should not be too gamebreaking. First of all, there is a saving throw with no penalty to avoid the effect, and it's a single target effect, then you'd need to actually land 3 or 4 of them to kill someone with average or low stats. You'll probably be better off simply damaging the enemy to death. A level 6 Warlock is able to deal an average 18 damage per round from its Eldritch blast only, with no save.

    Let's take an example: Taurgosz Khosann, the guy with the Full Plate at the bandit camp. You should or could roughly be level 6 at that point, so you may have taken Curse of Despair. You'll need to reduce his abilities 4 times to kill him with curse of despair, since his lowest ability, Charisma, is at 10. His saving throw vs spells is at 13. You shouldn't have Greater Malison at that point, but you might have Doom. If you Doom him, your curse of despair will land 3 times in 4, if you don't, 2 times in 3. You will need at least 4 rounds to kill him with Curse of Despair, with an average 5 or 6 depending on whether he is doomed. Now Eldritch Blast, at the same level, deals an average 18 damage. So you'll kill him for sure in 5 rounds. even if you take his potions into account. Both ways take about the same time, but one only uses a spell with a casting time of 1 and no randomness in effect (well damage is random but it's not like Curse of Despair which either does its thing or does nothing), while the other has a casting time of 5 and might as well take much longer. On the other end, the second method, using curse of despair, will progressively cripple him and make him easier to kill by other methods as well. This seems pretty balanced in my opinion.

    And the further you go into the game, the more relevant enemies will have ways of countering what you might throw at them. Yeah, you will have Doom and GM, but they will have potions of invulnerability and a higher level, which counters both, or even worse, potions of magic shielding (that make all saving throws succesful if I am correct). And once in SoD most enemies will be either simply immune to it or dispatched with more conventional means more easily. Curse of Despair, much like most of these spells that don't have a malus to saving throws, will become worse and worse as the game goes. So even if it Curse of Despair is better early game, it will be practically useless lategame. Keep in mind that you only get 3 invocations of each level for most of the game, and ultimately 4 but that's only reached during late SoA/ToB.
    Concerning level drain, well, it takes a level 16 warlock to get the appropriate spell (1,320,000 exp, which is mid SoA), and it also offers a save, plus most relevant enemies are also immune to level drain. Even if it has unlimited use, is it really worth giving up one third of your damage output to have a chance to drain some levels? It might, and does in some situations, but not always.

    Blackrazor+3 offers 15% chance to drain 4 levels with no save per hit. A fighter with Improved Haste and Blackrazor gets 6+ hits per round, and most of them will hit at that point. Even if only 4 hit, that makes an average 2.4 level drained per round which is more than the Warlock can do, even if its target fails every single save. And Blackrazor does much more than that, yet it's just a good weapon, not a super-broken one.

    Your comparison with Contagion might not be that relevant, as I don't think anyone ever used that spell. Curse of Despair is deliberately much stronger than Contagion, but that doesn't necessarily make it overpowered, it's just that Contagion is a lot lower than a lot of other spells in terms of powerlevel. You can't say that cure light wounds is overpowered. It's a good spell, nothing more, but it is still much stronger than Goodberries, because Goodberries is absolutely dreadful, despite being a level 2 spell.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    RaduzielArunsun
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    edited July 2017
    @subtledoctor from what I have tested the kit is a strong one, but not overpowered.
    The single target damage output is high, but you must also keep in mind that the first AoE spell you get is a greater invocation, at level 11 (which is 220,000 exp, so past BG1 cap). A mage's fireball is a super powerful spell in BG1, the mage has fewer hit points, and obviously fewer casts, but it also has many more defensive options, and early AoEs, both damaging and controlling.
    The Warlock has no web equivalent till level 11 (chilling tentacles, which is one of the spells I consider might be too strong), and no fireball/skull trap equivalent. With 220,000 exp, a mage has access to Greater Malison+Chaos. You don't need unlimited GM+Chaos to win a fight, you just need one GM, and one or two Chaos.

    Besides, unlimited feels like a big word at first, but after gaining some levels a Sorcerer can handle any fights except Amelyssan without putting too much thought in it or resorting to Wish-Rest. And it doesn't have unlimited casting, just has enough. Baeloth, for example, would be


    Maybe developping a bit the philosophy behind the kit would make it more understandable:

    During early and midgame, it is meant to be a strong class, and it fades in lategame compared to other many other classes, both fighters and mages, because lategame their damage output is good but less than that of a fighter, and their unlimited spellcasting no longer shines compared to a mage.
    But even during early game, there many things that a mage does better than a Warlock. How many Eldritch blasts is a fireball worth, when it hits 5+ enemies? Take the fight against Zhalimar Cloudwulfe's party in the Iron Throne building, having 3 mages will win the fight within 2 rounds, having 3 warlocks will... maybe burst one or two of them in the mean time?
    If I were to resume this Warlock kit during early and midgame, I would say it's better than a mage at dealing with isolated targets, it has a more reliable, slightly more powerful damage output than a warrior, but it's way worse than the former at dealing with multiple enemies, and way worse than the latter at tanking anything.
    When lategame comes, well, the damage values might sound very high, but actually it's far from as powerful as both a mage and a warrior, due to how limited its defenses are, and even damage-wise, well, it's good but not godlike.
    I mean, just make the calculations: a Fighter with Improved Haste gets at least 6, up to 10 APR, with a 19+ strength. Give them a weapon that does 1d8+4 damage per attack, grandmastery with that weapon, gloves of weapon expertise, even with only 5 attacks that's 100+ damage per round on average, and twice that with Greater Whirlwind.
    Meanwhile, the Warlock's most damaging spell would be fiendfire blast, which deals 80 damage on average and drains the user's CON, and maybe an extra attack for up to 20 extra damage? It's nothing delirious, really. And if you can't afford draining your CON, you're down to 45 damage per round.
    And a mage, well for a mage DPR isn't even a thing, they'll simply cast improved alacrity and deal 300 damage to everything in the area before the enemies may even react.

    You should test the mod, really, it isn't as strong as it might look at first, and even I, who created the mod, was surprised by how not-so-powerful the kit was. I thought I would make too strong a kit and then balance it out by nerfing what should be nerfed, but in the end I found it to be pretty OK. I've tried a bit of ToB with this kit, there's no way I'll solo it as easily as I would with a Sorcerer, a Blade, or any warrior. For now in my main playthrough I'm in chapter 5 in Baldur's Gate 1 and I must say Edwin and Baeloth are doing much more than my Warlock during most fights.


    You do have a point, however, concerning stoneskin. I'll probably extend the duration of Dark Foresight from 2 to 3 rounds. Still considering adding a spell defense of some sort.

    Concerning the attack roll to hit blast, well, that's how it's supposed to be done in 3.5E but it uses the Ranged touch attack, and I found no way to do that properly. Giving a to-hit bonus to counterbalance the AC from armor and shield would give an unfair advantage against mages, or monks, or other classes whose AC rely on dodging, not giving it makes the class absolute crap against plated enemies.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Arunsun
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    edited July 2017

    Thing is, you're comparing the kit's power all the time, to what other classes can do only in limited circumstances. If limited spells don't matter for mages then why not give the warlock limited blasts? Obviously the distinction is there for a reason.

    But of course many people rest-spam. And many people have different ideas than me about what is a good power level for a kit. (My kits tend to be underpowered, on purpose.) So I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong. Just throwing out ideas that I would find interesting and cool. You may or may not like any of those ideas, of course. :wink:

    Eventually this boils down to: do you rest-spam when playing with regular spellcasters? If you do, then this version of Warlock is rather balanced. If you don't, it will necessarily be more powerful than a spellcaster with a limited number of spellcasts. Thank you for your feedback, it's always really interesting to have some from a talented modder such as yourself :smiley:

    T

    As far as using to-hit rolls as touch attacks: it can definitely be done. That's how the Spiritual Hammer works in Spell Revisions. It's a melee weapon (so no ranged weapon AC penalty) with the touch attack bonus, and a 20' range. To replicate that here, you could make different versions of the 'blast' weapon, and then make abilities to switch between them. Of course, that would be a fair amount of work to adapt from the way it is now... :(

    Can touch attack really be implemented as they are in 3.5E? A touch attack follows the following rules:
    Attacker: 1d20 + base attack bonus + bonus stat+ attack bonuses
    Defender: 10 + Dexterity bonus + Dodge AC bonus + Deflection AC bonus+ Size modifier


    While a regular attack follows these:
    Attacker: 1d20 + base attack bonus + bonus stat + attack bonuses
    Defender: 10 + Dexterity bonus + Dodge AC bonus + Deflection AC bonus+ Size modifier + Natural Armor + Shield Bonus + Armor Bonus

    Translated to BG and adapting formulas, BAB=Thac0, bonus stats are bonuses from STR or dex, and attack bonuses basically everything else, while dodge AC bonus would be bonus such as that of the swashbuckler, the monk or the kensai, or the evasion HLA, and deflection AC would be, for example, magic armors. Size modifier doesn't exist as such in 2.5, I think. Natural armor would be base AC without any equipment, so if this is ignored it's worth 10.

    Would it be possible to ignore these last three factors somehow? If this is doable then I'll be glad to revamp the mod and using this system. I just had a look at SR's spiritual hammer, but from what I get it's just a long range melee weapon with a +5+enchant bonus to hit, which is very different from touch attack.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Spell Revision gives a +4 Thac0 bonus to all touch-based spells. I think it's a good workaround.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    Raduziel said:

    Spell Revision gives a +4 Thac0 bonus to all touch-based spells. I think it's a good workaround.

    It doesn't reflect the idea of touch attack, alas.

    @subtledoctor or anyone else do you know how the Thac0 vs Type bonus OPcode works? if you select IDS target as GENERAL and IDS value as Armor, does it give a Thac0 Bonus vs enemies with an armor?

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,184
    GENERAL is just a creature type, it doesn't detect equipment.
    There is nothing you can really do from the attackers perspective other than give generic bonuses. To implement Touch attacks you would need to redesign how armor class works throughout the game.

    Shield AC is relatively simple to remove from the equation by replacing their (All Weapon) AC bonuses with Individual Specific Bonuses to each type.

    Natural AC can be replaced on monsters similar to Shield AC, though some have arbitrary values that need to be ignored.

    Armor AC would require a complete overhaul though. Personally, I rearrange effects so that only the enchantment/enhancement bonus applies to touch attacks (inevitably something must, in order to prevent AC stacking).

    It isn't really within the scope of a kit mod though.

    Arunsun
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    edited July 2017
    kjeron said:

    GENERAL is just a creature type, it doesn't detect equipment.
    There is nothing you can really do from the attackers perspective other than give generic bonuses. To implement Touch attacks you would need to redesign how armor class works throughout the game.

    Shield AC is relatively simple to remove from the equation by replacing their (All Weapon) AC bonuses with Individual Specific Bonuses to each type.

    Natural AC can be replaced on monsters similar to Shield AC, though some have arbitrary values that need to be ignored.

    Armor AC would require a complete overhaul though. Personally, I rearrange effects so that only the enchantment/enhancement bonus applies to touch attacks (inevitably something must, in order to prevent AC stacking).

    It isn't really within the scope of a kit mod though.

    That's what I was afraid of... Well in that case I guess I'd rather leave the behaviour as it is, with a tuned down version of Eldritch Blast that deals less damage than the original one but hits for sure.

    If it really proves unbalanced, I will smoothen the damage curve, scaling it on magic missile for the first 9 levels then increasing by 1d3+1 per level till it reaches the 15d3+15 (and of course smoothen all of the other Eldritch essences), or maybe changing it into 1d4 with no flat bonus and adding one dice every 2 levels, capping at level 27, and implement the Eldritch Master feat (would be a forced first HLA, which does nothing in itself, but reaching level 24 would effectively multiply the damage on every Eldritch Blast derivatives by 50% as per the Eldritch Master Feat).

    At exp cap, a warlock reaches 14d6 damage with his Eldritch blast in NWN2, effectively 21d6 since Eldritch Master's more or less a must. Hellfire Blast adds 6d6 but drains 1 CON per use, until healed.
    So Eldritch Blast is 21d6, Hellfire Blast is 27d6.

    What I consider doing is capping the base damage at 14d4 at level 28, which means 21d4 with the Eldritch Master, and add the extra 6d6 with Hellfire Blast, and making the CON drain last 24 hours on every CON draining ability.
    21d4 is 52.5 damage on average, so slightly more than right now (with a 45 damage average per blast when the cap is reached) but the cap would be reached a lot later. The kit really can use a small buff lategame. During early levels, it would simply be a slightly subpar magic missile with unlimited casts.
    21d4+6d6 is 73.5 damage on average, which is less than the current Fiendfire Blast (82.5 damage on average) but the immediate counterpart is less important. You could cast more in a row but would be limited in how many Fiendfire blast you cast a day, however, as opposed to now, with the CON being restored after one turn.

    What I could also do would be increasing the magic damage dealt through Charisma. +5% for 16, 10 for 18, 15 for 20, 20 for 22 and 25 for 24. This would, of course, induce an overall nerf of the damage output, so that a high charisma warlock would deal as much as now, and one with a very high charisma would deal slightly more. I would probably tweak the charisma giving items, especially the ring of human influence which sets charisma to 18

    Post edited by Arunsun on
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,184
    Arunsun said:

    At exp cap, a warlock reaches 14d6 damage with his Eldritch blast in NWN2, effectively 21d6 since Eldritch Master's more or less a must. Hellfire Blast adds 6d6 but drains 1 CON per use, until healed.
    So Eldritch Blast is 21d6, Hellfire Blast is 27d6.

    Keep in mind that HP scales far differently in 2E and 3E, with 3E reaching double the amount of 2E around level 20, and the gap just keeps growing. The difference can be even larger with monsters.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    kjeron said:

    Arunsun said:

    At exp cap, a warlock reaches 14d6 damage with his Eldritch blast in NWN2, effectively 21d6 since Eldritch Master's more or less a must. Hellfire Blast adds 6d6 but drains 1 CON per use, until healed.
    So Eldritch Blast is 21d6, Hellfire Blast is 27d6.

    Keep in mind that HP scales far differently in 2E and 3E, with 3E reaching double the amount of 2E around level 20, and the gap just keeps growing. The difference can be even larger with monsters.
    Which is also one of the reasons why I lowered the dice amount. I know that 3E keeps giving hit die past level 10, while 2E gives a flat amount

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  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,169
    edited July 2017
    Looks like a promising class, I would personally have used bard as a base instead of thief, enabled spellcasting in armor and disabled 5th and 6th level spell slots but you might disagree and it seems like it would be a drastic change to make at this stage anyways. I'm hoping to playtest it soon.

    Arunsun
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    edited July 2017

    Looks like a promising class, I would personally have used bard as a base instead of thief, enabled spellcasting in armor and disabled 5th and 6th level spell slots but you might disagree and it seems like it would be a drastic change to make at this stage anyways. I'm hoping to playtest it soon.

    Thank you a lot, both for your kind comment and the huge amount of help you gave me to make this mod! Making it a bard kit would be doable but it would restrict some possibilities, such as Hiding in Shadows or detecting illusions. It would open a new world of invocations though, ones that would use the bard song. An option I'll consider, but for now I'm working on another kit mod, for warriors this time, a pretty unique one I hope

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Just for notice: Xzar is doing pretty well as a Warlock.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    Raduziel said:

    Just for notice: Xzar is doing pretty well as a Warlock.

    I'm glad to hear that. What do you think about the balance of the kit?

    I was considering revising the damage progression, to nerf it early game and keep it as it is/slightly improving it lategame (SoA/ToB)

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    The damage is not the problem. The problem is the blasts side effects.

    Xzar can shut down pretty much every wizard in the game with Poisonous Blast.

    And if I may make a suggestion, add an item pack for the Warlock :)

    Xzar being a Thief can't use any Wizard equipment and being a Warlock the Thief equipment just doesn't suit him well.

    Cheers!

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    Raduziel said:

    The damage is not the problem. The problem is the blasts side effects.

    Xzar can shut down pretty much every wizard in the game with Poisonous Blast.

    Yeah I have had my sights on Poisonous Blast for a while. As it is it's straight-off stronger than, say, Brimstone blast, which isn't normal. I'll fix that along with the damage rebalancing in the next version of the mod.
    Raduziel said:


    And if I may make a suggestion, add an item pack for the Warlock :)

    Xzar being a Thief can't use any Wizard equipment and being a Warlock the Thief equipment just doesn't suit him well.

    Cheers!

    I'm working on it, I have a couple of items in mind. This might not come with the next version as I would like it to have more than two items :smiley:

    Thank you for your feedback

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member Posts: 14,399
    I've just downloaded and installed it and it seems that Cloak of Shadows and Dark One's Own Luck can be cast infinitely every round and stacked. A mid-level Warlock in BG1 could cast multiple instances of both spells and get undispellable -20 AC and +20 to luck and saves for an entire day, making them more or less invincible. They'd take minimum damage from all incoming spells, get a 95% hit rate with maximum damage on their own attacks, a 95% miss rate for incoming enemy attacks, and be immune to all disablers and instant death effects that offered a saving throw. The only drawback would be that you'd have to cast numerous spells every day to keep up the effect.

    Also, all the Eldritch Blast abilities appear to strike as level 1 spells, making them completely useless against almost any mage as well as (Ascension) Melissan.

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  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,169
    edited October 2017
    That’s not how spell levels work.

    The level 1 issue happens because (probably, not in a position to check right now) he set the spell power of all effects to 1. Though I suspect you already know that.

    I’m guessing it’s because he used Chromatic Orb as a base.

    semiticgodArunsun
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member Posts: 14,399
    Yes, a spell's level is not always the same as the power of the effect. It's possible to rig a Fireball, say, to strike as a level 4 spell.

    I've considered using the defensive invocations to create a near-invincible character for a restless poverty run, but I didn't want to if that behavior was just going to get patched out in the next release of the kit.

    If the defensive invocations like Dark One's Own Luck are on-self only, undispellable, and last all day, it would be easier just to make them a permanent effect.

    GodOlvynChuru
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