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What disappoint you in BG2 romances?

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  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    edited November 2016
    I enjoyed yours too, @Kurona , and indeed @Mirandel 's response which I had missed. For my part, I can forgive the sexism too. If anything, I appreciate the fact that gender does not go unheeded, and the idea that a female PC might have to work harder to prove their equality bothers me much less in a game reflecting society than it bothers me in actual society. I don't dislike Anomen as much as a lot of other people, but I can very much understand why people do dislike him as much as they do.
    ThacoBell said:

    I find it odd how much flak Aerie's romance gets because you need to be nice.

    It's very monotonous, and constantly going one way. From what I understand, Haer'Dalis is the most interesting part of her romance. I'd rather steal him away from her, frankly! I have no objection to being nice, but constantly cooing somebody and telling them that they are wonderful and everything is okay is pretty tedious: especially when the majority of party members interact with Aerie to the same effect of affirming her utter and perfect angelness. Super dull. Can you imagine dating somebody who was perpetually reliant on you to hold their self-esteem together?
    KuronaJuliusBorisov
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @lunar - I see your point, but Dorn is a Blackguard. In-your-face Evil actions seem to me to be very appropriate characterisation for a Blackguard, they're explicitly intended to be militantly Evil bastards.

    Perhaps the real problem is that Dorn wasn't the most comfortable choice to be a romanceable character at all, except for the minority who enjoy playing as a mad-axe-murderer protagonist. It might have made for a more balanced selection of romance options if Rasaad had been bisexual and Neutral-aligned (and therefore unkitted rather than a Sun Soul monk) ... but obviously that would have required a substantially different story and questline for Rasaad, so he wouldn't really have been "Rasaad" at all.
    gorgonzolamashedtaters
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    Do any of the romances show any real interest in Charname?
    Far as I can remember, none do, it's always about their issues, their backstory.

    Would have been nice if the writers had written a few dialogs where the NPC asks you how you are feeling with a few alternative responses that led to reactions apart from questions that are only for the purpose of developing the romance.
  • RelSundanRelSundan Member Posts: 918
    Aerie. After all her whining.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    Viconia, especially if you take the good/neutral path. Basically the main reason she becomes interested in you is because you are doing the whole unselfish shtick, and it's somehow working.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Nuin said:

    Viconia, especially if you take the good/neutral path. Basically the main reason she becomes interested in you is because you are doing the whole unselfish shtick, and it's somehow working.

    Considering the Drow culture and how she is, that makes sense. Although, I've played a totally evil d*ckhead, who had some sympathy for Viconia, and also gotten the "I love you, CHARNAME" result. Never mind that we both probably went on to become villains after TOB.

    Honestly, Aerie, because she's so naive and helpless. I dislike her character a ton in general. Nothing wrong with a young gal who is learning and coming of age, but she whines like no one's business.
  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    Viconia's romance is actually my least favorite because of what's not there. Plus the fact that I'd prefer a friendship path to be much more satisfying - and less 'unhealthy', in my opinion.

    Aerie's is so-so - I don't see it as anything special, although I don't dislike it either. Jaheira's is the best of the originals in my opinion. Admittedly, I like Anomen, but not because of his romance.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235

    I enjoyed yours too, @Kurona , and indeed @Mirandel 's response which I had missed. For my part, I can forgive the sexism too. If anything, I appreciate the fact that gender does not go unheeded, and the idea that a female PC might have to work harder to prove their equality bothers me much less in a game reflecting society than it bothers me in actual society. I don't dislike Anomen as much as a lot of other people, but I can very much understand why people do dislike him as much as they do.

    ThacoBell said:

    I find it odd how much flak Aerie's romance gets because you need to be nice.

    It's very monotonous, and constantly going one way. From what I understand, Haer'Dalis is the most interesting part of her romance. I'd rather steal him away from her, frankly! I have no objection to being nice, but constantly cooing somebody and telling them that they are wonderful and everything is okay is pretty tedious: especially when the majority of party members interact with Aerie to the same effect of affirming her utter and perfect angelness. Super dull. Can you imagine dating somebody who was perpetually reliant on you to hold their self-esteem together?
    Its very much a coming of age story. She has no real world experience whatsoever, taken as a slave at a young age. Moreover, he only positive relationship before charname comes along is still within the context of the circus she was sold to. Everything that has happened in her life was trauma after trauma, which resulted in her losing all self worth. Her actions and dialogue early make complete sense, and when she gains that self confidence and self worth, she becomes a force to be reckoned with.
    recklessheartgorgonzola
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    edited November 2016
    I'm not stating that her personality isn't legitimised within her backstory or anything like that, but its still unappealing and monotonous (to me).
    Post edited by recklessheart on
    ThacoBell
  • AdaJAdaJ Member Posts: 154
    Mirandel said:


    For girls being the only LI is crime enough, but being the only LI AND to have a romance so dry (IMHO - quite badly too) written does not help either (sorry, Mr. Gaider, I know he was the first one, and Alistair, who obviously came out of that experience is brilliant, so you needed that experience and I am glad you had it).

    I can't agree with that. Alistair might be better than Anomen, but I don't actually find Alistair to be all that likeable at the end of it. He starts out well, but the Landsmeet sequence really sours the whole thing for me. He came across as quite self-centred and shallow even after you hardened him up.
    For example, everyone has agreed that Loghain, for all his crimes, would make a good Grey Warden. Stripped of his nation, and focussing only on the one good thing that he is good at (i.e., combat and war), Loghain would be a massive asset to the Wardens. This is the Grey Wardens we are talking about, a group that do not care about your past. What does Alistair do? Throws that all out the window in order to indulge his need for vengeance. It is like the tale of how Duncan became a Grey Warden never even penetrated his thick skull.
    I actually dislike his whininess to the point that my female characters almost always bed the bard instead.
    There are a lot of shades of Anomen in Alistair, except that Anomen has a lot of other objectionable qualities that makes him far less likeable than Alistair.
    Everyone else has their hang ups, usually because of how their life until then had scarred them.
    Aerie is needy and whiny, but that is because she is still mentally a young teenager. We all went through that phase.
    Viconia has had a horrid life on the surface, and the only person to actually show her any respect or warmth is Charname. Everyone else either yelled at her, want to kill her or just plain outright raped and attempted to murder her. That is why she is so conflicted about the whole thing, and why she is so curious about how you can be Good and happy in a world so patently filled with Evil.
    I can analyse the rest of the non-EE companion, but this has gone on long enough.
    The reason why people dislike Anomen is that he is a jerk. Not because he is a psycho who kills puppies for fun, but because he arrogantly believes he is right and so believes that he is justified in talking down to others, lecturing others or outright tries to/advocates killing them. That is why people hate the Anomen romance so much.
    And by the way, I actually believe Gaider did a GOOD JOB writing both Alistair and Anomen. Just because I do not like the characters does not mean that I believe they were badly written. There are many real life Anomens running around. I see them every day. Alistairs also.
    ThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    What annoys me about the Aerie romance is the voice. I acknowledge that Kath Soucie is an incredibly talented voice actress...but every time I hear Aerie speak, I can't stop but think of Phil and Lil from Rugrats.

    Kind of ruins immersion for me when she starts to talk about flying and her undying love for Charname and all I can think about is Phil and Lil arguing about Reptar.
    KuronaJuliusBorisov
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    Kath Soucie is associated to The Master for me...
  • Papa_LouPapa_Lou Member Posts: 263
    AdaJ said:

    Mirandel said:


    For girls being the only LI is crime enough, but being the only LI AND to have a romance so dry (IMHO - quite badly too) written does not help either (sorry, Mr. Gaider, I know he was the first one, and Alistair, who obviously came out of that experience is brilliant, so you needed that experience and I am glad you had it).

    I can't agree with that. Alistair might be better than Anomen, but I don't actually find Alistair to be all that likeable at the end of it. He starts out well, but the Landsmeet sequence really sours the whole thing for me. He came across as quite self-centred and shallow even after you hardened him up.
    For example, everyone has agreed that Loghain, for all his crimes, would make a good Grey Warden. Stripped of his nation, and focussing only on the one good thing that he is good at (i.e., combat and war), Loghain would be a massive asset to the Wardens. This is the Grey Wardens we are talking about, a group that do not care about your past. What does Alistair do? Throws that all out the window in order to indulge his need for vengeance. It is like the tale of how Duncan became a Grey Warden never even penetrated his thick skull.
    Very interesting. I'd never really thought about that fact before.
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 526
    edited November 2016
    To begin with - we were discussing why players in general and modders in particular hate Anomen. And you answered it yourself:
    AdaJ said:


    Anomen has a lot of other objectionable qualities that makes him far less likeable than Alistair.

    I would add romance to this list of objectionable qualities - to my taste it's written very poorly in comparison even with other official romances and it makes Anomen even less likable.

    Discussion of Alistair would be offtopic here, so I would put it under spoilers


    First of all, my personal view of Alistair's romance vs Anomen: if we compare writing, then, thought Alistair in not everyone's favorite (no one is, there are even Garrus-haters out there), his romance in incomparably better written (start, development culminations and possible outcomes - brilliant work). But so are other romances (I played them all too) in DAO. It simply better written.
    AdaJ said:

    For example, everyone has agreed that Loghain, for all his crimes, would make a good Grey Warden.

    Who are those "everyone"? :) Introduce me sometimes, please.

    On a serious note: the Warden part was not that thought through in the game. One minute we could not recruit anyone - next minute we can freely make anyone a warden. If it's the case, then we have AN ARMY of all races on our hands and should make as many wardens as we can before the battle.

    Another thing, for some reason everyone believes that survived new recruit miraculously become loyal to Wardens in their cause. I personally do not believe so.

    And the last thing, even if you disagree with Alistair's opinion on the matter, you can not say the character was inconsistent - he thought being a Warden is a privilege, and he keeps that believe. So, a warden-killer and a warden-fraimer does not deserve that honor. You see anything wrong with writing here? I don't.

    Not to mention, I personally do not think a man, who betrayer his king (twice, actually, if we remember him forcing Marek to kill the love of his life), lost the battle, started and lost a civil war, organized a murder of universally loved noble, threatened his daughter, put arch-traitor in charge of most administrative work and showered him with wealth, sold hundreds free citizens to slavery, and finally who was blind to obvious warning sings about blight, can be of any good to anyone

    In my games all my wardens always agree to kill Loghain. Not only agree, sometimes I reserve the pleasure of killing blow to myself. :)
    AdaJ said:

    He came across as quite self-centred and shallow even after you hardened him up.

    I do not see how a man, that can sacrifice everything for his country (including his love to you) can be called "self-centered.

    As of whining - may be you can finally enlighten me of that thing? I do know one character in BW games I can call "whiny", though not sure you are familiar with him. It's in SWTOR, a companion called Malavi Quinn. Any time you move to a new location, he comments how awful it is and asks when are we going to leave that disgusting place. Same happens when he is commenting on other companions. THAT I call whining. When and how does Alistair whines?

    AdaJ said:


    And by the way, I actually believe Gaider did a GOOD JOB writing both Alistair and Anomen. Just because I do not like the characters does not mean that I believe they were badly written. There are many real life Anomens running around. I see them every day. Alistairs also.

    Have never met Alistair personally, but I agree about Anomens. Still, in case of Anomen the only thing I hate, no, insufficient, HATE - is his romance. Every single line, every word makes me cringe. I do usually keep Anomen around though for his quests and as Keldorn's apprentice - it's an interesting line. But the point is, he is not written as a fun or pleasure-to-have-around companion. So, hatred from players is somewhat justified.
    ThacoBell
  • AdaJAdaJ Member Posts: 154
    edited November 2016
    I disagree. The romance is poorly written? Definitely. It starts with him making a disparaging remark about you being a woman, and his personality not only reinforces this, he does not actually change much until the "big reveal" as it were.

    However, it is the combination of him being an arse AND the fact that there is no other person you can romance as a female Charname that grates. EE doesn't make this any better, by the way. Of the three new people that a female Charname can romance, one is a omnicidal sociopath, another is a Twilight emo psychopathic lead sheet (i.e., impenetratable) and the third is locked into revenge as his central identity, and even if you knock him out of that, the end is a whimper of getting killed by monk mooks. I think that is why the hate for Anomen came into play early, and it was only reinforced by the changing outlook in Western society as 1990s turns to 2016.

    The thing that a lot of people forget is that BG was written back in the 90s. Things were a lot different then, a lot less politically correct, a lot less female RPG players, a lot less DnD players who will admit to their hobby period, amongst other things. I remember when Lexa Doig came out as a diehard DnD player and people were all talking about it. Then Vin Diesel came out.

    Because of this, a lot, if not all, RPG romances were written from a male point of view. Just take a look at the Conan series of books from the 80s and 90s if you really want to be shocked with badly written "romances". That is why I am not too bothered with Anomen's lines in the romance. I am, however, bothered with his arrogance and his bullying and his intolerance. That is what kills his "romance" for me. Anomen is someone that I would invite into the party, hear his first couple of lines and kick his arse out into the Elemental Plane of Bees. Fall in love with the jerk? HAH! Minsc, tear up the sleepers, please.

    Similarly with Alistair. He is all fun and games until actually, you know, doing his duty as a Grey Warden. He acts all butthurt whenever Grey Wardens are mentioned and thinks he is the only one entitled to be sad about Duncan, which is ludicrous if you are playing a Cousland or a Dwarf Commoner or, to a lesser extent, any of the other beginnings where you actually spoke to the guy. He wants to charge the gates of Denerim Palace in broad daylight in order to confront Loghain when he knows the Archdemon is about and we have a Blight to deal with. He ignores the advice of his superior, Riordan, about Loghain and just plain executes the guy even if the only other Grey Warden in the whole country (i.e., YOU) agrees that Loghain would make a good Grey Warden. And if you think that killing a Grey Warden is sufficient reason for Alistair to do what he did, I suggest you read up on how Duncan got to become a Grey Warden.

    Lastly, him giving up everything to be king is plain frakking stupid if you are a Noble yourself. Hello? At that point in time, you were probably SECOND in line to the throne after him. As far as anyone knows, you are the only Cousland left just as he is the last known Theirin. Both assumptions are wrong, of course, but at that point in time, that was correct. There was NO REASON for him to break off the romance in the slightest. He can't even use the excuse that you are not noble born and so the people won't accept you. You have a greater claim to the throne than Anora, for Pete's sake! The only probable reason that he is doing what he is doing is that he is throwing a temper tantrum that he is force to be king.

    Sorry, doesn't wash. Go deal with it yourself, and get out of the party. I have enough drama with the Blight, rebuilding Highever or Orzammar or whatever, and other myriad other duties to want to deal with his childish temper tantrums. I'll take Loghain, thanks. At least I'll have a bit of fun forcing him to do the tango with Morrigan. Muahahaha! And Zev gets a bit of fun with him also.
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    edited November 2016

    Do any of the romances show any real interest in Charname?
    Far as I can remember, none do, it's always about their issues, their backstory.

    I like Neera. She seems to be the only ones who thinks romances should be enjoyable. And also Glint in SoD; gotta love the gnome, who I hope will make it into BG2 someday.
  • AdaJAdaJ Member Posts: 154
    I am pretty sure Viconia does care for Charname insofar as she is able to (remembering her history and hang-ups). I read her fear of Lloth's assassins is as much on your behalf as hers and she tried to get you out of it so that you won't get hit when they come for her.

    I don't know why people find Viconia's romance the hardest to do, to be honest. I always somehow muddle through hers easily. Mind you, none of them are all that hard, IMO, so hardest might be just relative.
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 526
    AdaJ said:

    I disagree.

    You are funny, you know that? :) And I mean it in the most positive way! You say "disagree" and then nail every problem with Anomen and his view by the players (even retrospectively!). There can be no arguments about difference in perception at times BG was written and modern, targeted audience and everything else you mentioned.

    I could say that there are plenty of romantic novels written by men but appealing to women, but in videogames of that time it was something new. So, your every points stay and objectively I can not add anything to that (subjectively - I still think the romance lines writing is off there, but this is pure IMHO)


    With Alistair, though, we would have to "agree to disagree". I can go point by point and prove that your dislike of the character is playing tricks with your memory and you are blaming Alistair for decisions of player character, but I think the problem here is this:
    AdaJ said:

    There was NO REASON for him to break off the romance in the slightest.

    Let me guess, your first character was elven girl and marriage refuse took you by surprise? And you are still mad, do not want to replay it to actually read and listen all dialog options?

    I was much more careful and new that part in advance. So, my Cousland married him and others stay as lovers (when I play that romance). And my mages (favorite PT) or elves do not complain about inability for crowd to accept a mage\elven queen. That is the setting, I accepted that thing by starting the game.

    First thing you forget, it WAS a great sacrifice for him, but he was appointed as a king (by you, by the way, it was solely your decision) and he tries to be worth of the trust you put in him, hence, completely ignore his personal needs.
    Second, if you listen, you will hear (VA made divine work there) how much is he lost now and how much he needs you to find the way out of the trap YOU arranged for him (and your relations with him). And how glad he is when you find the way (marriage by noble rights or staying lovers).
    Third, you are the one making all decisions. Period. He was following you to this point and he is waiting for your advise\decision even now.

    The only thing Alistair is adamant about is Loghain's death. I told you why my characters (and myself) are totally agree with him - Loghain is useless (refer to my list of his fails), old (most likely will not survive the joining) and corrupted to the bone: he is not only exterminated ALL Alistair's family (ok, he failed in case of Arl Eamon, but it's not his fault, he did his best) but he killed not ONE warden, but all of them too and fraimed the order in general. Alive he is useless at best, dangerous at worst. Yet, his death can have a meaning and politically is the right move.

    I see not a single reason for him to live and the sudden change of hearts of Riordan always looked to me as a clumsy fan-service for Loghains lovers to give them an opportunity to save a quality villain.


    ThacoBell
  • AdaJAdaJ Member Posts: 154
    edited November 2016
    Actually, no. Your every assumption is wrong. I even told you the character I played, but you preferred to tilt at windmills.
    You are no longer worth debating with because it is obvious that you are in love with Alistair and there is nothing anyone can do to gainsay that. Because of that love, you see Loghain as a one-dimensional villain, whereas he is so much more than that. I can list you his traits and how they drove him to doing what he did, and that is just from that game and the DLCs alone, nevermind the books. A lot of it was foreshadowed in the game or hints were given as to what was happening in the background but was not directly revealed.

    That was the beauty of that game. No one is one dimensional. All have their good and bad and there are multiple layers of complexity in them. Even the villain that was given one of the shortest screen time in modern history, Uldred (seriously, he had 1 interrupted line during Ostegar and that's it), has his own motivations and explaination on how he became what he was, especially if you played the Mage origin. That is the kind of quality writing and characterisation that I hope that the new Beamdog game will have, whatever it may be. I also hope that the same kind of "not telling everything, but vague hints are given, figure it out yourself" type of writing will come out in the new game. Stories that reveal everything in the first few chapters really makes for a boring read.
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 526
    Your naivete is charming, but I have to agree with you one more time - in your own words "you are no longer worth debating with".

    We have David Gaider with us now and working on a new BD project. Let's hope it will be all his name is promises.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Adaj, Sorry, but some of your claims about Allistair are false, taste is certainly objectve, however. "He wants to charge the gates of Denerim Palace in broad daylight in order to confront Loghain when he knows the Archdemon is about and we have a Blight to deal with" This right here, another character early on suggests confronting Logain in Denerim. Allistair is actually the FIRST to shoot that suggestion down. At no point does he push for a direct assault.

    "Lastly, him giving up everything to be king is plain frakking stupid if you are a Noble yourself." This right here. He doesn't choose to give up anything to be king. The enitire game, he makes it very clear he wants nothing to do with the kingship. The player has to force him to be king for that to happen, and he is clearly not happy about it.

    Not liking a character is fine, if eveyone had the same favorite, that would be incredibly boring. But don't let your hatred misrepresent them, thats just gonna piss a bunch of people off.
    Mirandel
  • AdaJAdaJ Member Posts: 154
    Do the whole post-Ostegar sequence to the end of Lothering again, Thacobell. Alistair was obssessed with Loghain and kept trying to get Charname to go after the guy. Even brings up Arl Eamon repeatedly. Loghain wasn't the true threat. The Archdemon is. Morrigan picked up on it, and even though she admitted to not knowing who "this Loghain person is", used that as an example of what she would do.

    And it was Mirandel who came up with him "sacrificing" everything. To me, he was just throwing his toys out of the cot again, a "take that" against people who forced him to take up something he didn't want, which is precisely on target for his personality. I was pointing out why the whole idea of his sacrificing stuff was stupid. He wasn't. He was just having a temper tantrum.

    It is this childish, selfish behaviour that turned me off him. Alistair doesn't get "the greater good". Again, it is fine to have a character like that. The writing is spot on, I have no complaints about that. I just don't find the guy particularly likeable.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    edited November 2016
    *EDIT* I went way off topic. Nothing to see here.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    edited November 2016
    Stupid double post :neutral:
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 526
    edited November 2016
    ThacoBell said:

    *EDIT* I went way off topic. Nothing to see here.

    Would not do any good anyway: you are "an obvious Alistair lover, suffer from a memory loss, see every character as one dimensional and not worth debating with" ;)

    Some people can see only what they want to see, reasons and words in general are lost on them.
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