SoD spoilers:Throne Of Bhaal - Caelar Argent NPC - Skii Silvershield NPC - "SOD SPOILERS"

DivineBlood

Caelar Argent to be an NPC in TOB:

Seeing as we can resurect Saerevok in the pocket plane, I think it could be great to have the option of resurecting Caelar (Good Alignment) instead of Saerevok (Evil Alignment).

This could open a great new Paladin NPC with great side quests and dialogue. Perhaps she shoud be a fallen Paladin.

Id like to open a discussion on Caelar and if she was an NPC. What quests? What Diaolgue? What Effect on the storyline? Perhaps there should be another option to resurect a (Neutral) character. Now that Irenicus is dead, perhaps Skii Silvershield's Soul was released from the dagger.

Lets talk!

TheArtisan

Someone was planning on making a Caelar mod a couple months back. She's technically not dead though, not as far as the player knows.

Skie... no. I'd rather not. At most, a bonus quest to free her from a fate worse than death, maybe.

Gallowglass

DivineBlood said:

Seeing as we can resurect Saerevok in the pocket plane, I think it could be great to have the option of resurecting Caelar (Good Alignment) instead of Saerevok (Evil Alignment).

But Sarevok can (eventually) also become Good alignment, if you consistently give him Good-but-forgiving answers in dialogue.

DivineBlood said:

This could open a great new Paladin NPC with great side quests and dialogue. Perhaps she shoud be a fallen Paladin.

It'd be conceivable for her to have some decent quests etc., yes. However, we already have a joinable Paladin available (i.e. Keldorn), so if we're going to get a new joinable NPC, then Paladin isn't the most urgently-needed gap to fill.

Fallen Paladin is not an advantageous idea, at least not for ToB. There's a way in SoA for a Fallen Paladin protagonist to regain normal (non-Fallen) status, and that could perhaps be extended to include a Fallen Paladin NPC. However, there's no such in-game mechanism in ToB, and staying permanently Fallen would make her a pretty gimped character.

DivineBlood said:

Id like to open a discussion on Caelar and if she was an NPC.

You realise that Caelar already is a joinable NPC in SoD, right? (Choose the right dialogue options at the start of the Final Battle of SoD, and she'll offer to join you.)

Making her carry over as a joinable NPC to ToB is just a subset of the wider discussions about carrying over the other new SoD companions into BG2ee.

DivineBlood said:

Now that Irenicus is dead, perhaps Skii Silvershield's Soul was released from the dagger.

Yes, there's some story potential in that. One of the more popular suggestions for strengthening the link between SoD and BG2ee is to add some eventual resolution to the binding of Skie's soul in the Soul Taker dagger.

Mush_Mush

Would be nice to have a quest chain in SoA to free Caelar but I imagine it would be too much time and effort for devs. Skie should have been recruitable from the start in SoD imo.

Gallowglass

Mush_Mush said:

Skie should have been recruitable from the start in SoD imo.

The trouble with that is that if she were recruitable, then she'd also be (prematurely) killable ... but the devs can't allow her to die mid-campaign, because she's needed for the end-of-game scenario.

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gorgonzola

I did not read the whole topic, just googled who Caelar is.
I suppose that the topic contains spoilers about SoD, if so I ask to the OP to add "SoD SPOILERS" in the tread title.
Thanks.

JuliusBorisov

I've edited the OP. Carry on.

gorgonzola

thanks!

DivineBlood

Gallowglass said:

You realise that Caelar already is a joinable NPC in SoD, right? (Choose the right dialogue options at the start of the Final Battle of SoD, and she'll offer to join you.).

Understood Gallowglass. But hows is 5 minutes of fighting with her help at the END fo SOD comparable to having her as an npc with lots of backstory and dialogue?

DivineBlood

gorgonzola said:

I did not read the whole topic, just googled who Caelar is.
I suppose that the topic contains spoilers about SoD, if so I ask to the OP to add "SoD SPOILERS" in the tread title.
Thanks.

My appologies sir.

Artemius_I said:

Skie... no. I'd rather not.

You're right. They took one of BG's most boring and shallow character and managed to make her even more unsufferable... I mean, for serious?

Artemius_I said:

At most, a bonus quest to free her from a fate worse than death, maybe.

Do we actually know that her fate is worse than death? Maybe she feel as though she was taking a nap...

Skii may be a boring npc. But her conection to Baldurs Gate and the Dukes can add a great story. Not evey NPC has to be rich and deep. The story surounding her could be what makes her interesting. She could be an NPC who can be shaped into many different characters through the child of bhaal's interactions and decisions. Her quests can also include interactions with the other NPCs from SOD that got left out. Similar to Xar and Monotron and Coran's apearances in BG2 SOA. It can give us closure.

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Francois

I don't feel Caelar needs anything more storywise. We already know the important details of her past and she made her own decision to do whatever she decides to do at the end of SoD to redeem herself (at least in the endings I've seen). I don't want to give any spoilers, but it feels right and bringing her in BG2 would feel wrong.

Now, Zaviak, I would pay good money to have in my party.

UnderstandMouseMagic

Artemius_I said:

Someone was planning on making a Caelar mod a couple months back. She's technically not dead though, not as far as the player knows.

Skie... no. I'd rather not. At most, a bonus quest to free her from a fate worse than death, maybe.

@Artemius_I

I've come to the conclusion that I am totally out of step with both the developers of SOD and most BG players.

So far Skie is the only character in SOD who I actually liked and then she gets killed for some very poor story twist.
Thing is, I dislike Imoen a lot, but Skie and the little dialog we got with her I really enjoyed, made me laugh. Would enjoy that character in BG2.

I obviously need therapy.

Gallowglass

Obviously one's personal tastes and reactions may be whatever they are, @UnderstandMouseMagic, but I'm pretty certain that the design concepts were that Imoen is intended to be likeable and Skie is intended to be rather irritating. So yes, you're probably correct in concluding that you're out of step with both the developers and the majority of players ... but that's fine, we're all different.

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TheArtisan

Guys! Stop treating my response like I don't want Skie alive because I dislike her. I actually don't. Not even SoD-Skie. From a story perspective, I just think having her alive would destroy any impact SoD left behind. You can argue how successful SoD's plot points were all you like, but the fact of the matter is Skie was intended to be a victim, and you don't simply go around undoing what you did to your victims.

Take Yoshimo as an example. I love the guy to death to the point where I think he would've made a perfect romance but I wouldn't want him resurrected. Granted, Yoshimo's betrayal/death is done much better than Skie but the point is the same. I don't treat characters entirely based on how much I like them. Want an example?

I played DA:2 and DA:I. I loved Hawke, I sacrificed him for Loghain. It made for a better drama (I'd say story but I have almost no doubt someone would get triggered) than killing Loghain because of dislike - not that I dislike him, I spared him for a reason after all.

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Gallowglass

GRRM is a very successful writer nowadays, and very busy. I imagine his fee to work as a hired gun on someone else's project would be ... large. Even game-industry giants probably couldn't afford him, let alone little Beamdog.

TheArtisan

@JonSnowIsAlive Hahaha. Y'know, I wouldn't say the 'return from death' thing doesn't work (Sarevok does does it reasonably well, he is literally too stubborn to fade entirely) albeit I haven't read Tolkien's books in a looooong time so I can't remember if Gandalf actually died or not... but I'm still not a fan of it myself.

To be fair, I don't think GRRM necessarily thinks resurrection is a bad plot device, just that (SPOILERS)

it shouldn't be without repercussions. Beric Dondarrion was resurrected multiple times, but with such horrific results that he would have preferred dying. Jon Snow (assuming the novels handles things the same way as the series) handles it better but he's clearly still affected. Don't even get me started on Lady Stoneheart... I think he just takes issue with Gandalf's aversion of becoming an Obi-Wan. (and yes I know Gandalf came first, but the point remains)

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TheArtisan

assuming the novel handles things the same way as the series

I did address that. The question I wonder is if he actually dies in the novel as in the series, as I can't imagine how GRRM would handle the discrepancy of a dead Jon in the novels vs a living Jon in the series, but then again, the series might just be going completely off-rail (Dorne, ugh) so who knows.

But anyways, this is not the GoT or Tolkien thread and I think the point's been made, so...

Matthieu

I'm a little late here, but couldn't we simply have her summoned by Solar or so in the pocket plane (don't remember who summons the NPC). She's not dead, just stuck in Avernus, if you play good aligned and could be summoned just like... dunno, Anomen.