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I don't think a good person would keep keldorn and maria apart.

24

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  • Yeah, that's why I gave him the boot. He just didn't act the way I picture a paladin really should act. Although the second time around, he made up with his wife, and wanted to stay with her, so I let him go. Either way, I don't want him in my party if he has the capacity to do such things.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @SirBundlesofJoy_1912 - it seems to me that you're trying to apply RL concepts of Good and Evil to FR.

    That doesn't work; FR is a different world with different morals derived from different religions, in which Good and Evil don't necessarily mean exactly the same as they do here in RL. Obviously there's considerable overlap with RL concepts, but it's a mistake to think it's the same.
    Grum
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 310
    Well... I guess elves are still on the table though right?
    KuronaButtercheeseThacoBellCrevsDaak
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 693
    Gallenger said:

    Well... I guess elves are still on the table though right?

    Killing elves is always all right :)
    ThacoBellCrevsDaak
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,461
    I like that the Keldorn romance mod actually took this dilemma into consideration and added an optional outcome where ...
    ... Keldorn returns to his family, seemingly for good, but after a while he shows back up. Apparently their marriage was so damaged that it couldn't be mended, so they broke up for good. This is even the requirement to start the romance, because if you order him to stay with you he doesn't realize his marriage is beyond repair and if you have Maria arrested he'll become too cynic about love (or something).
    Troodon80ThacoBellCrevsDaak
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 276
    ineth said:

    From my point of view, any human killing another human being is evil, no matter the circumstances.

    Your character won't get very far in BG2 (or similar games), with that attitude... :)
    Won't he? Do you even need to kill any humans to progress the main plot in BG2?

    (ToB is another matter, but killing Bhaalspawn is like recycling divine power, really)
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,461
    chimaera said:

    Do you even need to kill any humans to progress the main plot in BG2?

    I'd honestly like to see someone try to progress the game without killing anyone the game absolutely requires you to kill. Just relying on charm spells, running away, sneaking, pick-pocketing etc. No cheats/ exploits allowed.
    Troodon80tbone1
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 693
    edited December 2016
    There was a minimum-kill challenge on the BW forums. The final amount of kills can still be seen in this Gamefaqs thread.

    If you can't be bothered to open that link the player had to kill only 2 humans in SoA (Jaylos and Caehan), the rest of the body count (50) being monsters, vampires and Irenicus. ToB raises the number quite a lot, though.
    ButtercheeseTroodon80
  • crumbcrumb Member Posts: 11
    I guess I always assumed Keldorn will leave the party if his wife is jailed and her lover hanged. Is this not the case? And if he'll stay in your party if you choose to imprison the wife, does his epilogue in ToB change based on the way you handle the affair?
  • 7Vikks7Vikks Member Posts: 14
    edited December 2016
    Maria isn't exactly someone people should aim to please, considering she used the first opportunity to cheat on her husband. If you can't trust a woman to be loyal away from you then you shouldn't trust her at all. Honestly I just have him kill the noble guy then dump the woman
    profanitywarning
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,288
    There are a lot of couples in real life (with or without kids) where one or both spouses are in the military. I wonder if any of them might be reading this and have some insight into how a relationship between people with military duties works? I've heard of "military brats", which I think means kids that grow up on military bases, or who move constantly throughout their childhoods as the military parent or parents are reassigned.

    I imagine that for a lot of couples, the plan is to eventually quit the military and progress to a different stage in their lives. But some people make a career out of being a military sergeant or officer.

    It applies to analysis of Keldorn's situation because I see the two things as analogous. From everything I've read and seen in real life, infidelity is a pretty common problem when one spouse has to be away for an extended period of time.

    I guess the big difference is that western societies in real life don't use the law to criminally punish unfaithful individuals in marriages or for adultery, although some non-western societies still do. That's one of many sources of conflict in real world politics, as most western societies have progressed to the point where we believe oppression of women is universally and absolutely wrong, and is not excusable by culture.
    SirBundlesofJoy_1912tbone1Balrog99
  • qwerty123456qwerty123456 Member Posts: 67
    Kurona said:

    Interestingly, there is a retread of this quest in Dragon Age: Awakening involving a dying Grey Warden and a post-mortem letter. BioWare's message in both games seems to be this: "if you're really expecting a woman to sit at home patiently longing for you when you traipse everywhere all the time you are deluded and will get the horns sooner or later whether you realize it or not".

    That's is true. Of course, the same applies to a man.
    Anyway, most conceptions people have about gender relationships are really misconceptions.

  • StorytellerStoryteller Member Posts: 33
    edited January 4
    This is a very easy topic made unnecessarily complex by a lot of needless debate.

    As a Paladin, Keldorn has a hierarchy of loyalties: first to his God, second to his Order, third to his family.

    You may disagree. You may not like that. But that's the reality of the situation.

    If Keldorn should put down his sword and choose to fight evil no longer, for whatever reason, he has ceased to be a Paladin. He will live what remains of his years and then die. But while his God, Torm, would probably understand, Keldorn will not become the great hero he might have been by staying faithful to his responsibilities.

    In the epilogue, because he did not return to his family, Keldorn dies as an old man in battle. He is later described as always being at Torm's side when others have visions of the God, and that is because Keldorn's ultimate reward for staying faithful to his duty (Torm is literally the God of Loyalty) was to become an Exarch, possibly a Demi-God.

    That greatness comes at a price, and that is the self sacrifice necessary to uphold his calling.
    EnialusMeliamneMirandel
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 693
    Keldorn does return to his family after ToB. He was retired when the giants besieged Atkhatla. Of course he would fight them, everyone would die if not, including him and his family.
    Gallowglass
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 276


    In the epilogue, because he did not return to his family, Keldorn dies as an old man in battle.

    Whether or not he returns to his family depends on how you solve his quest. The epilogue only states that he retires to Athkatla, and that the battle with giants comes years later.
    KuronaThacoBell
  • unholy_avengerunholy_avenger Member Posts: 29
    I let her hang for cheating on her huspand, while he's out there fighting monsters and villains trying to make the world a better place. That's the law of the land, and as a Paladin it's Keldorn's duty to follow it to the letter.

    Honestly, she deserves it. She could have made her issues known to Keldorn. Instead, she jumps on the first greatsword that comes along. Same goes for the noble, what's his face, he knew the law and the penalty very well and he did it anyway.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,288
    Justice untempered by mercy and compassion becomes tyranny. It turns good on its head and makes it into evil.
    ThacoBellMirandelArctodusSkandii
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,322
    @unholy_avenger How exactly was she supposed to make her issues known? Keldorn is never home.
    Arctodus
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 276
    edited March 16



    Honestly, she deserves it. She could have made her issues known to Keldorn. Instead, she jumps on the first greatsword that comes along. Same goes for the noble, what's his face, he knew the law and the penalty very well and he did it anyway.

    From what I recall he didn't do much besides keep her and the kids company, because his 'greatsword' doesn't work anymore. He was substituting for their father, because Keldorn didn't feel obligated. Apparently lawful good means you can abandon your parental duties; those don't count.

    Though I'll admit that this "pick and choose" does fit Keldorn's character. He will happily chunk Viconia for being an evil drow, but will buddy up with Korgan, an evil dwarf who brags about killing and torture.
    ThacoBell
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 99
    chimaera said:



    Honestly, she deserves it. She could have made her issues known to Keldorn. Instead, she jumps on the first greatsword that comes along. Same goes for the noble, what's his face, he knew the law and the penalty very well and he did it anyway.

    From what I recall he didn't do much besides keep her and the kids company, because his 'greatsword' doesn't work anymore. He was substituting for their father, because Keldorn didn't feel obligated. Apparently lawful good means you can abandon your parental duties; those don't count.

    Though I'll admit that this "pick and choose" does fit Keldorn's character. He will happily chunk Viconia for being an evil drow, but will buddy up with Korgan, an evil dwarf who brags about killing and torture.
    Considering Keldorn says in the 1st section of his dialogue with his Wife that they both knew his 1st allegiance was to the Church and that it was a harsh taskmaster, i don't think you can really blame him for anything other than naively expecting his wife to barely see him, look after the kids and pine mournfully for him whilst he is off saving everything else apart from his marriage...which to be fair, assuming she said nothing to him up until this point, he would probably not realise needed saving.

    As for his alignment then in this situation i saw it as the Bhaalspawn being in a position to influence an emotionally vulnerable person in a time of high stress, if the end result is her jailed and the bed-warmer leaking claret then the jailing is actually entirely lawful, it's not like Keldorn personally locked her up, he just reports her to the authorities who enact the law.

    We also do not know what is considered lawful or even good regarding deliberately sleeping with a married woman, i mean there is a heck of a lot of bloodshed in the game for relatively little reason except they are in the way of the protagonist, acts that actually result in reputation loss are not that common and i see no reason why Keldorn as a Paladin would not expect a life-vow like marriage to be punishable by death if deliberately broken by someone who knew it was in place.

    I mean i totally get the argument that murder is evil, but in the context of the game that seems to only apply to Murder of someone completely innocent such as the several Cooks you see in places like Saerk's Home and at the Helmite Camp during Dorns quest. Heck you can butcher your way through an encampment of Helmite and Tormite Knights and Priests with Dorn, as long as you leave the cook alive it's only a 1 rep hit o:)

    Lets also remember you can just hurl some gold into a donation bowl to wash away your sins, haha. Slaughtering a Cuckold in cold blood, certainly Sir Keldorn, say Torm's Prayer three times and drop 1000gp you took from Firkraags Lair into the donation bowl for absolution ;)
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,322
    I like this quest because it sets up the classic "law vs. good" dynamic, and shows how it can be struggle for someone of that idealology to have to choose between two concepts they are pledged to.
    tbone1BelgarathMTH
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 276
    edited March 16

    Why shouldn't he be blamed, though? As you pointed out - he knew where his allegiances are, yet he still made the decision to father children. There is such thing as parental responsibilities.
    ThacoBellSkatan
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 99
    chimaera said:


    Why shouldn't he be blamed, though? As you pointed out - he knew where his allegiances are, yet he still made the decision to father children. There is such thing as parental responsibilities.

    I'm not saying he shouldn't be blamed, i'm just saying his duties to the church were always to come 1st and his Wife was aware of that. Of course knowing something in advance and living with it are not the same at all. The game also makes no mention of previous discussions, if any, the 2 had on the matter, all we see is he comes home and his Wife lays on a guilt trip to justify that she's found someone else and broken their vows.

    Personally i think he's a giant ass for not insisting to the Church he spends at least half his time with his wife and kids, it's totally unreasonable to swan off for months at a time seeking glory for the Church and expect her to have a pot roast waiting when he eventually returns home for a few days. Truth is we simply do not have a complete backstory to decide, for all we know he DOES spend half his time at home, maybe they did discuss things regularly and perhaps she always said she supported his role as a Paladin, but hoped he would choose her over the church. A not uncommon thought process that happens in many relationships lets be honest.
    Balrog99
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 629
    Yeah, his storyline is a classic 'needs of the many vs. the needs of the few' plot. I'm not sure there is a 'perfect' solution to it. Role play it as you see fit.
    ThacoBell
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 276
    edited March 17
    Borek said:



    I'm not saying he shouldn't be blamed, i'm just saying his duties to the church were always to come 1st and his Wife was aware of that. Of course knowing something in advance and living with it are not the same at all. The game also makes no mention of previous discussions, if any, the 2 had on the matter, all we see is he comes home and his Wife lays on a guilt trip to justify that she's found someone else and broken their vows.

    But his parental responsibilities are not towards his wife, but towards his daughters. His wife knowing about his allegiances is not an excuse, because we are not talking about his marital duties here. Same with their bad relations or his wife having an affair - all this doesn't change the responsibilities he has as a father. No one has to have children. But to have them, and then not to take care of them, is not very lawful good in my opinion.
    ThacoBell
  • unholy_avengerunholy_avenger Member Posts: 29
    ThacoBell said:

    @unholy_avenger How exactly was she supposed to make her issues known? Keldorn is never home.

    The Radiant Heart compound is in the same city, and it's not like Maria had to work or anything. She was a rich noble and she could have visited any time she wanted.
    chimaera said:



    Honestly, she deserves it. She could have made her issues known to Keldorn. Instead, she jumps on the first greatsword that comes along. Same goes for the noble, what's his face, he knew the law and the penalty very well and he did it anyway.

    From what I recall he didn't do much besides keep her and the kids company, because his 'greatsword' doesn't work anymore. He was substituting for their father, because Keldorn didn't feel obligated. Apparently lawful good means you can abandon your parental duties; those don't count.

    Though I'll admit that this "pick and choose" does fit Keldorn's character. He will happily chunk Viconia for being an evil drow, but will buddy up with Korgan, an evil dwarf who brags about killing and torture.
    Now, I don't remember the dialogue that well, but I don't remember anything about the noble having ED. All that was said was the Keldorn's wife was seeing someone behind Keldorn's back. And honestly, trying to take Keldorn's place with his children is even worse.

    As far as Viconia goes, well, she is objectively evil and she doesn't exactly hide it either.
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