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I don't think a good person would keep keldorn and maria apart.

even disregarding the dangers of chasing irenicus, keldorn is so old that he can't have more than a few years of healthy living in him. Seems like a no-win situation to me.
BelgarathMTHsemiticgod
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Comments

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,129
    A lawful stupid Paladin would argue that duty overcomes personal life.
    In D&D, Good does not necessarily mean kindly or benevolent, it may also mean following one's moral code regardless of circumstances, especially if paired with Lawful.
    waerjak
  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 191

    When I was playing this game, Keldorn went to his house and his wife told him he'd been cheating on her. I played it wrong, and the other guy ended up getting hanged and Keldorn's wife went to prison. (...)

    What's wrong with that?
    OrlonKronsteenGallenger
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 104

    Depends on how you define "good", I guess. IMO you could absolutely argue that one man's happy family life, while precious, is not worth more than saving the world from a megalomaniac madman chasing after godhood. Some people see just that sort of self-sacrifice as one of the highest forms of "good" there is.

    Keldorn was explicit enough about what a paladin should do about it.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 1,823
    I love this quest so much, showing a knight torn between family and duty. I will forever love how much effort BG2 took to subvert the "lawful stupid" alignment.
    ButtercheeseCrevsDaak
  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 191
    So there he is, this Keldorn guy, risking his life every single day for years on end for the greater good, and the good of the country and what have you, and he finally finds the time to visit his beloved wife and finds she's been spreadin' 'm for passersby because he didnt give her no attention...
    I say hang 'm both.
    Storyteller
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 605
    but it was an emotional affair not a physical one.
    ThacoBellGallowglassGrum
  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 191
    If it's big enough to discuss, it's worth a hanging. Or two .
    Storyteller
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 594

    but it was an emotional affair not a physical one.

    Hurts just the same.

    Anyways, I don't like keeping Keldorn apart from his family once they make up but it is worth to do it occasionally so you can see his epilogue. It's a mix of awesome and heartwarming.
    profanitywarningThacoBell
  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 191
    that like was for the first four words only.
  • NihilusNihilus Member Posts: 186

    When I was playing this game, Keldorn went to his house and his wife told him he'd been cheating on her. I played it wrong, and the other guy ended up getting hanged and Keldorn's wife went to prison.

    Wait, can this actually happen in the game? I thought Keldorn forgives his wife and her lover no matter what.
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 248
    You can give Keldorn that gentle push.
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 256
    I prefer to solve Keldorn's marital problems by feeding him to the zombies in the sewers. Never bought his "can't take care of my wife & kids, duty calls" excuse, considering there is an entire order of holy knights in Athkatla standing around doing not much.
    profanitywarning
  • SirBundlesofJoy_1912SirBundlesofJoy_1912 Member Posts: 57
    edited December 2016
    Profanitywarning,

    When I was playing this game, Keldorn went to his house and his wife told him he'd been cheating on her. I played it wrong, and the other guy ended up getting hanged and Keldorn's wife went to prison. (...)

    What's wrong with that?

    What's wrong with that? Is it good to kill a man for a stupid reason, and put a woman in jail for having an affair? If Keldorn truly loved his wife, he would want her to be happy, even if it was in the arms of another man.

    Keldorn is NOT lawful good. More like lawful neutral. He upholds the law, but the laws of that city are not "good" if they hang a man for having an affair.

    Maybe I'm too liberal, but can you imagine this country if these laws were implemented? Think about that. There'd be a lot of dead people who died just because they couldn't keep it in their pants.
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 248
    That's why moralism is so difficult and why the D&D morality structure has some obvious issues.

    For Keldorn in this situation to stay LG but also to jail his wife and execute her lover you have 2 considerations the lawful and the good.

    If the law calls for such things, your hands are essentially tied - with the exception that Keldorn can investigate the matter further and find that, for the most part, all 3 parties are at fault and no affair really occurred. At that point, as say a DM determining whether or not it's a violation of the LG alignment, you'd have to determine whether acting or not acting on the ability to investigate further constitutes an acceptable LG act or not. The lawful part of the alignment carries out the law - the good part makes *sure* (that's the hard part - what constitutes sufficient sureness) that the law is being applied correctly.

    To outright oppose capital punishment for adultery in Athkatla is a Chaotic position.
    profanitywarning
  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 191
    Well, in the real world I suppose you're right. In the Realms however, I think killing people for stupid reasons is just everyday reality. Cohrvale for example, tries to kill PC for standing in his way. Edwin wants PC to kill Rayic Gethras for investigating him. Anomen wants to kill a guy because his dear old dad hates him. Tolgerias wants PC to kill Valygar so he can enter the tardis. Ployer tries to kill Jaheira for exposing his business. The slaver guard at the front door tries to kill PC for asking questions. The fanatics in the Government District try to burn Viconia alive for being the wrong race. Killing people is about as common as clipping toenails. Everyone does it, and most do it for silly reasons. That being the case, I think hanging a man for unlawfully having a paladins wife is probably the most reasonable thing to do.
    Kamigoroshi
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 594
    edited December 2016
    @SirBundlesofJoy_1912 Keldorn is pretty confused during the whole quest, he's even the first to admit it. He doesn't think straight -- that's why he asks for Charname's opinion on the subject. There's no doubt the man has flaws but he's not that stuck-up (that would be Ajantis' job B))

    Edit: Also D&D alignment aren't that static. Even if refusing to apply the law in this case would be Chaotic Good, this wouldn't be enough to shift Keldorn's alignment. Ofc he's a Paladin and their code is stricter than simple LG, but Keldorn is a Paladin of Torm, god of justice, who is a tad more willing to pick Good over Law unlike, say, Helm.
    profanitywarningThacoBellGallowglassButtercheese
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 303
    edited December 2016
    A bit off topic but to some extent you could argue that death is pretty cheap in D&D, especially high magic settings. I mean, they have the whole afterlife/reincarnation thing going on (not to mention Raise Dead, Resurrection and Miracle/Wish). Contacting the dead seems pretty easy (low level arcane/divine casters can do it) and people can and do come back as spirits/undead.
    profanitywarning
  • profanitywarningprofanitywarning Member Posts: 191
    I don't think that's off-topic at all, @Nuin . The simple facts that A) Death is not the end and B) Death is hardly ever permanent could play a major part in considering wether or not someone should be put to death.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 1,823
    I have the view that when faced with a law vs good dilemma, Paladins should ALWAYS go for good.
    SirBundlesofJoy_1912
  • qwerty123456qwerty123456 Member Posts: 67

    but it was an emotional affair not a physical one.

    I don't recall that being mentioned.
    Not that it matters, really.
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,050
    ThacoBell said:

    I have the view that when faced with a law vs good dilemma, Paladins should ALWAYS go for good.

    Hehe, and I feel the direct opposite. If a paladin, who is part of an order with very strict codes, have to choose between lawful (following the code) or god (following the heart) he or she must always follow the code or risk being banned from the order. This is just my own interpretation though, I don't know if it's the correct on.

    And on the original topic I usually keep Keldorn. For me, him being part of the crew and sacrificing his personal life for the greater good is in line with his character. It's obvious that's what he has been doing most of his life, why would he suddenly change? For me it's not about choosing his wife or his job, it's about choosing duty uber alles. So a good charname can just as well keep him in the party in my playthroughs.
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 1,823
    @Skatan True, one could also say that the codes they follow exist purely to advance the cause of good, and when faced with a dilemma where they are mutually exclusive, the Paladin betrays the entire reason for their codes if they willingly choose law over good.
    SkatanSirBundlesofJoy_1912
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 248
    edited December 2016
    If you want to make it even more complex you could got with a simple Kantian analysis of Paladin Codes lol.

    If every paladin had to violate the code in order to be good - then the code itself is not good.

    Thus the Code must trump good or the code is not good.
    For an order paladin the code determines what is good or evil. For a freelancer paladin it would be different - since they would be motivated by their own sense of good.

    For a LN character - they're different from LG because the LG is motivated to uphold the law by a desire to do good, whereas the LN character is motivated by the law alone and would view circumventing that law in the name of good or evil as an excess.

    That's why this quest in particular is so interesting, because what you actually can force Keldorn into is to executing a man for having an emotional affair with his wife (because he is impotent), which falls outside of most definitions of adultery (unless you're for thought crimes - but those are hard to prove the existence of). He even tries to give Keldorn some advice on what is going wrong in his marriage. So you *do* force Keldorn into committing an evil act and veiling himself with the law because you kill a man, and jail a woman, without an actual crime being committed. That's the kind of thing a LE person would do :D

    As far as his staying or going. It depends on the PC's motivations. If your aims are ultimately good then Keldorn helping you provides a much larger service to "good" in general than sitting at home from a utilitarian point of view lol. If you ultimately end up doing lots of evil then well, no, it's definitely not best to stay with you lol. Plus you can take him back to visit his family fairly regularly throughout the game so - if anything that'll help him get adjusted to retirement instead of heading in cold turkey.
    ThacoBellBelgarathMTHSirBundlesofJoy_1912Buttercheese
  • SirBundlesofJoy_1912SirBundlesofJoy_1912 Member Posts: 57
    edited December 2016
    Keldorn DOES have choices, depending on how to respond to him. The first time I played, he went and had his wife jailed and the other guy killed. The second time, we went and talked to the guy, then Keldorn went home and talked to his wife and then asked if he could stay with her. I let him out of the group then.

    A law that imposes death for adultery is not a "good" law, in my opinion. Any law that decries that someone should die is not "good". Even for murderers and rapists and other horrible criminals. I know that the definition of good and evil can be different for some people. But to me, I kind of go by the Ten Commandments and Do Unto Others, and things in the Bible. So that is where my morality comes from. From my point of view, any human killing another human being is evil, no matter the circumstances. I just can't justify a paladin causing the death of a fellow human who really didn't do anything that terrible. And jailing his wife not only causes the wife to suffer, but the two kids as well. What will become of the children?

    I suppose you could argue that a "good" character wouldn't kill, even his enemies. Why is it considered a good deed to slay your "enemies"? What is the definition of an "enemy"? It's still murder, no matter the reasoning behind it.

    But I suppose then the game would suffer because you'd have paladins who were sworn to never kill.

    I just never liked Keldorn after that first run through. Like I posted above, I was horrified at his actions and booted him out of the group. If he was Lawful Neutral or any alignment that is not good, I wouldn't have been so shocked at his actions. A Lawful Neutral person will uphold the law above all else, whether those laws are just and fair, or tyrannical. They have that "just doing my job" mentality. The law is the law and there is no deviation from it, period. That sounds more like Keldorn to me. He is not a good person. Even Korgan doesn't stoop to such actions.

    I am so sick of seeing paladins portrayed as these pompous, arrogant jerks. They are portrayed like some "false" Christians, the type of people who are bible thumpers and always telling people that they're going to Hell in a confrontational manner. Or those "Christian" people who hate gays. A TRUE Christian is all about love and forgiveness, even to your enemies. A true Christian hates no one. Jesus didn't say "love your neighbor as you love yourself...except for gays, hookers, pedophiles...and anyone else you feel like throwing on this list".

    If you want to read how a paladin should truly act, read "The Deed of Paksenarrion" by Elizabeth Moon.

    If a Paladin is supposed to act like a pompous ass, then why do they need such a high Charisma score? Because they're supposed to be so loving and caring and awesome, that people want to be around them. Not because they are preaching fire and brimstone, or acting like an arrogant "holier than thou" douchebag.
    JuliusBorisovButtercheeseEnialusMeliamne
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 256

    Gonna flip it on you for fun, even though I have a lot of thoughts on the matter I probably ought to share rather than playing devil's advocate:

    I don't think a good person would let a megalomaniacal mage steal the soul of the offspring of an evil God to save his marriage.

    Except that's not a flip at all, because those two aren't equal.

    Charname is the party leader; they are the one to decide who joins their party. An NPC can leave if they are unhappy, but they can't force themselves on your party. And a good leader has a responsibility towards those who serve under their command.

    Keldorn doesn't "let" the crazied mage do anything, because he has exactly zero influence over Jon Bon's choices. At best you could discuss the question of Keldorn's duty as a paladin vs his responsibilities as a father, but even then it still comes back to: charname is the party leader and they make the decision.
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 604
    @chimaera

    Keldorn isn't a victim of the character's choices, however. As you say: he is entitled to leave whenever he wants if he is unhappy. Therefore to say that the character has done an injustice against Keldorn only applies if you believe Keldorn is not complicit in the protagonist's perception of what constitutes the good deed.

    If Keldorn perceived the protagonist's decision to keep him and Maria apart as not being good, then perhaps he would not come along. In any event, I daresay Keldorn would disagree with the OP.
    Buttercheese
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 256
    @recklessheart
    And I didn't write that. Keldorn chooses his paladin duties over those of a father and husband, but ultimately the decision as to whether accept his offer is charname's. Just because Keldorn and charname agree on what consitutes an acceptable sacrifice on their quest to defeat Jonny Boy, doesn't absolve charname from their responsibilities as the party leader.

    Personally I consider Keldorn a failed paladin and my good aligned characters (rare as they are :D ) wouldn't let him tag along anyway.
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