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I don't think a good person would keep keldorn and maria apart.

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Comments

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,159
    Skatan said:


    You're applying 21st century thinking to a medieval fantasy setting.

    And you are applying real-life Earth's catholic medieval thinking to a fantasy setting.

    Exactly.

    Also, frankly, applying modern thought to a medieval setting is not per se wrong. While it may affect individual culpability and responsibility, saying that they were not just in their treatment of women is absolutely accurate.

    Also, I find the whole "you knew the law, so you deserve the punishment" argument despicable. Laws can be unjust.

    Let us assume the medieval society description was actually accurate. Then we can also assume Maria was married to Keldorn at a very young age, had little to say in getting married to him and also has no legal way out of an unhappy marriage. How could anyone in these circumstances deserve hanging/jail for cheating?

    In game it is sort of hard to tell. We don't know how other Paladins manage their familiar responsibilites. We don't know if Maria was aware of what she was getting into (maybe she married Keldorn before he even joined the order). Maybe it is Maria who is wealthy and provides for the kids. Maybe she openly discussed her problems with the status quo with Keldorn before, and he did just not listen. Maybe he told her it would be different next year for the last decade. And we especially do not know the societal conventions about marriage compared to medieval or modern times.

    What we do know is that she did not really cheat behind his back. He might have not known about it, but she told him at the earliest possible moment. Somehow I have problems thinking someone deserves legal punishment for this.

    Let me also be open and say that I can't help but feeling that some of the posts in this thread have definite misogynistic vibes.

    ThacoBellBelgarathMTH
  • unholy_avengerunholy_avenger Member Posts: 29
    Skatan said:


    You're applying 21st century thinking to a medieval fantasy setting.

    And you are applying real-life Earth's catholic medieval thinking to a fantasy setting.

    Probably because the setting is largely based on medieval Catholic Europe. Also, I really doubt an Islamic society would treat a cheater any better. Or any other medieval society for that matter. As for in-game justification, Keldorn serves the god of loyalty. He has to enforce his god's tenets.

    @Ammar you're just making up your own headcanon now. Keldorn clearly says both he and Maria knew the church is a harsh taskmaster when they got married. There's also no indication she got married to Keldorn against her will. Remember, she said she still loves him.

    @jastey I don't remember it like that. Keldorn makes it clear the only way he can spend any meaningful amount of time with his family is if he retires.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
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  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 513
    chimaera said:


    You're applying 21st century thinking to a medieval fantasy setting. Fathers didn't take their kids to circus in those times, they worked from dawn till dusk to provide for their families. Raising the children was left to the mother, or in case of nobles, the servants and tutors. Keldorn provided for his kids better than almost everyone except royalty. On top of that, he was protecting them and the rest of Athkatla from all kinds of evil supernatural threats.

    I expect Maria to take responsibility for her infidelity, which means she goes to prison.

    I am not sure where you got this idea from. The noble takes the children to the circus, because he substitutes for their father... And so does Keldorn if you solve his quest by reconciling him with his family. That is literally the first thing he does: takes his daughters to the circus. You are applying your pseudomedieval ideas to Athkatla, but this doesn't work in a setting where women can become paladins as easily as men, and where the Talosian church stands next to the paladin HQs.

    Btw, considering that Athkatla is full of supernatural threats, I'd say the Radiant Heart is quite a failure in this regard.
    Taking the children to the Circus was not the issue lol. As for the Radiant Heart being a failure then i tend to agree, but that just reinforces the idea that their paladins are constantly required for missions to try and protect the Order's friends, i would say city but questing makes it quite clear that there are numerous neutral and evil factions that are not keen on the Order poking about the place. The Order largely exists to try and further the goals of the triad of Good Gods, with Evil Wizards, powerful thief guilds, hidden cults etc there's no end of missions for Keldorn.

    However, he's a Paladin, you don't get to renounce a lifetime vow to fight evil because the Missus is unhappy, especially when the Order is doing a heck of a lot to help his wife, big house, servants, schooling for the children and since he will make powerful enemies in his line of work, one can assume protection. It is also likely that the Church discourages Paladins from marriage to avoid such issues, there is no indication Maria married for anything other than love and both of them knew the sacrifices he would have to make, up to and including death.

    I would also point out that Divorce is a relatively new idea, certainly for the general population, most cultures had (or still have) severe penalties for infidelity. The quest even goes as far as Maria assuming Keldorn will kill the Merchant and being surprised when he showed leniency. So Maria clearly knew the expected punishment for her choice, both for her and the Cuckold.

    So it begs the question, if she knew the punishments, did it anyway, why is Keldorn being blamed IF you as the Bhaalspawn decide to nudge him into the more extreme (but totally legitimate) punishments? It's not about him being a bad husband/father, that is certainly true, it's about her making a CHOICE and having to deal with the consequences.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
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  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 513
    Dear Torm,

    Hey big fella, it's me, Maria. Just dropping you a note to say that vow i made 16 yrs ago, you know, the lifetime marriage vow, well, Keldi is not around much, i mean yeah i know both he and the church SAID that his 1st duty was to destroying evil and that meant i'd be raising the kids mostly on my own and i totally said that was cool n stuff because i love him, but it's actually pretty tough even with a huge house, servants to help, free school and plenty of cash.

    I mean it's great to have all those things, but Keldi is only around a few days every month and even though i totally promised to support him and the order by raising his kids and doing all i could to help in the fight against evil, i've decided to say screw you it's too hard and see someone else.

    I know you are the God of Duty, Loyalty, Obedience and Truth, but i'm a bored middle aged house-wife who feels under-appreciated so i'm going to ask you not to get too mad and smite me or anything. Oh, and please don't let Keldi kill Sir William of Thorpe, i mean i know his Duty commands him to do it, but he couldn't get it up so that shouldn't count, right?

    Love n Kisses

    Maria

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,069

    You're applying 21st century thinking to a medieval fantasy setting. Fathers didn't take their kids to circus in those times, they worked from dawn till dusk to provide for their families. Raising the children was left to the mother

    That is not how families worked in medieval times, that is how families worked in the 50's. You are the one applying modern 20th century thinking to the setting. In a medieval family both parents would work from dawn to dusk and nobody would take care of the children. The children would hang around their parents and learn the basics of their trade until they were old enough to work, after which they too would work from dawn til dusk. The were no "stay at home mums". Sure, they stayed at home, but so did the fathers: the home was the workplace of them both, whether it was a farm or a workshop.

    For non-nobiliity the custom of having wives' stay at home doing nothing for a living came into the world with the rise of the middle classes during the 17-19th centuries as a way of showing off how wealthy they were, and it didn't become commonplace among the broad majority until the economic booms of the 20th century made it possible for common people to afford it.

    Balrog99
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
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    ThacoBellSkatan
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,159
    @unholy_avenger Not only do you pick only certain parts of my argument, but you also miss the point.

    I am not making up head canon or saying this is what actually happens.

    What I am saying is that we do not know the details of the relationship between the two of them, what promises they might have made to each other in the past or what reasonable expectations they should have for the other person's conduct in their marriage.

    ThacoBell
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 513
    chimaera said:

    @Borek
    And that is why Keldorn becomes a fallen paladin if you convince him to retire and take care of his family, lol... Oh wait, that's not what happens. I guess the god of duty and loyalty actually approves of Keldorn fulfilling his marital and parental responsibilities. Shocking, I know. ;)

    I prefer to think Torm out-sourced the contract to Talos on the sly ;)

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,879
    @unholy_avenger In both replies to Ammar and me you take Keldorn's words for what he and Maria both think/did in their marriage. But Keldorn is biased himself, and he is blind to his marriage problems until Maria tells him. So, "Keldorn says that" is no proof here. He thinks he needs to retire to spend "an appropriate amount of time" with his family. That he could stay some days and overnight if he is back at the Order for rest now and then doesn't occur to him. He says he and Maria knew how occupying the Order would be when they married. Did Maria really? He courted her before and, I assume, had enough time for that back then. Maria surely has a right to believe that going on a lot of missions doesn't mean "not checking in even though staying around the corner for months".

    These are Maria's lines upon which I formed my opinion:
    "It has been two months since you were here last, and then it was barely for a day!"
    "Would you? Would you really? The guildhouse is right here in the city but even then I never see you."

    ThacoBellBelgarathMTH
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    I always thought ther was something dodgy about Keldorn never going home and instead staying with the men up the road.
    And I dare say there were plenty of raised eyebrows about that in the society. People like to gossip.

    Got to feel sorry for Maria though, she sure does have bad luck. One's not interested, the other can't.

    SkatanKuronaThacoBellBalrog99
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,120
    There is a slight complication in that Keldorn's 'job' can be assumed to be smiting evil day in day out like an aging Superman. Keldorn's situation is one of conflicting duties, to his family and as a Paladin. I think we can all imagine a rescue worker, a charity worker, or even a counterterrorist operative who becomes so wrapped up in tackling their duties that they don't give their family enough time. Perhaps on another level Keldorn is even scared of becoming a soft father who cares, in case it slows his (aging!) hand during a battle, or in case something happens which *only he* can deal with.

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    Or maybe since we're talking about a setting where evil is not just a concept, but a real driving force (which can manifest itself as demons and devils) being a full-time "cop" is so much more psychologically draining/scarring there than in real life, which is why Keldorn can't really get rid of his "I am the fist of Torm" persona without losing it. Hell, he's already starting to inch toward neutral good.
    That's why he spends most of his time "working", like investigating the Temple Sewers for weeks on end instead of gallivanting every which or way or just hanging out with the guys.

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  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403
    chimaera said:


    Why shouldn't he be blamed, though? As you pointed out - he knew where his allegiances are, yet he still made the decision to father children. There is such thing as parental responsibilities.

    Everyone knows that keldorns pullout game is weak.

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    You know, if you do a search for cop/military families/children you'll get a lot of cases very similar to this one. The psychology behind being married to someone who has basically pledged their lives to put other people/causes first is complicated.

    BelgarathMTH
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