Do you think that some spells are overrated?
unavailable
Member Posts: 268
I think most of the direct damage spells aren't so good, but that's because I play SCS I think. Enemies are smart enough that I want to use canon fodder, and mage killers syuch breach, pierce magic a lot. On top of this, I find the melee guys are very good at inflicting hurt, and that my mage has no need of adding to it. I'd rather memorize haste over fireball, breach or pierce magic over sunfire or cone of cold or any of them. I take lots of magic missle though, and abi dalzims horrid wilting in a chain contingency.
2
Comments
Also Druid spells, basically all of them.
For all other creatures (friend and foe alike) it actually decreases the usefulness of the buffs they have because time does continue to flow. As such the net gain is on the side of the caster alone. You do not decrease the damage output by your party except when you have a timed speed bonus or timed damage bonus in effect.
To me the spell protection spells are overrated. Often stoneskin or mirror image and an improved invisibility source is enough. And they take little time to recast.
I also think ADHW is overrated btw.
Anyways, Time Stop is more useful the fewer other party members you have, yeah. That's not to say it's not useful, though, since it gives you an advantage in action economy over your enemy when you can get three spells off without them responding, especially when that response could potentially disrupt your spellcasting. Anyways, it seems to me that a truly overrated spell is Ruby Ray of Reversal, as well as its related spell protection removers. You can get rid of spell immunity or spell trap or some sort of protection against spells with it, but only protections from spells that directly target the caster. If you're fighting a spellcaster, you shouldn't need to be using Flame Strike or Finger of Death or Dominate Person, not when Cloudkill or Horrid Wilting or Incendiary Cloud could be used instead, disrupting their spells no matter what protections they have (yes, even Protection from Energy, since immunity doesn't save you from losing your spells). Just stick to aoe's against enemy mages, and you'll kill them just fine.
However, once mods like SCS and/or SR enter into the picture, those spells suddenly become VERY useful, and if anything UNDERrated. Heck, I even stock up on low level stuff like Secret Word, just to get through the layers upon layers of protective spells enemies tend to stack (which, under these mods and depending on settings, actually do protect against things like area spells).
For some reason magical insects are apparently vulnerable to magical fire, for example, and yet people with stone skins can move around with zero penalty and (implicitly) can go about their daily routine/perform everyday tasks while holding exploding flaming meteors.
Among other things.
The spell isn't actually USELESS by any means (I may have exaggerated a bit there) but a pale shadow compared to the ridiculous recking it is in vanilla.
And yes there are instances in which the spells are effective, but again: 'overrated' != 'actually useless', and 'underrated' != 'the best thing since sliced gnome'.
Let's just drop this discussion, because it leads nowhere.
Ofcourse, when you are facing a high lvl mage, breach is your most important spell. But when facing tough brute enemies that are not overly magic resistant, damaging spells can still help a lot. Even ice storm can do quite damage if you stack a few of them on top of each other. 4 ice storms going equals 8-64 damage each round, no save.
I don't even need to defend ADHW, it speaks for itself. Even magic resistant foes like drows will feel the hurt every now and then, if you cast it on a group, one or two members will take the hit, and since they generally have low hps 1-2 hits are enough to take them out.
For these purposes, sorcerers are better adapted. A mage can not prepare a lot of cone of colds or sunfires cos he needs his breaches/spellshields too. But a sorc can have the cone and breach at the same time and decide which is needed more on the fly. I seem to have a newly grown love for sorcerers, so my opinion may be a bit biased.
The only thing that makes Secret Word vastly inferior to say, Ruby Ray of Reversal though, is the fact that it's useless again Globe of Invulnerability and more importantly, against Spell Trap (which almost every high level/TOB mage protects him/herself with).
That being said, Ruby Ray of Reversal is painfully expensive IMO (being a level 7 spell).
There are just too many seriously nasty spells at that level (Project Image
If reducing Time Stop to an area stun spell is the best you can do, then you clearly haven't been paying attention to the very many benefits of having three full rounds at your disposal.
Overpowered? Yes. Overrated? Hardly.
Why worry about your little party buffs wearing out, when you can single-handedly wipe the floor of almost any battlefield with your mage(s)?
If you're able to cast Time Stop, then you already have access to a huge amount of other nasty spells like Contingencies, Triggers, Simulacra and Images.
If you memorize Time Stop several times or have more than one mage/sorcerer in your party, you can time your Time Stops one after the other so that the battle will be over even before the enemy manages to land a single hit on your team.
Also keep in mind that Chain Contingencies, Spell Triggers and Spell Sequencers can be set during Time Stops. If you know what you're doing, those spells will be the deciding factor of any battle.
Have two mages cast Project Image and have those Images cast Time Stops and set up Triggers, Chain Contingencies and create Simulacra during those two synchronized Stops.
Or even better, get them to launch a Greater Malison followed by a few Wailing Banshees and Abi'Dalzim's Horrid Wilitings and tell me that Time Stop isn't A BIG DEAL.
If you really wanna have fun, try and combination of Time Stop + Improved Alacrity and enjoy the fireworks.
If you're in trouble during a battle, use Time Stop to cast a Wish spell and get all your team healed/restored + spells re-memorized. You'll still have time to cast two other spells after that and launch a ranged attack in between the castings.
If you're playing a cleric/mage, use your Time Stop to spam group/solo healing while the battlefield is frozen.
If you're playing a thief/mage or fighter/thief/mage, Mislead and Haste yourself, cast Time Stop and go slash your foes to bits with non-stop backstabs, then watch all the corpses collapse to the ground at the end of the Time Stop.
AC and To Hit dice don't count during a Time Stop. EVERY hit is a success.
Need I go on?
Instead of using Timestop to spam triggers, contingencies, images, etc. as you suggested, for example, why not just use disabling spells/anti-protection spells/summons/item abilities/etc. to strip enemies of their protections/undermine their defenses/keep them busy or hold their attention while your other party mates destroy them? It helps if you pre-buff, so enemy mages themselves have to work on removing YOUR protections first before they can do anything, too.
You can then argue that Timestop only really becomes indispensable if you are forced to fight fully prepared enemies with zero protections of your own, to buy you time to prepare your defenses.
Agreed.
There aren't THAT many occasions that warrant the use of Time Stops.
Unfortunately, I am one of those players you've described (the ones that pretty much know what each enemy spellcaster is going to do and where all the enemies are). Mods have greatly helped with that, rendering things considerably more complex and unpredictable.
In the vanilla game, liches and enemy mages always made such poor use of their Time Stops, IMO.
That being said, the practicality of the spell doesn't seem to be at trial here. The only reason I decided to step in it's defence is that it was being portrayed as a "negative", when in fact it can be a real life saver in solo games or smaller, less fighter-heavy parties.
Removing spell protections is always a must, but doing so within the safety of a Time Stop is even better, since the effects actually come into effect during the Stop itself, unlike most spell effects.
My appreciation for Time Stop grew considerably when I started using smaller parties on modded, Insane/hard games. But even in the vanilla EE and non-EE versions, the spell came in handy on more than one occasion.
It is true that Time Stop is not always warranted, but that's no reason to belittle it's effects or blurt out that it's "cons" outweigh it's pros.
Of course, as always, this is true for a generic setup of actual party usage etc. etc. If you're flying solo, TS is often quite the substantial gain (for obvious reasons).