NEVER INSULT MY QUEEN POISON!! Birdo and Poison are pretty much the same character?? As in the egg spitting mario Birdo dinosaur that no one really cares about? Erm.... on what planet are they even remotely similar >.>
They're both basically the same oversexed "trans/gay/lol they're basically the same anyway right" Japanese archetype. It shows up all over the place and anybody who's watched anime or read manga long enough will be very familiar with it.
I said I like Poison, I do. But she has as much to do with real trans people as Blanka does with Japanese Brazilians. Street Fighter is full of characters like that, in fact. Dhalsim shouldn't be used as a respectful icon of the portrayal of Hindus in media, either.
(Also, Birdo's a semi-major recurring Mario character and Yoshi's sometimes love interest. I'd be shocked if she wasn't wayyyy better known than Poison, who was relatively obscure until recent reappearences.)
I try my best not to giggle everytime someone throws up "sexy = sex object" train of thought. I mean I dress more skimpy than poison, I show off my assets (and I love whips too). I guess by progressive standards I am a male sex object? oh my...
Why, it's almost like real people are fundamentally different than fictional characters.
If Poison is not a sex object game character, you are pretty much denying that sex object game characters exist. I could make a better case for a half dozen Senran Kagura characters not being sex objects than Poison.
That being said, I'd rather not argue about just how much of a sex object Poison is portrayed as, though, so to bring it back to basics: It is indisputable, and any google image search will back this up, that sex is a primary component of her character design and portrayal. That is not true at all for Mizhena (who is portrayed, inasmuch as she is portrayed given her minor NPC status, as an erudite but bad-tempered devoutly religious person). Thus, the two are not very comparable (especially since Poison is a much older character who has appeared in many more games).
Oh, and her sexy spanking implement of choice is a riding crop, not a whip. Shame on you, your queen is disappointed.
Back on topic I don't see how a trans game character is irrelevant in comparison to another trans game character.
Because you have still not shown why any comparison are needed. Mizhena is a minor character with less than ten lines of dialogue in the game, and exactly one touching on her gender identity.
No other shopkeeper NPCs receive this kind of attention. I doubt most people who have argued about this could even name another one in the game. Why don't you compare every one of them to characters in other games? Why isn't Dynaheir compared to black representation in other games? Why is Mizhena so special? Why does she need analysis and nobody else does?
Especially when there isn't much comparisons to choose from due to trans characters still being "abnormal" in pop culture. The whole Mizhena fiasco didn't help the cause to normalize trans in art/gaming either (if anything it regressed it back a few years).
Okay, let's be serious here.
1) This game and forum are obscure. Literally nothing about SoD, including its existence, is known to the internet at large.
2) What press the game got was on Beamdog's side on this issue. Most of the people angry about it were the usual Gamergate/KiA suspects. These people are demonstrably a tiny minority of "gamers", who are a minority of art/gaming at large. They were also outnumbered by people who liked SoD in reviews where you needed to own the game to review it.
Homosexuality never been a problem in past fantasy games at all... People are not even criticizing her as character but more the potrayal of it and this is a legitimate criticism.....
Who remember Vivec from morrowind? Vivec was a living God in the morrowind settings also well known to be bisexual... In fact Vivec had sexual interaction with Molag bal himself beside that everyone loved Vivec as a character...
I really don't think people dislike that character in Sod just because is arguably a transgender but instead because the writing related to it did the mistake to give all the information in a simple line...
@Mebrilia I agree with most of what you said. Homosexuality has become normal in all forms of art and life. Transexuality on the other hand... to be blunt is considered as abnormal/weird. I wish this changed, then SoD happened which made it worse. I am willing to bet trans in art (and real life) won't be considered normal anytime in this decade. It is almost as if the so called progressives in the LGBT movement decided to ditch the T's in their race for equality in society. Hence I just call them LGB's, since those 3 letters is all they really seem to care about.
1) This game and forum are obscure. Literally nothing about SoD, including its existence, is known to the internet at large. 2) What press the game got was on Beamdog's side on this issue. Most of the people angry about it were the usual Gamergate/KiA suspects. These people are demonstrably a tiny minority of "gamers", who are a minority of art/gaming at large. They were also outnumbered by people who liked SoD in reviews where you needed to own the game to review it.
1) Ok (Though it sounds like bad marketing for a epic game-revival in the 21st century)
2) You mean the mainstream press that has lost almost all credibility with due to overt progressive bias (especially in America). Gawker, Vox, the wrap, polygon etc all looking down on us unwashed masses calling even moderate non-gg/kia gamers who dare criticize SoD as "transphobic bigots". Thank goodness for alternative media (the one mainstream calls "fake" lol).
Bad reviews isn't a prerequisite for any art to be a flop (ghostbusters kinda proved that). Trent also begged people for positive reviews, I have mixed feelings on this... Don't get me wrong in general I quite like SoD, but there is no way people demanding refunds, negative alternative press, virtue signalling, labeling gamers bigots etc is good for business.
Trent also begged people for positive reviews, I have mixed feelings on this...
I see this argument popping up now and then. Let's look at the actual Trent's post:
"Hi everyone. I usually spend most of my time lurking here, but I'd like to ask a favour. It appears that having a transgendered cleric and a joke line by Minsc has greatly offended the sensibilities of some people. This has spurred these people into action, causing them to decide this is the worst game of all time and give it a zero review score on Steam, GoG and meta critic. Now, I'd like to ask for that favour. If you are playing the game and having a good time, please consider posting a positive review to balance out the loud minority which is currently painting a dark picture for new players."
He has asked people who have been playing the game and having a good time to post a positive review in order to balance out 0-rated reviews based on Mizhena and Minsc's line.
Makes me wonder at what point does a animated human downgrade to a "sex object". Cammy is arguably the most sexy, provocative and revealing characters in the series, I wouldn't call her an object. Or is it just those fabulous red high heels?
If anyone is a "sex object" it would be Zangief... the tight red budgie smugglers...
@JuliusBorisov Mixed feelings indeed... Trent's speech was nice but I can understand if people felt it was a tiny bit desperate and/or patronizing. I am against both extremes with reviews, haters voting 0/10 and the fanboys giving 8/10 or higher. Both extremes are completely dishonest.
@Mebrilia I agree with most of what you said. Homosexuality has become normal in all forms of art and life. Transexuality on the other hand... to be blunt is considered as abnormal/weird. I wish this changed, then SoD happened which made it worse. I am willing to bet trans in art (and real life) won't be considered normal anytime in this decade. It is almost as if the so called progressives in the LGBT movement decided to ditch the T's in their race for equality in society. Hence I just call them LGB's, since those 3 letters is all they really seem to care about.
Even that is not totally true... Elminster the beloved super mage of the forgotten realms been also a woman... Sune during the disorders when the gods walked along mortal was a man.. To me the character in sod for what i seen for it feels forced for many reason...
Faerun is a high magic setting if i were a male wanting to be a woman i could simply search a way to swamp my gender "See that if the character in sod wanted just to switch gender that could lead in a interesting quest" in faerun you don't have to undergo with extensive and dangerous surgery to switch gender.... What you would do is find a magical way to swap in to the gender you feel belong... Because in the end is that... A transgender if had a manner to magically turn in the gender he/she wish would actually sign for it!...
And i also think including it presented like that is a bit of insult to the Forgotten realm lore but also to the writing itself.
Swapping genders is not something uncommon in forgotten realms...That how transgenderism is handled in forgotten realms...Surgery is used mostly for patching your wound after a fight if a cleric is not around... Divine Magic healing is something most used in a wide range of situation "Sickness..Mutilation... " and arcane magic allows you to swap gender....
@Mebrilia I agree with most of what you said. Homosexuality has become normal in all forms of art and life. Transexuality on the other hand... to be blunt is considered as abnormal/weird. I wish this changed, then SoD happened which made it worse. I am willing to bet trans in art (and real life) won't be considered normal anytime in this decade. It is almost as if the so called progressives in the LGBT movement decided to ditch the T's in their race for equality in society. Hence I just call them LGB's, since those 3 letters is all they really seem to care about.
Even that is not totally true... Elminster the beloved super mage of the forgotten realms been also a woman... Sune during the disorders when the gods walked along mortal was a man.. To me the character in sod for what i seen for it feels forced for many reason...
Faerun is a high magic setting if i were a male wanting to be a woman i could simply search a way to swamp my gender "See that if the character in sod wanted just to switch gender that could lead in a interesting quest" in faerun you don't have to undergo with extensive and dangerous surgery to switch gender.... What you would do is find a magical way to swap in to the gender you feel belong... Because in the end is that... A transgender if had a manner to magically turn in the gender he/she wish would actually sign for it!...
And i also think including it presented like that is a bit of insult to the Forgotten realm lore but also to the writing itself.
Swapping genders is not something uncommon in forgotten realms...That how transgenderism is handled in forgotten realms...Surgery is used mostly for patching your wound after a fight if a cleric is not around... Divine Magic healing is something most used in a wide range of situation "Sickness..Mutilation... " and arcane magic allows you to swap gender....
So if swapping genders is not uncommon, then why all the fuss about Mizhena frankly and confidently talking about it when answering a related question? That seems like a very setting-appropriate thing to do based on your post.
And Teo: I'm pretty sure most people would call Cammy a sex object as well. But hey, it's a fighting game. Having sexy characters kick each other around is kind of what they do. Guys have ridiculous muscles, girls wear next to nothing. It's not meant to be realistic. It's not meant to be immersive. You are the only person, that I know of who keeps trying to compare it to Baldur's Gate.
You are the only person, that I know of who keeps trying to compare it to Baldur's Gate.
I am not comparing anything to "Baldurs Gate", I am just comparing a t-char to a t-char. It is kinda poetic comparing the most adored, high effort T-girl in gaming history to the most hated, effort lacking T-girl in gaming history. Not that there are many examples to choose from since trans girls in both gaming and society is still "abnormal". SoD could have helped that cause, but they chose to do the opposite.
And Teo: I'm pretty sure most people would call Cammy a sex object as well. But hey, it's a fighting game. Having sexy characters kick each other around is kind of what they do. Guys have ridiculous muscles, girls wear next to nothing. It's not meant to be realistic. It's not meant to be immersive.
I don't think you should talk on behalf of "most" people as "most" people don't go around wearing progressive tinted glasses labeling everything they see to their holier-than-thou PC standards. "wow that cheerleader is wearing a miniskirt, what a sex object! She needs empowerment!" ....yeah outside of far-left progressive social groups that just doesn't happen lol
So if swapping genders is not uncommon, then why all the fuss about Mizhena frankly and confidently talking about it when answering a related question
Pretty sure he answered that, gender dysphoria doesn't fit the lore of a high magic body altering world. Even if it could at the very least we deserved an explanation as to why she refuses magical aid.
Furthermore I add that the first trans by choice lady in BG history deserved to be more than minor token with more dialogue options than "oh that's nice". There is no need to white-knight shield a trans from the harsh world of ADnD.
I personally role play my games on first play through as I would in real life. From all the information (or lack of) we have of it seems Mizhena is just a crossdresser? I might be a dinosaur for saying this but if this is true than I consider that lazy and prideless especially for a high-magic world. Picking a tomboy-ish subclass like a Tempus cleric also sounds idiotic for someone trying to be a woman/female-like. So both my rpg and real-world dialogue with her would probably be rude/jerk unless she showed tremendous desire to improve her lazy self (in which case I would be either neutral or even romantic/flirty). I know a BIG critique of the game was lack of dialogue options for Mizhena, many people at the very least wanted an "evil/jerk" option for various reasons much different from mine. So why not just give it to them? Giving people incentive to make a mod for Mizhena could have also easily fixed a lot of her critique.
You are the only person, that I know of who keeps trying to compare it to Baldur's Gate.
I am not comparing anything to "Baldurs Gate", I am just comparing a t-char to a t-char. It is kinda poetic comparing the most adored, high effort T-girl in gaming history to the most hated, effort lacking T-girl in gaming history. Not that there are many examples to choose from since trans girls in both gaming and society is still "abnormal". SoD could have helped that cause, but they chose to do the opposite.
And Teo: I'm pretty sure most people would call Cammy a sex object as well. But hey, it's a fighting game. Having sexy characters kick each other around is kind of what they do. Guys have ridiculous muscles, girls wear next to nothing. It's not meant to be realistic. It's not meant to be immersive.
I don't think you should talk on behalf of "most" people as "most" people don't go around wearing progressive tinted glasses labeling everything they see to their holier-than-thou PC standards. "wow that cheerleader is wearing a miniskirt, what a sex object! She needs empowerment!" ....yeah outside of far-left progressive social groups that just doesn't happen lol
So if swapping genders is not uncommon, then why all the fuss about Mizhena frankly and confidently talking about it when answering a related question
Pretty sure he answered that, gender dysphoria doesn't fit the lore of a high magic body altering world. Even if it could at the very least we deserved an explanation as to why she refuses magical aid.
Furthermore I add that the first trans by choice lady in BG history deserved to be more than minor token with more dialogue options than "oh that's nice". There is no need to white-knight shield a trans from the harsh world of ADnD.
I personally role play my games on first play through as I would in real life. From all the information (or lack of) we have of it seems Mizhena is just a crossdresser? I might be a dinosaur for saying this but if this is true than I consider that lazy and prideless especially for a high-magic world. Picking a tomboy-ish subclass like a Tempus cleric also sounds idiotic for someone trying to be a woman/female-like. So both my rpg and real-world dialogue with her would probably be rude/jerk unless she showed tremendous desire to improve her lazy self (in which case I would be either neutral or even romantic/flirty). I know a BIG critique of the game was lack of dialogue options for Mizhena, many people at the very least wanted an "evil/jerk" option for various reasons much different from mine. So why not just give it to them? Giving people incentive to make a mod for Mizhena could have also easily fixed a lot of her critique.
Wow. "the most adored, high effort T-girl in gaming history to the most hated, effort lacking T-girl in gaming history."
What are you even talking about? Who adores Poison? How is she "high effort", and how is Mizhena "the most hated"?
How can you lambast me for using "most" when you claim that Poison is the "most" adored and Mizhena is the "most" hated? Hypocrisy, much?
And how is Mizhena the most effort lacking *when she has in-game dialogue and a backstory, while POISON DOESN'T*?
Here's the difference. I'm going to break it down for you.
(1) Poison wears almost no clothes and doesn't speak. You adore her. (2) Mizhena wears proper clothing, and does speak. You hate her. (3) You say 'the first trans by choice lady in BG history deserved to be more than minor token with more dialogue options than "oh that's nice".'
So why is it that Mizhena deserves to be put on such a pedestal...but Poison doesn't? She got the same exact treatment as everyone else in the game (Ie: Put into almost no clothing and fights without dialogue). Mizhena got the exact same treatment as any other NPC in the game. But by your logic, Mizhena needs to be made into something so much more because she was the "first", while Poison (who came even before) didn't need that treatment?
---
And finally, because your constant attacks against progressives is starting to chip away at my sanity (seriously, why do you need to attack progressives every other post?)
"Pretty sure he answered that, gender dysphoria doesn't fit the lore of a high magic body altering world. Even if it could at the very least we deserved an explanation as to why she refuses magical aid. "
All Mizhena said is that she changed her name. We don't know if she used magic body altering magic. She simply answered our question. And even if she didn't get magical aid, it is because magic is really god damned freaking expensive. It's the same reason why in Throne of Bhaal raising the peasant gives you a reputation point. He says that there is no way he could have afforded that. NOT EVERYONE COULD AFFORD MAGIC. So why is this a god damned issue?
Ok, deep breath.
Sure. The problem, as per your spoiler, is that you couldn't get a jerk to the first transsexual NPC you come across. Yeah. Beamdog should have put that in.
not going to post any pictures but tel aviv is a mecca for gay men (no pun intended)
edit- the only person that made complete sense was the one who said being transgender doesn't necessarily mean you transition completely. thanks for that, more people should be that open-minded.
Comments
I said I like Poison, I do. But she has as much to do with real trans people as Blanka does with Japanese Brazilians. Street Fighter is full of characters like that, in fact. Dhalsim shouldn't be used as a respectful icon of the portrayal of Hindus in media, either.
(Also, Birdo's a semi-major recurring Mario character and Yoshi's sometimes love interest. I'd be shocked if she wasn't wayyyy better known than Poison, who was relatively obscure until recent reappearences.) Why, it's almost like real people are fundamentally different than fictional characters.
If Poison is not a sex object game character, you are pretty much denying that sex object game characters exist. I could make a better case for a half dozen Senran Kagura characters not being sex objects than Poison.
That being said, I'd rather not argue about just how much of a sex object Poison is portrayed as, though, so to bring it back to basics: It is indisputable, and any google image search will back this up, that sex is a primary component of her character design and portrayal. That is not true at all for Mizhena (who is portrayed, inasmuch as she is portrayed given her minor NPC status, as an erudite but bad-tempered devoutly religious person). Thus, the two are not very comparable (especially since Poison is a much older character who has appeared in many more games).
Oh, and her sexy spanking implement of choice is a riding crop, not a whip. Shame on you, your queen is disappointed.
No other shopkeeper NPCs receive this kind of attention. I doubt most people who have argued about this could even name another one in the game. Why don't you compare every one of them to characters in other games? Why isn't Dynaheir compared to black representation in other games? Why is Mizhena so special? Why does she need analysis and nobody else does? Okay, let's be serious here.
1) This game and forum are obscure. Literally nothing about SoD, including its existence, is known to the internet at large.
2) What press the game got was on Beamdog's side on this issue. Most of the people angry about it were the usual Gamergate/KiA suspects. These people are demonstrably a tiny minority of "gamers", who are a minority of art/gaming at large. They were also outnumbered by people who liked SoD in reviews where you needed to own the game to review it.
Who remember Vivec from morrowind? Vivec was a living God in the morrowind settings also well known to be bisexual... In fact Vivec had sexual interaction with Molag bal himself beside that everyone loved Vivec as a character...
I really don't think people dislike that character in Sod just because is arguably a transgender but instead because the writing related to it did the mistake to give all the information in a simple line...
@Mebrilia I agree with most of what you said. Homosexuality has become normal in all forms of art and life. Transexuality on the other hand... to be blunt is considered as abnormal/weird.
I wish this changed, then SoD happened which made it worse. I am willing to bet trans in art (and real life) won't be considered normal anytime in this decade. It is almost as if the so called progressives in the LGBT movement decided to ditch the T's in their race for equality in society. Hence I just call them LGB's, since those 3 letters is all they really seem to care about. 1) Ok (Though it sounds like bad marketing for a epic game-revival in the 21st century)
2) You mean the mainstream press that has lost almost all credibility with due to overt progressive bias (especially in America). Gawker, Vox, the wrap, polygon etc all looking down on us unwashed masses calling even moderate non-gg/kia gamers who dare criticize SoD as "transphobic bigots". Thank goodness for alternative media (the one mainstream calls "fake" lol).
Bad reviews isn't a prerequisite for any art to be a flop (ghostbusters kinda proved that). Trent also begged people for positive reviews, I have mixed feelings on this...
Don't get me wrong in general I quite like SoD, but there is no way people demanding refunds, negative alternative press, virtue signalling, labeling gamers bigots etc is good for business.
"Hi everyone. I usually spend most of my time lurking here, but I'd like to ask a favour. It appears that having a transgendered cleric and a joke line by Minsc has greatly offended the sensibilities of some people. This has spurred these people into action, causing them to decide this is the worst game of all time and give it a zero review score on Steam, GoG and meta critic. Now, I'd like to ask for that favour. If you are playing the game and having a good time, please consider posting a positive review to balance out the loud minority which is currently painting a dark picture for new players."
He has asked people who have been playing the game and having a good time to post a positive review in order to balance out 0-rated reviews based on Mizhena and Minsc's line.
If anyone is a "sex object" it would be Zangief... the tight red budgie smugglers...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@JuliusBorisov Mixed feelings indeed... Trent's speech was nice but I can understand if people felt it was a tiny bit desperate and/or patronizing. I am against both extremes with reviews, haters voting 0/10 and the fanboys giving 8/10 or higher. Both extremes are completely dishonest.
Elminster the beloved super mage of the forgotten realms been also a woman... Sune during the disorders when the gods walked along mortal was a man.. To me the character in sod for what i seen for it feels forced for many reason...
Faerun is a high magic setting if i were a male wanting to be a woman i could simply search a way to swamp my gender "See that if the character in sod wanted just to switch gender that could lead in a interesting quest" in faerun you don't have to undergo with extensive and dangerous surgery to switch gender.... What you would do is find a magical way to swap in to the gender you feel belong... Because in the end is that... A transgender if had a manner to magically turn in the gender he/she wish would actually sign for it!...
And i also think including it presented like that is a bit of insult to the Forgotten realm lore but also to the writing itself.
Swapping genders is not something uncommon in forgotten realms...That how transgenderism is handled in forgotten realms...Surgery is used mostly for patching your wound after a fight if a cleric is not around... Divine Magic healing is something most used in a wide range of situation "Sickness..Mutilation... " and arcane magic allows you to swap gender....
And Teo: I'm pretty sure most people would call Cammy a sex object as well. But hey, it's a fighting game. Having sexy characters kick each other around is kind of what they do. Guys have ridiculous muscles, girls wear next to nothing. It's not meant to be realistic. It's not meant to be immersive. You are the only person, that I know of who keeps trying to compare it to Baldur's Gate.
"wow that cheerleader is wearing a miniskirt, what a sex object! She needs empowerment!"
....yeah outside of far-left progressive social groups that just doesn't happen lol
Furthermore I add that the first trans by choice lady in BG history deserved to be more than minor token with more dialogue options than "oh that's nice". There is no need to white-knight shield a trans from the harsh world of ADnD.
None:
- Guilty Gear
- BlazBlue
- Mortal Kombat
- Smash
- Persona 4 Arena Ultimax
- Killer Instinct
Some:- Skullgirls
- Tekken
- Virtua Fighter
- KOF
More than some but still not SUPER terrible:- Injustice
- Marvel vs Capcom
Jesus christ why:- Dead or Alive
- Soul Calibur
- Street Fighter
- WWE 2K17
- Darkstalkers
Hope this objective chart will help in the future discussion.What are you even talking about? Who adores Poison? How is she "high effort", and how is Mizhena "the most hated"?
How can you lambast me for using "most" when you claim that Poison is the "most" adored and Mizhena is the "most" hated? Hypocrisy, much?
And how is Mizhena the most effort lacking *when she has in-game dialogue and a backstory, while POISON DOESN'T*?
Here's the difference. I'm going to break it down for you.
(1) Poison wears almost no clothes and doesn't speak. You adore her.
(2) Mizhena wears proper clothing, and does speak. You hate her.
(3) You say 'the first trans by choice lady in BG history deserved to be more than minor token with more dialogue options than "oh that's nice".'
So why is it that Mizhena deserves to be put on such a pedestal...but Poison doesn't? She got the same exact treatment as everyone else in the game (Ie: Put into almost no clothing and fights without dialogue). Mizhena got the exact same treatment as any other NPC in the game. But by your logic, Mizhena needs to be made into something so much more because she was the "first", while Poison (who came even before) didn't need that treatment?
---
And finally, because your constant attacks against progressives is starting to chip away at my sanity (seriously, why do you need to attack progressives every other post?)
"Pretty sure he answered that, gender dysphoria doesn't fit the lore of a high magic body altering world. Even if it could at the very least we deserved an explanation as to why she refuses magical aid. "
All Mizhena said is that she changed her name. We don't know if she used magic body altering magic. She simply answered our question. And even if she didn't get magical aid, it is because magic is really god damned freaking expensive. It's the same reason why in Throne of Bhaal raising the peasant gives you a reputation point. He says that there is no way he could have afforded that. NOT EVERYONE COULD AFFORD MAGIC. So why is this a god damned issue?
Ok, deep breath.
Sure. The problem, as per your spoiler, is that you couldn't get a jerk to the first transsexual NPC you come across. Yeah. Beamdog should have put that in.
edit- the only person that made complete sense was the one who said being transgender doesn't necessarily mean you transition completely. thanks for that, more people should be that open-minded.