Even if you had a particular problem with mizhena., you couldnt look past no matter what. Does that take precedence over everything else in sod? Because thats what it feels like to me whenever i read stuff about mizhena. Im not fond of calling anyone a bigot, but i do think peoples priorities are messed up imo.
Let's even assume this, to anyone who doesn't like it. YOU are the writer. It is pre-launch. She is a minor NPC. There isn't time or budget to expand her into anything else. There isn't even inclination because the shit storm hasn't happened yet. Given the space restraints, what exactly would you have written?
How about ditching the "empowered" Safana? Give a nobody npc like Safana the minor role and use the time gained to instead flesh out a Mizhena as the major "empowered" one. (Oh yeah I almost forgot, whatever happens don't ever tell concerned/angry customers that "We don't care what you think")
With that said, could someone please show me what about the dialogue itself is problematic? As in, an exact quote and how you would have changed it?
To be fair to @MakeAthkatlaGrtAgain, he has actually done this already - a few posts above, he says exactly what Mizhena should (in his opinion) have said instead of the current content. His suggestion doesn't answer the question (about Mizhena's name) which triggers this exchange, so it's not actually adequate as a substitute ... but something like the second half of Mizhena's existing statement could be added (although that, too, could be better written), and then it'd make more sense.
Now, as to why the dialogue is problematic ... okay, I'll have a go at explaining. Mizhena's one controversial dialogue is so minor in the game that it seems scarcely worth the trouble of writing a wall of text (FFS, I can't understand why anyone cares about this so ruddy much that we have to keep on discussing it!) ... but the question was asked, and I can't answer properly without the wall of text. I'll break it into three sections to make it easier.
Then at the end (if anyone is still reading by then ), I'll offer a suggestion about how a transgender character might have been handled better.
1. Too Much Information
I'm sure someone must have pointed out before what's actually so jarringly out-of-place about Mizhena's declaration of sexual identity, but (surprisingly) I can't recall seeing it, so maybe it still needs saying that it's the in-your-face indiscretion of Too Much Information.
For comparison, consider our first meeting with Dorn, who is also a member of a sexual minority group. Does he announce "My name is Dorn Il-Khan. I'm bisexual!"? No, he doesn't do that. We meet, we find out various things about him, we get to know him somewhat, and then we may (or indeed may not) eventually also happen to find out about his sexual orientation ... and if we're playing through the full series, then his orientation isn't very obvious in BG1ee, so we've probably known him for quite a while before it becomes clear. That's fine, it seems a reasonably natural sequence of events, it feels sufficiently similar to the RL social interaction of getting to know someone that it doesn't seem ridiculously forced, it's just one datum among many things we find out in the course of getting to know him ... and at the time we find out, it's actually relevant information for us to know, because he's then an in-game romance option.
Mizhena, though, is different. In our very first meeting, if we enquire about her (allegedly) unusual name, then she immediately announces her transgender identity, as if she's just bursting to tell everyone about it right away, as if it's something which we ought to be desperately anxious to know about ... rather than an intimate personal matter which most of us would regard as none of our business, unless and until we have some sort of established friendship, or some other actual reason for the information to be relevant and appropriate.
So that's why it's jarringly out-of-place. Of course I realise that, to some people, sudden intimate revelations to strangers might not seem to be the behaviour of a screwball weirdo, but I do wish more of those people (who don't personally find it very odd) could nevertheless come to understand that there are clearly many other people to whom such behaviour is shockingly weird.
2. Placard Waving
Of course, there's one RL situation in which (in some but not all cultures) we're accustomed to random strangers bursting to tell everyone about their sexual identity or orientation (or indeed some other matter which would ordinarily be no-one else's business). That's when there's some sort of public protest or demonstration, in which those involved are waving placards identifying themselves with the issue. Such demonstrations are the only obvious context in which Mizhena's in-your-face behaviour relates to ordinary RL experience. (Well, some people's RL experience may differ, but average Jo(e)-in-the-Western-street isn't likely to see such proclamations of intimate details except when protestors march past ... and in some cultures, such behaviour is unlikely ever to be seen at all.)
This is why the way Mizhena was written looks very like a blatant placard-waving exercise, and it's nigh impossible to believe that the writers didn't know and intend that it would be seen as such.
3. Denigrating Transgender Persons
Making the only overtly transgender character one who shoves unnecessary intimate revelations in the faces of random strangers, like some crazy weirdo on a street corner, is imposing a pretty nasty stereotype on transgender people. Luckily it's only a tiny incident in a large game, but it's still gratuitously offensive.
This is not actually how RL transgender people generally behave in my experience. On the contrary, transgender people whom I've met (and whom I've known to be transgender) mostly want to be ordinary folks, not standing out from the crowd with a target on their backs, and not discussing their transgender identity without a reason. I've certainly met more transgender people who would rather be invisible than wave a placard. (And of course, there may also be numerous other transgender people whom I've met in passing, who blended in so well that I never knew they were transgender ... which is probably exactly how they wanted it to be.)
Stereotyping transgender people as weirdoes is probably not what the writers intended, but counter-productive consequences are a frequent result of ham-fisted tokenism. I expect that numerous RL transgender people are furious at the portrayal of Mizhena, and mortified at the wide attention it has received ... but none of my own RL transgender acquaintances (SFAIK) are gamers, so they haven't seen any of this controversy. (Lucky them!)
How A Transgender Character Might Have Been Handled Better
Mizhena simply as a travelling priest/quest-interviewee with no transgender dialogue.
Instead, in Korlasz's Tomb, Imoen talks to our protagonist:-
Imoen: "By the way, Charname, did you ever realise that Puffguts used to be a woman?"
Charname: "Eh? Puffguts? Oh, yes, I remember, that's what you used to call old Winthrop at the Candlekeep Inn. A woman, really? No, I don't believe it!"
Imoen: "It's true, though. I accidentally saw some old paperwork when I was busy making his hotel as clean as an elven arse ... and, well, there it was: he grew up as a girl!"
Charname: "Oh! Well, you're full of surprises, I'd never have guessed that. Are you sure you're not just teasing me again? But come on, we've got to get on with our job here. Onward!"
And that's it. You're told that a well-known character was transgender all along, but with no inappropriate blurting of intimate details, a smaller placard, no nasty stereotyping, and Winthrop left to live as he wishes. And probably much less controversy to damage Beamdog's business.
(But that's not what they did, and this isn't how they'll change it in the patch.)
Thank you to Gallowglass for your reply. Glad to have something constructive to talk about. I have 2 issues though...
(1) Dorn is a full party NPC. Is it fair to compare him to Winthrope? (2) Your approach does the following: (2a) It calls the information into question. Is Imoen joking? Is the info real? Who knows! (2b) It makes Winthrope's transgenderism into something abnormal. It becomes a rumor. (2c) It takes away the confidence of Winthrope. Instead of stating matter of factly, Winthrope now keeps it a secret that is discovered. That makes a very different characterization.
That's my take at least. If the above is wrong, I'd be happy to discuss.
Also you say that:
"Making the only overtly transgender character one who shoves unnecessary intimate revelations in the faces of random strangers, like some crazy weirdo on a street corner, is imposing a pretty nasty stereotype on transgender people. Luckily it's only a tiny incident in a large game, but it's still gratuitously offensive."
How is this the case? In the screenshot I provided Charname asked a question and she answered. How is that shoving anything? And what did she do that makes her a weirdo on a street corner? If being transgender isn't something to be ashamed about, then what exactly did she do wrong?
This is pretty ironic. By refusing to portray a character that (perhaps too) openly inform others about their own gender, it's creating another stereotype that a transgender must not be a weirdo. Not all priests are fanatics and it's ok to portray fanatic priests. Not all transgender a weirdo but it's not ok to portray a weirdo transgender.
That's all the dialogue there is. Please tell me exactly what is objectionable and an example of what could be done in the same amount of space that wouldn't be. Because it has been made exceedingly clear that this is the space limit for minor NPCs, which she is. And surely you agree that a minor NPC can be transgender, right?
Change the name "Mizhena" for something that would prompt charname to ask about it. That's all.
Though it would be better if in future encounters, having had the conversation about the name, the dialog changed rather than being repeated. But I understand that might have something to do with constraints to coding ect. (stuff I really am clueless about). At the moment it's a bit like the Thalantyr convo, every bloody time you have to endure the intro.
So true aye, every time you click Mizhena she keeps just reloops her introduction lol!
I don't care if she is a "weirdo" or not. However If beamdog wants to force LGBT tokens into games to show off how "progressive" they are... they should at least try to put some effort into it.
As for this new patch that will supposedly "update" Mizhena, from what I have read it doesn't sound like it will do much. I wager they will just stop the reloop and shove in a extra line or two of dialogue, while patting themselves on the back for the half-assed effort... I hope I am proven wrong here
"Though it would be better if in future encounters, having had the conversation about the name, the dialog changed rather than being repeated. But I understand that might have something to do with constraints to coding ect. (stuff I really am clueless about). At the moment it's a bit like the Thalantyr convo, every bloody time you have to endure the intro. "
i've worked with the IE engine code quite a bit and there is certainly no such restriction. The engine is pretty flexible with what it allows you to do, actually.
As people have pointed out before, it's very common--indeed, quite standard--for RPC characters to give personal details and even secrets to the player with little or no prompting. The Infinity Engine games are no exception.
In BG1, there's a guy who talks about his marital and sexual problems without any prompting whatsoever.
In BG2, Solaufein tells you all about his relationship with Phaere, and you don't even need to ask him. All you have to do is not announce that you're going to kill him.
In IWD, Belhifet tells you all about his secret plans for no reason.
In IWD2, there's a prisoner who is quite frank and graphic about his sexual experiences with the yuan-ti half-breeds. Sherincal tells you all about her ancestry and her motives even though she's about to kill you. And there's even a priest of Bane who confesses to you that he has grown disillusioned with his faith, and he agrees to betray his superiors by helping you, an enemy spy. All you have to do is ask him a single vague question and he tells you everything.
If characters don't tell you about themselves, they have zero personality. In order for characters to show their personality, they need to be more open about themselves than people in real life.
Characters tell you intimate secrets. They tell you embarrassing secrets. They tell you incriminating secrets, stuff that could get them killed or worse. And the player never has to dig for that information.
As people have pointed out before, it's very common--indeed, quite standard--for RPC characters to give personal details and even secrets to the player with little or no prompting. The Infinity Engine games are no exception.
In BG1, there's a guy who talks about his marital and sexual problems without any prompting whatsoever.
In BG2, Solaufein tells you all about his relationship with Phaere, and you don't even need to ask him. All you have to do is not announce that you're going to kill him.
In IWD, Belhifet tells you all about his secret plans for no reason.
In IWD2, there's a prisoner who is quite frank and graphic about his sexual experiences with the yuan-ti half-breeds. Sherincal tells you all about her ancestry and her motives even though she's about to kill you. And there's even a priest of Bane who confesses to you that he has grown disillusioned with his faith, and he agrees to betray his superiors by helping you, an enemy spy. All you have to do is ask him a single vague question and he tells you everything.
If characters don't tell you about themselves, they have zero personality. In order for characters to show their personality, they need to be more open about themselves than people in real life.
Characters tell you intimate secrets. They tell you embarrassing secrets. They tell you incriminating secrets, stuff that could get them killed or worse. And the player never has to dig for that information.
Agree 100%. Felt that this post deserved more than a simple insightful.
(1) Dorn is a full party NPC. Is it fair to compare him to Winthrope?
Obviously not in his entirety, but I'm not suggesting that. I'm offering him as an example of how a minority identity can be introduced in a reasonably natural way.
Yes, in Dorn's case it takes a fair amount of time before his predilection becomes clear ... but that's rather the point. Either give a character the length of engagement with the protagonist that we might find out personal information about them in a fairly natural way, or don't tell us at all. After all, it might be the case that sundry other characters in the game are transgender, or are members of some other non-visible minority, but we never know that because in a brief interaction of strangers they have no reason to mention it. People don't normally blurt about their sexual identity to complete strangers.
So indeed this could be interpreted as an argument for a much lengthier treatment of Mizhena. Either do it properly, which takes more substantial interaction ... or don't do it at all. I don't believe there's any way to do it realistically in a one-line interaction.
Since Beamdog chose not to give extended space to transgender inclusion, the purpose of my suggestion (of a retrospective revelation about Winthrop) is that people who already know one another well (such as Imoen and our protagonist) often do communicate intimate information (including intimacies about third parties) in fairly casual chatter. Thus it's a scenario in which the subject could realistically be mentioned in a brief interaction, unlike the Mizhena conversation.
(2) Your approach does the following: (2a) It calls the information into question. Is Imoen joking? Is the info real? Who knows!
Yes, I hesitated about the protagonist suggesting that Imoen might be joking. Maybe it'd be better if the protagonist has a dialogue choice here, to express belief or disbelief.
However, the point of allowing the possiblity of disbelief is that it's realistic, since people often do refuse to believe surprising and/or intimate revelations about people whom they know, even when the information is true. I don't think it's essential to include a possibility of disbelief, but I do think it adds verisimilitude to the scene.
(2b) It makes Winthrope's transgenderism into something abnormal. It becomes a rumor.
Well, that depends what you mean by "abnormal".
I don't see how my suggestion would make Winthrop abnormal, except insofaras any minority behaviour could be defined as "abnormal" when there's a large majority who share some other preference ... but under that definition, of course transgenderism (or any other minority tendency) would automatically be "abnormal" regardless of how it was presented. I don't think that'd be a helpful definition and I don't advocate it, but I'm not sure what you mean.
(2c) It takes away the confidence of Winthrope. Instead of stating matter of factly, Winthrope now keeps it a secret that is discovered. That makes a very different characterization.
Well, no, not necessarily. I carefully avoided suggesting that Winthrop "keeps it a secret".
Maybe he just never mentioned it because he had no reason to do so. Or maybe he simply regards it as his own business and no-one else's. Or maybe nowadays he's so well-settled in his male identity that he rarely even thinks about having some other identity long ago. Or whatever. I consciously thought it better to leave it to the player's imagination to interpret why the protagonist didn't know all along that Winthrop was transgender, rather than trying to dictate a particular explanation.
In the screenshot I provided Charname asked a question and she answered. How is that shoving anything?
Because people don't generally blurt such highly personal details to a stranger, unless they're deliberately making a point by doing so.
A more normal response would have been something much simpler, such as "I didn't like my original name, so I changed it". The details of upbringing and transgender identity explain why Mizhena thought this necessary, but that's much more information than needed to answer some random stranger's question. The fuller explanation is an intimacy for sharing with a friend, not on first meeting a stranger, so blurting it out regardless is shoving it in the stranger's face.
And what did she do that makes her a weirdo on a street corner?
That was analogy - note that I said "like", not "is". As to what I meant people to draw from this analogy ... one RL example of people who blurt unwanted intimacies into the personal space of complete strangers are mentally-unstable unfortunates abandoned to the streets. I'm sure most of us have experienced this phenomenon from time to time, and I was pointing out that what Mizhena does is uncomfortably similar - people tend to shy away when unexpectedly faced with Too Much Information, just like they do from street-corner weirdoes.
I think here is the impasse. I see Mizhena acting like all other NPCs so I'm ok with her. You want her to not act like all other NPCs because her being a minority means that she has to be treated differently, or 'more realistically.'
I don't think that I'll be able to convince you on my viewpoint that being transgender doesn't necessitate being either a main character (like Dorn), treated differently, or with great care. I doubt you'll ever say "many other vanilla characters blurt out highly personal information, she is no different)
And I don't think that you'll be able to convince me that Mizhena as presented was insulting to transgender people, or that having an NPC freely giving personal information is problematic.
However, I do think that you would have a much stronger point if Mizhena was a main character, or if she acted differently than all other NPCs like her
As people have pointed out before, it's very common--indeed, quite standard--for RPC characters to give personal details and even secrets to the player with little or no prompting. The Infinity Engine games are no exception.
When there's a plot reason for the information, yes, and we accept it as a "literary convention" for the advancement of the story (because otherwise we'd have to build personal relationships with hundreds of characters over many thousands of hours of playing time, which would be more like real life but unplayably boring for a game).
Of course there are also some occasions, although few, when it's not part of story-advancement, but merely for "local colour". And those don't usually involve anything so personal as Mizhena's blurt.
In BG1, there's a guy who talks about his marital and sexual problems without any prompting whatsoever.
True, and that guy in the mine is probably the closest pre-existing example to anything like what Mizhena does.
That BG1 case also struck me as pretty jarring and bizarre behaviour ... but somewhat redeemed by the fact that guy realises that his behaviour is inappropriate and stops himself, rhetorically (and quite rightly!) asking "Why am I telling you this?"
In BG2, Solaufein tells you all about his relationship with Phaere, and you don't even need to ask him. All you have to do is not announce that you're going to kill him.
Solaufein's prior relationship with Phaere has already been well-flagged in conversations before that point, it's after you've got to know the guy a little, it's part of the explanation for Phaere's motives, and it's therefore part of the story ... so no, this isn't similar.
In IWD, Belhifet tells you all about his secret plans for no reason.
That's just archetypal "villain's exposition". Letting the player understand what the villain is trying to do is part of the story advancement, although I agree that they used a pretty cheap literary device to do so.
In IWD2, there's a prisoner who is quite frank and graphic about his sexual experiences with the yuan-ti half-breeds.
True. However, it's clearly the intention of the writers in that case that the player's reaction is one of disgust and revulsion ... and the fact that he shoves the information at us is part of how they deliberately ensure that reaction.
It's probably not the intention of the writers that we should react to Mizhena with disgust and revulsion, so that'd be a good reason to have Mizhena approach her revelation in different way from the guy in IWD2. (Or if space is limited, then just keep her private affairs to herself, not telling us at all).
And there's even a priest of Bane who confesses to you that he has grown disillusioned with his faith, and he agrees to betray his superiors by helping you, an enemy spy. All you have to do is ask him a single vague question and he tells you everything.
But yet again, this is very much part of story advancement. The priest is seeking an ally, not randomly blurting for no reason.
Thus, apart from the first one, I reckon these are all pretty irrelevant examples, not comparable to the scenario with Mizhena. The first one is indeed somewhat comparable, and it is jarring, but it's easier to believe that the writers were playing it for laughs by spoofing the declamatory style ... whereas Mizhena seems to be intended more seriously.
So perhaps she is more like the commoners in the Friendly Arm Inn. You click on them and some tell you that they used to be bandits, but were driven out by the new nastier bandits. Highly personal information that wouldn't be given out to a stranger, but which adds flavor.
Though even that isn't the same. Those commoners just blurt it out. They shove it down your throat. Mizhena calmly answers a question asked by the player. So it isn't shoving it down our throats in the way that we get with the former bandits.
Or is it like the ex-merchant in Baldurs Gate near the temple of Lady Luck? He approaches you and forces his life story on you. Shoves it down your throat whether you like it or not. Then again...that isn't the same. He forces the conversation and tells you his personal details without your consent. Mizhena doesn't approach you, and if you don't ask her she will never tell you...
---
If any change is "needed", how about just explaining the elements of her name? That way the player knows the in-world reason on why her name would sound odd. Would that be a good fix?
But yet again, this is very much part of story advancement.
That's actually my point. NPCs reveal stuff for the purposes of story advancement and character development--even if it's personal, even if it's not realistic, and even if it's not actually necessary. That cleric's seemingly-important confession is NOT needed for the plot to progress. You could easily cut it out, and the game would work just fine.
I think here is the impasse. I see Mizhena acting like all other NPCs so I'm ok with her. You want her to not act like all other NPCs because her being a minority means that she has to be treated differently, or 'more realistically.'
WTF? You are combining the opposite of the truth with an offensive mis-representation of my clearly-explained opinion. This comes across as grand-standing provocation, and I'm mystified about why you're distorting the debate so much. Anyone who has had the patience to read my posts can see that this is nothing like what I've said.
Mizhena acts uniquely (with the partial exception of a slightly similar incident in BG1, mentioned by @semiticgod), NOT like any other NPC. No-one else blurts unnecessary personal intimacies on first meeting, which is weird behaviour both in RL and in-game. This sticks out a mile, and I can't believe you haven't noticed it.
Perhaps some other NPCs are transgender too - quite possible, since there are lots of minor NPCs. Presumably some proportion of them belong to various sexual (or other) minorities. If it matters to anyone, then players can make whatever role-playing assumptions they may wish about every other minor NPC's sexual identity and orientation ... but we don't know and we don't need to know, and there's no realistic reason why any of those minor NPCs should tell us, because these are minor interactions with characters whom we never get to know well - and that specifically includes Mizhena. (In my country, we even have a popular saying, "keep yourself to yourself", which means "do not force your personal issues on those who have no need to know", and it is widely regarded as rude to break that rule - and I'm pretty sure that's true in many other places too.) As already pointed out, it makes sense to become aware of more personal details for characters whom we get to know, or who have some reason for telling us something, but not casual strangers. Other NPCs follow this rule of credible character-writing ... but Mizhena doesn't.
What would be most realistic for Mizhena (and thereby the most immersive and plausible writing) is exactly what is already realistically done for most other minor NPCs, which is that they tell us nothing about their private lives - just like casual strangers in RL. (If I go into some random shop, then the shopkeeper discusses what I want to buy - but she certainly doesn't talk about her sexual history, and I wouldn't want to know about her sexual history - and I'd wonder about her mental health if she insisted on blurting it out regardless.)
So long as Mizhena remains a minor NPC (which I assume is permanent, barring mods), then it'd have been better to behave like other minor NPCs. However, since the writers wanted to wave a placard about transgender inclusion and chose Mizhena as their vehicle, Mizhena therefore couldn't be allowed to behave like other minor NPCs, because the writers wanted someone who would speak up about their sexual identity instead of keeping private matters private like other minor NPCs, and they (apparently) weren't given room to develop a larger character who could bring up the issue in a credible way, so we ended up where we are.
So do I "want her to not act like all other NPCs"? No, the opposite. If Mizhena acted like other NPCs, then she'd behave normally and there'd be no cause for comment.
So do I think "her being a minority means that she has to be treated differently"? No, the opposite. It'd be better if the writers had at least treated Mizhena like other minorities in the game, instead of being singled out for unique treatment.
So do I think "her being a minority means that she has to be treated ... 'more realistically.'" Not more realistically than other characters - being equally realistic would fit fine, if only they had done that.
I don't think that I'll be able to convince you on my viewpoint that being transgender doesn't necessitate being either a main character (like Dorn), treated differently, or with great care.
I need no convincing of that. It's the way in which Mizhena is already treated so differently from other characters that draws so much attention to this badly-written placard-waving tokenism ... but the different treatment was necessary in order to make the placard visible, and it's very difficult to imagine any other reason why the writers did it this way.
And I don't think that you'll be able to convince me that Mizhena as presented was insulting to transgender people, or that having an NPC freely giving personal information is problematic.
Fair enough. I've explained my position at length, and if you're not convinced, then so be it.
However, I do think that you would have a much stronger point if Mizhena was a main character, or if she acted differently than all other NPCs like her
On the contrary, if Mizhena were a main character then the writers could (I hope) have developed the communication of personal information in a more credible and appropriate manner, and most of my objections wouldn't apply.
I'm not sure what you mean by "other NPCs like" Mizhena, since I can't see any such. But in the sense of other NPCs whom Mizhena should have been like, i.e. ordinary merchants/priests/whatever with whom we have a business-like interaction and move on, then she already acts very differently (as I've explained at length) and that's why I do think I have a strong point.
I think here is the impasse. I see Mizhena acting like all other NPCs so I'm ok with her. You want her to not act like all other NPCs because her being a minority means that she has to be treated differently, or 'more realistically.'
WTF? You are combining the opposite of the truth with an offensive mis-representation of my clearly-explained opinion. This comes across as grand-standing provocation, and I'm mystified about why you're distorting the debate so much. Anyone who has had the patience to read my posts can see that this is nothing like what I've said.
Mizhena acts uniquely (with the partial exception of a slightly similar incident in BG1, mentioned by @semiticgod), NOT like any other NPC. No-one else blurts unnecessary personal intimacies on first meeting, which is weird behaviour both in RL and in-game. This sticks out a mile, and I can't believe you haven't noticed it.
The merchant in NW Baldurs Gate. He walks up to you and forces a dialogue where he spills his life story. That is shoving intimidate, personal details down your throat. Also the commoners in The Friendly Arm tell you that they were once bandits. An offense punishable by death and they tell a stranger with no prodding. Eldoth sees random strangers and admits immediately to trying to ransom a Duke's daughter. In Nashkel if you break into a house, a woman immediately tells you her husband is missing. In Beregost if you break into no less than 2 houses, you are told that relatives are missing. Break into a house in Bakdurs Gate and a dwarf tells you a sob story that leads to a quest to get Ankheg shells. A little girl in Baldurs Gate upon clicking on her tells you her life story and asks you to get her cat.
How much longer do you want me to go on with minor NPCs shoving personal details down your throat? At least Mizhena only tells you when you ask.
So yes, she acts with more decorum and less shoving than most other minor NPCs. I'm sorry you don't see that.
Perhaps some other NPCs are transgender too - quite possible, since there are lots of minor NPCs. Presumably some proportion of them belong to various sexual (or other) minorities. If it matters to anyone, then players can make whatever role-playing assumptions they may wish about every other minor NPC's sexual identity and orientation ... but we don't know and we don't need to know, and there's no realistic reason why any of those minor NPCs should tell us, because these are minor interactions with characters whom we never get to know well - and that specifically includes Mizhena. (In my country, we even have a popular saying, "keep yourself to yourself", which means "do not force your personal issues on those who have no need to know", and it is widely regarded as rude to break that rule - and I'm pretty sure that's true in many other places too.) As already pointed out, it makes sense to become aware of more personal details for characters whom we get to know, or who have some reason for telling us something, but not casual strangers. Other NPCs follow this rule of credible character-writing ... but Mizhena doesn't.
What would be most realistic for Mizhena (and thereby the most immersive and plausible writing) is exactly what is already realistically done for most other minor NPCs, which is that they tell us nothing about their private lives - just like casual strangers in RL. (If I go into some random shop, then the shopkeeper discusses what I want to buy - but she certainly doesn't talk about her sexual history, and I wouldn't want to know about her sexual history - and I'd wonder about her mental health if she insisted on blurting it out regardless.)
What are you arguing here? In RL random kids don't tell me that their parents are dead, that they ran away and want me to break into their home to get their cat. In RL if I break into a person's house (as in picking the lock or kicking the door in) people don't blurt out that their husbands are missing. By your logic shouldn't you be protesting them as well?
Why are you holding Mizhena to this standard and not the other NPCs?
So long as Mizhena remains a minor NPC (which I assume is permanent, barring mods), then it'd have been better to behave like other minor NPCs. However, since the writers wanted to wave a placard about transgender inclusion and chose Mizhena as their vehicle, Mizhena therefore couldn't be allowed to behave like other minor NPCs, because the writers wanted someone who would speak up about their sexual identity instead of keeping private matters private like other minor NPCs, and they (apparently) weren't given room to develop a larger character who could bring up the issue in a credible way, so we ended up where we are.
So do I "want her to not act like all other NPCs"? No, the opposite. If Mizhena acted like other NPCs, then she'd behave normally and there'd be no cause for comment.
See my examples above. She does act like other NPCs. Actually, unlike other NPCs she doesn't spill everything on one click. You need to ask her.
So do I think "her being a minority means that she has to be treated differently"? No, the opposite. It'd be better if the writers had at least treated Mizhena like other minorities in the game, instead of being singled out for unique treatment.
By your own words other minorities say nothing and their minority status is up to player imagination. Or is that not what you meant? Because from where I stand you seem to be ok with failed merchants forcing you to hear their life story and ex bandits telling you (a stranger) information that can get them executed, but you take offense when a minority character answers a question matter of factly and you find the information too personal.
So do I think "her being a minority means that she has to be treated ... 'more realistically.'" Not more realistically than other characters - being equally realistic would fit fine, if only they had done that.
"What would be most realistic for Mizhena (and thereby the most immersive and plausible writing) is exactly what is already realistically done for most other minor NPCs, which is that they tell us nothing about their private lives - just like casual strangers in RL."
Your words. You are asking for her to be "realistic" but aren't asking that of any other NPC. Why?
I don't think that I'll be able to convince you on my viewpoint that being transgender doesn't necessitate being either a main character (like Dorn), treated differently, or with great care.
I need no convincing of that. It's the way in which Mizhena is already treated so differently from other characters that draws so much attention to this badly-written placard-waving tokenism ... but the different treatment was necessary in order to make the placard visible, and it's very difficult to imagine any other reason why the writers did it this way.
And I don't think that you'll be able to convince me that Mizhena as presented was insulting to transgender people, or that having an NPC freely giving personal information is problematic.
Fair enough. I've explained my position at length, and if you're not convinced, then so be it.
However, I do think that you would have a much stronger point if Mizhena was a main character, or if she acted differently than all other NPCs like her
On the contrary, if Mizhena were a main character then the writers could (I hope) have developed the communication of personal information in a more credible and appropriate manner, and most of my objections wouldn't apply.
I'm not sure what you mean by "other NPCs like" Mizhena, since I can't see any such. But in the sense of other NPCs whom Mizhena should have been like, i.e. ordinary merchants/priests/whatever with whom we have a business-like interaction and move on, then she already acts very differently (as I've explained at length) and that's why I do think I have a strong point.
So now that I've given you examples would you like to revisit your points?
If any change is "needed", how about just explaining the elements of her name? That way the player knows the in-world reason on why her name would sound odd. Would that be a good fix?
Okay, I'd go along with that.
However, I'm not actually arguing that any change is truly "needed" apart from some bug-fixing, even though I'm critical of some details and would like to see a few improvements. I actually like SoD, and I reckon Beamdog did a decent job overall, in spite of various minor flaws.
If it were me, I'd just break up her line into two parts, with an (optional) question from the player in the middle. i.e.--
Mizhena- "When I was born, my parents thought me a boy and treated me as such. In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman. The name I had been given no longer seemed appropriate." [that last sentence is new]
Player- 1. Fascinating. I have some other questions. 2. Where did your new name come from? 3. I have to be going now.
Mizhena- (after 2 above) "I created my new name from syllables from other languages. All have special meaning to me; it is the truest reflection of who I am."
Player- 1. Thank you for sharing your story with me. I have another question for you. 2. An interesting past. Now I must ask you something else. 3. I have to be going now.
That's literally all I would change. Splitting the paragraph into two lines instead of one would make it sound less like it was written to fit a template (which it was) and more like a conversation with a character.
You'd still have people who liked or didn't like Mizhena or that conversation, for various reasons, but at that point those criticisms would be personal taste with regard to the character as a person--not as a piece of writing.
So now that I've given you examples would you like to revisit your points?
Not really, no, I've already explained at great length and it's getting tedious to be continually asked to repeat and expand the same points. But okay, you asked, so I'll give some response.
Dun the Ex-merchant is telling you about his business, not his private life, and (IIRC) only adds anything particularly personal (his gambling habit) when you question him (not spilling it on approach). The ex-bandits in the FAI are safely on neutral territory where they won't be arrested, although I agree they're incautious - probably been drinking. Eldoth is giving you a quest, not random personal information, so that's covered by the exemption for story advancement (see response to @semiticgod above). Distraught spouses (Joseph's wife in Nashkel) do sometimes blurt pleas for help out of desperation, and anyway that's also a quest rather than random personal information. Both of the people in Beregost talking about missing relatives are giving quests, and both have a build-up rather than being blurted on entry - Mr. Colquetle is introduced by his butler with some explanation, and you're directed to go see Mirianne by Roleo Windspear in the Red Sheaf. Fenten in BG City is again giving you a quest, and I don't recall him saying anything very personal. Petrine is giving you a quest, and she does get slightly more personal than necessary, but that's quite realistic for little kids, so it feels right.
Most of these people have much more reason to tell you what they tell you than Mizhena, and none of them tell you anything as intimately personal.
So yes, she acts with more decorum and less shoving than most other minor NPCs. I'm sorry you don't see that.
Mizhena first gratuitously blurts something very personal which she had no need to explain, and then afterwards answers your question - I've already commented on this exact point somewhere in the walls of text above.
Compared to the examples you listed, I reckon she acts with less decorum (because talking about her sexual identity is more intimately personal than the stuff the others are telling you) and more shoving (because it's unnecessary for your question and also unnecessary for any quest).
What are you arguing here? In RL random kids don't tell me that their parents are dead, that they ran away and want me to break into their home to get their cat.
Actually they might, if you were a fireman, and if you were back in the days when kids were allowed to just run away from abusive carers! Seriously, however, Petrine tells you this because she's giving you a quest, so she has a reason for explaining.
In RL if I break into a person's house (as in picking the lock or kicking the door in) people don't blurt out that their husbands are missing. By your logic shouldn't you be protesting them as well?
You mean Joseph's wife? As already pointed out, she's giving you a quest, so she explains it.
Why are you holding Mizhena to this standard and not the other NPCs?
As I see it, it's the same standard set by the other NPCs, but Mizhena isn't meeting it.
Here's a different way of looking at it, not yet discussed: if Mizhena were actually giving us a quest for which the disclosure of transgender identity was somehow relevant, then there'd be a credible reason for us to be told and I'd be much more comfortable about it.
See my examples above. She does act like other NPCs.
See my rebuttals of your examples above. Mizhena doesn't act like other NPCs. (But hey, we're both getting close to "Yah boo sucks!" here, which is usually pointless.)
By your own words other minorities say nothing and their minority status is up to player imagination. Or is that not what you meant?
When it's just a minor character with whom we have no continuing engagement, yes, that's what I mean - they've no reason to tell us and we've no reason to know, so imagine whatever you will. (But of course it's different for a major character where we actually get to know the person.)
Because from where I stand you seem to be ok with failed merchants forcing you to hear their life story and ex bandits telling you (a stranger) information that can get them executed, but you take offense when a minority character answers a question matter of factly and you find the information too personal.
"Too personal" does have something to do with it, yes, and especially when the information is gratuitous rather than relevant. Issues like gender identity and sexual orientation are about who you really are, very deeply personal. What you used to do for a living (whether businessman or bandit) is ... well, yes, somewhat personal ... but generally not really intimate information.
"What would be most realistic for Mizhena (and thereby the most immersive and plausible writing) is exactly what is already realistically done for most other minor NPCs, which is that they tell us nothing about their private lives - just like casual strangers in RL."
Your words. You are asking for her to be "realistic" but aren't asking that of any other NPC. Why?
Could you have mis-read what you quoted from me, perhaps? In those very words, I explicitly set the same standard for both Mizhena and other minor NPCs, but you seem to be accusing me of not doing so.
If it were me, I'd just break up her line into two parts, with an (optional) question from the player in the middle. i.e.--
Mizhena- "When I was born, my parents thought me a boy and treated me as such. In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman. The name I had been given no longer seemed appropriate." [that last sentence is new]
Player- 1. Fascinating. I have some other questions. 2. Where did your new name come from? 3. I have to be going now.
That still leaves us with an intimately personal blurt ("Whoa! Too much information! Why are you telling us this, stranger?" Your party takes a step back ...) coming out of nowhere, from a stranger whom you first met one sentence earlier.
If the writers really want to get this disclosure into the first meeting, then I reckon it'd feel more natural if it were behind an extra level of dialogue, so that Mizhena only makes such a disclosure to a stranger when badgered about it:-
Mizhena- "I wanted a new name, so I made one for myself."
Player- 1. (As above) 2. But why? What was wrong with your old name? 3. (As above)
(After 2 above) M'Khiin (interjecting if present)- "Probably a bandit. Watch what you say."
Mizhena- "When I was born ..." (etc., continuing as before to the explanation of the syllables).
Alternatively, however, I prefer the idea that Mizhena might make such a disclosure later in the game, not at your first meeting. You have further (and different) contact with Mizhena at the Coalition Camp, while solving the Traitor quest, and by then you've seen a little more of one another and so might more credibly be imagined to be no longer complete strangers. So perhaps add a dialogue option when questioning Mizhena about the stolen candle - "By the way, Mizhena ... that's an unusual name, I've never heard it before. Where is it from?", and so on into the explanation (not now with the extra level because you're not such strangers).
Best of all, I like the idea which came out elsewhere in this thread just now, that Mizhena should mention her transgender identity because it's relevant to a new quest which she's giving you (but obviously that'd be a lot more work, so I realise that it's highly unlikely! )
@semiticgod I agree since you have to poke Mizhena for quite a lot for her to come out the closet anyway. Her "weirdness" is the least of her problems imo.
You'd still have people who liked or didn't like Mizhena or that conversation, for various reasons, but at that point those criticisms would be personal taste with regard to the character as a person--not as a piece of writing.
Strongly disagree...
I mean you didn't even bother adding a rude option, a romantic option, a "don't care" option etc. All you have done is give a lazy solution to lazy writing? Might as well just leave her unchanged... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I must admit, ever since I read the "hints" given to us in other threads regarding the Mizhena update I am starting not to give a damn. It is obvious beamdog wants her to remain as nothing more than a tick in their progressive checklist boxes. If beamdog doesn't care, then why should we?
Funny how other companies have the ability to implement T characters people like while beamdog somehow fumbled miserably (heck capcom even created an entire cult following over one!!).
Actually I wonder why some people care about Mizhena so much. "Woah, real people don't talk like this" is common in RPGs, yet it becomes suddenly important when they make a character that make you feel "real trans don't talk like this."
@Teo_live You, uh, might want to give a better example than Poison.
- In Final Fight, she's a post-op M to F transsexual... but it's only mentioned in the Japanese instruction booklet. - In Final Fight Revenge, she's still MtF but Capcom USA didn't know that and tried to tease Poison/Cody. Cue shitstorm. - Then Japan localized Final Fight Revenge and retconned the whole thing to make Poison a simple gay crossdresser. - Finally Street Fighter IV came out and Poison was retconned again, this time to be a pre-op M to F transsexual.
It was a long journey full of confusion and people getting angry. Not exactly a shining example of "transgender character done right". Not to mention she's a transsexual, not a transgender (except when he's a crossdresser I suppose).
And then there's the whole other can of worms being how Poison is presented as a fetish object for male players...
Basically, it's almost as bad as an example as Naruto. In fact it might actually be worse.
Actually the USA canon is her being a post op, regardless in all 4 of your points she was some form of trans so she is always relevant? I don't see the problem here.
It was a long journey full of confusion and people getting angry.
Yes 1989 wasn't exactly a tolerant time for anyone queer. Even in such an intolerant time period she still had a minor fan base which has grown massively.
Not to mention she's a transsexual, not a transgender (except when he's a crossdresser I suppose).
Oh god, I feel like I am in a gender studies seminar... I really am not interested in the whole "she is actually XYZ not XYB" debate. All I will say is bioware pulled off the whole low tech/magic Xdresser thing quite well, if that's what you want.
And then there's the whole other can of worms being how Poison is presented as a fetish object for male players...
Damn this sounds like something Anita Sarkeesian would say (I must admit I *cringed* a little)... So now we can't even admire someone if they have sex appeal and a great body? I guess you be more happy if poison was "empowered" by wearing a tracksuit and gained 50 lbs of bodyfat?
I cringe when I hear her name. Not because of anything she said, but because of the death/rape threats made against her, the endless harassment, and efforts to curtail her free speech.
Also, I find that having a character who is dressed like a sex object is distasteful. I certainly find that it demeans and cheapens the character. I'd be happier with characters who dress 'realistically.'
Fighting games: Don't wear high heels to a street fight. Don't wear clothing that is literally falling off. Medieval Games: Don't wear armor that exposes skin/cleavage. If your armor has gaps that allow a sword to go through so males can see your skin, your armor is wrong. Shooter Games: Don't wear a tank top when all of the guys have body armor on. Also don't wear short shorts when the guys have long pants. There is a reason we don't wear shorts. Low crawling, or shooting while kneeling, in shorts would suck. You'd get all cut up. Thick material pants is essential.
For the above, I'd be much happier to see her designed to look like a female boxer. You know, someone who actually fights, wearing clothing that one would fight in.
You mean the threats that the police didn't take seriously that looked blatantly self-made? Even pretending the threats were real, welcome to the internet.
So I am guessing Poison's female fans who cosplay themselves as poison are just sex-objects too huh? Is this "How dare someone have a great body and show it off" type of attitude some type of new age progressive trend? Screw that lol (Also what about us males who hit the gym to gain assets to flaunt? So I guess we are all just a sex-objects too right?)
Finally you are asking for realism in games where you can [Haduken] fireball people from far...........
Back on topic though I will say it again. Even if you hate evil sexiness (lol!) and are forced in a ultra low-tech/magic world then just use bioware as an example instead of capcom. Both companies did better than beamdog so pick your poison *pun intended*
Comments
If only I knew how to mod argh, till then the best I can do is be happy to pay for a [Mizhena DLC].
Now, as to why the dialogue is problematic ... okay, I'll have a go at explaining. Mizhena's one controversial dialogue is so minor in the game that it seems scarcely worth the trouble of writing a wall of text (FFS, I can't understand why anyone cares about this so ruddy much that we have to keep on discussing it!) ... but the question was asked, and I can't answer properly without the wall of text. I'll break it into three sections to make it easier.
Then at the end (if anyone is still reading by then
1. Too Much Information
I'm sure someone must have pointed out before what's actually so jarringly out-of-place about Mizhena's declaration of sexual identity, but (surprisingly) I can't recall seeing it, so maybe it still needs saying that it's the in-your-face indiscretion of Too Much Information.
For comparison, consider our first meeting with Dorn, who is also a member of a sexual minority group. Does he announce "My name is Dorn Il-Khan. I'm bisexual!"? No, he doesn't do that. We meet, we find out various things about him, we get to know him somewhat, and then we may (or indeed may not) eventually also happen to find out about his sexual orientation ... and if we're playing through the full series, then his orientation isn't very obvious in BG1ee, so we've probably known him for quite a while before it becomes clear. That's fine, it seems a reasonably natural sequence of events, it feels sufficiently similar to the RL social interaction of getting to know someone that it doesn't seem ridiculously forced, it's just one datum among many things we find out in the course of getting to know him ... and at the time we find out, it's actually relevant information for us to know, because he's then an in-game romance option.
Mizhena, though, is different. In our very first meeting, if we enquire about her (allegedly) unusual name, then she immediately announces her transgender identity, as if she's just bursting to tell everyone about it right away, as if it's something which we ought to be desperately anxious to know about ... rather than an intimate personal matter which most of us would regard as none of our business, unless and until we have some sort of established friendship, or some other actual reason for the information to be relevant and appropriate.
So that's why it's jarringly out-of-place. Of course I realise that, to some people, sudden intimate revelations to strangers might not seem to be the behaviour of a screwball weirdo, but I do wish more of those people (who don't personally find it very odd) could nevertheless come to understand that there are clearly many other people to whom such behaviour is shockingly weird.
2. Placard Waving
Of course, there's one RL situation in which (in some but not all cultures) we're accustomed to random strangers bursting to tell everyone about their sexual identity or orientation (or indeed some other matter which would ordinarily be no-one else's business). That's when there's some sort of public protest or demonstration, in which those involved are waving placards identifying themselves with the issue. Such demonstrations are the only obvious context in which Mizhena's in-your-face behaviour relates to ordinary RL experience. (Well, some people's RL experience may differ, but average Jo(e)-in-the-Western-street isn't likely to see such proclamations of intimate details except when protestors march past ... and in some cultures, such behaviour is unlikely ever to be seen at all.)
This is why the way Mizhena was written looks very like a blatant placard-waving exercise, and it's nigh impossible to believe that the writers didn't know and intend that it would be seen as such.
3. Denigrating Transgender Persons
Making the only overtly transgender character one who shoves unnecessary intimate revelations in the faces of random strangers, like some crazy weirdo on a street corner, is imposing a pretty nasty stereotype on transgender people. Luckily it's only a tiny incident in a large game, but it's still gratuitously offensive.
This is not actually how RL transgender people generally behave in my experience. On the contrary, transgender people whom I've met (and whom I've known to be transgender) mostly want to be ordinary folks, not standing out from the crowd with a target on their backs, and not discussing their transgender identity without a reason. I've certainly met more transgender people who would rather be invisible than wave a placard. (And of course, there may also be numerous other transgender people whom I've met in passing, who blended in so well that I never knew they were transgender ... which is probably exactly how they wanted it to be.)
Stereotyping transgender people as weirdoes is probably not what the writers intended, but counter-productive consequences are a frequent result of ham-fisted tokenism. I expect that numerous RL transgender people are furious at the portrayal of Mizhena, and mortified at the wide attention it has received ... but none of my own RL transgender acquaintances (SFAIK) are gamers, so they haven't seen any of this controversy. (Lucky them!)
How A Transgender Character Might Have Been Handled Better
Mizhena simply as a travelling priest/quest-interviewee with no transgender dialogue.
Instead, in Korlasz's Tomb, Imoen talks to our protagonist:-
Imoen: "By the way, Charname, did you ever realise that Puffguts used to be a woman?"
Charname: "Eh? Puffguts? Oh, yes, I remember, that's what you used to call old Winthrop at the Candlekeep Inn. A woman, really? No, I don't believe it!"
Imoen: "It's true, though. I accidentally saw some old paperwork when I was busy making his hotel as clean as an elven arse ... and, well, there it was: he grew up as a girl!"
Charname: "Oh! Well, you're full of surprises, I'd never have guessed that. Are you sure you're not just teasing me again? But come on, we've got to get on with our job here. Onward!"
And that's it. You're told that a well-known character was transgender all along, but with no inappropriate blurting of intimate details, a smaller placard, no nasty stereotyping, and Winthrop left to live as he wishes. And probably much less controversy to damage Beamdog's business.
(But that's not what they did, and this isn't how they'll change it in the patch.)
(1) Dorn is a full party NPC. Is it fair to compare him to Winthrope?
(2) Your approach does the following:
(2a) It calls the information into question. Is Imoen joking? Is the info real? Who knows!
(2b) It makes Winthrope's transgenderism into something abnormal. It becomes a rumor.
(2c) It takes away the confidence of Winthrope. Instead of stating matter of factly, Winthrope now keeps it a secret that is discovered. That makes a very different characterization.
That's my take at least. If the above is wrong, I'd be happy to discuss.
Also you say that:
"Making the only overtly transgender character one who shoves unnecessary intimate revelations in the faces of random strangers, like some crazy weirdo on a street corner, is imposing a pretty nasty stereotype on transgender people. Luckily it's only a tiny incident in a large game, but it's still gratuitously offensive."
How is this the case? In the screenshot I provided Charname asked a question and she answered. How is that shoving anything? And what did she do that makes her a weirdo on a street corner? If being transgender isn't something to be ashamed about, then what exactly did she do wrong?
Not that I think Mizhena a weirdo though.
Change the name "Mizhena" for something that would prompt charname to ask about it.
That's all.
Though it would be better if in future encounters, having had the conversation about the name, the dialog changed rather than being repeated. But I understand that might have something to do with constraints to coding ect. (stuff I really am clueless about).
At the moment it's a bit like the Thalantyr convo, every bloody time you have to endure the intro.
"
If only I knew how to mod argh, till then the best I can do is be happy to pay for a [Mizhena DLC]."
i'll supply the code. someone else supply the writing
I don't care if she is a "weirdo" or not. However If beamdog wants to force LGBT tokens into games to show off how "progressive" they are... they should at least try to put some effort into it.
As for this new patch that will supposedly "update" Mizhena, from what I have read it doesn't sound like it will do much. I wager they will just stop the reloop and shove in a extra line or two of dialogue, while patting themselves on the back for the half-assed effort... I hope I am proven wrong here
At the moment it's a bit like the Thalantyr convo, every bloody time you have to endure the intro. "
i've worked with the IE engine code quite a bit and there is certainly no such restriction. The engine is pretty flexible with what it allows you to do, actually.
In BG1, there's a guy who talks about his marital and sexual problems without any prompting whatsoever.
In BG2, Solaufein tells you all about his relationship with Phaere, and you don't even need to ask him. All you have to do is not announce that you're going to kill him.
In IWD, Belhifet tells you all about his secret plans for no reason.
In IWD2, there's a prisoner who is quite frank and graphic about his sexual experiences with the yuan-ti half-breeds. Sherincal tells you all about her ancestry and her motives even though she's about to kill you. And there's even a priest of Bane who confesses to you that he has grown disillusioned with his faith, and he agrees to betray his superiors by helping you, an enemy spy. All you have to do is ask him a single vague question and he tells you everything.
If characters don't tell you about themselves, they have zero personality. In order for characters to show their personality, they need to be more open about themselves than people in real life.
Characters tell you intimate secrets. They tell you embarrassing secrets. They tell you incriminating secrets, stuff that could get them killed or worse. And the player never has to dig for that information.
Yes, in Dorn's case it takes a fair amount of time before his predilection becomes clear ... but that's rather the point. Either give a character the length of engagement with the protagonist that we might find out personal information about them in a fairly natural way, or don't tell us at all. After all, it might be the case that sundry other characters in the game are transgender, or are members of some other non-visible minority, but we never know that because in a brief interaction of strangers they have no reason to mention it. People don't normally blurt about their sexual identity to complete strangers.
So indeed this could be interpreted as an argument for a much lengthier treatment of Mizhena. Either do it properly, which takes more substantial interaction ... or don't do it at all. I don't believe there's any way to do it realistically in a one-line interaction.
Since Beamdog chose not to give extended space to transgender inclusion, the purpose of my suggestion (of a retrospective revelation about Winthrop) is that people who already know one another well (such as Imoen and our protagonist) often do communicate intimate information (including intimacies about third parties) in fairly casual chatter. Thus it's a scenario in which the subject could realistically be mentioned in a brief interaction, unlike the Mizhena conversation. Yes, I hesitated about the protagonist suggesting that Imoen might be joking. Maybe it'd be better if the protagonist has a dialogue choice here, to express belief or disbelief.
However, the point of allowing the possiblity of disbelief is that it's realistic, since people often do refuse to believe surprising and/or intimate revelations about people whom they know, even when the information is true. I don't think it's essential to include a possibility of disbelief, but I do think it adds verisimilitude to the scene. Well, that depends what you mean by "abnormal".
I don't see how my suggestion would make Winthrop abnormal, except insofaras any minority behaviour could be defined as "abnormal" when there's a large majority who share some other preference ... but under that definition, of course transgenderism (or any other minority tendency) would automatically be "abnormal" regardless of how it was presented. I don't think that'd be a helpful definition and I don't advocate it, but I'm not sure what you mean. Well, no, not necessarily. I carefully avoided suggesting that Winthrop "keeps it a secret".
Maybe he just never mentioned it because he had no reason to do so. Or maybe he simply regards it as his own business and no-one else's. Or maybe nowadays he's so well-settled in his male identity that he rarely even thinks about having some other identity long ago. Or whatever. I consciously thought it better to leave it to the player's imagination to interpret why the protagonist didn't know all along that Winthrop was transgender, rather than trying to dictate a particular explanation. Because people don't generally blurt such highly personal details to a stranger, unless they're deliberately making a point by doing so.
A more normal response would have been something much simpler, such as "I didn't like my original name, so I changed it". The details of upbringing and transgender identity explain why Mizhena thought this necessary, but that's much more information than needed to answer some random stranger's question. The fuller explanation is an intimacy for sharing with a friend, not on first meeting a stranger, so blurting it out regardless is shoving it in the stranger's face. That was analogy - note that I said "like", not "is". As to what I meant people to draw from this analogy ... one RL example of people who blurt unwanted intimacies into the personal space of complete strangers are mentally-unstable unfortunates abandoned to the streets. I'm sure most of us have experienced this phenomenon from time to time, and I was pointing out that what Mizhena does is uncomfortably similar - people tend to shy away when unexpectedly faced with Too Much Information, just like they do from street-corner weirdoes. I think I've already explained exactly this at interminable length, so I won't bore everyone with repetition.
I don't think that I'll be able to convince you on my viewpoint that being transgender doesn't necessitate being either a main character (like Dorn), treated differently, or with great care. I doubt you'll ever say "many other vanilla characters blurt out highly personal information, she is no different)
And I don't think that you'll be able to convince me that Mizhena as presented was insulting to transgender people, or that having an NPC freely giving personal information is problematic.
However, I do think that you would have a much stronger point if Mizhena was a main character, or if she acted differently than all other NPCs like her
Of course there are also some occasions, although few, when it's not part of story-advancement, but merely for "local colour". And those don't usually involve anything so personal as Mizhena's blurt. True, and that guy in the mine is probably the closest pre-existing example to anything like what Mizhena does.
That BG1 case also struck me as pretty jarring and bizarre behaviour ... but somewhat redeemed by the fact that guy realises that his behaviour is inappropriate and stops himself, rhetorically (and quite rightly!) asking "Why am I telling you this?" Solaufein's prior relationship with Phaere has already been well-flagged in conversations before that point, it's after you've got to know the guy a little, it's part of the explanation for Phaere's motives, and it's therefore part of the story ... so no, this isn't similar. That's just archetypal "villain's exposition". Letting the player understand what the villain is trying to do is part of the story advancement, although I agree that they used a pretty cheap literary device to do so. True. However, it's clearly the intention of the writers in that case that the player's reaction is one of disgust and revulsion ... and the fact that he shoves the information at us is part of how they deliberately ensure that reaction.
It's probably not the intention of the writers that we should react to Mizhena with disgust and revulsion, so that'd be a good reason to have Mizhena approach her revelation in different way from the guy in IWD2. (Or if space is limited, then just keep her private affairs to herself, not telling us at all). Just another archetypal villain's exposition, and part of the story, so not comparable. But yet again, this is very much part of story advancement. The priest is seeking an ally, not randomly blurting for no reason.
Thus, apart from the first one, I reckon these are all pretty irrelevant examples, not comparable to the scenario with Mizhena. The first one is indeed somewhat comparable, and it is jarring, but it's easier to believe that the writers were playing it for laughs by spoofing the declamatory style ... whereas Mizhena seems to be intended more seriously.
Though even that isn't the same. Those commoners just blurt it out. They shove it down your throat. Mizhena calmly answers a question asked by the player. So it isn't shoving it down our throats in the way that we get with the former bandits.
Or is it like the ex-merchant in Baldurs Gate near the temple of Lady Luck? He approaches you and forces his life story on you. Shoves it down your throat whether you like it or not. Then again...that isn't the same. He forces the conversation and tells you his personal details without your consent. Mizhena doesn't approach you, and if you don't ask her she will never tell you...
---
If any change is "needed", how about just explaining the elements of her name? That way the player knows the in-world reason on why her name would sound odd. Would that be a good fix?
Mizhena acts uniquely (with the partial exception of a slightly similar incident in BG1, mentioned by @semiticgod), NOT like any other NPC. No-one else blurts unnecessary personal intimacies on first meeting, which is weird behaviour both in RL and in-game. This sticks out a mile, and I can't believe you haven't noticed it.
Perhaps some other NPCs are transgender too - quite possible, since there are lots of minor NPCs. Presumably some proportion of them belong to various sexual (or other) minorities. If it matters to anyone, then players can make whatever role-playing assumptions they may wish about every other minor NPC's sexual identity and orientation ... but we don't know and we don't need to know, and there's no realistic reason why any of those minor NPCs should tell us, because these are minor interactions with characters whom we never get to know well - and that specifically includes Mizhena. (In my country, we even have a popular saying, "keep yourself to yourself", which means "do not force your personal issues on those who have no need to know", and it is widely regarded as rude to break that rule - and I'm pretty sure that's true in many other places too.) As already pointed out, it makes sense to become aware of more personal details for characters whom we get to know, or who have some reason for telling us something, but not casual strangers. Other NPCs follow this rule of credible character-writing ... but Mizhena doesn't.
What would be most realistic for Mizhena (and thereby the most immersive and plausible writing) is exactly what is already realistically done for most other minor NPCs, which is that they tell us nothing about their private lives - just like casual strangers in RL. (If I go into some random shop, then the shopkeeper discusses what I want to buy - but she certainly doesn't talk about her sexual history, and I wouldn't want to know about her sexual history - and I'd wonder about her mental health if she insisted on blurting it out regardless.)
So long as Mizhena remains a minor NPC (which I assume is permanent, barring mods), then it'd have been better to behave like other minor NPCs. However, since the writers wanted to wave a placard about transgender inclusion and chose Mizhena as their vehicle, Mizhena therefore couldn't be allowed to behave like other minor NPCs, because the writers wanted someone who would speak up about their sexual identity instead of keeping private matters private like other minor NPCs, and they (apparently) weren't given room to develop a larger character who could bring up the issue in a credible way, so we ended up where we are.
So do I "want her to not act like all other NPCs"? No, the opposite. If Mizhena acted like other NPCs, then she'd behave normally and there'd be no cause for comment.
So do I think "her being a minority means that she has to be treated differently"? No, the opposite. It'd be better if the writers had at least treated Mizhena like other minorities in the game, instead of being singled out for unique treatment.
So do I think "her being a minority means that she has to be treated ... 'more realistically.'" Not more realistically than other characters - being equally realistic would fit fine, if only they had done that. I need no convincing of that. It's the way in which Mizhena is already treated so differently from other characters that draws so much attention to this badly-written placard-waving tokenism ... but the different treatment was necessary in order to make the placard visible, and it's very difficult to imagine any other reason why the writers did it this way. Indeed no. That'd be nonsense, so I wouldn't say it.
I'm not sure what you mean by "other NPCs like" Mizhena, since I can't see any such. But in the sense of other NPCs whom Mizhena should have been like, i.e. ordinary merchants/priests/whatever with whom we have a business-like interaction and move on, then she already acts very differently (as I've explained at length) and that's why I do think I have a strong point.
However, I'm not actually arguing that any change is truly "needed" apart from some bug-fixing, even though I'm critical of some details and would like to see a few improvements. I actually like SoD, and I reckon Beamdog did a decent job overall, in spite of various minor flaws.
You'd still have people who liked or didn't like Mizhena or that conversation, for various reasons, but at that point those criticisms would be personal taste with regard to the character as a person--not as a piece of writing.
Dun the Ex-merchant is telling you about his business, not his private life, and (IIRC) only adds anything particularly personal (his gambling habit) when you question him (not spilling it on approach). The ex-bandits in the FAI are safely on neutral territory where they won't be arrested, although I agree they're incautious - probably been drinking. Eldoth is giving you a quest, not random personal information, so that's covered by the exemption for story advancement (see response to @semiticgod above). Distraught spouses (Joseph's wife in Nashkel) do sometimes blurt pleas for help out of desperation, and anyway that's also a quest rather than random personal information. Both of the people in Beregost talking about missing relatives are giving quests, and both have a build-up rather than being blurted on entry - Mr. Colquetle is introduced by his butler with some explanation, and you're directed to go see Mirianne by Roleo Windspear in the Red Sheaf. Fenten in BG City is again giving you a quest, and I don't recall him saying anything very personal. Petrine is giving you a quest, and she does get slightly more personal than necessary, but that's quite realistic for little kids, so it feels right.
Most of these people have much more reason to tell you what they tell you than Mizhena, and none of them tell you anything as intimately personal. Since you're so kind as to ask, that's enough now, thank you.
Compared to the examples you listed, I reckon she acts with less decorum (because talking about her sexual identity is more intimately personal than the stuff the others are telling you) and more shoving (because it's unnecessary for your question and also unnecessary for any quest). Actually they might, if you were a fireman, and if you were back in the days when kids were allowed to just run away from abusive carers!
Here's a different way of looking at it, not yet discussed: if Mizhena were actually giving us a quest for which the disclosure of transgender identity was somehow relevant, then there'd be a credible reason for us to be told and I'd be much more comfortable about it. See my rebuttals of your examples above. Mizhena doesn't act like other NPCs. (But hey, we're both getting close to "Yah boo sucks!" here, which is usually pointless.) When it's just a minor character with whom we have no continuing engagement, yes, that's what I mean - they've no reason to tell us and we've no reason to know, so imagine whatever you will. (But of course it's different for a major character where we actually get to know the person.) "Too personal" does have something to do with it, yes, and especially when the information is gratuitous rather than relevant. Issues like gender identity and sexual orientation are about who you really are, very deeply personal. What you used to do for a living (whether businessman or bandit) is ... well, yes, somewhat personal ... but generally not really intimate information. Could you have mis-read what you quoted from me, perhaps? In those very words, I explicitly set the same standard for both Mizhena and other minor NPCs, but you seem to be accusing me of not doing so.
If the writers really want to get this disclosure into the first meeting, then I reckon it'd feel more natural if it were behind an extra level of dialogue, so that Mizhena only makes such a disclosure to a stranger when badgered about it:-
Mizhena-
"I wanted a new name, so I made one for myself."
Player-
1. (As above)
2. But why? What was wrong with your old name?
3. (As above)
(After 2 above)
M'Khiin (interjecting if present)-
"Probably a bandit. Watch what you say."
Mizhena-
"When I was born ..." (etc., continuing as before to the explanation of the syllables).
Alternatively, however, I prefer the idea that Mizhena might make such a disclosure later in the game, not at your first meeting. You have further (and different) contact with Mizhena at the Coalition Camp, while solving the Traitor quest, and by then you've seen a little more of one another and so might more credibly be imagined to be no longer complete strangers. So perhaps add a dialogue option when questioning Mizhena about the stolen candle - "By the way, Mizhena ... that's an unusual name, I've never heard it before. Where is it from?", and so on into the explanation (not now with the extra level because you're not such strangers).
Best of all, I like the idea which came out elsewhere in this thread just now, that Mizhena should mention her transgender identity because it's relevant to a new quest which she's giving you (but obviously that'd be a lot more work, so I realise that it's highly unlikely!
I mean you didn't even bother adding a rude option, a romantic option, a "don't care" option etc. All you have done is give a lazy solution to lazy writing? Might as well just leave her unchanged...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I must admit, ever since I read the "hints" given to us in other threads regarding the Mizhena update I am starting not to give a damn. It is obvious beamdog wants her to remain as nothing more than a tick in their progressive checklist boxes. If beamdog doesn't care, then why should we?
Funny how other companies have the ability to implement T characters people like while beamdog somehow fumbled miserably (heck capcom even created an entire cult following over one!!).
- In Final Fight, she's a post-op M to F transsexual... but it's only mentioned in the Japanese instruction booklet.
- In Final Fight Revenge, she's still MtF but Capcom USA didn't know that and tried to tease Poison/Cody. Cue shitstorm.
- Then Japan localized Final Fight Revenge and retconned the whole thing to make Poison a simple gay crossdresser.
- Finally Street Fighter IV came out and Poison was retconned again, this time to be a pre-op M to F transsexual.
It was a long journey full of confusion and people getting angry. Not exactly a shining example of "transgender character done right". Not to mention she's a transsexual, not a transgender (except when he's a crossdresser I suppose).
And then there's the whole other can of worms being how Poison is presented as a fetish object for male players...
Basically, it's almost as bad as an example as Naruto. In fact it might actually be worse.
Also, I find that having a character who is dressed like a sex object is distasteful. I certainly find that it demeans and cheapens the character. I'd be happier with characters who dress 'realistically.'
Fighting games: Don't wear high heels to a street fight. Don't wear clothing that is literally falling off.
Medieval Games: Don't wear armor that exposes skin/cleavage. If your armor has gaps that allow a sword to go through so males can see your skin, your armor is wrong.
Shooter Games: Don't wear a tank top when all of the guys have body armor on. Also don't wear short shorts when the guys have long pants. There is a reason we don't wear shorts. Low crawling, or shooting while kneeling, in shorts would suck. You'd get all cut up. Thick material pants is essential.
For the above, I'd be much happier to see her designed to look like a female boxer. You know, someone who actually fights, wearing clothing that one would fight in.
So I am guessing Poison's female fans who cosplay themselves as poison are just sex-objects too huh? Is this "How dare someone have a great body and show it off" type of attitude some type of new age progressive trend? Screw that lol (Also what about us males who hit the gym to gain assets to flaunt? So I guess we are all just a sex-objects too right?)
Finally you are asking for realism in games where you can [Haduken] fireball people from far...........
Back on topic though I will say it again. Even if you hate evil sexiness (lol!) and are forced in a ultra low-tech/magic world then just use bioware as an example instead of capcom. Both companies did better than beamdog so pick your poison *pun intended*