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If only Kagain had been a recruitable NPC in SoD

gattberserkgattberserk Member Posts: 154
I did a clone of him using the 6 custom adventure option in Single Player mode, and this is what will happen for his combat prowress had he been recruitable via legit means,




Every stats about him remain the same and they are based on recruiting him at Beregrost right from level 1 (Hence Grandmaster in his Axe proficiency). No cheating is used.

For Sure he is pretty godly even before I could reach chapter 10 (At Boareskyr), not to mention he isnt getting the best items for fighter (such as Helm + Cloak of Balduran) since that belong to my Charname -GM Dual-Wielding Scimitar Half-Orc Fighter.

I had Coran too and He is also pretty good although nothing too spectacular, yet! (Haven complete yet)


Abilities:

Str: 19 (Big Fisted Belt)
Dex: 18 (Gauntlet of Dex)
Con: 19 (Claw of Kazagoth + Tome of Constitution)
Int: 6
Wisdom: 11
Charisma: 8

Lawful Evil
Fighter (Level 9)
Dwarf

Again, no cheating used. His saving throw are about 0-3, literally demi-godlike.
CrevsDaak
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Comments

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 11,674
    You can always create a dwarf fighter main character, though :)

    A dwarf is a good choice for SoD, considering dwarf-specific items there.

    And I think a dwarf fighter/cleric may be even more tough as a tank.
    GrumAerakarCrevsDaakcreateaccount
  • gattberserkgattberserk Member Posts: 154

    You can always create a dwarf fighter main character, though :)

    A dwarf is a good choice for SoD, considering dwarf-specific items there.

    And I think a dwarf fighter/cleric may be even more tough as a tank.

    Hmm the whole point is not to create a godly charname just to face-roll this game, I believe it is not hard to create charname much better than any NPC available in BGEE.

    Rather it is to replicate that -what if the all BGEE NPCs were recruitable in SoD - scenarios. I am sure all of us felt extremely disappointed when Branwen, Kivan, Kagain, Coran all went missing after the first dungeon. It pissed me off in fact TBH, didnt feel like BG at all.
  • PaladinPaladin Member Posts: 322
    I thought you could bring any of your NPC companions over into SOD.
  • PaulGreystokePaulGreystoke Member Posts: 52
    Paladin said:

    I thought you could bring any of your NPC companions over into SOD.

    You can, but that doesn't mean that you can make them stay with you.


    At the end of the first dungeon on SOD, all of your companions leave you & go their separate ways. Imoen leaves your party even before the dungeon , although Safana will replace her for the dungeon crawl if you have no thief in the party. Only some of the BGI NPCs are recruitable again later in SOD - Safana, Minsc & Dynaheir, Viconia, Edwin, Jaheira, & Khalid - along with the 4 EE NPCs - Rasaad, Baeloth, Dorn, & Neera. In addition, there are 4 new recruitable NPCs - Glint, M'Khiin, Voghiln, & Corwin.
    CrevsDaak
  • PaladinPaladin Member Posts: 322
    Weird. Why not just let you keep them?
    CrevsDaak
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 409
    edited February 2
    I'm sure they would have, but that would have meant bigger production costs..More VA's(assuming they could find them all) and party banters for each one. Overall they would need a reason to stay with the PC and join the the expedition to Dragonspear as well. By the end of BG1 I think Kagain is wealthy enough to retire, there is no reason for him to risk his life on a campaign.

    I like Kagain as well though..and other npcs I wish had been written into the SoD campaign.
    Aerakar
  • PaladinPaladin Member Posts: 322
    Do they give a good reason why each NPC leaves? I think Ajantis might head out to go join the Order of the Radiant Heart, for example.
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 409
    edited February 2
    They say a few lines in the starting dungeon, I don't know all of them. How good it is..*shrug*

    With Kagain specifically though I see no reason why a local money grubbing mercenary would join a risky expedition^^
    Juris
  • gattberserkgattberserk Member Posts: 154
    edited February 3
    batoor said:

    They say a few lines in the starting dungeon, I don't know all of them. How good it is..*shrug*

    With Kagain specifically though I see no reason why a local money grubbing mercenary would join a risky expedition^^

    For fame and more wealth.

    Sometime logic doesnt always have to apply. In ToB you are able to recruit every single NPCs in BG2 without having the need to join Charname to fight for godhood. For eg.

    If beamdog have done ToB instead, Keldorn would no longer be available for sure, for he need to accompany his family.
    CrevsDaak
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 814
    Paladin said:

    Do they give a good reason why each NPC leaves? I think Ajantis might head out to go join the Order of the Radiant Heart, for example.

    Not really, there is some dialog but it comes up on screen as you are playing so it's easy to miss.
    It would have been nice if each had approached you, like they do when you tell them to leave the party, and said a proper goodbye.
    Especially those NPC who never made it to BG2.

    You mention Ajantis, it would have been a nice poignant touch had he said something about looking forward to his future as a knight with what ends up happening.
  • ifupaulineifupauline Member Posts: 392
    edited February 3
    I never understood why Kagain didn't make it to BG2. What kind of lower being would trade Kagain for Korgan? What is his name? Who did this genius 3 intel move? I will get him!!!
    CrevsDaak
  • gattberserkgattberserk Member Posts: 154
    Actually I forget Kagain can wear the Helm of Domathoin, Making him even more OP considering its nullify the disadvantage of Claws of Kazagoth
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 398
    Okay, I just saw this, Branwen isn't available? By Valkur's epiglottis, is thee no justice in the world? Not having her in BG2 was disappointing enough.
    AerakarCrevsDaakJuris
  • CloutierCloutier Member Posts: 188
    I would much rather have seen Beamdog porting BG NPCs to SoD than making new ones *again*.
    Juris
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 667
    edited February 6
    tbone1 said:

    Okay, I just saw this, Branwen isn't available? By Valkur's epiglottis, is thee no justice in the world? Not having her in BG2 was disappointing enough.

    theres a mod for bg2 that adds her.

    "I would much rather have seen Beamdog porting BG NPCs to SoD than making new ones *again*."

    they only made three new npcs for sod. Voghiln was in blackpits 2. besides safana dyna and khalid all the returning bg1 characters were the ones that came back in 2.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,658
    Cloutier said:

    I would much rather have seen Beamdog porting BG NPCs to SoD than making new ones *again*.

    Normally I would agree with you, but they've proven themselves pretty incapable of keeping existing personalities (even when those personalities are a mere shell) intact, so...
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,187
    Quartz said:

    Cloutier said:

    I would much rather have seen Beamdog porting BG NPCs to SoD than making new ones *again*.

    Normally I would agree with you, but they've proven themselves pretty incapable of keeping existing personalities (even when those personalities are a mere shell) intact, so...
    Those personalities being "mere shells" are precisely why it was impossible to make the re-written characters fine for everyone. Their former "personalities", if one can call 10 selection /move sentences and a couple of banters a personality, left way too much room for interpretation.
    GrumSkatan
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,423
    Arunsun said:

    Those personalities being "mere shells" are precisely why it was impossible to make the re-written characters fine for everyone. Their former "personalities", if one can call 10 selection /move sentences and a couple of banters a personality, left way too much room for interpretation.

    Why? Because your interpretation would have been different? ...
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,658
    Arunsun said:

    Quartz said:

    Cloutier said:

    I would much rather have seen Beamdog porting BG NPCs to SoD than making new ones *again*.

    Normally I would agree with you, but they've proven themselves pretty incapable of keeping existing personalities (even when those personalities are a mere shell) intact, so...
    Those personalities being "mere shells" are precisely why it was impossible to make the re-written characters fine for everyone. Their former "personalities", if one can call 10 selection /move sentences and a couple of banters a personality, left way too much room for interpretation.
    Difficult, but not impossible. It requires a lot of humbleness and empathy with the original writers -- something that, truthfully, professional editors are better at than professional creative writers.

    Sure, there's bound to be some members of the community upset at this or that decision, but a lot of the decisions they made in terms of characterization of the original NPCs was incredibly ham-fisted and totally out of character. Even plenty of the BGII NPCs suffered from it.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,187
    edited February 12

    Arunsun said:

    Those personalities being "mere shells" are precisely why it was impossible to make the re-written characters fine for everyone. Their former "personalities", if one can call 10 selection /move sentences and a couple of banters a personality, left way too much room for interpretation.

    Why? Because your interpretation would have been different? ...
    Because interpretations vary depending on people, that's what interpretation means.

    If you really want further development, well, the way the characters were written by Beamdog's writers may have fit their interpretation, but not that of everyone. It is not so much the quality of writing that is often reproached, but more the fact that the writing does not fit the personality. This second point is much more subjective et dependant on interpretation of the very few banters we got in BG
    QuartzSkatan
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,658
    Arunsun said:

    Because interpretations vary depending on people, that's what interpretation means.

    If you really want further development, well, the way the characters were written by Beamdog's writers may have fit their interpretation, but not that of everyone. It is not so much the quality of writing that is often reproached, but more the fact that the writing does not fit the personality. This second point is much more subjective et dependant on interpretation of the very few banters we got in BG

    I mostly agree. Some of the quality of the writing was pretty awful in BG:EE (some of Dorn's quest line dialogues make me cringe) and BGII:EE (basically everything Hexxat-related) but I thought they did a pretty excellent job with SoD.

    And no, I'm not saying the original developers of BG and BGII were flawless. Some of their stuff makes me cringe to this day.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 667
    i think beamdogs major issue is writing evil npcs. all the new sod npcs are some form of good and they seem fine to me. same with neera and rassad. it's dorn and hexxat that cause so many issues.
    QuartzCrevsDaak
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,658
    edited February 13

    i think beamdogs major issue is writing evil npcs. all the new sod npcs are some form of good and they seem fine to me. same with neera and rassad. it's dorn and hexxat that cause so many issues.

    Ding ding ding

    I want to like Dorn so badly but every time I try to pick him up it's just a massive cringe-fest for me.

    Hexxat, LOL yeah no. Also sad because I liked the idea of an evil single-class thief in BGII.
    Juris
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 409
    edited February 13
    Just curious what is it specifically about Dorn that bothers you guys? I have my own issues with him, but I'm not sure if those are the same, so I'm just curious.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 814

    i think beamdogs major issue is writing evil npcs. all the new sod npcs are some form of good and they seem fine to me. same with neera and rassad. it's dorn and hexxat that cause so many issues.

    I wonder sometimesif the writers are suffering from a sort of latter day "Hays Code". That old Hollywood code that meant "moral" guidelines have to apply.

    Often the original "evil" characters say what you'd like to say if you were a complete bastard, and all of us want to be a complete bastard sometimes. But that doesn't mean that what they say doesn't ring true. That's what I find with the Beamdog NPC, little of what they say rings true.

    Quartz
  • gattberserkgattberserk Member Posts: 154
    edited February 13
    I finally completed SOD and finally here is my *imported* Kagain / Coran equipments.



    Kagain:





    Coran:




    Sylvus_Moonbow
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,423
    Arunsun said:

    Because interpretations vary depending on people, that's what interpretation means.

    Which is my exact point. You're never going to make everyone happy with the way you choose to interpret something, so you may as well just interpret it the way you want to. If others don't like it, then...oh, well!

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,658
    edited February 13
    batoor said:

    Just curious what is it specifically about Dorn that bothers you guys? I have my own issues with him, but I'm not sure if those are the same, so I'm just curious.

    1. His motives for being gratuitously evil don't really add up.

    So he had something of a tragic upbringing (like many half-orcs) and his first taste of camaraderie and friendship was met with betrayal. This is usually enough to make a person extremely distrusting (like he is!), but somehow this leads him to act ... Chaotic Evil, despite his alignment saying Neutral Evil? OK. He revels in slaughter to feel empowered, because he feels disenfranchised and felt insignificant and oppressed in his youth. Here's where it gets me: HE SOLD HIS SOUL TO A DEMON. The most distrusting, independent half-orc there is willingly decided to become someone's tool? What. Even. And I understand his questline in BGII can ... solve ... this dilemma but why was it an issue in the first place? Why does he never at least question this allegiance until BGII?


    I still need to play him all the way through BGII to 100% form my opinion here but his character seems unintentionally at odds with itself for BG1 and SoD.

    2. His motives for being with CHARNAME are weeeeaaaak. "Oh you're powerful and there's a lot of bloodshed in your wake, I'll hang out with you even though I distrust everyone." Under the guise of "but I can just walk away at any time, even though I admit CHARNAME is perhaps more powerful than myself." ...Huh?? Not completely unbelievable but what... This doesn't condemn him completely, because many of the original game's characters have little to no reason to hang out with you, but still.

    3. I'm still butt-mad (read: butt-furious) that Beamdog promised us an intelligently evil character and his motives for being evil are weak. This is more of a personal expectation problem than a problem with the game itself. It's not like Beamdog pulled a No Man's Sky or anything, one under-delivered promise isn't the end of the world. It's not as if the original game doesn't have plenty of unintelligently evil characters in it.
    Juris
  • GrumGrum Member Posts: 1,892
    For Dorn, we don't know when he made the deal with his soul. But I think it is believable to say that it was what got him out of that prison in Luskan. And for staying with Charname, he first uses you to get his vengeance, and then his patron tells him to keep hanging out with you. Makes more sense to me than Alora, for example.
    AerakarQuartz
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,423
    edited February 14
    Yeah, I mean, it's not like people were 1) possibly evil before they signed a deal with a fiend AND 2) made a desperate deal to save their own ass, a deal which keeps biting them in the ass again and again. That's not a thing, at all. It's not like no one in real world history ever made a deal that backfires on them repeatedly.../sarcasm

    If you pay attention to his story, the people Dorn originally wants revenge on, they did some pretty damn evil things, or at least such is implied. Which further implies that Dorn was a pretty huge bastard BEFORE he ended up in the Luskan prison.
    AerakarThacoBell
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