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If only Kagain had been a recruitable NPC in SoD

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Comments

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,081
    batoor said:

    Just curious what is it specifically about Dorn that bothers you guys? I have my own issues with him, but I'm not sure if those are the same, so I'm just curious.

    Self important and arrogant, no sense of humour and ugly.
    I've played BG2 Dorn once, the game is the story of the Bhaalspawn, not Dorn. I was just bored hearing about his issues, not so different for me than listening to Aerie banging on about her wings.

    Also the fight where he threatens to leave until you beat him. Does that happen when you are romancing him as well?
    Anyway, just came across as deeply immature and irritating.
    Things to do, places to see, people to talk to and you are playing this little boy game?
    Even Anomen doesn't behave that childishly.
    Quartz
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,701
    edited February 14
    Would appreciate if y'all would do more than skim my posts when directly responding to them.

    @Grum "Makes more sense to me than Alora, for example."

    Very true, I agree.
    Me: "This doesn't condemn him completely, because many of the original game's characters have little to no reason to hang out with you, but still."

    @rapsam2003 "made a desperate deal to save their own ass, a deal which keeps biting them in the ass again and again. That's not a thing, at all. It's not like no one in real world history ever made a deal that backfires on them repeatedly.../sarcasm"

    Me: "Why does he never at least question this allegiance until BGII?"

    My problem is that in BG1 you can point out how his allegiance to his patron is a mistake, and he doesn't even pause to consider how you might have a point. He doesn't even offer a good counterpoint, he just says something akin to "I like the bloodshed bruh! There's perks!" For the strong independent half-orc who don't need no man that he is, this is extremely short-sighted and not at all fitting for someone with 15 Wisdom.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,444
    edited February 14
    Quartz said:

    @rapsam2003 "made a desperate deal to save their own ass, a deal which keeps biting them in the ass again and again. That's not a thing, at all. It's not like no one in real world history ever made a deal that backfires on them repeatedly.../sarcasm"

    Me: "Why does he never at least question this allegiance until BGII?"

    My problem is that in BG1 you can point out how his allegiance to his patron is a mistake, and he doesn't even pause to consider how you might have a point. He doesn't even offer a good counterpoint, he just says something akin to "I like the bloodshed bruh! There's perks!" For the strong independent half-orc who don't need no man that he is, this is extremely short-sighted and not at all fitting for someone with 15 Wisdom.

    Have you ever tried asking someone why they did X mistake, before they wanted to admit X was a mistake? People don't want to admit that they are wrong. When the pain of being wrong is high enough, some admit their mistake. (Others never do.)

    Being able to consider, in BG2, the possibility that the pact he made was a mistake is what makes Dorn a believable character. He's done with revenge. He has helped you in BG1 and in SOD. You find him in BG2, after you've been imprisoned (presumably, for a few months) by Irenicus. It's not an unreasonable assumption that Dorn has had some time to consider the cost of his pact - and that consideration is further strengthened when:
    is forced to kill wedding guests and later kill Guardian Telwyn ( http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Dorn's_bloody_path#Walkthrough ).

    In the end, as we know, the choices the player makes determine whether Dorn betrays his current demon patron or whether he takes a new patron. In the end, Dorn is responsible for his actions, regardless.
    ThacoBellJuliusBorisovrrchristensenGirewan
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,701
    You two make good points. I just wish Beamdog hadn't promised us an intelligently-evil character when he is not -- and I remember seeing his stats before BG:EE came out and thinking, "sweet, 15 wisdom evil character, this should be awesome" before being quite disappointed. His wisdom is extremely lacking and I'm not sure what they were thinking ... there are some original BG1 characters who also have stats that don't seem to match up and it's bothersome. (Garrick's 14 Wisdom? what)
    JuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,444
    edited February 15
    Quartz said:

    "sweet, 15 wisdom evil character, this should be awesome" before being quite disappointed. His wisdom is extremely lacking and I'm not sure what they were thinking ... there are some original BG1 characters who also have stats that don't seem to match up and it's bothersome. (Garrick's 14 Wisdom? what)

    To address this...

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_gameplay#Ability_scores :
    Wisdom (WIS): Wisdom is a composite term for the character's enlightenment, judgment, wile, willpower and intuitiveness. Wisdom influences the number of spells a divine spellcaster (like clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can cast per day, and the effectiveness of said spells. It also affects saving throws and linked skills.


    In other words, a high wisdom attribute does NOT necessarily imply that the character is wise or is intelligent.

    Besides, if you view things through the lens of "that's bad" (vs. D&D's acceptance of evil, neutral, & good alignments/actions), then he may not appear very wise. He is actually a very interesting character with depth if you give him a chance, imho. Yeah, games typically don't get into the same depth as if we were discussing real people, but they give us a template for our own interpretation and our imagination. :)
    ThacoBell
  • JurisJuris Member Posts: 113
    edited February 15
    Dorn has a perfectly sound reason for sticking around - he's hot for charname of both genders lol

    Agree that Kagain (and probably Branwen) should have been included in SoD - Kagain was a mercenary who ditched his company for to follow charname for gold - why would he ever leave? Branwen was a priestess of Tempus - no shortage of fighting following charname around.
    rrchristensen
  • ifupaulineifupauline Member Posts: 393
    edited February 16
    charname : ho kagain, wasup, long time no see, i need your services
    Kagain : how much?
    charname : how about...

    "You lost 2000 gold"
    "Kagain joined the party"

    This is some high knowledge in story making you need to include Kagain.
    CrevsDaak
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,444
    Juris said:

    Agree that Kagain (and probably Branwen) should have been included in SoD - Kagain was a mercenary who ditched his company for to follow charname for gold - why would he ever leave?

    Mercenaries usually have specific reasons for wanting to be rich, such as "I want to retire". The "I must have more gold" trope isn't always in play. Why would Kagain follow the Bhaalspawn around after he retired? He wouldn't.

    "Go find someone else, CHARNAME!"
    GrumCrevsDaak
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,701
    edited February 18

    To address this...

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons_gameplay#Ability_scores :

    Wisdom (WIS): Wisdom is a composite term for the character's enlightenment, judgment, wile, willpower and intuitiveness. Wisdom influences the number of spells a divine spellcaster (like clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can cast per day, and the effectiveness of said spells. It also affects saving throws and linked skills.
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. Dorn's judgment is among the worst in the game. He has to have CHARNAME question someone because he's so unintuitive he doesn't realize interrogation doesn't work on all subjects.

    In other words, a high wisdom attribute does NOT necessarily imply that the character is wise or is intelligent.

    Except it does imply that the character is wise because it's called friggin' "wisdom" and wisdom means "good judgment" (among other things), which is listed in the D&D definition you just gave me.

    Intelligence =/= wisdom at all, I never made that correlation. If anything his intelligence is higher than his wisdom anyhow.

    Besides, if you view things through the lens of "that's bad" (vs. D&D's acceptance of evil, neutral, & good alignments/actions), then he may not appear very wise.

    I did not state anything even resembling "that's bad" to reinforce my argument that I believe Dorn does not have anywhere near a 15 Wisdom.

    He is actually a very interesting character with depth if you give him a chance, imho. Yeah, games typically don't get into the same depth as if we were discussing real people, but they give us a template for our own interpretation and our imagination. :)

    Yeah, I've tried giving him a chance several times before cringing to death; I'm prepared to try again soon though.
  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 593
    edited February 27
    The lack of a dwarven companion irks me. Kagain or Yeslick would have been amazing! It makes sense Yeslick leaves. I'm assuming he'd try to rebuild his clan or what-not
    AerakarQuartzGrum
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 492
    edited February 28
    If only he was. It was way too easy to buff Kagain to nigh-invincible early game stats provided he had a level or two to his name.

    Him and Coran are the true MVP's of BG1 that's for sure

    Post number #100! Huzzah!
    JuliusBorisovAerakarQuartz
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,546

    Juris said:

    Agree that Kagain (and probably Branwen) should have been included in SoD - Kagain was a mercenary who ditched his company for to follow charname for gold - why would he ever leave?

    Mercenaries usually have specific reasons for wanting to be rich, such as "I want to retire". The "I must have more gold" trope isn't always in play. Why would Kagain follow the Bhaalspawn around after he retired? He wouldn't.

    "Go find someone else, CHARNAME!"
    You should consider that in dwarven culture a guy's reputation can be based on how much gold he has.
  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 593
    edited March 1

    The lack of a dwarven companion irks me. Kagain or Yeslick would have been amazing! It makes sense Yeslick leaves. I'm assuming he'd try to rebuild his clan or what-not

    In my headcanon, Yeslick reclaims the Cloakwood Mine & tries to reestablish his clan. I always worry about him though - I believe his low Intelligence is a sign of early onset Dwarven Alzheimer's, & I hope he finds caregivers that can help him as he slowly succumbs to the disease. :(


    I thought of a possible cure! If given the Big Fisted belt, his intelligence is lowered a bit. HOWEVER, maybe it also PREVENTS furthur mental deterioration! In this way, he can stay at a sentient level (admittedly only Minsc-level sentience) for the rest of his days.

    Further testing of this treatment is needed before DDA (Dwarven Drug Administration) approval. Possible side effects include intense phobia of mind flayers.
    PaulGreystokeJuliusBorisovGrum
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,444
    DJKajuru said:

    You should consider that in dwarven culture a guy's reputation can be based on how much gold he has.

    If Kagain were living in a Dwarven fastness, as opposed to a mostly human town, then I would agree with that line of thought as a motivation.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,546

    DJKajuru said:

    You should consider that in dwarven culture a guy's reputation can be based on how much gold he has.

    If Kagain were living in a Dwarven fastness, as opposed to a mostly human town, then I would agree with that line of thought as a motivation.

    You can take Kagain away from the Citadel, but you can't take the citadel away from Kagain.
    Aerakar
  • GrumGrum Member Posts: 1,899
    I headcanon Kagain to wanting gold so that he can return to his clan with head held up high. "Nobody can look down on me anymore! I'm filthy rich, you dirt-diggers. Now you have to accept me."
    DJKajuruAerakar
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 287
    Kagain joins you initially to see something threatening his way of life dealt with. His blasé attitude about seeing it fully done makes me chuckle but he tells you he probably would have ignored it initially if Entar Silvershield wasn't involved to start with. Sticking with you to the end of BG1 and becoming very rich turns out to be a major bonus. But he really is probably reaching the end of his interest and thus presence with you as those events climax and wind down. Hearing him talk about not in the mood to take another hammer blow to the helmet on your behalf would have been icing for me.

    Just like I enjoyed Xan's adamant stance that not even char name could drag him into another crypt or dungeon for a very long time.

    Branwen's departure however sadened me a bit. I understand it's partly an RL thing behind it. But when I step back I also realize she was probably one of the ones least likely to be able to continue. After an unknown ammount of time turned to stone and months traveling to defeat Sarevok. She'll likely not to be able to get away from duties to her temple for a very long time.
    AerakarThacoBell
  • GrumGrum Member Posts: 1,899
    Is there a list of what all NPCs says when they leave?
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 426
    At least there is the option to create your own party. Given how little vanilla content there is regarding companions in the original game, cloning an NPC like @gattberserk did seems like a good idea.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 287
    They are all just banter comments that can kind of be missed as your doing the prologue dungeon in the crypt. Not all of them even have full voice lines to them for obvious reasons.

    The only ones I remember and have really seen at this point.

    Dynaheir and Minsc say something about needing to return to Rasheman (which gets postponed).
    Xan's is basically up above in my previous post(sounding like an end to his adventuring career which is fine. He never really wanted to be one to start with).
    Branwen says something about how she could use a rest after all of this I want say. (but I may be remembering this one wrong).

    Imoen was my 5th and so we don't get a line from her.
  • DorcusDorcus Member Posts: 71
    Beamdog, Kagain solo adventure, when? You can manage his mercenary company, take contracts, and then get bored and quit halfway through quests to go get drunk. It'll be great.
    Aerakar
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Branwen and Xan would have made perfect sense to include. They are at the Ducal Palace if you play the tutorial in BG2. Even if it is just a tutorial it kind of puts them right in the starting area of SoD. Replacing Viconia with Branwen would have removed a lot of plot-holes and continuity issues as well.
    Aerakar
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 301
    Dorcus said:

    Beamdog, Kagain solo adventure, when? You can manage his mercenary company, take contracts, and then get bored and quit halfway through quests to go get drunk. It'll be great.

    This gives me an idea for a thread on spin-offs...
    Aerakar
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