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What Bodhi says about CHARNAME's abduction

There is this unused state in bodhi.dlg:

IF ~~ THEN BEGIN 86 // from:
SAY #42779 /* ~Irenicus requested a service of the Shadow Thieves, for which they demanded your capture as payment. You are of great interest to them, as you probably know.~ */
IF ~~ THEN GOTO 87
END


What she does say is:
IF ~~ THEN BEGIN 89 // from: 88.2 88.1 88.0
SAY #42788 /* ~I will get to that in a moment. While you were in Jon's... "care," he discovered the potential you have and resolved to aid your development. ~ */
IF ~~ THEN GOTO 90
END


Seems like BioWare wanted to go a different path with this than SoD now does. Because in SoD,
irenicus seems to test and hand-pick CHARNAME before the abduction because of his/her potential.

Of course Bodhi could not be fully informed about the whole thing, and maybe Irenicus discovered the PC's full potential only after the abduction. I still think it's an interesting find, espescially the idea about a deeper involvement of the Shadow Thieves for CHARNAME's abduction.

ronaldoQuartzJuliusBorisov

Comments

  • filcat88filcat88 Member Posts: 115
    edited February 2017
    The thing is in SOD Irenicus does not know if CHARNAME is really suitable for his needs. He has the choice between CHARNAME and Caelar Argent. So, yeah I am pretty sure that Irenicus has a complete knowledge of your potential after some "care".

    About the Shadow Thieves, I cannot say much. I know that a Shadow Thief is involved in BG1, nearly at the end of the game, but i dont know if they have an interest in CHARNAME.

    JuliusBorisov
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    "Nobody crosses the Shadow Thieves and lives"

    Interesting find.
    I wonder what the writers were planning as the SW's "great interest" in Charname?
    That does make the attack on CI more relevent, Irenicus nicked their payment.
    Could also explain the dialog from Aran Linval about not being sure of Charname's trustworthyness.

    I think you just have to ignore anything from SOD.

    QuartzProont
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,879
    Oh, I guess SoD works fine if taking @filcat88's note into account. It's just when I read the state 89 the first time I thought 'huh?'.
    And to the unused state about the ST hiring Irenicus to kidnap CHARNAME, that is already contradicted by what Aran Linvail tells the PC, about them thinking ID was Bodhi's hideout, so to say (that's why they attacked, they were searching for the 'other' guild's headquarters.)
    Still, it's curious to find these.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,774
    I'm guessing that first line of dialogue never got used because they were still working out the plot at the time. The final plot of BG2 made it clear that the Shadow Thieves didn't even know you existed until you climbed out of the rubble in Waukeen's Promenade, so there's no reason they would ask Irenicus to capture you.

    JuliusBorisovThacoBellProont
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,879
    Actually, Aran said they did notice CHARNAME's abduction, but they didn't know where (s)he was held captive. They definitely did not go after Irenicus because of the PC. From Aran.dlg:
    #47839 /* ~Aran's tasks to receive the Shadow Thieves' aid.

    (...)

    The Shadow Thieves have been interested in me from the beginning. They were aware of my capture, but thought it nothing more than a simple kidnapping and none of their business. However, soon after that Bodhi appeared and their members started disappearing. They thought another guild was converting them, making a bid for control of the city's underground, and directed an attack against what they thought was the guild headquarters, Irenicus' dungeon below Waukeen's.

    They were totally unprepared for how strong Irenicus was. After the battle they set their sights on me, because I was the only thing that came out of that dungeon alive. Since I was of such interest to Irenicus they needed to know what I was up to. Once they realized that Irenicus was a threat to us both, they sought to aid me, while also aiding themselves. Their intentions were good, despite their selfish motive. (...)


    But yes, we agree in general that the line was unused and for the released game doesn't make sense any more, either.

    semiticgoddessfilcat88Proont
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,879
    Hm, on the other hand, in the second area of ID, in the north-west corner where the vampyre is, one of the Shadow Thieves says "Enough! Kill this creature and raze the guild. Irenicus shall learn what it is to betray the Shadow Thieves!"

    So yes, they seem to expect it to ba a"guild", but otoh they also sound as if they had a deal with Irenicus, so they knew him in some way before they attacked. Mysterious.

    Proont
  • filcat88filcat88 Member Posts: 115
    edited February 2017
    jastey said:

    Hm, on the other hand, in the second area of ID, in the north-west corner where the vampyre is, one of the Shadow Thieves says "Enough! Kill this creature and raze the guild. Irenicus shall learn what it is to betray the Shadow Thieves!"

    So yes, they seem to expect it to ba a"guild", but otoh they also sound as if they had a deal with Irenicus, so they knew him in some way before they attacked. Mysterious.


    Not 100% sure, but most likely Irenicus hired the shadow thieves to abduct Charnanme and his party at the end of SOD (or the beginning of BG2).
    So, yeah, they know each other.

    Then, Irenicus, with the help of his beloved sister, started to take shadow thieves for experiments. The Shadow thieves then attacked the Irenicus' dungeon, and this started the plot in BG2...

    The rest is history...

    As I said not 100 % sure, maybe you guys/gals can confirm.

    DJKajuruProont
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    The Shadow Thieves knew about Charname from BG, they turn up there and they would have heard about Sarevok being your "brother". It does make sense that they would hire or come to a beneficial agreement with a powerful mage if they wanted to abduct you.
    In BG, they hire you to steal the stuff for the Halruns(sp) and when you kill the contact, it's specifically stated by the leader that you are too powerful to have any fear of the the Thieves Guild.

    Irenicus then double crosses them because he finds out you are a Bhaalspawn.
    That does make sense, gives a reason for Irenicus to have ever crossed your path. Also goes some way to explain how Irenicus was so established in Athkatla, that dungeon set up must have taken years to put together, unlikely without the Shadow Thieves being aware of it.

    Of course that storyline was abandoned, I suspect because it was too much of a stretch for you to then work with the ST (and also some explaination about why the ST even wanted you)?
    But it's still interesting to find references in the game.

    Thanks OP.

    JuliusBorisovgorgonzolaProont
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,879
    @filcat88 That makes a lot of sense. Looking at the intro pictures of the abduction before BGII starts, it's not unlikely it was Shadow Thieves. Doesn't go 100% together with Aran Linvail only stating that the Shadow Thieves were "aware" of the PC's abduction, though, and his explanation that they attacked Irenicus' Dungeon because they thought it's a rival guild headquarter, but hey, I wouldn't tell powerful CHARNAME all the little details if I were him, so...

    Thanks all for the discussion.

    filcat88Proont
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,879
    One year later, I made up my mind about the PC abduction scene: It wasn't Aran Linvail's Shadow Thieves, but Mae'Var's. BGT presents this solution directly in the transition cutscene, for SoD it's not explicit.
    Still, it makes a lot of sense (to me) and fills all the plotholes: Mae'Var doing some side jobs to get more gold for his rebellion.

    JuliusBorisovProontUnderstandMouseMagic
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