Fire Tooth Throwing Dagger

former_customer

Does Fire Tooth have a set rate of fire (at one attack per round)? And, if this is the case, is there a ranged alternative for a dagger grandmaster fighter type?

Grond0

The base APR is 2 and fighter, proficiency and item bonuses are on top of that. The Boomerang Dagger is available much earlier in BG2 and does pretty good damage until you can get Firetooth.

former_customer

You are the wind beneath my wings. Thank you. (There are sites which say that Fire Tooth is set to one APR, which made me almost as angry as when I found that you can repair Plunkett's Valid Points in Fallout 3.)

Grond0

There may be confusion on some sites with the Firetooth crossbow - that does have a base APR of 1.

former_customer

Yeah, I was wondering if that wasn't the problem. There were debates about the dagger being overpowered (and the APR set lower as a result), so in was concerned that it might really be nerfed.

Skatan

IIRC the description says/said that the APR is set to 1, but I dunno if that is changed in later patches. Haven't played BG2 in a year or so.

Arunsun

The firetooth dagger used to be very, very strong due to the fact ranged daggers were the only ranged weapons (as a weapon type, because some specific ranged weapons would as well) to apply strength bonus damage on the target.
Beamdog rebalanced that by giving other such weapons (hammers slings and axes. Maybe darts as well but I haven't checked that out ) strength bonus damage, and though daggers are still slightly better due to high base APR they are not so overwhelming.
This leaves bows and crossbows slightly underwhelming damage-wise but the access to a wide variety of ammos compensate for that.

Tresset

Arunsun said:

Beamdog rebalanced that by giving other such weapons (hammers slings and axes. Maybe darts as well but I haven't checked that out ) strength bonus damage...

Darts do not have strength bonus to damage. All other throwing weapons as well as slings do give the strength bonus to damage.

Also, the Boomerang and Firetooth daggers still have a base APR of 2 (or to be more accurate they both add 1 to whatever APR you would have with them).

SomeSort

Arunsun said:

The firetooth dagger used to be very, very strong due to the fact ranged daggers were the only ranged weapons (as a weapon type, because some specific ranged weapons would as well) to apply strength bonus damage on the target.
Beamdog rebalanced that by giving other such weapons (hammers slings and axes. Maybe darts as well but I haven't checked that out ) strength bonus damage, and though daggers are still slightly better due to high base APR they are not so overwhelming.
This leaves bows and crossbows slightly underwhelming damage-wise but the access to a wide variety of ammos compensate for that.

Darts do not get strength bonuses. (They'd be ludicrously overpowered if they did, especially given how easy it is to get the Crimson Dart.)

Shortbows, crossbows, and throwing daggers are about on par with each other if you're speccing out for max damage, (e.g. an Archer Ranger vs. a Thrower Kensai). My level 19 Archer, fresh out of the underdark, hits 5 APR with Tuigans without any boost, and with the unlimited +1 quiver he has -15 THACO and 13-18 damage, for an average of 15.5 per hit and 77.5 per round, (assuming 100% hit rate and critical hits offsetting critical misses).

A quick back-of-the-napkin calculation for a similar kensai with 21 strength, grandmastery in daggers and, Fire Tooth would have him at 4 APR with 5-11 from the weapon (+1-2 fire), +9 from strength, and +7 from his kit, (he'd be level 21 instead of level 19 for the Archer), for an average of 25.5 per hit and 102 per round. So that's about 33% more DPR, *BUT* that's largely because we're in the small chunk of the game where he has acquired Fire Tooth, but I have not yet acquired the Gauntlets of Weapon Specialization.

With the Gauntlets of Weapon Specialization (+2 damage per hit) and Acid Arrows (+1 damage per hit, +1-3 acid damage), my archer is now dealing 20 damage per hit and 100 per round, right on par with the Kensai. (Assuming no immunities, though fire is more common than acid, so that seems fair.)

Kai boosts the Kensai's damage output by 12 per round, but Called Shot boosts the Archer's by 10 per round and adds a host of useful debuffs. The Kensai will trounce the Archer against enemies that require +3 weapons to hit, but the Archer can hit things that require +4 or better and the Kensai can't. The Kensai gets a shield, but the archer gets armor. The Kensai is better when switching to melee. The archer gets arrows of dispelling. The Kensai scales better in ToB. The Archer wrecks face in BG1. Really, it's a complete wash.

For a hypothetical Crossbow Archer at a similar point, with Firetooth and Kuo-Toa bolts that would be 3 APR, -18 THACO, and 17-27 damage (+2 fire) with Firetooth. (Kuo-Toa bolts aren't unlimited, but on this trip through the Underdark I got 639 of them, which will last you a good long time.) With Firetooth + Bolts of Lightning, it's 16-23 damage, +2 fire, +4-16 (no save) or 2-8 (with save).

Again assuming 100% hit rate (with critical hits offsetting critical misses), that's 72 DPR with KTs (with a save-or-be-stunned effect), 79.5 with BoL if the enemy makes every save, and 94.5 with BoL if the enemy misses every save.

Adding in the Gauntlets of Weapon Specialization brings those totals up to 78 with KT, 85.5 with BoL and every save, 100.5 with BoL and no saves. Adding the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization gets you to 84 / 99.75 / 117.25. And the Crossbow user has his own set of tricks-- Firetooth + normal bolts will disrupt mages through both PFMW *and* Stoneskin, for instance.

So yeah, speccing for max damage, daggers, shortbows, and crossbows will all be getting you about 100 damage per round by the end of SoA. All very balanced against each other.

If you're not speccing for max damage, (say, if you're looking for supplementary damage out of a Mage or a Thief), daggers are probably better for a protagonist imported from BG1, (who presumably would have 19 strength), while Tuigan shortbow and Crimson Dart are going to rule the roost for NPCs like Nalia and Imoen, (who don't get a strength bonus, anyway).