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What a problem with reviews of Siege of Dragonspear gog/steam?

24

Comments

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 609
    Wesboi said:


    At least the writing can't get worse

    Oh, things can always get worse.
    semiticgod
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 4,794
    ThacoBell said:

    "At least the writing can't get worse" Really? SoD is absolute bottom of the barrel terrible writing? Bad fanfiction? Bathroom Graffitti? A toddler's random scribblings? Nope, SoD: confirmed worst writing evar.

    @ThacoBell Perhaps the writing of professional game studios and bathroom graffiti should be held to different standards.
    ArtonaTeo_live
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,588
    Bigfish said:

    ThacoBell said:

    "At least the writing can't get worse" Really? SoD is absolute bottom of the barrel terrible writing? Bad fanfiction? Bathroom Graffitti? A toddler's random scribblings? Nope, SoD: confirmed worst writing evar.

    There's a lot to be said for Bathroom graffiti. It leaves a lot to the imagination. Just who is Cheryl? What constitutes a good time? Is that number real? Was that message left in the yester-years of time and while Cheryl may have been down for a good time in 1994, now you'll just be bothering some guy named Paul?

    Similarly, fan fiction can be amazing just to see the terrible quality that can go in to a work. I mean have you seen the Resident Evil movies? Its like someone wrote bad fanfiction (complete with waifu), and they gave them millions of dollars to turn it in to a block buster.
    This is my favorite comment of the week.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 4,260
    Pokota said:

    I wonder how many people reviewing SoD today with complaints about linearity would give the same criticisms to the Icewind Dale series...

    That's my main complaint with SOD, way too linear. I played IWDEE and TOB twice each I think due to linearity but have played BG and BG2 dozens of times over the years.

    So I would have the same criticisms.
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 262

    Pokota said:

    I wonder how many people reviewing SoD today with complaints about linearity would give the same criticisms to the Icewind Dale series...

    That's my main complaint with SOD, way too linear. I played IWDEE and TOB twice each I think due to linearity but have played BG and BG2 dozens of times over the years.

    So I would have the same criticisms.
    IWD was released as a more combat oriented game. Baldurs gate wasn't.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 4,260
    Wesboi said:

    Pokota said:

    I wonder how many people reviewing SoD today with complaints about linearity would give the same criticisms to the Icewind Dale series...

    That's my main complaint with SOD, way too linear. I played IWDEE and TOB twice each I think due to linearity but have played BG and BG2 dozens of times over the years.

    So I would have the same criticisms.
    IWD was released as a more combat oriented game. Baldurs gate wasn't.
    I realize that, I didn't like the linear plot. It could have been combat related and more open ended. The game is literally go to one fortress/dungeon/ pass it then it unlocks the next fortress/dungeon.

    I enjoyed it but had no real desire to return to it.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    The reviews were bad because SoD is one gigantic plot-hole. Because beloved characters got changed for "sjw" reasons. Because the game had a lot of bugs.

    The trans-hate narrative Beamdog spun so they could play the victim-card isn't even mentioned in most of the negative reviews. Plenty of transgendered players got on their backs too. But that got hushed down fast.

    Most of the good reviews, however, popped up the day\a few days after the CEO begged people to upvote their game, because "gamergate".
    VitharTeo_live
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,588
    filcat88 said:

    ooh come on. Enough with this SJW.
    Let's talk about the game and the story, not about some excuse to troll.

    Don't mind them. They berate and complain at every new release.
    Doodleroofilcat88
  • ObjulenObjulen Member Posts: 91
    SoD received lots of unwarranted negative attention by people who wanted to hate the game because they didn't like it having a goblin that talked about persecution or a transgender vendor. I recall reading one review claiming that Caelar Argent was a Mary Sue with no flaws, despite the glaringly (as in, neon sign worthy) obvious hubris of the character and the fact that she is entirely blind to how she is being manipulated.

    SoD has real flaws, IMHO -- such as the way it presents a returning character from BG2 and how that translates into BG2 -- but overall it's a solid, enjoyable game.
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 759
    Personally, I also find the crusade including Caelar herself as unconvicing and lacks that something I can't pinpoint what. Was it the dialogue, the voice acting, the overall plot or the minor details here and there (e.g. everything about Hephernan; the dream sequences seemed forced; even the cutscenes give off that "yikes" feeling)? I did not bother to give it much thought but I found it unappealing and uninspired.

    That is not to say that I did not find the game enjoyable though. The army battles are wonderful, and the music perfectly captured the BG feeling! The new NPCs introduced are great; particularly, I find Glint and Khliin as great additions (while Corwin, IMHO, was just decent even though I like the concept, and her fighting skills are useful). Some really good ideas were introduced as well, e.g. the goggles/glasses. The technical aspect is very much appreciated as well, especially the enhanced modding capabilities. Overall, it was a good attempt; an enjoyable game that I don't mind going through in an entire BG saga playthrough, but it is not very likely that I would play it again by itself. Again, it was a good game, with much room to be better.
    UnderstandMouseMagicsmeagolheart
  • Teo_liveTeo_live Member Posts: 187
    filcat88 said:

    ooh come on. Enough with this SJW.
    Let's talk about the game and the story, not about some excuse to troll.

    But that IS part of the story.

    I just finished some of my overdue gaming backlog playing titles such as mass effect, winter wolf titles etc. They have "SJW" content in them too however they do it much more subtlety and it feels more natural. Sometimes they even have alternative (ultra-conservative?) optional paths if you want to role play against the mainstream progressive way.

    Some "anti-SJW"/"gater-like" reviews were ridiculous true, but many were also quite fair and honest.
  • filcat88filcat88 Member Posts: 115
    Teo_live said:


    But that IS part of the story.

    I just finished some of my overdue gaming backlog playing titles such as mass effect, winter wolf titles etc. They have "SJW" content in them too however they do it much more subtlety and it feels more natural. Sometimes they even have alternative (ultra-conservative?) optional paths if you want to role play against the mainstream progressive way.

    Some "anti-SJW"/"gater-like" reviews were ridiculous true, but many were also quite fair and honest.

    OK, but where I fail to understand is why is such a big problem to have such charcters (the so called sjw....this pseudo-name doesn't mean anything by the way) in a game. And even if you don't like this inclusion, why the hate?
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,290
    Teo_live said:

    Some "anti-SJW"/"gater-like" reviews were ridiculous true, but many were also quite fair and honest.

    What a splendit sense of humour.
    ThacoBellSunder
  • Teo_liveTeo_live Member Posts: 187
    edited March 30
    O_Bruce said:

    Teo_live said:

    Some "anti-SJW"/"gater-like" reviews were ridiculous true, but many were also quite fair and honest.

    What a splendit sense of humour.
    Which part is funny? The fact that on steam/gog (or even a gater forum) there is an amazing feature called....
    scrolling down
    Do you really think out of hundreds of posts you will fail to find any sensible criticism? There is good and bad stuff on both sides if you can be bothered reading them...
    filcat88 said:

    (the so called sjw....this pseudo-name doesn't mean anything by the way)

    Eh? Since when do commonly used pejorative nicknames mean nothing? Just because they are not (yet) dictionary coined? :/

    As for the rest of what you said I agree the hate was over the top but it is to be expected if you start altering beloved canon characters. The media using SoD as a talking point in their pro/anti SJW rants (especially you polygon) didn't help either.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,290
    @Teo_live
    Once again, you demonstrate splendit sense of humour. Entertain me some more, please.

    Majority of steam reviews are of political nature, which makes the failure of a reviews by definition, no matter on which "side" they are on. There are outdated reviews taht had valid complains that are now fixed, so right nowe these aren't really valuable anyomre (thought they were before). They are reviews from purists fanboys who are complaing about features that can be easily turned off if one dislike them. And finally, there are few valuable and honest ones, authors of which are kind enough to state both strength and weakeness of the expansion.

    Afrer quick look, I have to mention one more thing. Should I consider the fact that positive and sensible reviews of this game are downvoted, while negative reviews are rated much higher just an accident? Because I doubt that. After further checking, my both positive reviews of BG:EE and BG2:EE are downvoted as well.

    Judging by how things look, should I even consider steam reviews to be worth a damn? No. Now, entertain me some more.
    filcat88ThacoBellPapa_Louronaldo
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,065
    Illustair said:

    Personally, I also find the crusade including Caelar herself as unconvicing and lacks that something I can't pinpoint what. Was it the dialogue, the voice acting, the overall plot or the minor details here and there (e.g. everything about Hephernan; the dream sequences seemed forced; even the cutscenes give off that "yikes" feeling)? I did not bother to give it much thought but I found it unappealing and uninspired.

    That is not to say that I did not find the game enjoyable though. The army battles are wonderful, and the music perfectly captured the BG feeling! The new NPCs introduced are great; particularly, I find Glint and Khliin as great additions (while Corwin, IMHO, was just decent even though I like the concept, and her fighting skills are useful). Some really good ideas were introduced as well, e.g. the goggles/glasses. The technical aspect is very much appreciated as well, especially the enhanced modding capabilities. Overall, it was a good attempt; an enjoyable game that I don't mind going through in an entire BG saga playthrough, but it is not very likely that I would play it again by itself. Again, it was a good game, with much room to be better.

    This a very fair review IMO.

    But I think some of the issues you mention are so frustrating because an afternoon spent reading various websites about BG (historical, pre SOD), would have pointed out things that should have been avoided. But instead, they occupy the main part of SOD.

    For instance, where did the developers even get the idea that a linear, little choice given BG game would be popular?
    Just where, when all comments/blogs/articles emphasise the RPG/freedom aspects that BG is famous for?
    That's it's strength, it's why it's still being played.

    I find it confusing the direction that was taken with SOD, not so much the what they did but the why.

  • Teo_liveTeo_live Member Posts: 187
    edited March 30
    O_Bruce said:

    @Teo_live
    Once again, you demonstrate splendit sense of humour. Entertain me some more, please. *snip*
    Judging by how things look, should I even consider steam reviews to be worth a damn? No. Now, entertain me some more.

    Guess the entertainment works both ways, your saltiness over reviews made me smile a bit. Thanks :)

    Joking Joking! Ok being serious now, so you personally consider steam reviews to be worth nothing? Great...
    However the problem is many gamers simply just don't think like that. Many people (myself included) use steam/gog/youtube/forums as a basis of determining if we will purchase the product or not. So even if you are right with reviews are unfair, outdated, hijacked by fanboys etc it still won't stop people's purse strings being majorly influenced by those reviews.

    TBH I think you expect too much from steam reviewers/ranters. They are just gamers, not trained objective apolitical journalists (though to be fair the actual journalists aren't exactly doing much better, I would trust a random steam user over theMarySue and Polygon any day of the week).

    Is pop-culture reviews a fair system? Probably not... but dude that is the nature of the beast.
  • filcat88filcat88 Member Posts: 115
    Papa_Lou said:

    Teo_live said:

    However the problem is many gamers simply just don't think like that. Many people (myself included) use steam/gog/youtube/forums as a basis of determining if we will purchase the product or not. So even if you are right with reviews are unfair, outdated, hijacked by fanboys etc it still won't stop people's purse strings being majorly influenced by those reviews.

    This is something I've been bringing up a lot lately here on the forums, since the announcement of PST:EE, and after seeing the insane hatred people have for Beamdog over seemingly nothing (or, at least, it's nothing anymore).

    You're totally right in saying reviews will sway a person into either buying or skipping a game. But what I think is completely unfair is if someone gets swayed into skipping a game, simply because other people are angry at Beamdog for whatever ungodly reason they come up with.

    PST:EE (or SoD, or anything else Beamdog may or may not come out with in the future) could end up being a particular gamer's favourite game ever, and I think it'd be a damn shame if they ended up skipping it because a bunch of people on Steam/GOG rated it 1/5 because they were still salty over something Beamdog included in SoD, and has since removed/fixed/updated.

    I understand not EVERY negative review is a salty troll typing away at a cheeto-stained keyboard, but the negative reviews with actual helpful tidbits of info tend to get swamped down in a sea of pointless hatred when it comes to Beamdog products.

    I think user reviews are a great thing when used properly. But when they get into the hands of a massive group of angry fanboys, it can easily become the downfall of something with a lot of potential, and that's quite a frightening thought.
    My own mind exactly.
    Papa_LouGrum
  • ShandyrShandyr Member Posts: 6,652
    ThacoBell said:

    I find it interesting that people complain that BG2 ruins it sense of urgency by allowing you to wander around with sidequests and backtracking to your hearts content. And we have another group that complain SoD follows through on the urgency of its plot by not letting you wander about. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

    Neither of these views are inherently wrong, its just an observation I found interesting.

    Well the underlying, general component is that some people generally simply want to be pissed. And they take any reason they can get.

    Do it one way, they'll complain. Do it the other way, they'll complain anyway.

    That doesn't mean that there isn't valid criticism of course. But there are also people who just love to complain for the sake of it.

    Learn to tell them apart. Work with the ones who offer valid, constructive criticism and simply ignore the others.
    ThacoBellDoodleroojackjack
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 4,260
    I hate railroading. The sidequesting in BG2 is narratively excused by giving an obstacle that the PC must overcome (get a lot of gold). That works. They even showed cutscenes of how things were playing out while you pootered around. It worked.

    I can't stand railroading. "You must go to a, b, c before meeting the boss at D games" are just not as fun. Maybe fine for one playthrough but not interesting to revisit.
    Doodleroobatoorjackjack
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,065
    @AndrewFoley

    Thank you so much for your detailed post, really decent of you. And you have answered my question.

    "That kept the player trapped on the southern side of the Winding Water until they reached Boareskyr and, IIRC, led to the "player joins the military expedition" concept replacing the original "player recruits their own army" plan (which I can only imagine would have been a technical nightmare if it had gone forward.)"

    This part seems to me to be where it got a bit lost. Or perhaps shows how lost you were by this point.

    BG from start to finish is unrealistic, in the same way as thousands of films/books/tv series ect. because for the story to work, realism has to be ignored.

    The lack of realism mainly being,
    "a small band of characters that the viewer/consumer identifies strongly with save the world" .

    It's quite extraordinary to me that there even was a "player recruits their own army" plan considering how far away that is from what makes BG (and Star Wars and all the others) work.

    smeagolheart
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 4,880
    Armies. I would have loved more armies in ToB. And raising one! I always felt the warring Bhaalspawns could have used more war and big battles. I have no idea, but I think they were trying to do a war of the Bhaalspawns thing with SoD.
    ThacoBell
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 4,794
    ThacoBell said:

    I find it interesting that people complain that BG2 ruins it sense of urgency by allowing you to wander around with sidequests and backtracking to your hearts content. And we have another group that complain SoD follows through on the urgency of its plot by not letting you wander about. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

    Neither of these views are inherently wrong, its just an observation I found interesting.

    Shandyr said:

    ThacoBell said:

    I find it interesting that people complain that BG2 ruins it sense of urgency by allowing you to wander around with sidequests and backtracking to your hearts content. And we have another group that complain SoD follows through on the urgency of its plot by not letting you wander about. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

    Neither of these views are inherently wrong, its just an observation I found interesting.

    Well the underlying, general component is that some people generally simply want to be pissed. And they take any reason they can get.

    Do it one way, they'll complain. Do it the other way, they'll complain anyway.

    That doesn't mean that there isn't valid criticism of course. But there are also people who just love to complain for the sake of it.

    Learn to tell them apart. Work with the ones who offer valid, constructive criticism and simply ignore the others.
    @ThacoBell @Shandyr Actually, the issue is that narrative design needs to support the game play experience you want to give. I'm BG2 the developers wanted to give freedom but the narrative does not support this well. This is in contrast to BG1 which many people like better. In Sod they gave up a gameplay aspect to support the narrative which is a valid point. However based on their experience in BG1-2 people were not expecting to give up their freedom, resulting in dissatisfaction. As @AndrewFoley noted perhaps they slightly lost sight of the game they wanted to make in favour of a certain narrative they wanted to tell. In game design (IMO) this is a huge mistake.
    ShandyrKuronaThacoBellUnderstandMouseMagic
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