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How good is an Archer kit late game?

2

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,062
    Beholders especially I found are easy victims to an Archer, even without GDB. Just distract them with bait and pop those bladderbags like it's nothing.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,308
    Oh! I played an archer before v2.0 so I totally forgot about the enchanted weapon spell. Well, with the spell being a buff type like now, archers should be even more powerful.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,226
    SomeSort said:


    Gesen can also hit the Ravager and wouldn't require any additional proficiency point investment, (assuming you went Shortbows for Tuigan).

    Also, Greater Deathblow is amazing with an Archer since they don't have to walk between targets. When facing enemies vulnerable to it, (including both Beholders and Mind Flayers, iirc), he can wipe out up to 10 a round.

    I didn't think about that because the last time I faced the Ravager was in the Black Pits 2 where Gesen wasn't available. Even without that, I'd assumed the Ravager was immune to electricity. If that's not the case, then you could do something with that, yeah.
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 772

    SomeSort said:


    Gesen can also hit the Ravager and wouldn't require any additional proficiency point investment, (assuming you went Shortbows for Tuigan).

    Also, Greater Deathblow is amazing with an Archer since they don't have to walk between targets. When facing enemies vulnerable to it, (including both Beholders and Mind Flayers, iirc), he can wipe out up to 10 a round.

    I didn't think about that because the last time I faced the Ravager was in the Black Pits 2 where Gesen wasn't available. Even without that, I'd assumed the Ravager was immune to electricity. If that's not the case, then you could do something with that, yeah.
    Yep, the Ravager is immune to electricity. Gesen deals 2 piercing damage in addition to the 1d8 electrical damage and the Ravager also has 75% resistance to piercing so it kind of sucks. Same with the Firetooth crossbow, it's also immune to fire.

    If you aren't playing Ascension, the Ravager is pretty much the worst enemy possible for an archer. Otherwise they rock even in the very hack'n'slash ToB.
    thespace
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Kurona said:

    Yep, the Ravager is immune to electricity. Gesen deals 2 piercing damage in addition to the 1d8 electrical damage and the Ravager also has 75% resistance to piercing so it kind of sucks. Same with the Firetooth crossbow, it's also immune to fire.

    If you aren't playing Ascension, the Ravager is pretty much the worst enemy possible for an archer. Otherwise they rock even in the very hack'n'slash ToB.

    Isn't the Ravager 75% resistant to all forms of weapon damage? So that's more a "physical attackers" problem than an "archers" problem. And unlike most other physical attackers, Archers can still contribute beyond just their damage thanks to Called Shot.

    Actually, now that I think of it, is Ravager vulnerable to Ray of Enfeeblement? Because if so, Strength Draining him via called shot would be a particularly hilarious way to take him down.
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 772
    edited March 10
    SomeSort said:

    Kurona said:

    Yep, the Ravager is immune to electricity. Gesen deals 2 piercing damage in addition to the 1d8 electrical damage and the Ravager also has 75% resistance to piercing so it kind of sucks. Same with the Firetooth crossbow, it's also immune to fire.

    If you aren't playing Ascension, the Ravager is pretty much the worst enemy possible for an archer. Otherwise they rock even in the very hack'n'slash ToB.

    Isn't the Ravager 75% resistant to all forms of weapon damage? So that's more a "physical attackers" problem than an "archers" problem. And unlike most other physical attackers, Archers can still contribute beyond just their damage thanks to Called Shot.

    Actually, now that I think of it, is Ravager vulnerable to Ray of Enfeeblement? Because if so, Strength Draining him via called shot would be a particularly hilarious way to take him down.
    Yes it's 75% resistance to all weapon types, but since it can only be hurt by +4 weapons or above Archers are hurt a lot more than melee fighters. And no you can cast Ray of Enfeeblement on it even if you lower its magic resistance because it's immune to spells under level 3. Pretty sure it's outright immune to ability score drain too.

    Honestly the Ravager wouldn't be out of place in Dynasty Warriors -- he's meant to be hit a lot with melee weapons, as boring as it is. Unless you're a Thief, in which case lol traps. Fortunately Archers are still competent with melee weapons so even a solo can beat him without too much trouble.
    SomeSort
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,062
    Called Shot is one of THE reasons to play Archers at endgame btw. It's ridiculously powerful against almost anything.
    tbone1SomeSortsemiticgodJuliusBorisov
  • CloutierCloutier Member Posts: 188
    What's an archer's limit for slings? proficiency, specialization, or grand mastery?
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Cloutier said:

    What's an archer's limit for slings? proficiency, specialization, or grand mastery?

    Two pips. Absent mods, the only classes able to achieve grandmastery in slings are vanilla fighters and Wizard Slayers. Wizard Slayers have the glove restriction working against them, which means Vanilla Fighters and their various dual-classes, (or a Wizard Slayer > Thief), are the best slingers around.

    The Archer kit is still totally credible with slings, though; the loss of 0.5 APR due to no grandmastery hurts their sustained damage output, but no Slinger causes more havoc while under the effects of Whirlwind Attack.
  • ArchGhostArchGhost Member Posts: 10
    SomeSort said:

    Archer is one of the most solid Kits, as other explained enough by now Shortbows or Crossbow to the max for the infinite +4/5 Ammo and 2 points in Club or Mace paired with a shield for that rare few enemy's in between who are Immune to piercing damage.

    ...

    I do think the "long bows can't hit enemies that require +4 weapons" thing is kind of a red herring. As far as I know, the only enemies that can't be hit by +3 weapons are Demiliches (there's two of these in the entire game, both optional, only one of which even gives you anything worth owning), Demogorgon (optional, and role players are generally discouraged from fighting him), the Demon Lord in Ust Natha (optional, and which almost nobody fights, anyway), and the Ravager. Plus mages who cast Improved Mantle, (but not Mages who cast Mantle, Protection from Magical Weapons, or Absolute Immunity. And these protections can all be dispelled, anyway.)

    And Mariliths require +4, which are kind of a chore to fight in melee (cast Stoneskin+PfMW, have posioning weapons, -13AC). They aren't really a problem for those that go to Watcher's Keep in ToB, but before then, they're mighty annoying especially in the Demogorgon fight.


    Archers are like the freakish offspring of the Kensai and Monk. Lots of late game power and a little bit more eclectic ability like a monk, but not useless since they can benefit heavily from the combination of these boni with the magical enhancements of the strongest items in the game like a Kensai. And Grandmastery.

    Their DPS is insane once you find a good bow because of their per level bonus gets multiplied across their APR, just like a Kensai, making the lowish starting damage per shot a non-issue. Incredible to-hit from combining launcher+ammo boni+dex bonus also means you'll land more of it, only high STR Kensai really compare.

    Getting Tansheron's ASAP is a favorite of mine because of infinite ammo and it counts as +3, which is good for almost anything in SoA but pointedly for safely taking down Iron Golems early in the game (which you could also do with a long +3 two hander or Azuredge/Dwarven Thrower). Even if you don't like that, you can use Strong Arm or Heartseeker for longbows, or Light Crossbow of Speed/Giant Hair crossbow. If you zip over to Watcher's Keep early, you can pick up Firetooth, an infinite arrow quiver or just snag the generous amounts of free +3 arrows/bolts for your non-infinite bows. I'm not a big fan of Tuigan since you have to feed it high enchantment ammo to stay relevant, but this is a good solution to that problem and it's definitely great for the APR boost. In any case, a straight archer will be able to max (5 star) two of the ranged bow weapons in a normal playthrough (10 stars total by level 18), and at max level could even do all three (they get a total of 15 proficiency points by lvl 33)

    Probably the best part? They do all of this at range (duh), and thus both safely as well as inescapable for the enemy. High APR archers can shred mages stoneskins/mirror images through the brute force of sheer number of attacks, or just use elemental ammo or even dispelling arrows, and don't miss often with their strong thaco, making them natural counter to any spellcaster. Even the next most comparable option, a throwing weapon Kensai, doesn't have as much range on its weapons (even if it is a wee bit more powerful) and doesn't have Called Shot's tertiary applications

    In terms of sheer character power, Kensai wins out simply because it can dual class and Kai tends to improve output more, but Archer is head and shoulders above most any other warrior kit that doesn't use supplemental magic (lol @ monk...at least they have nice MR), and extremely powerful in its niche as a damage dealer.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,062
    ArchGhost said:

    In terms of sheer character power, Kensai wins out simply because it can dual class and Kai tends to improve output more

    Is that not a bid paradoxical, since the biggest draw of Kensai is the stacking bonuses - which you give up when dualing. Also, the large amount of static modifiers that go into their total damage (e.g. kit and STR) somewhat devalues Kai, as the thrown weapons tend to have very small damage ranges. At 1d4 Kai only adds 1.5 damage on average.

    Of course, I'm not saying that Kensai is bad, or that dualing isn't preferable for reasons other than damage. It's just that when dualing a Kensai, I'm not sure it isn't better to just go melee instead. The dualed class does after all tend to mitigate or outright negate the Kensai disadvantage of no armor.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    ArchGhost said:

    Archers are like the freakish offspring of the Kensai and Monk. Lots of late game power and a little bit more eclectic ability like a monk, but not useless since they can benefit heavily from the combination of these boni with the magical enhancements of the strongest items in the game like a Kensai. And Grandmastery.

    Their DPS is insane once you find a good bow because of their per level bonus gets multiplied across their APR, just like a Kensai, making the lowish starting damage per shot a non-issue. Incredible to-hit from combining launcher+ammo boni+dex bonus also means you'll land more of it, only high STR Kensai really compare.

    Getting Tansheron's ASAP is a favorite of mine because of infinite ammo and it counts as +3, which is good for almost anything in SoA but pointedly for safely taking down Iron Golems early in the game (which you could also do with a long +3 two hander or Azuredge/Dwarven Thrower). Even if you don't like that, you can use Strong Arm or Heartseeker for longbows, or Light Crossbow of Speed/Giant Hair crossbow. If you zip over to Watcher's Keep early, you can pick up Firetooth, an infinite arrow quiver or just snag the generous amounts of free +3 arrows/bolts for your non-infinite bows. I'm not a big fan of Tuigan since you have to feed it high enchantment ammo to stay relevant, but this is a good solution to that problem and it's definitely great for the APR boost. In any case, a straight archer will be able to max (5 star) two of the ranged bow weapons in a normal playthrough (10 stars total by level 18), and at max level could even do all three (they get a total of 15 proficiency points by lvl 33)

    Probably the best part? They do all of this at range (duh), and thus both safely as well as inescapable for the enemy. High APR archers can shred mages stoneskins/mirror images through the brute force of sheer number of attacks, or just use elemental ammo or even dispelling arrows, and don't miss often with their strong thaco, making them natural counter to any spellcaster. Even the next most comparable option, a throwing weapon Kensai, doesn't have as much range on its weapons (even if it is a wee bit more powerful) and doesn't have Called Shot's tertiary applications

    In terms of sheer character power, Kensai wins out simply because it can dual class and Kai tends to improve output more, but Archer is head and shoulders above most any other warrior kit that doesn't use supplemental magic (lol @ monk...at least they have nice MR), and extremely powerful in its niche as a damage dealer.

    Using Tansheron's over Tuigan's results in a 25% decrease in damage output, (33% if you're also using Arrows of Acid with Tuigan's). Until you assemble Gesen's, you really should be using Tuigan's against anything that doesn't strictly require a higher enchantment to hit. After that, Gesen's (with ammo) and Tuigan's will be about a wash, and Gesen's (without ammo) will lag behind, (but be able to hit as a +4 weapon). I gave examples of the kind of damage output you can expect from various ranged setups in this thread.

    I think you also overstate the Archer's total damage potential. At level cap, the Archer gets +9 damage per attack and can attack 5 times per round with Tuigan's, or 4.5 times per round with Gesen's and the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. Any plain-jane fighter on the block with the Girdle of Frost Giant Strength gets +9 damage per attack, and by equipping Belm in their off-hand can attack 5 times per round, or 4.5 times per round with any other offhand weapon and the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. And they don't need to be at the level cap to do it; level 13 will suffice, (reached at 1.25m XP). With Crom Faeyr, that's +14 per attack, well above anything the archer can achieve.

    (Yes, archers can equip slings to stack the kit bonus *and* the strength bonus. However, an archer with a sling caps out at 3 attacks per round, which means they deal even less damage than their shortbow counterparts unless under the effects of Whirlwind Attack.)

    Really, there's nothing special about an Archer's damage output by mid-SoA. They'll lag any competent dual-wielder by about 33% by ToB, and will trail a melee Kensai by almost 50%. That's not even counting secondary weapon effects for the melee character like Vorpal hits, slows target, etc. By that point in the game, the Archer is relegated to secondary damage dealer / mage disrupter / on-demand debuffer. Which is still a very useful role, but they're not going to remain the kill-hogging all-stars they were in BG1.
    Arctodusbiffyclanger
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 379
    In late game any fighter is uber powerful in straight fight with the ravager and whirlwind.
  • Necroscope86Necroscope86 Member Posts: 79
    As many have already said - BG1 Archer is insane. Even with SCS + Insane difficulty etc my Archer was accounting for 60% of all kills for the entire game (I'm including in this SOD also). However now I've reached BG2 (again insane difficulty and pretty much all SCS tweaks bar the random lich's and mages only cast prebuffs if in sight) it's becoming much more equal in terms of damage. Bear in mind my Archer is GM with longbow's so I can't use tuigans yet but in time. ..
    ThacoBell
  • VitharVithar Member Posts: 67
    edited April 16

    Could one play all the way from BG1 to ToB with an Archer kit and be doing ok with it?

    I've read lots of bull during the past several years and tons of mislead information people giving to others about the ''Archer'' Kit.

    I'm going to give you some tips , suggestions and clear some things (also i haven't read all the comments but i'm nearly 100% sure about the rouble rouble rouble Short Bows for BG2).

    The game can be completed with every class / kit as main character on any difficulty and even if you are not the top contributor to the party - you will still do enough.

    About Bows - it doesn't matter what bows you take.
    Just chose your Short or Long style(5 points) and put rest of the proficiency points in melee weapons (i suggest you blunt ones). You get 2x Two - Weapon Style Slots and can put ''1'' in weapons only.

    Only thing you should be concerned is/are the Arrows - if you go for Longbow , don't use the strong ones for typical normal encounters (save them for big bosses and mostly for ToB).

    Stuff like this - http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Arrow_of_Piercing

    As for the normal mobs i mentioned above - http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Quiver_of_Plenty

    If you cannot hit some stuff - remember that there are ''adds'' that you can focus etc.


    I suggest you to google the BG/SoD/BG2/Tob items and see what types of Bow suites you (or X-bow , but here i have no clue about them).

    Also i suggest your to avoid addons and stuff - it just kills the original purpose of stuff.
  • retrosicretrosic Member Posts: 6
    It seems to me like the change to the Enchanted Weapon spell and either going for slings/melee as a backup (plus conserving the more powerful arrows for special encounters) makes longbow a viable choice throughout the whole series, not just simply BG1-SoA, right?

    I'm thinking about playing an archer next but don't really want to be shoehorned into shortbows and I've already done crossbows with a different character.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,758
    Unless you REALLY care about powergaming, longbows are perfectly viable through the whole trilogy.
    GreenWarlocksemiticgod
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    retrosic said:

    It seems to me like the change to the Enchanted Weapon spell and either going for slings/melee as a backup (plus conserving the more powerful arrows for special encounters) makes longbow a viable choice throughout the whole series, not just simply BG1-SoA, right?

    I'm thinking about playing an archer next but don't really want to be shoehorned into shortbows and I've already done crossbows with a different character.

    It's totally viable, you'll just sacrifice about 15% of damage output compared to shortbows or crossbows.
  • retrosicretrosic Member Posts: 6
    Ah well, I certainly can live with that. I'm not into min/max powergaming, I just don't want my PC to feel terribly obsolete down the line. Thanks guys.
    BlackravenThacoBell
  • VitharVithar Member Posts: 67
    retrosic said:

    Ah well, I certainly can live with that. I'm not into min/max powergaming, I just don't want my PC to feel terribly obsolete down the line. Thanks guys.

    Just read my comment above and create your Archer without giving a single f**k ... have fun.
  • retrosicretrosic Member Posts: 6
    Thanks Vithar, I actually have. Your comment was very detailed. Just wanted to get some more opinions on the matter.

    I think I'll go for max pips in longbow, ++ slings and the rest into various melee weapons. Sounds like a plan?
    Vithar
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    retrosic said:

    Ah well, I certainly can live with that. I'm not into min/max powergaming, I just don't want my PC to feel terribly obsolete down the line. Thanks guys.

    Nah, Archer never becomes obsolete. Shortbow archer, Longbow archer, Crossbow archer, by mid-ToB their damage is lagging the main meleers, anyway. They're mostly supplemental damage / defense stripping / focused fire, plus their amazing Called Shot debuff that can destroy an enemy's saving throws and strength score in a huge hurry.
  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 422
    Provided you have a decent damage sponge in front of him, Archer is hell on wheels for throughout the game. Imp.Haste + Called Shot - broken.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,062
    retrosic said:

    I think I'll go for max pips in longbow, ++ slings and the rest into various melee weapons. Sounds like a plan?

    While I am admittedly as powergamer as they come, I really urge everyone to reflect on why they think they need to use so many different weapon types. Not that there is anything wrong with playing the way you prefer, of course, I'd just invite thinking about WHY you think you prefer it a certain way. Personally, I just don't see much value in spreading proficiency points wide, but perhaps that's just all the meta-knowledge talking.
  • VitharVithar Member Posts: 67

    retrosic said:

    I think I'll go for max pips in longbow, ++ slings and the rest into various melee weapons. Sounds like a plan?

    While I am admittedly as powergamer as they come, I really urge everyone to reflect on why they think they need to use so many different weapon types. Not that there is anything wrong with playing the way you prefer, of course, I'd just invite thinking about WHY you think you prefer it a certain way. Personally, I just don't see much value in spreading proficiency points wide, but perhaps that's just all the meta-knowledge talking.
    Because as it's said above and as people could also check - the Archer can put only ''1'' point in weapons and after you max your Bow Mastery what are you going to do with your Points?
    Yes - you take Blunt Weapons for mastery vs Creatures you don't do anything with bow vs them or if you are fanatical - you spend another 5 points in different Bow or Xbow Mastery.

    With all due respect - don't mislead people with the ''powergamer'' excuse , it's not Starcraft:Brood War on Korean level where you need the 0.000001 from a second to be accurate.

    It's a game that can be completed by billions of ways on the highest difficulty without a problem.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,062
    Vithar said:

    With all due respect - don't mislead people with the ''powergamer'' excuse , it's not Starcraft:Brood War on Korean level where you need the 0.000001 from a second to be accurate.

    It's a game that can be completed by billions of ways on the highest difficulty without a problem.

    With all due respect, it not being a competitive esport does not mean you're not allowed to enjoy min/maxing to the extreme. I don't want other people to do that, I just try and share some wisdom to help others discover things they might end up liking but perhaps would not otherwise have considered.

    As for the issue at hand, you could very well simply ask: why NOT put things into another box/xbow? It's likely to be all that much more useful overall than that random axe skill you use once or twice if at all. What will * in axes, swords, and spears really DO for an Archer? What situation is there where having such skill is useful, compared to those points being in another (read: better at at that point) bow/xbow weapon?

    But again - I am not saying YOU MUST DO THIS OMG OR YOU SUCK. I'm just saying, think what you believe you will actually gain out of spreading wide. When you will actually use it. And whether or not you wouldn't actually prefer it be some other ranged weapon.
    semiticgod
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