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How good is an Archer kit late game?

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Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 3,747
    Beholders especially I found are easy victims to an Archer, even without GDB. Just distract them with bait and pop those bladderbags like it's nothing.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,250
    Oh! I played an archer before v2.0 so I totally forgot about the enchanted weapon spell. Well, with the spell being a buff type like now, archers should be even more powerful.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,102
    SomeSort said:


    Gesen can also hit the Ravager and wouldn't require any additional proficiency point investment, (assuming you went Shortbows for Tuigan).

    Also, Greater Deathblow is amazing with an Archer since they don't have to walk between targets. When facing enemies vulnerable to it, (including both Beholders and Mind Flayers, iirc), he can wipe out up to 10 a round.

    I didn't think about that because the last time I faced the Ravager was in the Black Pits 2 where Gesen wasn't available. Even without that, I'd assumed the Ravager was immune to electricity. If that's not the case, then you could do something with that, yeah.
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 594

    SomeSort said:


    Gesen can also hit the Ravager and wouldn't require any additional proficiency point investment, (assuming you went Shortbows for Tuigan).

    Also, Greater Deathblow is amazing with an Archer since they don't have to walk between targets. When facing enemies vulnerable to it, (including both Beholders and Mind Flayers, iirc), he can wipe out up to 10 a round.

    I didn't think about that because the last time I faced the Ravager was in the Black Pits 2 where Gesen wasn't available. Even without that, I'd assumed the Ravager was immune to electricity. If that's not the case, then you could do something with that, yeah.
    Yep, the Ravager is immune to electricity. Gesen deals 2 piercing damage in addition to the 1d8 electrical damage and the Ravager also has 75% resistance to piercing so it kind of sucks. Same with the Firetooth crossbow, it's also immune to fire.

    If you aren't playing Ascension, the Ravager is pretty much the worst enemy possible for an archer. Otherwise they rock even in the very hack'n'slash ToB.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 70
    Kurona said:

    Yep, the Ravager is immune to electricity. Gesen deals 2 piercing damage in addition to the 1d8 electrical damage and the Ravager also has 75% resistance to piercing so it kind of sucks. Same with the Firetooth crossbow, it's also immune to fire.

    If you aren't playing Ascension, the Ravager is pretty much the worst enemy possible for an archer. Otherwise they rock even in the very hack'n'slash ToB.

    Isn't the Ravager 75% resistant to all forms of weapon damage? So that's more a "physical attackers" problem than an "archers" problem. And unlike most other physical attackers, Archers can still contribute beyond just their damage thanks to Called Shot.

    Actually, now that I think of it, is Ravager vulnerable to Ray of Enfeeblement? Because if so, Strength Draining him via called shot would be a particularly hilarious way to take him down.
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 594
    edited March 10
    SomeSort said:

    Kurona said:

    Yep, the Ravager is immune to electricity. Gesen deals 2 piercing damage in addition to the 1d8 electrical damage and the Ravager also has 75% resistance to piercing so it kind of sucks. Same with the Firetooth crossbow, it's also immune to fire.

    If you aren't playing Ascension, the Ravager is pretty much the worst enemy possible for an archer. Otherwise they rock even in the very hack'n'slash ToB.

    Isn't the Ravager 75% resistant to all forms of weapon damage? So that's more a "physical attackers" problem than an "archers" problem. And unlike most other physical attackers, Archers can still contribute beyond just their damage thanks to Called Shot.

    Actually, now that I think of it, is Ravager vulnerable to Ray of Enfeeblement? Because if so, Strength Draining him via called shot would be a particularly hilarious way to take him down.
    Yes it's 75% resistance to all weapon types, but since it can only be hurt by +4 weapons or above Archers are hurt a lot more than melee fighters. And no you can cast Ray of Enfeeblement on it even if you lower its magic resistance because it's immune to spells under level 3. Pretty sure it's outright immune to ability score drain too.

    Honestly the Ravager wouldn't be out of place in Dynasty Warriors -- he's meant to be hit a lot with melee weapons, as boring as it is. Unless you're a Thief, in which case lol traps. Fortunately Archers are still competent with melee weapons so even a solo can beat him without too much trouble.
    SomeSort
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 3,747
    Called Shot is one of THE reasons to play Archers at endgame btw. It's ridiculously powerful against almost anything.
    tbone1SomeSortsemiticgodJuliusBorisov
  • CloutierCloutier Member Posts: 162
    What's an archer's limit for slings? proficiency, specialization, or grand mastery?
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 70
    Cloutier said:

    What's an archer's limit for slings? proficiency, specialization, or grand mastery?

    Two pips. Absent mods, the only classes able to achieve grandmastery in slings are vanilla fighters and Wizard Slayers. Wizard Slayers have the glove restriction working against them, which means Vanilla Fighters and their various dual-classes, (or a Wizard Slayer > Thief), are the best slingers around.

    The Archer kit is still totally credible with slings, though; the loss of 0.5 APR due to no grandmastery hurts their sustained damage output, but no Slinger causes more havoc while under the effects of Whirlwind Attack.
  • ArchGhostArchGhost Member Posts: 10
    SomeSort said:

    Archer is one of the most solid Kits, as other explained enough by now Shortbows or Crossbow to the max for the infinite +4/5 Ammo and 2 points in Club or Mace paired with a shield for that rare few enemy's in between who are Immune to piercing damage.

    ...

    I do think the "long bows can't hit enemies that require +4 weapons" thing is kind of a red herring. As far as I know, the only enemies that can't be hit by +3 weapons are Demiliches (there's two of these in the entire game, both optional, only one of which even gives you anything worth owning), Demogorgon (optional, and role players are generally discouraged from fighting him), the Demon Lord in Ust Natha (optional, and which almost nobody fights, anyway), and the Ravager. Plus mages who cast Improved Mantle, (but not Mages who cast Mantle, Protection from Magical Weapons, or Absolute Immunity. And these protections can all be dispelled, anyway.)

    And Mariliths require +4, which are kind of a chore to fight in melee (cast Stoneskin+PfMW, have posioning weapons, -13AC). They aren't really a problem for those that go to Watcher's Keep in ToB, but before then, they're mighty annoying especially in the Demogorgon fight.


    Archers are like the freakish offspring of the Kensai and Monk. Lots of late game power and a little bit more eclectic ability like a monk, but not useless since they can benefit heavily from the combination of these boni with the magical enhancements of the strongest items in the game like a Kensai. And Grandmastery.

    Their DPS is insane once you find a good bow because of their per level bonus gets multiplied across their APR, just like a Kensai, making the lowish starting damage per shot a non-issue. Incredible to-hit from combining launcher+ammo boni+dex bonus also means you'll land more of it, only high STR Kensai really compare.

    Getting Tansheron's ASAP is a favorite of mine because of infinite ammo and it counts as +3, which is good for almost anything in SoA but pointedly for safely taking down Iron Golems early in the game (which you could also do with a long +3 two hander or Azuredge/Dwarven Thrower). Even if you don't like that, you can use Strong Arm or Heartseeker for longbows, or Light Crossbow of Speed/Giant Hair crossbow. If you zip over to Watcher's Keep early, you can pick up Firetooth, an infinite arrow quiver or just snag the generous amounts of free +3 arrows/bolts for your non-infinite bows. I'm not a big fan of Tuigan since you have to feed it high enchantment ammo to stay relevant, but this is a good solution to that problem and it's definitely great for the APR boost. In any case, a straight archer will be able to max (5 star) two of the ranged bow weapons in a normal playthrough (10 stars total by level 18), and at max level could even do all three (they get a total of 15 proficiency points by lvl 33)

    Probably the best part? They do all of this at range (duh), and thus both safely as well as inescapable for the enemy. High APR archers can shred mages stoneskins/mirror images through the brute force of sheer number of attacks, or just use elemental ammo or even dispelling arrows, and don't miss often with their strong thaco, making them natural counter to any spellcaster. Even the next most comparable option, a throwing weapon Kensai, doesn't have as much range on its weapons (even if it is a wee bit more powerful) and doesn't have Called Shot's tertiary applications

    In terms of sheer character power, Kensai wins out simply because it can dual class and Kai tends to improve output more, but Archer is head and shoulders above most any other warrior kit that doesn't use supplemental magic (lol @ monk...at least they have nice MR), and extremely powerful in its niche as a damage dealer.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 3,747
    ArchGhost said:

    In terms of sheer character power, Kensai wins out simply because it can dual class and Kai tends to improve output more

    Is that not a bid paradoxical, since the biggest draw of Kensai is the stacking bonuses - which you give up when dualing. Also, the large amount of static modifiers that go into their total damage (e.g. kit and STR) somewhat devalues Kai, as the thrown weapons tend to have very small damage ranges. At 1d4 Kai only adds 1.5 damage on average.

    Of course, I'm not saying that Kensai is bad, or that dualing isn't preferable for reasons other than damage. It's just that when dualing a Kensai, I'm not sure it isn't better to just go melee instead. The dualed class does after all tend to mitigate or outright negate the Kensai disadvantage of no armor.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 70
    ArchGhost said:

    Archers are like the freakish offspring of the Kensai and Monk. Lots of late game power and a little bit more eclectic ability like a monk, but not useless since they can benefit heavily from the combination of these boni with the magical enhancements of the strongest items in the game like a Kensai. And Grandmastery.

    Their DPS is insane once you find a good bow because of their per level bonus gets multiplied across their APR, just like a Kensai, making the lowish starting damage per shot a non-issue. Incredible to-hit from combining launcher+ammo boni+dex bonus also means you'll land more of it, only high STR Kensai really compare.

    Getting Tansheron's ASAP is a favorite of mine because of infinite ammo and it counts as +3, which is good for almost anything in SoA but pointedly for safely taking down Iron Golems early in the game (which you could also do with a long +3 two hander or Azuredge/Dwarven Thrower). Even if you don't like that, you can use Strong Arm or Heartseeker for longbows, or Light Crossbow of Speed/Giant Hair crossbow. If you zip over to Watcher's Keep early, you can pick up Firetooth, an infinite arrow quiver or just snag the generous amounts of free +3 arrows/bolts for your non-infinite bows. I'm not a big fan of Tuigan since you have to feed it high enchantment ammo to stay relevant, but this is a good solution to that problem and it's definitely great for the APR boost. In any case, a straight archer will be able to max (5 star) two of the ranged bow weapons in a normal playthrough (10 stars total by level 18), and at max level could even do all three (they get a total of 15 proficiency points by lvl 33)

    Probably the best part? They do all of this at range (duh), and thus both safely as well as inescapable for the enemy. High APR archers can shred mages stoneskins/mirror images through the brute force of sheer number of attacks, or just use elemental ammo or even dispelling arrows, and don't miss often with their strong thaco, making them natural counter to any spellcaster. Even the next most comparable option, a throwing weapon Kensai, doesn't have as much range on its weapons (even if it is a wee bit more powerful) and doesn't have Called Shot's tertiary applications

    In terms of sheer character power, Kensai wins out simply because it can dual class and Kai tends to improve output more, but Archer is head and shoulders above most any other warrior kit that doesn't use supplemental magic (lol @ monk...at least they have nice MR), and extremely powerful in its niche as a damage dealer.

    Using Tansheron's over Tuigan's results in a 25% decrease in damage output, (33% if you're also using Arrows of Acid with Tuigan's). Until you assemble Gesen's, you really should be using Tuigan's against anything that doesn't strictly require a higher enchantment to hit. After that, Gesen's (with ammo) and Tuigan's will be about a wash, and Gesen's (without ammo) will lag behind, (but be able to hit as a +4 weapon). I gave examples of the kind of damage output you can expect from various ranged setups in this thread.

    I think you also overstate the Archer's total damage potential. At level cap, the Archer gets +9 damage per attack and can attack 5 times per round with Tuigan's, or 4.5 times per round with Gesen's and the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. Any plain-jane fighter on the block with the Girdle of Frost Giant Strength gets +9 damage per attack, and by equipping Belm in their off-hand can attack 5 times per round, or 4.5 times per round with any other offhand weapon and the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. And they don't need to be at the level cap to do it; level 13 will suffice, (reached at 1.25m XP). With Crom Faeyr, that's +14 per attack, well above anything the archer can achieve.

    (Yes, archers can equip slings to stack the kit bonus *and* the strength bonus. However, an archer with a sling caps out at 3 attacks per round, which means they deal even less damage than their shortbow counterparts unless under the effects of Whirlwind Attack.)

    Really, there's nothing special about an Archer's damage output by mid-SoA. They'll lag any competent dual-wielder by about 33% by ToB, and will trail a melee Kensai by almost 50%. That's not even counting secondary weapon effects for the melee character like Vorpal hits, slows target, etc. By that point in the game, the Archer is relegated to secondary damage dealer / mage disrupter / on-demand debuffer. Which is still a very useful role, but they're not going to remain the kill-hogging all-stars they were in BG1.
    Arctodus
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 338
    In late game any fighter is uber powerful in straight fight with the ravager and whirlwind.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,102
    edited March 15
    The Archer's power isn't just in DPS, but in its ability to do it at range and escape using Haste/Boots of Speed/Hide in Shadows, which gives them better survivability in practice than any melee fighter who needs to get stuck in to get things done. You can kite enemies into the grave right up to Melissan, and if you somehow get licked anyways, you can make tracks for long enough to chug potions and get back in there. That flexibility is what makes them truly fearsome - played well, they're nearly unkillable.
    Post edited by Abi_Dalzim on
    ThacoBellArctodusgeorgelappiesBalrog99
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