I seem to recall that Archers can get Grand Mastery in ranged weapons as well, but not specialise in other weapons. The Fighter is by far the more rounded character, but the Archer is pretty much the king of specialisation there.
As Pantalion says, the archer is definitely better at archery. On top of grandmastery they get bonuses to hit and damage with ranged weapons, and the called shot ability.
An Elf Archer would be the best archer (additional +1 THAC0 with bows and additional stealth bonus (or do only thieves benefit from the elf stealth bonus?), though they only get the bow bonus for short and longbows, not crossbows
Elf archers get a double bonus from their racial benefit to bows, and from their 19 dexterity. 19 dex gives an aditional +1 thaco to ranged damage, and elves have a racial +1 bonus as well.
This one isn't even close because of the Archer Kit. Both get Grand Mastery at the same point, but the damage and to hit bonuses for the archer are cumulative and crazy-good. Also, the fighter gets none of the special attacks that come for the archer, and those make the comparison downright unfair.
I just tested out a high level archer with nothing but greater whirlwind attack HLAs. That thing is bloody nasty!
I dont know if you keep your draw upon holy might power that late in the game, but I had it on my test archer and it gave him 25 dex, plus called shot, plus GWW = pew pew pew pew pew pew 10 arrows per round with archer bonuses and 25 dexterity.
Just wondering if anyone else has played an archer, for HLAs is it worth taking anything other than GWW on each level up?
The critical attack is also worthwhile. An improved haste on an archer means 10 attacks per round for the duration of the improved haste. The critical attack HLA means you automatically hit on all 10 hits and obviously increases damages for any opponent that is vulnerable. GWW does nothing for an improved hasted archer. Damage reduction and perhaps magic resistance could be useful as well.
You'd be safer against a M-60, +5 than a hasted archer.
I had a thought yesterday; it seems to me that there really is no reason to play anything that isn't a kit, at least as far as fighters and rangers go.
You'd be safer against a M-60, +5 than a hasted archer.
I had a thought yesterday; it seems to me that there really is no reason to play anything that isn't a kit, at least as far as fighters and rangers go.
Thief is the only class I can see that there is incentive to be pure class.
@Tanthalas - I didn't realize they could wear heavy armor until Minsc got away with it. P&P rules limit ranger armor. Besides, Minsc isn't really a ranger - he's delusional after the head wound. He is a berserker!
You'd be safer against a M-60, +5 than a hasted archer.
I had a thought yesterday; it seems to me that there really is no reason to play anything that isn't a kit, at least as far as fighters and rangers go.
Thief is the only class I can see that there is incentive to be pure class.
For a pure thief I'd rather be an Assassin or Bounty Hunter. Both are much better than a plain thief. Swashbucklers are purely dual class fodder.
@Tanthalas in every later edition of D&D rangers could no longer wear heavy armor. I'm net even sure they were meant to in AD&D2. Now the thing is I'd rather have a plain fighter than a ranger, and I'll definitely make space for an Archer in any group, they dont need heavy armor since they will be mostly using ranged weapons.
@Tanthalas - I didn't realize they could wear heavy armor until Minsc got away with it. P&P rules limit ranger armor. Besides, Minsc isn't really a ranger - he's delusional after the head wound. He is a berserker!
Was the armor limitation already in 2e rules? In 3e rules they could always just get the feat for it.
You'd be safer against a M-60, +5 than a hasted archer.
I had a thought yesterday; it seems to me that there really is no reason to play anything that isn't a kit, at least as far as fighters and rangers go.
Thief is the only class I can see that there is incentive to be pure class.
For a pure thief I'd rather be an Assassin or Bounty Hunter. Both are much better than a plain thief. Swashbucklers are purely dual class fodder.
If you go pure class, then a kit is better, because you'd eventually get enough thief points anyway. But if you plan to dual, then the kits don't give enough points. You could go with Swashbuckler then dual, but then you can't backstab.
Yea, but it depends on whether you want to backstab, or have -3 AC and +2 hit rolls on your dual class.
Theres no point to dualing assassins or bounty hunters anyway as they dont get their major kit bonuses until much higher levels (7x backstabs, or super strong traps).
Exactly, that's the incentive to not use kits if you plan on dual classing a thief. I personally would rather have backstab, because backstabbing is fun.
@Tanthalas - I have to look at my players handbook again. I remember them as light armor, but I'm getting old and senile and have a TEFLON (TM) memory...
@reedmilfam They didn't have any limitations. We had a player in our table who would always play a ranger in fullplate. No don't ask me why he just didn't create a plain fighter.
If you really wanted a fighter with rogue skills and didn't care about the backstabbing, Swashbuckler is great. Or maybe playing a mage where you don't want to risk them for a small backstab multiplier and just want them to be able to thump heads if necessary.
Awong isn't disputing the kit's usefulness. Awong is simply saying that no Thief kit completely replaces the default kit, there are always advantages and disadvantages. I would say Fighter is the same way.
Awong says this in contrast to, say, the Ranger kits. Who is seriously going to take a default Ranger when you can be a Stalker or Archer?
I think all the kits were supposedly designed that way, such that there are big enough drawbacks that still make the pure class desirable in some situations. But the drawbacks on some kits aren't really that bad, and makes the pure class kind of irrelevant.
I'll agree with that. There are roleplay reasons or maybe just the versatility in some cases. But some kits just waaaay overshadow the base class. Like, any of the paladin kits are better than the default one.
Comments
I dont know if you keep your draw upon holy might power that late in the game, but I had it on my test archer and it gave him 25 dex, plus called shot, plus GWW = pew pew pew pew pew pew 10 arrows per round with archer bonuses and 25 dexterity.
Disclaimer: PINCUSHION is not an actual spell and is not included in BG:EE.
Sorry the joke had to be made even though I never played Skyrim
I had a thought yesterday; it seems to me that there really is no reason to play anything that isn't a kit, at least as far as fighters and rangers go.
@Tanthalas in every later edition of D&D rangers could no longer wear heavy armor. I'm net even sure they were meant to in AD&D2. Now the thing is I'd rather have a plain fighter than a ranger, and I'll definitely make space for an Archer in any group, they dont need heavy armor since they will be mostly using ranged weapons.
EDIT: wikipedia says they could wear any armor.
Theres no point to dualing assassins or bounty hunters anyway as they dont get their major kit bonuses until much higher levels (7x backstabs, or super strong traps).
Awong says this in contrast to, say, the Ranger kits. Who is seriously going to take a default Ranger when you can be a Stalker or Archer?