Mod idea for brainstorming: "Let's Kill Imoen" ... (MAJOR BG2 spoilers, beware!)
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EDIT: I found that old thread of mine: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/62947/how-about-a-kill-imoen-dead-mod , there may be some useful ideas there, including one person's description of the creation of such a mod in the distant past that was, alas, lost to a Flood. (Username: God. I have many questions of a theological nature now regarding divine power and intentions. Perhaps Ao the Overgod sent that flood?)
As for helping, I'm all thumbs when it comes to coding, but I could help with the concepts and FR lore, etc.
1. I like it. But, what if, additionally...
Or, something is added such that it makes sense that she doesn't die. Maybe she is resurrected whenever she dies in normal circumstances. When this first happens, a dialog is initiated where she has absolutely no idea why that happens ( but we all know it's because bhaalspawn)
This can be done in conjunction with her actually dying in spellhold.
Speaking of which: maybe charname could do something to save her from perma death ( though through some kind of sacrifice)
I actually really like 3 as it might potentially help explain the delay. This guy has your soul and you seem to be dying. Even if you didn't care about imoen, it seems like you would definitely rush to get your soul back rather that dally in some random dungeon
As for helping: I'm always down. But, i couldn't make a huge commitment as I've already committed myself pretty heavily and i don't have much time as it is
I would very much like to have a "take the time pressure out" component for BGII. I would like to be able to play BGII as I did BG1 - yes, there is a main and very powerful foe out there, but no, I have no idea where so I'll start investigating things and doing quests along the way. My thoughts for a solution went into another direction, though. What if Imoen wasn't taken by the Cowled Wizards, or what if one of them manages to set her free before Irenicus takes over the Stonghold. They only warn the PC if he does magic in the streets, so taking Imoen to Spellhold and holding her there is not what her actions request, they only do it because Irenicus wants it. Second time pressure is the lanthorpe. You finally rescued Imoen and are back from the Underdark. Do you have time now to go and save Umar Hills? No, because the elven city is under attack right now. (Yes, your soul is missing and you are slowly losing to the evil inside you, but that's details). I have no own idea how to take the time pressure out for this one, though.
I have own projects that keep me more than busy, so I will not commit to another project.
As for 1): It helps a lot if you know exactly what you want to get help with modding. If you are no modder, you could replay the Spellhold scene and note where such a change would fit into Imoen's dialogue (without changing the BGII story too much, since Bodhi is supposed to get her soul). Then all in all it's not too much work.
I just don't have time (plus motivation, tbh) to go through Imoen's dialogue myself to identify the best line for interjection. And I don't have time to participate in a larger mod.
But from a player's perspective a "take the time pressure out" mod would interest me very much. I like the idea with the magic barrier.
Still, as I pointed out above, I'd even prefer a mod that takes the pressure out not because the PC should but can't go after Irenicus (more money, some quest condition has to be fulfilled, magic barrier) but also because there is no pressure because of people dying / being tortured while the PC is collecting quest items. I am aware that this would also change one of the main game story archs if Imoen would be out of the danger, so I am not expecting this idea to be very popular.
I see one potential issue with 1). If the party comes to Spellhold with only Yoshimo as a thief, then the party has no chance to pick up an alternate thief until Chapter 6.
Here's an idea... Imoen doesn't die in Spellhold.
While traveling through the Underdark, Imoen mentions also having dark dreams. She's shaken. She feels herself succumbing to the darkness. After entering AR2401 (the spider/drow/elf fight at the Underdark exit), she loses control. She transforms into the Slayer, and...
The reason is already there - collect enough gold to pay for voyage. Use SCS' component if the price seems to easily affordable.
Again, it's already justified by needing to level-up the party. I play with reduced kill XP rewards to balance things out, personally.
Players were originally supposed to find the lanthern broken and pieces scattered across the quest strongholds. Search scripts for "lens". This would be more like UB restoration, indeed.
off: i will be very happy to finally create a mod or smthing to start the Irenicus dungeon with bg1 npc-s, i know SOD but idk.
To me, this would make the time it takes to prepare and raise the needed gold etc. a *lot* easier to justify.
After that, subtledoctor's idea of "letting Imoen die" could still kick in, for those who want it. Also possible is the idea of Imoen finding her way to the temple of Lathander in Athkatla to recover (details would have to follow) while the PC hunts Irenicus into the Underdark.
@Ardanis Very interesting. I see why it was cut, though, since it seems it was meant to give the player the possibility to do all Stronghold quests before leaving for Suldanesselar (which most players will already have done in Chapter 2).
It's just that the reason is RAPIDLY eliminated by a gameplay/plot desync. Also the MANY lines that are variations of "Yeah, yeah, I need to do your quest to get money to (free Imoen/chase Irenicus), so how much are you paying me?" also gives a disconnect when you're walking around with 200k gold as you're cleaning house, righting wrongs, and otherwise fighting For Great Justice.
That said, this mod's really not for me unless it was done REALLY well. On the one hand, an excuse to axe an NPC means one less for me to agonize over keeping (And I'm kind of soft on Nalia's naive idealism anyways (Well, except now that I think about it, I despise her idle voiceover)), plus it just rubs me wrong that she's a mage. I know all the powergaming is to turn her into a T->F, but I'd rather she have just stayed Pure Thief.
On the other hand, she's one of only 2 links to BG1 that remain with me in BG2/ToB (I give Minsc the boot very quickly, as soon as I get to Chap 2 in vanilla. With UB mod, as soon as I've done his quest), plus, well, I find it unsettling to consider going through all the trouble of getting to Spellhold to rescue her, only to find her dead and unraisable. Oh yeah, plus it kind of makes Imoen mods irrelevant.
She has 1 line in the Chapter 2->Chap 3 cutscene when Irenicus breaks loose from his containment.
Believe it goes like this:
Irenicus: Hello little one, you and I have a great deal to do.
Imoen: What...what are you going to do?
Irenicus: Not to worry. Nothing worse than I plan to do to your friend.
I guess you could leave the next Irenicus/Imoen Spellhold cutscene alone (where he removes her soul).
The odd thing is that as players we'll have to actively choose to subject ourselves to this tragedy not just by installing the mod but also through dialogue, as if we could adjust the game's genre through conversation choices. This seems rather interesting, almost like how a future Planescape game could reflect players' individual desires & playstyles in its setting...
That said I think that this is a good idea which fills a well-known hole in BG2's plot for the roleplayers among us, and well worth doing. Hope to hear more about it!
Reviving her would not even contradict her being a Bhaalspawn (who should die permanently), because she doesn't have her godly soul! (Whether she should be resurrectable after such a long pause and without a soul etc.pp. that's details.)
@subtledoctor How did you decompile the dlg? Because with WeiDU it usually gives the code as well as the text lines which is easier to read.
My suggestion would be to make the interjection into state 19, after the dialogue played out, before the player has to decide whether to let her join or leave. Because the dialogue is good information about what Irenicus did, Imoen's heritage and the info that they both will die if they don't have their souls, and it makes most sense to let it play in Spellhold. In state 19 Imoen says: ~If we don't reverse what was done... if we don't restore our souls... we will probably both die. ~ which would be a good transiton line imho.
If you want to go your way (where the dialogue could be skipped), it's also possible to insert a new state with WEIGHT that plays before the original trigger line:
APPEND IMOEN2 IF WEIGHT #-1 ~True()~ THEN imoen_can_die SAY ~Unhh...~ ++ ~Imoen! Looks like you're recovering from whatever was affecting you earlier.~ + 1 //Imoen's original first line ++ ~Imoen! You seem like you're slipping away!~ + imoen_can_die_01 END IF ~~ THEN imoen_can_die_01 SAY ~Feel so... empty... can't hold on...~ IF ~~ THEN DO ~Kill(Myself)~ EXIT END END //APPEND IMOEN21) Timer on rescue Imoen; depending on how long you take - Imoen is fine, mad or would have died (but Bodhi turned her into a vampire). An option on install to set a timer at various lengths or simply choose one of the above.
2) When you rescue her - it would play out much the same as original - add a few crazy lines which increase as her sanity slips away - Cadderly or someone could show-up later or something and take her away. Vampire option - she could act totally normal at first, then at some easy to code point - she can surprise everyone.
(n.b. for me the 120,000 gp from scs is reason enough for early quests) - maybe add some dialogue that currently no ship will dare sail due to pirate infestation and Saemon is only one crazy enough to agree.
3) I think a good reason for more later quests (using story already there) - would be making the allies more important - perhaps doing quests will earn an ally and each ally has a unique part of the puzzle to access Bodhi's lair.
I love this!!! One problem is that it would be hard for her to hide her vampirism ( the sun and all...)
Wait: when do you enter the underdark? I haven't done a playthrough in a long time. What's the sequence of events after you rescue her?
fowled. Sometimes he makes it, sometimes he doesn't. And since CHARNAME is more adjusted to the fact of who he is already it makes sense he would automatically survive the de-souling(at least better chance than Immy).
Speaking of Imoen dying, it is an interesting idea, I have few character backgrounds that take her anyway.
But one thing that bugs me about her is that she is capable of being raised from the dead or de-petrified. How is this possible when CHARNAME is toast after both of these. Now I always assumed, like with Saervok, the soul automatically returns to Bhaalswamp or wherever.
It is not like CHARNAME is anymore aware of his real father than Imoen is at the beginning, so that would throw out the ol 'Imoen is innocent' mess. I mean if a LG Paladin can start and not be raised. Even AFTER finding out she can be raised. So, with that in mind, I think it is high time she gets treated like the real Bhaalspawn that she is.
Option 1)' I feel so cold ' croak, bit. Heck it might even make CHARNAME haul his butt a little faster to get done with things(well, if we did not know how the real game timer worked, but still).
The poisoning assassins in BG always has me remembering not to do much else before finding the antidote.
Given my previous thoughts above I would find it pretty darn hard NOT to press that 'urk' button. Just... well, just cause.
Anyway, I wonder if this was even given a thought when BG was first developed? I know she was a late addition.
Come to think of , the McMuffin I'd like to find would be the item that would ALLOW the CHARNAME to be raised or whatnot. Would be great to see another in the party do what CHARNAME does for them often. Course with that we get into the whole notion of WHICH NPC's would do that deed, OR, just tell CHARNAME, "I guess you ain't gonna be needin those sneakers anymore, are you."
Before I understood the whole soul bit upon gettn killed ,with good characters in the group (or bad), that could not even take the time to drag me by the leg to the nearest temple got me fired up about them (why you dirty no good, backstabbin, selfish, so in so's).
Would anyone be interested in this, too?