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How I wish modders would place their Readme files inside the mod folder.

Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,848
I don't know if others are as annoyed about this as I am, but it really annoys me that so often I have to manually put the readme files inside the mod folder to prevent them being overwritten by other readme files written for other mods.

IMO this is either sheer laziness or a complete lack of understanding of modding procedures.

Do modders actually believe that theirs is the only mod that will be installed?

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

Only have the exe file and the tp2 file outside the folder for the mod.

(Or a bat file if that is how you have written the mod.)

If you can make the mod work with the tp2 inside the mod folder, so much the better.

Rant over. :)

This post is just written to urge modders to put their brains into gear, not to upset anybody.
Allbrother

Comments

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    If you use a tool like GitHub to maintain the mod codebase, it wants the README.md in the base folder of the repository. If it is, GitHub will take the README.md file and display right on the repository's main page (see below). GitHub won't find the README to display if it's buried inside the repository (and will complain about the lack of a README file).



    Before you accuse modders of needing "to put their brains into gear", think that maybe there is a reason for the README to be in the main project folder.


    bob_veng
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,848
    edited March 2017
    Then an answer to this needs to be found. If several mods are downloaded, then the readme will be overwritten. This has happened to me in the past before I understood the problem. It seems to me that the Github tool is to blame. Surely it is not THAT difficult to search subfolders for the file. Windows does that all the time.

    PS I DID say that the purpose of the post was to find a solution, NOT to upset anybody.

    Perhaps an interim measure would be to put a copy of the readme inside the mod folder as that readme would not be overwritten. Some mods actually do that, often in a different format. Kudos to them. :)

    Another solution (In my opinion a worse one) would be to give the readme a mod specific name, but I have a feeling that Github would not be happy with that solution.

    I have come up with these solutions just on the spur of the moment, so am sure that even better solutions are there if the time is taken to think about it.

    I suspect that nobody has actually thought about it, otherwise a solution would already have been found.
    If this post actually causes an answer to be found, it will have done its job even if it has annoyed one or two.

    PS On a slightly different but similar topic the same thing happens with the gitignore file. Does it matter if that file is overwritten?
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437

    PS I DID say that the purpose of the post was to find a solution, NOT to upset anybody.

    If you weren't trying to upset anyone, why say something insulting?
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,848
    edited March 2017
    I was trying to say. Think about the problem, as I think that some modders haven't. Those that have a readme inside their folders as well as outside (The one inside is often an html or a text file rather than an md), clearly have thought about it, whilst others haven't.

    This is one of the problems about the web, tone of voice is missing and so misunderstandings can, and often do occur that would never happen in face to face communication. Emoticons help a bit, but clearly not enough.

    I was hoping that this might actually start a discussion, and hopefully come up with a solution on how mods can be improved in this respect, rather than cause people to get defensive.

    As a relatively small group, we are unlikely to be able to get Github to change, even though that would be the best solution. We therefore need to find alternatives. I have made one suggestion, but I am sure that modders will be able to make better ones.
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 2,669
    edited March 2017

    (...)
    either sheer laziness or a complete lack of understanding of modding procedures.

    Do modders actually believe that theirs is the only mod that will be installed?(...)
    to urge modders to put their brains into gear (...)

    Even emoticons wouldn't succeed in tuning the agression level of your first post down. Considering you are expecting modders to consider your input, it's not a good idea to start throwing insults as it tends to lead to a defense reaction. (q.e.d.) (Showing signs of not being open to criticism doesn't help, btw.)

    OT:
    I wasn't even aware this problem exists, but maybe I work with only a small selection of mods in total. And then there is mods who do both: BG1NPC Project, for example, has a readme in the highest level but this one only states some info about the project for GitHub users.

    Maybe a better approach than ranting in general (or, worse, start listing mods here) is to actually contacting modders who's mod's readme is on the .exe level in the mod package.

    Wise_Grimwald
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,848
    edited March 2017
    Point taken. I am currently in the process of installing 40+ mods, and so it was a problem albeit minor.

    I find installing mods stressful due to having to get installation order correct etc. so I should probably have waited a little before posting so that my exasperation didn't show through. :'( Sorry.

    This does seem to be a recent phenomena as in the past the readmes were almost invariably put inside the mod folder. It is probably Github that has caused the change.

    (In the past my frustration was caused by the readmes being hidden inside another folder and I didn't know which as there was no consistency between the different modders. Waiting until you start installing to read the readme is not best practice).

    Talking of consistency, whilst most modders start their exe files with setup- which is good, not all do. When doing an installation like mine, it is extremely helpful if the naming is consistent as the relevant files are all grouped together as below which makes the relevant files easier to find.



    As can be seen, there are a few which aren't. It is not a major problem, but it is one which needn't exist at all.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Wise_Grimwald
  • argent77argent77 Member Posts: 3,431
    edited March 2017
    It really depends on how you download mods from GitHub. I'm always creating a separate mod archive for each release which doesn't contain any Github-specific files, includes the setup executable and the correct folder structure.

    However, BWS usually links to the Github archive directly which will also contain files that are not needed by the mod itself (such as .gitignore, .gitattributes, or the project readme).
    Post edited by argent77 on
    CrevsDaak
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,848
    edited March 2017
    argent77 said:It really depends on how you download mods from GitHub. I'm always creating a separate mod archive for each release which doesn't contain any Github-specific files, includes the setup executable and the correct folder structure.

    However, BWS usually links to the Github archive directly which will also contain files that are not needed by the mod itself (such as .gitignore, .gitattributes, or the project readme).


    That is helpful, it means that if I tell 7zip to override the files .gitignore, .gitattributes or the project readme, I won't lose anything important. This is the reason that I started the thread.

    subtledoctor said:Setting aside the question of insult - which seems unintended, just a result of less-than-perfect phrasing - the OP does have a point here... to some extent.

    The issue for me, as someone whose mods are hosted on Github, is that the Readme.md file is ONLY for Github. I didn't even know it was being downloaded by users!

    But that doesn't matter. That file can be thrown away, or overwritten, or whatever. (I'm not sure my computer knows what to do with an .md extension anyway.) My real readme is inside my mod folder, with an .html extension. The two files are identical, but as far as I'm concerned the proper readme is inside the mod folder. For modders using Github, this seems to be a fine solution.

    For modders hosting elsewhere, like G3 or SHD, then I agree, keeping the reader inside the mod folder results in less file clutter. It can be accessed from Weidu by running the mod installer, so there's no need to put it somewhere prominent in the user's filesystem.

    EDIT - I also agree that some kind of standard would be nice for .tp2 and .exe names (i.e. use "setup-" or don't. I also think modders should tuck away their .tp2 files inside the mod folders. And that G3/SHS/PPG should stop using annoying .exe wrappers around their Weidu mods. But what are you going to do? Some of the authors of these mods haven't been around in over a decade. What a player can do is only use mods that conform to modern best practices. But then you will miss out on some stuff. If you want to get the benefit of some mods that don't conform, then you just have to deal with it.

    I couldn't agree more. The .exe wrappers used by G3/SHS/PPG have become even more annoying now that we have to use modmerge. First we have to run those wrappers to access the mod and exe files, then run modmerge and then run the installation exe of the mod.

    Having to unwrap the mod before you can read the readme is also a slight annoyance. Yes, the readme is usually there on the website, but I would prefer to have them all there on my computer in an easily accessable place where I can open and close them at will.

    IMO subtledoctor's mods are an excellent example of how mods should be written, and I would recommend all modders to look at how he packages mods and follow suit.

    Where you say "I also agree that some kind of standard would be nice for .tp2 and .exe names (i.e. use "setup-" or don't." I would most definitely say "DO". it enables sorting all the relevant exe files together at the flick of a button. If somebody is installing a small number of mods, it doesn't matter, but if you are installing a large number it matters a lot.

    PS An md file can be opened with notepad.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    argent77 said:

    It really depends on how you download mods from GitHub. I'm always creating a separate mod archive for each release which doesn't contain any Github-specific files, includes the setup executable and the correct folder structure.

    This what my mods do as well. If you download the mod using the "Releases" tab in GitHub, I have excluded the .git files and README.md in the main folder. However, if you download the "master.zip" file of the repository using the "Clone or Download" button on the GitHub page, you're going to get all the files in the repository, including the README.md in the main folder and .git files.
    Wise_Grimwald
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Wise_Grimwald
  • StefanOStefanO Member Posts: 346
    edited March 2017


    PS An md file can be opened with notepad.

    Indeed. MD stands for Markdown. Markdown was introduced by John Gruber 2004: http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/

    What annoys me most is that every modder uses a different compression tool. So far I've found tar files (.tar), compressed tar files (.tgz), zipped files (.zip), self-extracting zip files (.exe), files in rar format (.rar), and lately 7z files. Why don't everyone uses simply zip compression? Every desktop system can unzip zipped files without third-party software.

    Every modder should not only provide a readme but also include his license. Maybe this causes problems, because he most probably used weidu, and weidu is licensed under the GNU public license V2. The GNU GPL has a strong copyleft requirement. When distributing derived works, the source code of the work must be made available under the same license. There are multiple variants of the GNU GPL, each with different requirements.

    Wise_Grimwald
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Wise_GrimwaldArdanis
  • StefanOStefanO Member Posts: 346

    I think most modders don't have a great handle on how to think about licensing. Pretty much every mod I know has the same basic terms, in one form or another: "take this freely, use it freely, alter it freely for your own use; but don't redistribute it broadly without my okay, and don't pass it off as your own work, and don't try to make money off it."

    If you want this you have to claim your copyright first and state your conditions. I've never read the no redistribute rule in readmes, only in times G3/SHS are down it's stated in some forum posts.

    I think .tp2 scripts are the "source code" of a mod, so every Weidu mod complies with the GNU GPL

    I think so too.

    If the modder uses other peoples work (art, voice, translations, etc.) they should not only give credit but also check that they are allowed to use it.



    Wise_Grimwald
  • IsayaIsaya Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 752
    StefanO said:

    Every modder should not only provide a readme but also include his license. Maybe this causes problems, because he most probably used weidu, and weidu is licensed under the GNU public license V2. The GNU GPL has a strong copyleft requirement. When distributing derived works, the source code of the work must be made available under the same license. There are multiple variants of the GNU GPL, each with different requirements.

    It's time to read readmes... ;)
    Actually the WeiDU readme explicitely states you are allowed to distribute an unmodified copy of weidu executable file in a mod:
    You are welcome to use these utilities to make and distribute your own Infinity Engine mods. This utility is covered by the GNU General Public License, but you are also allowed to distribute an unmodified binary copy of WeiDU.EXE (without the source code) with your mod if you like.
  • StefanOStefanO Member Posts: 346
    edited March 2017
    weidu was never a problem. I took a look at the github repository. Everything is picture perfect, including a COPYING file with the GNU license text. The weidu source code can be downloaded.

    I'm afraid the same can't be said for the mods. Unfortunately there is no such a thing as a generally accepted IE games modder license.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    An observation.
    @Wise_Grimwald After a rocky start I think you really got some ideas flowing. :)

    Hehheh, my grandfather had a saying in the building supply business " Sometimes it takes a 2x4 :o to get ppls attn to a problem. (not that THAT is the best way to start, hehheh, but it happens sometimes).
    Wise_Grimwald
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,848
    Zaghoul said:

    An observation.
    @Wise_Grimwald After a rocky start I think you really got some ideas flowing. :)

    Hehheh, my grandfather had a saying in the building supply business " Sometimes it takes a 2x4 :o to get ppls attn to a problem. (not that THAT is the best way to start, hehheh, but it happens sometimes).

    However, I have learnt something. Don't start a thread when you're still stressed out through being in the middle of a major installation. My phraseology is normally a lot better than it was here.

    Having said that, my wife has told me that she has learned to listen when I get angry, as she discovers all the things that are bugging me. (I'm normally the type who keeps the peace by saying nothing.)
    Zaghoul
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    @Wise_Grimwald Yep, best to do something else for a bit, have a drink, smoke, walk, whatever calms one down. That pretty much goes with anything RL related to as well I think. AND as your wife said, just listen to the person first. I learned that in my work in the contracting business when going out on the 'madder than a hornets nest customer' calls. Give that woman a prize. :)
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,848
    The main prize is that we are still together after 36 years. We are as different as chalk and cheese. She vents her feelings all the time. I don't. It works! :) However she may get some chocolates as a prize tomorrow. It's Mothering Sunday here in the UK. It's like Mother's Day in the US but it has a religious connection here which IMO is sadly diminishing.
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