Assassins using darts after 2.3, still worthwhile?
Aerakar
Member Posts: 1,051
With the poison weapon changes in 2.3, are darts still worth it for assassins and ranged-poisoners? Stacking that poison was what made darts great. I guess spreading the pain in groups is still viable, but that sure does take a lot more micro-management.
It seems that without poison-stacking the dart advantage diminishes greatly, leaving short-bows and/or throwing daggers (mainly in SoA) as preferred assassin weapons.
It seems that without poison-stacking the dart advantage diminishes greatly, leaving short-bows and/or throwing daggers (mainly in SoA) as preferred assassin weapons.
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Darts are less attractive now it seems for assassins. I guess my gnomish killer will stick to short bows then for BG and throw in both returning and poisoned throwing daggers (pun intended) while stalking through Amn.
Swashbucklers in BG1:
Darts
Shortbows
Crossbows
Daggers
Slings
Swashbucklers in BG2:
Daggers (see below)
Darts
Shortbows
Crossbows
Slings
As for non-Swashbucklers in each game:
In BG1, since the only ranged weapon with distinctive features usable by thieves is the Light Crossbow of Speed (Army Scythe), I think I'd order them like this:
Shortbows
Crossbows
Darts
Daggers
Slings
Shortbows are on top because the Shortbow +1 is available pretty early (though I don't remember where) and because there are more types of magical arrows, including Arrows of Biting and Arrows of Dispelling, than any other form of ammunition. Magical arrows are also much easier to find.
Crossbow are second because of the Army Scythe. Magical bolts are awfully strong, but they're quite rare.
Darts are third because of their high APR. They suffer from lower range, and while Darts of Stunning are the most dangerous form of ammunition in the game, they're also extremely rare.
Daggers are fourth solely because they get 2 APR and because they double as a backstab weapon, and putting a proficiency point in daggers also lets you use the Dagger of Venom once you can afford it. If you don't plan on backstabbing (with this weapon, anyway), then daggers still win out over slings due to their APR.
Slings are at the bottom because they have the lowest APR. They have better range than daggers and darts, and unlike shortbows and crossbows, slings can be used with shields, but thieves cannot use the best shields; only bucklers.
In BG2, weapons are much more diverse and the situation changes a lot.
Darts
Crossbows
Shortbows
Slings
Daggers
Darts are at the top because the Crimson Dart is available on the first level of Watcher's Keep and can be obtained with zero fighting. Infinite +3 darts at 3 APR from the beginning of the game, at no cost. Darts of Stunning and Darts of Wounding are also much more common than in BG1, and the former is still game-breaking in many encounters. Now that Enchanted Weapon in EE can set any weapon to strike as a +3 weapon, Darts of Stunning can now disable enemies like Planetars (though a single-classed thief will need a lot of help to land hits on critters like that).
Crossbows are second because Firetooth +4 (not to be confused with Firetooth +3, a throwing dagger) is available just outside Watcher's Keep. It costs a lot of money, but its high THAC0 bonus and damage compensate for a thief's lack of proficiencies. With the EE Poison Weapon nerf, Assassins can only poison an enemy once per round, and Firetooth +4 can ensure that successful hit due to its high THAC0 bonus, even if its APR is weaker. Firetooth +4 can also bypass both PFMW and Stoneskin if you combine it with normal bolts. The Light Crossbow of Speed is a strong alternative if you're using magical ammunition, in which case its higher APR can outweigh Firetooth's high THAC0 and damage.
Shortbows are third because of the Tuigan Bow, also available at the start of the game with almost no fighting. With 3 APR and better range than a dart, it's a very reliable weapon for anyone that can use it.
Slings are fourth because you can get higher THAC0 bonuses with slings than any other form of ammunition. The Sling of Everard gives a +5 bonus, and later in the game you can find plenty of +4 and even +5 bullets. Damage also scales very well, and when thieves get Use Any Item, they can combine slings with high-end shields. The Shield of Reflection, made famous by @Alesia_B_H, is a spectacular option against Ascension Melissan. Slings, however, suffer from low APR, and they have virtually zero on-hit effects. There are no Bullets of Dispelling or Bullets of Stunning in the game.
Daggers are last because good throwing daggers are scarce. If my memory is correct, Firetooth +3 (not the +4 crossbow, but the +3 throwing dagger) is only available in the Underdark. It's a powerful weapon, however, and in the most recent version of EE, it can be dual-wielded and still grant 2 APR, making it extremely useful for a Swashbuckler--enough to put daggers at the top of the list for Swashbucklers, though you might wait to put pips in daggers until later in the game (putting them in short swords or scimitars for Kundane and Belm instead).
Would you be willing to take a similar crack at ranking melee weapons for thieves in both games?
For most thieves I would say that in BG1 the best all-round missile weapon is the Eagle bow that Marek has (though as noted above a sling may be better if you do lots of stealth shots). In BG2 I don't think there's a clear all-round winner - the Sling of Everard, light crossbow of speed, either Firetooth, Tuigan, Tansheron, crimson dart all have claims to be the best in a particular situation.
In summary I would say that any missile proficiency offers you perfectly decent options, so you may wish to make your decision on RP or aesthetic grounds rather than seeking the 'best' alternative.
All thief kits:
Daggers
Longswords
Staffs
Daggers are at the top because the Dagger of Venom is easily available and very powerful. Its poison effect makes it marginally more dangerous than Varscona despite Varscona's higher base damage and therefore higher backstab damage. The poison effect offers a saving throw, but enemy saves are pretty poor in BG1, so the dagger should deal much more damage on average.
The Staff of Striking is an excellent backstabbing tool, but it has limited charges. The Staff Mace is another stellar backstabbing tool, but I'm not familiar with either--I don't even know where to find them.
Swashbucklers have little need for the Staff of Striking as they cannot backstab, though the Staff Mace is still a strong option.
BG2:
Swashbucklers:
Scimitars
Katanas
Short swords
Daggers
Scimitars are at the top because Belm gives +1 APR and can be found in the Druid Grove with no fighting.
Katanas are just below that because Celestial Fury is also available early on, but only after beating Koshi in the Guarded Compound. Jaheira's Insect Plague can trivialize that fight in vanilla, but with SCS installed, Insect Plague will no longer be enough. Players can, however, try to take down Koshi while ignoring the rest of the party so they can get Celestial Fury without having to win the whole battle. Koshi is fast and extremely dangerous in melee, but has no immunities: a Wand of Paralyzation (available in a container in the southwestern rooms of the same area) or a similar disabler can take him down.
Short swords are next because of Arbane's Sword (available early, with several nice extra features) and Kundane (available in the Planar Prison, which is difficult to beat, but Kundane also offers +1 APR).
Daggers are last because, while Firetooth +3 is extremely powerful, you don't get it until the Underdark, and the daggers available before then are much worse than Belm, Kundane, and Celestial Fury. It's better to choose that proficiency at higher levels, when you can make more use of it.
Swashbucklers will want to dual-wield with Firetooth +3, Belm, and/or Kundane (the Shadow Thief Dagger is also a little known speed weapon, but it's very weak and EE removed its APR bonus). The highest damage output would come from using Firetooth +3 in the main hand and Belm in the off hand, but Celestial Fury's stun effect is strong enough to outweigh Firetooth's higher damage. I'd consider Celestial Fury in the main hand and Firetooth in the off hand to be ideal for a Swashbuckler, at least in terms of offensive power.
Non-Swashbuckler thieves:
Katanas (if SCS is installed, switch places with short swords and scimitars)
Staffs
Short swords (redundant with short swords)
Scimitars (redundant with short swords)
Thieves who can backstab--not just Assassins, but anyone who's not a Swashbuckler--are generally best off using Celestial Fury on most targets, while saving the Staff of Striking for more important targets. However, I'd say that katanas aren't worth your first melee weapon proficiency if you have SCS installed, as killing Koshi and taking his sword can be very challenging. Without Celestial Fury, it's generally better to use either scimitars or short swords for backstabbing and direct melee combat. Picking scimitars will give you an early speed weapon, but picking short swords will give you a slightly better backstabbing weapon in the form of the Short Sword of Backstabbing (which has better THAC0 and a higher minimum damage roll than Belm) or the Short Sword of Mask (if you're willing to shell out the gold).
If you don't plan on backstabbing at all, and you want to save your thief's skill points for other things, then Belm will usually be your best bet, as the extra APR is worth more than the stunning effect of Celestial Fury.
Backstabbers will want to put a single pip in staffs so they can use the Staff of Striking for big fights. With +3 to hit and 1d6+9 base damage, a thief should be able to one-shot nearly any mage in the game. The Staff of Striking still has only 25 charges, however, so it may need to be recharged if you use it frequently. Celestial Fury comes in second place as a primary backstabbing weapon: at 8.5 base damage (Firetooth does 9, but 3 of that is fire damage and doesn't get multiplied during backstabs), Celestial Fury has the strongest average backstab damage before ToB. In ToB, that advantage shifts to Angurvadal.
That said, weapon choices depend on your party; some of these items are better off in the hands of certain NPCs. If Jaheira is in the party, she's better off dual-wielding Belm and Gnasher. If Valygar is in the party, he's better off using Celestial Fury. If Mazzy is in the party, you'll want to hand your best short sword to her instead.
On quarterstaffs, with THS and the +3 Aule's Staff one from Ulgoth's Bear in BG1, the average damage will exceed +2 Varscona - 7.5 versus 6.5 if my math is correct - before the +1 cold damage is accounted for. With THS I would propose that quarterstaff should be above long sword for BG1 and therefore be in slot 2 for both games for a non-swashbuckler. Also, the + THACO is 1 higher and also the staff is faster with better reach than Varscona. It is not as accessible as Varscona, but plausibly available early enough regardless.
Losing the +1 cold damage is a negative since that helps with resistances and stoneskins, but the damage type - crushing versus slashing - somewhat evens that out in the longer-run. Regardless the cold damage is not multiplied in backstabs.
No really.
@Semiticgod Very insightful, can you post a run down for warriors too?
Melee:
Single-class warrior (if Ranger I recommend Dual-wield instead of two-handers):
Two-handed swords (you can get the +1 really early on, +2 is just pure awesome)
Long swords (can get +2 really early on, 2nd most damaging single handed weapon in the game)
Quarterstaves (most damaging single handed weapon in the game, ok staves early on as well, good Speed factor)
Daggers (Dagger of Venom is OP, you can get +2 without even fighting really early on)
Maces (can get +1 without fighting really early on, +2 deals a lot of damage, mostly here for Clerics anyway)
Bastard swords (they deal good damage, besides they're the best weapon against Werewolves/Loup Garoup, also Foebane in BG2 is disgustingly OP)
Ranged:
Single-class warrior:
Long bows (no explanation needed)
Short bows (still better ammo and in higher quantities than crossbows, besides better ApR)
Crossbows (highest damage per hit ranged weapons unless you're a Barbarian)
Slings (loads of damage but low ApR, takes a lot of time to build up the damage)
Darts (if Wizard Slayer these are better than Crossbows, otherwise almost useless except for Wounding/Stunning ones, which you shouldn't even need to use them in vanilla tbh)
BG2:
== For dual-wielding https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/849781/#Comment_849781 ==
Melee:
Rangers:
any dual wield option (suitable for the class) in post above
Long swords (good immunities, The Answerer, can find lots of good ones early on)
Short swords (same reasons as Long swords, except they suck lategame)
Axes (OK most of the game, broken in lategame, no immunities but ranged possibilities and Undead destroy % chance)
Maces (same reasons as Axes except no throwing ones and they suck lategame, but you can get Level Drain immunity)
Paladins:
Two handed swords (Carsomyr. Need I say more?)
Halberds (Dragon's Breath is very good at interrupting mages, the +6 one is very good too)
any dual wield option (suitable for the class) in post above
Long swords (see Rangers)
Maces (see Rangers, if you're an Undead Slayer, ignore these ones)
shield + GWW with whatever weapon you please (gives good AC and you don't lose any damage, you lose more access to other HLAs tho)
Fighters:
Staff of the Ram+6 with GWW (maximum melee damage output from a Warrior class in vanilla)
Halberds (see Paladins)
Two handed swords (good damage, but they're better in SoA than in ToB, still not bad)
any dual wield option (suitable for the class) in post above
Long swords (see Rangers)
shield + GWW with whatever weapon you please (see Paladins)
Ranged:
Wizard Slayers:
Crossbows (Firetooth is just too good, can be bought for not much, you have good ApR anyway and it deals a lot of damage, besides, Kuo Toa Bolts are OP, same for Jan's ammo and the BMU's gun with 5 ApR)
Darts (good ApR, +3 can be found really early on although not as much as Firetooth)
Short bows (ApR is great if you use Tuigan's, but worthless past half of SoA unless you switch to Gesen's)
Long bows (junk for WS, unless you've used them in BG1 and want to continue doing so. Stick to the Mana Bow, it gives you resistance vs. Magic damage)
Slings (you want ApR as a WS, so unless you intend to pair them with GWW, don't look here)
Everyone else:
Crossbows (see Wizard Slayers)
Short bows (see Wizard Slayers)
Slings (very good damage, but takes too long to build up, ApR is bad but I mean who cares about that)
Long bows (unless you're an archer or your thief is using short bows, ignore these)
Darts (pretty much useless for Fighters/Paladins/Rangers, damage is bad when you compare them to anything else)
* The weapons listed on the post on dual-wielding are better than the ones listed under the "refer to dual wielding post" thing
* I think Celestial Fury is overrated and it's better off on the hands of someone not looking towards dealing direct melee damage.
* I only listed single-class Warriors. For Fighter/Clerics it should be the same but with weapons Clerics can use instead. For Fighters/Thieves, you can do whatever you want actually, because you have UAI, backstab and can get proficiency in any weapon in the game, just have fun.
My favored BG1 fighter setup is longbows because the extra APR is so strong and STR bonuses aren't as important.
My favored BG2 fighter setup is Belm in the off hand and Celestial Fury in the main hand to maximize the stun effects. However, if I'm running a Barbarian, I use the Defender of Easthaven in the off hand because it stacks well with their damage resistances.
If you're running low on your stock of special darts, Tuigan gives you an identical 3 APR and is the backup ranged weapon of choice for poison weapon, (preferably with Arrows of Biting for double poison or Arrows of Piercing for the big THACO boost). And the Army Scythe + Kuo-Toa Bolts is another fun way to force enemies to make double-saves.
Fire Tooth (throwing dagger), Firetooth (crossbow), and Gesen's are typically some of the best ranged weapons, but I find Assassins are less about raw damage and more about APR and ammo with a second "save or ______" effect. Though Firetooth (and Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy and Sling of Everard) are still worth mentioning if for nothing else than the massive THACO bonus.