in the PnP it was meant to be kind of a tricksters upgrade to Improved invisibility but also a halfway step to project image. Give you a bit longer before they realized you had disappeared because their mind sees the image and expects you to still be there. Basically a special affects trick to hope people didn't notice you slipped through the trap door right away so to speak.
There’re many discussions on Mislead already, what about Simulacrum Songs, since there’re Vhailor’s Helm and scrolls Bard can use, or even PI songs, and what about two or more actual Bard members?
Of course the exploit is OP, in fact, even I think it should be removed, but should we actually do it in EE, no, let’s just leave the choice to players. OK, I think I’m repeating myself several times already, jeez…
should we actually do it in EE? That's up to BeamDog actually and they made their choice.
However Simulacrum is a bit different story. your actually making a temporary second version of yourself. Not quite as good as the original. And it's meant to be able to do much of the same things that you do independently of you. So there could be argued a little more justification there.
but considering how many bonus things don't stack with themselves when doing the exact same thing even before this change... Like items of protection such as rings and necklaces...
@fateless Did you read previous posts? Of course it's up to Beamdog to decide what to do in EE, and so do players who make their decisions of how to spend their money on Beamdog's future products based on their previous decisions.
Does removing it make you feel good? You always have the choice of simply not using it if you don't like it you know.
Well ye it's up to Beamdog, but that doesn't make it in good taste to tremble over the original designer's decision. BG is loved by many. I think Beamdog made some cool additions (not the npcs), but nerfing original abilities to enforce their own vision of balance to this old game is going out of bounds imo.
I believe the worst thing for a games longevity is a lazy developer who does nothing, and so I accept these changes by beamdog whether I like them or not.
I believe the worst thing for a games longevity is a lazy developer who does nothing, and so I accept these changes by beamdog whether I like them or not.
Many years ago, I had a lot of fun with these "exploits." I did a playthrough of the Black Pits (this was before BG2EE came out) using five skalds and a dart-throwing fighter. The skalds turned invisible and sang while the fighter threw darts at people for lots of damage.
Surprisingly, these "exploits" actually didn't make the game too easy. It was pretty challenging, about as much so as my previous, "more typical" playthroughs of the Black Pits. The skalds needed to huddle near the fighter for her to get all the buffs. This made the team especially vulnerable to area of effect spells. In addition, if the fighter got afflicted with paralysis or some other debilitating status condition, the party was in big trouble, because the skalds were mainly there just to assist the fighter. I was effectively only using a single, really powerful character, yet that character only got one sixth of the experience a true solo character would get.
So, from my experience, having bards be able to sing stacking songs while invisible does not make the game too easy, and it does not take away from the fun of the game.
topic resurrection
i agree with @subtledoctor about the devs and the code being our DM in this crpg.
but the EE devs have stated in more then an occasion that they want to fix whatever exploit that can cause problems to players not willing to use it and i don't see how it can happen in this case.
is completely up to the player to run a party with 2 or more bards, like i or @OlvynChuru did, with the purpose of stacking the songs, but i don't see how a player that does not want to do it can. he probably will have not many bards in the party and anyway if he has them he should be aware of what his toons are doing, if he has more then one bard sing it is clearly wanted and intentional.
about the bard stacking his song with the one of his clone or his clones well, the clones don't start to sing by themselves and he should be aware if he uses the script that make the bard sing and has the party ai turned on.
so we are not talking of fixing something that can not ruin the playing experience of the players not willing to use it, but of a deliberate choice of the EE developers to close some exploits that have very little or no chance to happen to a player not willing to use them. at least a player with a minimum of awareness of what he is doing in the game.
and this strikes with the declared policy of the EE developers about fixing bugs and exploits.
imo this is not the main way the developers ruined the bard class, the interaction between their song and the end of the round seem to me way more detrimental to the gameplay as now is almost impossible to implement a sing an attack strategy, and singing is a magic action and in the game a magic action and physical attacks in the same round are permitted. and actually is still possible to do it, at least in theory, it is only has turned into a micromanaging nightmare while in the original game was quite easy to do.
also reducing the aoe of the song prevents to hide a clone very far, maybe behind a closed door, and have it singing, again something that will never happen to a player that don't want to do it, but the present aoe is so small that is almost impossible to include in the aoe of the song the frontliners and the ranged attackers and casters. luckily @Tresset made a mod to fix that.
please beamdog restore the bards to their former glory, your version is still interesting and fun to play, but one of the reasons i continue to play the original game along with the EE version is to still play the bards like they was created by the original developers, and stacking clones songs is not the main tactical option that you arbitrarily closed among the ones i use and like.
Outstanding thread necromancy. Feels like we are a band of dwarves, delving deep in the ruins of a subterranean city in search of forbidden knowledge. Who knows when our digging will awaken an ancient evil and unleash it on the world?
please beamdog restore the bards to their former glory, your version is still interesting and fun to play, but one of the reasons i continue to play the original game along with the EE version is to still play the bards like they was created by the original developers, and stacking clones songs is not the main tactical option that you arbitrarily closed among the ones i use and like.
Agree: this constant piecemeal “balancing” adds nothing to the game, creates confusion, and undermines the players ability to play the game the way they choose. Role playing...
If Beamdog want to genuinely fix something how about Foebane and Minor drain so it actually works per description?
or the way the simulacrum inherit the mage spells, that in EE give to the player almost no control about the spells the clone retains or loose, making it only a spell useful for FM or warriors that get it trough the helm or the horde of 5 bunnies summoned by limited wish or...
i could continue, but there is a clear difference between fixing bugs or bad implementations introduced by EE and fixing completely optional exploits that don't affect anyone but who like to use them, that was a part of the fun of playing the original game, for those who liked that kind of fun, while telling that their policy about fixing bugs is completely different.
i apologize for the rant, but as the next patch will probably also the last as beamdog has now to focus on other projects, thing that is logic and welcome, maybe a rant now can sort some effect, is not too late to undo what has been done or do properly what has been changed.
As a veteran player, I thought it would be fun to try creating a party with several skalds, like some kind of Nordic raiding party. Then I read that Bard songs don't stack anymore. So I read the patch notes to see if they had some kind of amazing reason for making this impossible and ruining my experience.
"This update features three changes to items or abilities in order to rein in the power curve and prevent abuses that may ruin the experience for new and veteran players."
Interesting choice of words. It's hard for me to fathom how anyone's experience could be ruined by a game feature that you have to choose to use. But I have been filled with immeasurable disappointment at the legion of fun weird things you could do in this game that Beamdog have removed in the name of 'balance'.
The possibility for an awesome experience was ruined in order to prevent ruined experiences.
@namanamajela I completely agree with you, stacking songs is a player's choice that can not affect who does not do it intentionally, 2 mages can stack their webs or other spells, that are the peculiar caracteristic of a mage, 2 fighters can stack their physical attacks, the main one of a fighter, but 2 bards can not stack their songs, the peculiar feature of the class. Yes, because song is something different and.... Not true as a bard with enhanced HLA song and a skald with his maxed kit one can stack 2 songs that have almost identical effects. They also nerfed the song to an aoe ridiculously small, it is impossible to have it affect all the party unless you keep the casters and ranged toons very close to the mlee zone, they made impossible to use mislead to have the clone sing and in EE to have the bard sing and attack in the same round, thing that is easy to do in the original. They introduced in SoD an item that makes the song linger for 2 more rounds, but some players may not own that game or simply want to start their game directly in BG2 or play only BG1 so that item is not a solution to the nerfs. This and other nerfs of other completely intentional things, like putting 3 PI in a CC, is the reason why owning both the original game and the EE I play more often with the original, I really dislike when the developers of a game restrict the freedom of the players on issues that are intentional and not a problem at all for who don't want to use them. You talk about a party of skalds, I had before parties with 2 bards and had fun playing them, I will continue to have that kind of fun in the future, sadly not in EE...
Comments
Of course the exploit is OP, in fact, even I think it should be removed, but should we actually do it in EE, no, let’s just leave the choice to players. OK, I think I’m repeating myself several times already, jeez…
However Simulacrum is a bit different story. your actually making a temporary second version of yourself. Not quite as good as the original. And it's meant to be able to do much of the same things that you do independently of you. So there could be argued a little more justification there.
but considering how many bonus things don't stack with themselves when doing the exact same thing even before this change... Like items of protection such as rings and necklaces...
Does removing it make you feel good? You always have the choice of simply not using it if you don't like it you know.
There're as many bugs as request features due...
And btw, developers are for development, not deletion.
Surprisingly, these "exploits" actually didn't make the game too easy. It was pretty challenging, about as much so as my previous, "more typical" playthroughs of the Black Pits. The skalds needed to huddle near the fighter for her to get all the buffs. This made the team especially vulnerable to area of effect spells. In addition, if the fighter got afflicted with paralysis or some other debilitating status condition, the party was in big trouble, because the skalds were mainly there just to assist the fighter. I was effectively only using a single, really powerful character, yet that character only got one sixth of the experience a true solo character would get.
So, from my experience, having bards be able to sing stacking songs while invisible does not make the game too easy, and it does not take away from the fun of the game.
i agree with @subtledoctor about the devs and the code being our DM in this crpg.
but the EE devs have stated in more then an occasion that they want to fix whatever exploit that can cause problems to players not willing to use it and i don't see how it can happen in this case.
is completely up to the player to run a party with 2 or more bards, like i or @OlvynChuru did, with the purpose of stacking the songs, but i don't see how a player that does not want to do it can. he probably will have not many bards in the party and anyway if he has them he should be aware of what his toons are doing, if he has more then one bard sing it is clearly wanted and intentional.
about the bard stacking his song with the one of his clone or his clones well, the clones don't start to sing by themselves and he should be aware if he uses the script that make the bard sing and has the party ai turned on.
so we are not talking of fixing something that can not ruin the playing experience of the players not willing to use it, but of a deliberate choice of the EE developers to close some exploits that have very little or no chance to happen to a player not willing to use them. at least a player with a minimum of awareness of what he is doing in the game.
and this strikes with the declared policy of the EE developers about fixing bugs and exploits.
imo this is not the main way the developers ruined the bard class, the interaction between their song and the end of the round seem to me way more detrimental to the gameplay as now is almost impossible to implement a sing an attack strategy, and singing is a magic action and in the game a magic action and physical attacks in the same round are permitted. and actually is still possible to do it, at least in theory, it is only has turned into a micromanaging nightmare while in the original game was quite easy to do.
also reducing the aoe of the song prevents to hide a clone very far, maybe behind a closed door, and have it singing, again something that will never happen to a player that don't want to do it, but the present aoe is so small that is almost impossible to include in the aoe of the song the frontliners and the ranged attackers and casters. luckily @Tresset made a mod to fix that.
please beamdog restore the bards to their former glory, your version is still interesting and fun to play, but one of the reasons i continue to play the original game along with the EE version is to still play the bards like they was created by the original developers, and stacking clones songs is not the main tactical option that you arbitrarily closed among the ones i use and like.
Agree: this constant piecemeal “balancing” adds nothing to the game, creates confusion, and undermines the players ability to play the game the way they choose. Role playing...
If Beamdog want to genuinely fix something how about Foebane and Minor drain so it actually works per description?
i could continue, but there is a clear difference between fixing bugs or bad implementations introduced by EE and fixing completely optional exploits that don't affect anyone but who like to use them, that was a part of the fun of playing the original game, for those who liked that kind of fun, while telling that their policy about fixing bugs is completely different.
i apologize for the rant, but as the next patch will probably also the last as beamdog has now to focus on other projects, thing that is logic and welcome, maybe a rant now can sort some effect, is not too late to undo what has been done or do properly what has been changed.
"This update features three changes to items or abilities in order to rein in the power curve and prevent abuses that may ruin the experience for new and veteran players."
Interesting choice of words. It's hard for me to fathom how anyone's experience could be ruined by a game feature that you have to choose to use. But I have been filled with immeasurable disappointment at the legion of fun weird things you could do in this game that Beamdog have removed in the name of 'balance'.
The possibility for an awesome experience was ruined in order to prevent ruined experiences.
I wish there was a mod that undid these changes.