What Was Gorion's Plan Before It Was Derailed By Sarevok? **SPOILERS**
UnderstandMouseMagic
Member Posts: 2,147
In the discussion "Party Members You Always Use" I made some points about Gorion's uselessness (IMO). Which got me to thinking, what was he trying to do?
And by extension, what was the Harper's plan?
The prophecies talk about "Gorion's Ward", it's only in TOB you find out that GW is meant to be "the savior" because the alternatives are so much worse. Whether playing good or evil, you are still reckoned to be the best bet.
So, nobody knows about the TOB bit, but they have to be aware of the first. They are also aware of not being allowed to interfere.
So how does this knowledge play out if Sarevok hadn't turned up?
Why was Gorion even allowed to enter Candlekeep with you, and Imoen what were they thinking?
And why did he ensure you were so woefully unprepared for something that everybody knew was going to happen?
The only plausible reason I can think of is that Gorion and the Harpers were trying to break the prophecy. Prepare a "Gorion's Ward" that was going to be unable to create chaos or take part in any Bhaalspawn Wars because they would be easily killed.
I wonder if the letter you find was a last minute attack of guilt on Gorion's part for being a part of a conspiracy to leave you totally unprepared?
Anyway, would like to have people's opinions on how they see it panning out had Sarevok not killed Gorion.
And by extension, what was the Harper's plan?
The prophecies talk about "Gorion's Ward", it's only in TOB you find out that GW is meant to be "the savior" because the alternatives are so much worse. Whether playing good or evil, you are still reckoned to be the best bet.
So, nobody knows about the TOB bit, but they have to be aware of the first. They are also aware of not being allowed to interfere.
So how does this knowledge play out if Sarevok hadn't turned up?
Why was Gorion even allowed to enter Candlekeep with you, and Imoen what were they thinking?
And why did he ensure you were so woefully unprepared for something that everybody knew was going to happen?
The only plausible reason I can think of is that Gorion and the Harpers were trying to break the prophecy. Prepare a "Gorion's Ward" that was going to be unable to create chaos or take part in any Bhaalspawn Wars because they would be easily killed.
I wonder if the letter you find was a last minute attack of guilt on Gorion's part for being a part of a conspiracy to leave you totally unprepared?
Anyway, would like to have people's opinions on how they see it panning out had Sarevok not killed Gorion.
Post edited by UnderstandMouseMagic on
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As for your question, BG1 and BG2 seem to suggest that the Harpers knew Alaundo's prophecy and that was it, perhaps they kept you alive because they didn't know what to do with you in the first place and killing you would fuel Bhaal's ressurection. Also, I got the impression that Sarevok's rise was unexpected by everyone (Harpers, Zentharim...) , and even in BG2 the harpers are a bit ignorant about what is really going to happen when the prophecy kicks in .
Personally, I like the idea that you were actually being prepared for an uncertain future . Gorion is LG , and even though it doesn't mean "lawful nice" , it represents the fact that Gorion feels compassion and empathy towards you, and time could only have increased it.
If you are a fighter, by the time you're leaving Candlekeep you have become proficient in four different classes of weapons, (or specialized in two, or specialized in one and highly-skilled at the art of wielding two weapons at once, which requires a high level of combat mastery).
How did this happen? Reading books? Do you think Winthrop has become proficient in four types of weapons?
If you're a thief, you're skilled enough to open every lock in Candlekeep, you know how to hide in the shadows, and if you manage to sneak up behind someone, you even know where and how to strike to deal greater damage.
If you're a mage you've learned the basics of spellcraft and have even mastered three spells. If you're a cleric, you've made a connection with your god of choice and he or she has started to grant you divine power.
You're powerful enough to survive not one but *TWO* assassination attempts by actual assassins who were contracted to kill you before you ever leave the walls.
If you get in a fight with Marl, he's not busting out his dual longswords or firing off magic missiles or slipping into the shadows, sneaking up behind you, and stabbing you in some vital organ. He's a level 0 adventurer, someone who was not prepared by his foster father for the rigors of the road.
Why are you only level 1? Well, you're pretty young. Gorion wanted to give you much more training before sending you out into the world, but his hand was forced. And training in the safety of Candlekeep will never be as effective as surviving life-or-death situations on the road. But Khalid and Jahiera are both seasoned adventurers with the Harpers, and you're likely more skilled than either of them by the time you leave Candlekeep, so you must have been doing *something* with your time.
He withheld details of your origin, obviously, but I think that's very different from not trying to prepare you for the trials to come.
Done, sorry, just didn't think of it.
Yes that makes sense, end up with a murder baby, what on earth would you do with it?
I do think the prophecies are pretty well known though and I tend to believe Allaundo made quite a few over the years that turned out to be right hence the high esteem that Candlekeep has, and the respect for the currently unfolding ones.
I mean you are not going to chant stuff everyday for a thousand years if Allundo had come up with stuff that never came true, like the whole world being swallowed by a giant dog every other month.
Good points, perhaps I'm underestimating the amount of training because in game you die so easily.
But I would dispute the "pretty young".
It's a recent phenomena the extended childhood, at 20yo people back in the day would be parents. craftsmen ect. having worked for years. Even today you can sign up for the armed forces at sixteen although it's a limited commitment.
So next question, what's the plan?
In TOB, Elminster turns up and has a right go at you about the chaos and all you've done is followed and done what you have been told to do.
The pocket plain delivers you to Saradush so I presume that's some supernatural influence.
So lets say Gorion and the Harpers protected and trained you, for what?
I never got the sense that there *WAS* a long-term plan. I always felt the plan was more just "protect Charname". Nobody really had any idea what was going to happen, they were just trying to leave themselves well-positioned to deal with any surprises as they came up. The Harpers knew the game was underway and wanted to make sure they had the strongest opening hand possible to keep their options open.
That irritation out of the way, I think what is important and consistent is that the line, "their deaths shall feed the father" isn't well understood by anyone. Sarevok thought that meant that deaths caused by the Bhaalspawn could awaken the Lord of Murder's power, but that was wrong, as we found out later. Others may not have thought much of the line at all, just thought it meant that the children would be drawn towards the dark nature of their progenitor. Whatever they thought, any suppositions that the children were part of a plan to resurrect Bhaal would be only that, supposition, and only Melissan and the Five would know the truth for sure.
(Sorry if that sounds offensive, but given what I've had to deal with at my sons' schools, ... )
I see no reason for him not to go to the FAI and link up with Khalid and Jaheira, and Jaheira seems to be expecting him anyhow.
We all know that K&J are insistent about going to Nashkel to investigate the mines, so Gorion would've gotten involved in that - and the whole plot would've unraveled.
From the letter of his you can find, he was certainly aware that you couldn't just go hide out in the forest until it all blew over or travel to some far-away place where nobody could find you.
As far as why they were in Candlekeep to start with.
1. The prophecies are all there, so it's a good place to study what is going on.
2. It's hard to gain entry so your environment would be heavily controlled, and quite a bit more safe than other places.
3. They don't ask *why* you're there when you enter. Some of the memories you have later, demonstrate that Ulrant and Gorion had a lot of conflict about *you* being there in the first place, since Gorion obviously just gained entry with a fancy tome and then refused to leave.
"their deaths shall feed the father"
That's quite straightforward and as Charname was rescued from a temple where the followers were doing exactly that, not so sure it was misunderstood.
The Bhaal followers all understood and were following the plan, did the Harpers really not think to question them a bit?
I wonder if the plan was to keep a couple of Bhaalspawn alive so there was no resurrection?
But then that conflicts with what we are told later that AO himself had instructed nobody to interfere. Which Elminster et all must have been aware of because he doesn't help you.
And overall, is it better that Cyric has Bhaal's portfolio?
I really don't know about the FR but Cyric is portrayed as bad news quite a few times.
Or keep them safe until near the end and then throw them into the contest?
A kind of Harper/force of good sponsored contestant?
Untainted by the need to have murdered their way to the final so less likely to accept Murder Godhood.
That would tie in with what the Solar says to some extent. It says the prophecy talks of "Gorion's Ward" being the one to stop even worse bloodshed ect. and the one to stop the prophecy.
Yay for Sarevok foiling all these plans, wouldn't have a game without him.
Ao told other gods not to interfere. Maybe that applies to Elminster, too, since he's the consort of the goddess of magic, but surely not to mere mortals, or else you'd never get the services of a cleric involved anywhere. And I'm not 100 percent sure Elminster wasn't just being Elminster - he's not known for being traditionally helpful. He's tried at least once to usurp Ao and overthrow the other gods. Yeah, he's pretty bad. And here we get to the reason I was complaining about the writers monkeying around with the prophecy as it suited them, and making what I thought was a really clever Secret of NIMH comparison. Think about it - when, before TOB, do we get any indication that it makes any mention of a chosen one? We don't - Sarevok may have thought he was destined to succeed his father, but he's egomanical, so that doesn't count. But ten minutes into the last game, he comes back to tell us that he only thought that was possible because yeah, there's some additional section of Alaundo's prophecy that does indeed mention one of the children rising above the rest. And if not him, then it must certainly mean you, because, well, of course it does. Not like it's enough to just reveal Bhaal's resurrection plan, which answers the "feed the father" line in a way that's real ironic in showing Sarevok's ignorance, and explains why Bhaal bothered with seeding children everywhere, and paints a target on the PC's back. Gotta get destiny involved and ruin the coin on edge angle from the first game.
General rule of thumb - chosen ones are only interesting when they turn out to be total losers, like in Star Wars. And even then only kind of interesting. When writing a story, suppress the urge to prophecise like that.
He said that going into hiding was an option, either secluded in the forest (hence Jaheria) or being lost in the crowds of a large city away from the coast.
There, you could train better under the tutelage of the Harper's in an attempt to stop Bhaal's resurrection.
I dont think the plan was established passed that since no one knew when the reign of Chaos was actually going to start. In fact Saravok acted sooner than anticipated in hunting you out and starting the war.
It probably was a clever "Secret of Nimh" comparison, it's just that I don't know that story.
TBH I don't really mind the whole "chosen one" business because by the end of TOB I'm bleeding exhausted and fed up with the whole business.
So as Charname, yeah, feed that ego, I need the validation.
It does make sense to have the children killing each other though, it's quite an efficient way to ensure that all the "essence" does get collected.
Surely the "coin on the edge" refers to the path the Charname takes, not the end result?
So my head canon is that they posed as merchants (like merchants dealing in food or something else that wasn't suspicious) and got in that way.
Because I'm pretty sure Skank and Carbos would quite easily find the sort of books Candlekeep might not have but the monks themselves would be delighted to get their hands on.
Maybe they let anyone in if they offer up the Great Book of the Unknowing?
I'm mostly just poking fun at the forced plot device, because any keep that functioned by keeping everyone out via a super high entrance fee except for servants or merchants is pretty silly. Given the sacrosanct nature of Candlekeep's neutrality policy, you'd think they'd make an exception for the long time resident who was nearly murdered inside the walls twice and then accosted by assassins on the road. Even supposing Charname wasn't able to stay without Gorion's influence, the Gatewarden should have an interest in making sure folks weren't being killed a stone's throw from the gate. But then if Candle keep made sense they wouldn't be very Draconian I suppose.