Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit www.planescape.com to purchase and check for details.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

What Was Gorion's Plan Before It Was Derailed By Sarevok? **SPOILERS**

In the discussion "Party Members You Always Use" I made some points about Gorion's uselessness (IMO). Which got me to thinking, what was he trying to do?
And by extension, what was the Harper's plan?

The prophecies talk about "Gorion's Ward", it's only in TOB you find out that GW is meant to be "the savior" because the alternatives are so much worse. Whether playing good or evil, you are still reckoned to be the best bet.

So, nobody knows about the TOB bit, but they have to be aware of the first. They are also aware of not being allowed to interfere.

So how does this knowledge play out if Sarevok hadn't turned up?
Why was Gorion even allowed to enter Candlekeep with you, and Imoen what were they thinking?
And why did he ensure you were so woefully unprepared for something that everybody knew was going to happen?

The only plausible reason I can think of is that Gorion and the Harpers were trying to break the prophecy. Prepare a "Gorion's Ward" that was going to be unable to create chaos or take part in any Bhaalspawn Wars because they would be easily killed.
I wonder if the letter you find was a last minute attack of guilt on Gorion's part for being a part of a conspiracy to leave you totally unprepared?

Anyway, would like to have people's opinions on how they see it panning out had Sarevok not killed Gorion.
Post edited by UnderstandMouseMagic on
«1

Comments

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,474
    First, @UnderstandMouseMagic I would tag the thread as "spoiler" because there is more to it than just BG1 knowledge.

    As for your question, BG1 and BG2 seem to suggest that the Harpers knew Alaundo's prophecy and that was it, perhaps they kept you alive because they didn't know what to do with you in the first place and killing you would fuel Bhaal's ressurection. Also, I got the impression that Sarevok's rise was unexpected by everyone (Harpers, Zentharim...) , and even in BG2 the harpers are a bit ignorant about what is really going to happen when the prophecy kicks in .

    Personally, I like the idea that you were actually being prepared for an uncertain future . Gorion is LG , and even though it doesn't mean "lawful nice" , it represents the fact that Gorion feels compassion and empathy towards you, and time could only have increased it.
    ThacoBellRavenslight
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 152
    I always though Gorion wanted to give you a happy childhood, so that it would be easier for you to resist your dark urges. Also note that he is very insistant on giving you proper warrior / mage training, if you read your bio, and read the qoutes from the people in candlekeep. He obviously wishes to protect you.
    ThacoBellRavenslight
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,024
    I don't know if he HAD any long term plans in the works. Everything thing read/hear of his plans never extended further than "protect my ward". I'm willing to bet Elminster had stuff in mind though.
    Ravenslight
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 248
    There's this theory that I've seen that CHARNAME was actually being used as a decoy by Gorion, that CHARNAME was actually supposed to die while Imoen, the second Bhaalspawn that also could be considered "Gorion's Ward," was the focus of his goals. In that case, all the letters that are left behind are there to draw attention to CHARNAME, and allow Imoen to survive and thrive without being hunted as a Bhaalspawn.
    KuronaArtonaThacoBellNoobacca
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,264
    I'd like to just point out that the story of Charname follows almost exactly the same trope and tropes as Luke Skywalker's story from Star Wars. Gorion/Obi-Wan Kenobi has to give you minimal training and then die, because that's what the story formula calls for.
    SomeSortArtonamegamike15createaccount
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 650
    he may have intended to tell you your history when when you reached safety but died before he was able to.
    RavenslightThacoBell
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 642
    Neverused said:

    There's this theory that I've seen that CHARNAME was actually being used as a decoy by Gorion, that CHARNAME was actually supposed to die while Imoen, the second Bhaalspawn that also could be considered "Gorion's Ward," was the focus of his goals. In that case, all the letters that are left behind are there to draw attention to CHARNAME, and allow Imoen to survive and thrive without being hunted as a Bhaalspawn.

    This would be very cruel and manipulative but also fit perfectly the Harpers' MO. I don't believe the devs actually intended this for the simple reason Imoen was a last minute addition to BG1 but nevertheless this is an interesting theory.
    ArtonaRavenslightThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 683
    DJKajuru said:

    First, @UnderstandMouseMagic I would tag the thread as "spoiler" because there is more to it than just BG1 knowledge.

    As for your question, BG1 and BG2 seem to suggest that the Harpers knew Alaundo's prophecy and that was it, perhaps they kept you alive because they didn't know what to do with you in the first place and killing you would fuel Bhaal's ressurection. Also, I got the impression that Sarevok's rise was unexpected by everyone (Harpers, Zentharim...) , and even in BG2 the harpers are a bit ignorant about what is really going to happen when the prophecy kicks in .

    Personally, I like the idea that you were actually being prepared for an uncertain future . Gorion is LG , and even though it doesn't mean "lawful nice" , it represents the fact that Gorion feels compassion and empathy towards you, and time could only have increased it.



    Done, sorry, just didn't think of it.

    Yes that makes sense, end up with a murder baby, what on earth would you do with it?
    I do think the prophecies are pretty well known though and I tend to believe Allaundo made quite a few over the years that turned out to be right hence the high esteem that Candlekeep has, and the respect for the currently unfolding ones.

    I mean you are not going to chant stuff everyday for a thousand years if Allundo had come up with stuff that never came true, like the whole world being swallowed by a giant dog every other month.
    ThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 683
    @SomeSort

    Good points, perhaps I'm underestimating the amount of training because in game you die so easily.

    But I would dispute the "pretty young".
    It's a recent phenomena the extended childhood, at 20yo people back in the day would be parents. craftsmen ect. having worked for years. Even today you can sign up for the armed forces at sixteen although it's a limited commitment.

    So next question, what's the plan?
    In TOB, Elminster turns up and has a right go at you about the chaos and all you've done is followed and done what you have been told to do.
    The pocket plain delivers you to Saradush so I presume that's some supernatural influence.

    So lets say Gorion and the Harpers protected and trained you, for what?
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 251

    @SomeSort

    Good points, perhaps I'm underestimating the amount of training because in game you die so easily.

    But I would dispute the "pretty young".
    It's a recent phenomena the extended childhood, at 20yo people back in the day would be parents. craftsmen ect. having worked for years. Even today you can sign up for the armed forces at sixteen although it's a limited commitment.

    So next question, what's the plan?
    In TOB, Elminster turns up and has a right go at you about the chaos and all you've done is followed and done what you have been told to do.
    The pocket plain delivers you to Saradush so I presume that's some supernatural influence.

    So lets say Gorion and the Harpers protected and trained you, for what?

    Well, 20 is relatively old for a human, pretty young for a half-elf, barely an adolescent for an elf, etc. To some extent the timeline is constrained by the gameplay decision to let you choose from some of the longer-lived races.

    I never got the sense that there *WAS* a long-term plan. I always felt the plan was more just "protect Charname". Nobody really had any idea what was going to happen, they were just trying to leave themselves well-positioned to deal with any surprises as they came up. The Harpers knew the game was underway and wanted to make sure they had the strongest opening hand possible to keep their options open.
    ThacoBellCrevsDaakDJKajuru
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,116
    Judging from the factionalism in the Harpers that we see in Jaheira's BG2 quest, I assume that whatever plans Gorion had were between him and Elminster only, not necessarily shared with anyone else. Now, I've said somewhere else not that long ago that Alaundo's prophecy is worse than your average fictional prophecy, because not only is it one of those annoying self-fulfilling ones, but it's also never spelled out in full, so the game designers get to reinterpret it repeatedly however they want as the series goes on. Really, it reminds me less of the Oracle's prophecy in Oedipus Rex, and more of Nicodemus' prophecy about Timmy that was pulled out of nowhere in Secret of NIMH 2.

    That irritation out of the way, I think what is important and consistent is that the line, "their deaths shall feed the father" isn't well understood by anyone. Sarevok thought that meant that deaths caused by the Bhaalspawn could awaken the Lord of Murder's power, but that was wrong, as we found out later. Others may not have thought much of the line at all, just thought it meant that the children would be drawn towards the dark nature of their progenitor. Whatever they thought, any suppositions that the children were part of a plan to resurrect Bhaal would be only that, supposition, and only Melissan and the Five would know the truth for sure.
    DrakeICNNoobacca
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 152

    Judging from the factionalism in the Harpers that we see in Jaheira's BG2 quest, I assume that whatever plans Gorion had were between him and Elminster only, not necessarily shared with anyone else.

    I think you are halfway right. It is quite common that big organisation have decentralised control, handing over pet projects to one guy / gal or one small team - especially if they themselves insist on it. So, I would say that whatever harper powers to be, when Elminster and / or Gorion presented their (in this case literal) pet project for them were like "Ehhh... are you sure? Bhaalspawns are kind of evil" (shouting session ensues) "Fine fine, I know you guys are capable, so you take personal responsibility for that, then go ahead". And then of course, you always have jealous rivals backtalking and backstabbing, wooing for influence, that might be of a polar opposite opionon.
    DJKajuru
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 324
    SomeSort said:


    You're powerful enough to survive not one but *TWO* assassination attempts by actual assassins who were contracted to kill you before you ever leave the walls.

    Yeah, but those two are so incompetent they worked as school administrators.

    (Sorry if that sounds offensive, but given what I've had to deal with at my sons' schools, ... )

  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 301
    edited April 21
    I would presume that the plan was basically the same as whatever happens to start with - just sans Gorion.

    I see no reason for him not to go to the FAI and link up with Khalid and Jaheira, and Jaheira seems to be expecting him anyhow.

    We all know that K&J are insistent about going to Nashkel to investigate the mines, so Gorion would've gotten involved in that - and the whole plot would've unraveled.

    From the letter of his you can find, he was certainly aware that you couldn't just go hide out in the forest until it all blew over or travel to some far-away place where nobody could find you.

    As far as why they were in Candlekeep to start with.

    1. The prophecies are all there, so it's a good place to study what is going on.
    2. It's hard to gain entry so your environment would be heavily controlled, and quite a bit more safe than other places.
    3. They don't ask *why* you're there when you enter. Some of the memories you have later, demonstrate that Ulrant and Gorion had a lot of conflict about *you* being there in the first place, since Gorion obviously just gained entry with a fancy tome and then refused to leave.
    ThacoBellDJKajuru
  • BigfishBigfish Member Posts: 344
    The plan was likely "Raise the dark spawn demi-god to not be a total jerk and try to minimize the whole chaos thing." Assuming Sarevok never found out about Charname, Baldur's Gate pretty much plays out the same sans a few bounty hunters, and Gorion fills you in on your past about the point you find out what Sarevok is. Then someone divines your origins, random people start hounding you because you're a bhaalspawn, everything continues more or less the same, excepting perhaps a conflict with Gorion over who's in charge at some point, assuming he never dies but wants to keep trying to determine your destiny for you.
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 208

    he may have intended to tell you your history when when you reached safety but died before he was able to.

    Though if he'd actually said "Soon it will be time to reveal the secret of your birth and destiny" we would have known he was doomed to die in the next scene. We've all seen enough movies :D.

    ElysianEchoesThacoBellDJKajuru
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 683

    Judging from the factionalism in the Harpers that we see in Jaheira's BG2 quest, I assume that whatever plans Gorion had were between him and Elminster only, not necessarily shared with anyone else. Now, I've said somewhere else not that long ago that Alaundo's prophecy is worse than your average fictional prophecy, because not only is it one of those annoying self-fulfilling ones, but it's also never spelled out in full, so the game designers get to reinterpret it repeatedly however they want as the series goes on. Really, it reminds me less of the Oracle's prophecy in Oedipus Rex, and more of Nicodemus' prophecy about Timmy that was pulled out of nowhere in Secret of NIMH 2.

    That irritation out of the way, I think what is important and consistent is that the line, "their deaths shall feed the father" isn't well understood by anyone. Sarevok thought that meant that deaths caused by the Bhaalspawn could awaken the Lord of Murder's power, but that was wrong, as we found out later. Others may not have thought much of the line at all, just thought it meant that the children would be drawn towards the dark nature of their progenitor. Whatever they thought, any suppositions that the children were part of a plan to resurrect Bhaal would be only that, supposition, and only Melissan and the Five would know the truth for sure.


    "their deaths shall feed the father"

    That's quite straightforward and as Charname was rescued from a temple where the followers were doing exactly that, not so sure it was misunderstood.
    The Bhaal followers all understood and were following the plan, did the Harpers really not think to question them a bit?

    I wonder if the plan was to keep a couple of Bhaalspawn alive so there was no resurrection?
    But then that conflicts with what we are told later that AO himself had instructed nobody to interfere. Which Elminster et all must have been aware of because he doesn't help you.

    And overall, is it better that Cyric has Bhaal's portfolio?
    I really don't know about the FR but Cyric is portrayed as bad news quite a few times.

    Or keep them safe until near the end and then throw them into the contest?
    A kind of Harper/force of good sponsored contestant?
    Untainted by the need to have murdered their way to the final so less likely to accept Murder Godhood.

    That would tie in with what the Solar says to some extent. It says the prophecy talks of "Gorion's Ward" being the one to stop even worse bloodshed ect. and the one to stop the prophecy.

    Yay for Sarevok foiling all these plans, wouldn't have a game without him. :D
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,116


    "their deaths shall feed the father"

    That's quite straightforward and as Charname was rescued from a temple where the followers were doing exactly that, not so sure it was misunderstood.
    The Bhaal followers all understood and were following the plan, did the Harpers really not think to question them a bit?

    Going by the TOB flashbacks, and how he had to go in hard, kill his maybe-kinda-not-really-his-girlfriend, and thought he could only save one child, I'm not sure Gorion and his friends even won the field, let alone were in a position to take prisoners. And it's undeniably canon that Sarevok heard Alaundo's prophecies and totally missed the point, so apparently even really smart people could do just that.

    I wonder if the plan was to keep a couple of Bhaalspawn alive so there was no resurrection?
    But then that conflicts with what we are told later that AO himself had instructed nobody to interfere. Which Elminster et all must have been aware of because he doesn't help you.

    Ao told other gods not to interfere. Maybe that applies to Elminster, too, since he's the consort of the goddess of magic, but surely not to mere mortals, or else you'd never get the services of a cleric involved anywhere. And I'm not 100 percent sure Elminster wasn't just being Elminster - he's not known for being traditionally helpful.

    And overall, is it better that Cyric has Bhaal's portfolio?
    I really don't know about the FR but Cyric is portrayed as bad news quite a few times.

    He's tried at least once to usurp Ao and overthrow the other gods. Yeah, he's pretty bad.

    Or keep them safe until near the end and then throw them into the contest?
    A kind of Harper/force of good sponsored contestant?
    Untainted by the need to have murdered their way to the final so less likely to accept Murder Godhood.

    That would tie in with what the Solar says to some extent. It says the prophecy talks of "Gorion's Ward" being the one to stop even worse bloodshed ect. and the one to stop the prophecy.

    And here we get to the reason I was complaining about the writers monkeying around with the prophecy as it suited them, and making what I thought was a really clever Secret of NIMH comparison. Think about it - when, before TOB, do we get any indication that it makes any mention of a chosen one? We don't - Sarevok may have thought he was destined to succeed his father, but he's egomanical, so that doesn't count. But ten minutes into the last game, he comes back to tell us that he only thought that was possible because yeah, there's some additional section of Alaundo's prophecy that does indeed mention one of the children rising above the rest. And if not him, then it must certainly mean you, because, well, of course it does. Not like it's enough to just reveal Bhaal's resurrection plan, which answers the "feed the father" line in a way that's real ironic in showing Sarevok's ignorance, and explains why Bhaal bothered with seeding children everywhere, and paints a target on the PC's back. Gotta get destiny involved and ruin the coin on edge angle from the first game.

    General rule of thumb - chosen ones are only interesting when they turn out to be total losers, like in Star Wars. And even then only kind of interesting. When writing a story, suppress the urge to prophecise like that.
    Artona
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 4,113
    His plan was to meet up with Khalid and Jaheria, share your lineage with all three of you and plot the next course of action.

    He said that going into hiding was an option, either secluded in the forest (hence Jaheria) or being lost in the crowds of a large city away from the coast.

    There, you could train better under the tutelage of the Harper's in an attempt to stop Bhaal's resurrection.

    I dont think the plan was established passed that since no one knew when the reign of Chaos was actually going to start. In fact Saravok acted sooner than anticipated in hunting you out and starting the war.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 251
    tbone1 said:

    SomeSort said:


    You're powerful enough to survive not one but *TWO* assassination attempts by actual assassins who were contracted to kill you before you ever leave the walls.

    Yeah, but those two are so incompetent they worked as school administrators.

    (Sorry if that sounds offensive, but given what I've had to deal with at my sons' schools, ... )

    Video games are going to be really short once villains learn they should maybe open with Nimbul and Larze instead of first trying to save a buck with Carbos and Shank.
    ThacoBellOrlonKronsteen
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,116
    SomeSort said:


    Video games are going to be really short once villains learn they should maybe open with Nimbul and Larze instead of first trying to save a buck with Carbos and Shank.

    Nonsense. If you don't have what it takes to kite Larze to death and run Nimbul out of spells by abusing area transitions right at the start of the game, you just don't have what it takes to win.
    Artona
  • BigfishBigfish Member Posts: 344
    SomeSort said:

    tbone1 said:

    SomeSort said:


    You're powerful enough to survive not one but *TWO* assassination attempts by actual assassins who were contracted to kill you before you ever leave the walls.

    Yeah, but those two are so incompetent they worked as school administrators.

    (Sorry if that sounds offensive, but given what I've had to deal with at my sons' schools, ... )

    Video games are going to be really short once villains learn they should maybe open with Nimbul and Larze instead of first trying to save a buck with Carbos and Shank.
    You know they did drop 20k worth of books to get Shank and Carbos through the gate.
    OrlonKronsteenThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 683
    @Abi_Dalzim

    It probably was a clever "Secret of Nimh" comparison, it's just that I don't know that story. :/

    TBH I don't really mind the whole "chosen one" business because by the end of TOB I'm bleeding exhausted and fed up with the whole business.
    So as Charname, yeah, feed that ego, I need the validation.

    It does make sense to have the children killing each other though, it's quite an efficient way to ensure that all the "essence" does get collected.

    Surely the "coin on the edge" refers to the path the Charname takes, not the end result?
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 4,113
    Bigfish said:

    SomeSort said:

    tbone1 said:

    SomeSort said:


    You're powerful enough to survive not one but *TWO* assassination attempts by actual assassins who were contracted to kill you before you ever leave the walls.

    Yeah, but those two are so incompetent they worked as school administrators.

    (Sorry if that sounds offensive, but given what I've had to deal with at my sons' schools, ... )

    Video games are going to be really short once villains learn they should maybe open with Nimbul and Larze instead of first trying to save a buck with Carbos and Shank.
    You know they did drop 20k worth of books to get Shank and Carbos through the gate.
    I figured they got through the catacombs
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,219
    edited April 21
    Bigfish said:

    SomeSort said:

    tbone1 said:

    SomeSort said:


    You're powerful enough to survive not one but *TWO* assassination attempts by actual assassins who were contracted to kill you before you ever leave the walls.

    Yeah, but those two are so incompetent they worked as school administrators.

    (Sorry if that sounds offensive, but given what I've had to deal with at my sons' schools, ... )

    Video games are going to be really short once villains learn they should maybe open with Nimbul and Larze instead of first trying to save a buck with Carbos and Shank.
    You know they did drop 20k worth of books to get Shank and Carbos through the gate.
    I think its safe to say that the whole "10,000 gold" has to have had some exceptions, even if Volo and the game never brings them up. Like there would have to be an exception for merchants. Otherwise the town wouldn't ever get any supplies.

    So my head canon is that they posed as merchants (like merchants dealing in food or something else that wasn't suspicious) and got in that way.
    Post edited by elminster on
    ThacoBell
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 683
    Is it a book worth 10,000 GP or a book that the library doesn't have or rare?

    Because I'm pretty sure Skank and Carbos would quite easily find the sort of books Candlekeep might not have but the monks themselves would be delighted to get their hands on. ;)
    OrlonKronsteenThacoBell
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,219
    edited April 21
    According to Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast (and the game manual) its a book worth 10,000 gold. I don't have the game in front of me to check at the moment, but I think in the game it is just said to be a rare book of significant value.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,116
    I thought the value was 5,000. That's what the Nether Scrolls Tome you're given (allegedly) sells for. Anyways, given the puny sizes of the initial bounties, I think it's safe to assume that Sarevok wouldn't bother with such an extravagant expense, and that the first two posed as servants to get in. Hence why Shank smelled of the stables, I guess.
  • BigfishBigfish Member Posts: 344
    elminster said:

    According to Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast (and the game manual) its a book worth 10,000 gold. I don't have the game in front of me to check at the moment, but I think in the game it is just said to be a rare book of significant value.

    That actually brings up an interesting point about the value of a book, given that the price of anything is what someone is willing to pay for it, and with Candlekeep acting as a horder of rare books, it would functionally be any book which Candlekeep would allow access for.

    Maybe they let anyone in if they offer up the Great Book of the Unknowing?

    I'm mostly just poking fun at the forced plot device, because any keep that functioned by keeping everyone out via a super high entrance fee except for servants or merchants is pretty silly. Given the sacrosanct nature of Candlekeep's neutrality policy, you'd think they'd make an exception for the long time resident who was nearly murdered inside the walls twice and then accosted by assassins on the road. Even supposing Charname wasn't able to stay without Gorion's influence, the Gatewarden should have an interest in making sure folks weren't being killed a stone's throw from the gate. But then if Candle keep made sense they wouldn't be very Draconian I suppose.
    elminsterThacoBell
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.