Is it a book worth 10,000 GP or a book that the library doesn't have or rare?
Because I'm pretty sure Skank and Carbos would quite easily find the sort of books Candlekeep might not have but the monks themselves would be delighted to get their hands on.
Such as "Valley of the Trolls" or "Lady Chatterly's Plover".
Is it a book worth 10,000 GP or a book that the library doesn't have or rare?
Because I'm pretty sure Skank and Carbos would quite easily find the sort of books Candlekeep might not have but the monks themselves would be delighted to get their hands on.
Such as "Valley of the Trolls" or "Lady Chatterly's Plover".
The Nether Region Scrolls?
The Other Sisters of Light and Darkness.....(they were twins in the original unexpurgated version)?
I thought the value was 5,000. That's what the Nether Scrolls Tome you're given (allegedly) sells for. Anyways, given the puny sizes of the initial bounties, I think it's safe to assume that Sarevok wouldn't bother with such an extravagant expense, and that the first two posed as servants to get in. Hence why Shank smelled of the stables, I guess.
Mechanically the actual price of the book is 10,000 (same with Balduran's Logbook). However items don't normally sell for their full price.
But to examine any writing in the Keep's library, you have to gift Candlekeep with a new tome of no less than 10,000 gp in value (or/and be sponsored by a known mage of power), according to Volo's Sword Coast Survival Guide: https://cdn.baldursgate.com/files/SwordCoastSurvivalGuide.pdf
Here's a list of spells Gorion chose not to cast on mainchar upon fleeing from the city walls:
- Invisibility
Here's another list of spells that Gorion chose not to cast on mainchar after not casting the first spell:
- Non-detection
I'm almost 100% confident that Gorion was the one who put everything in place to have mainchar killed after a night of staying inside and watching "The Omen." It's the only thing that really makes any sense.
Here's a list of spells Gorion chose not to cast on mainchar upon fleeing from the city walls:
- Invisibility
Here's another list of spells that Gorion chose not to cast on mainchar after not casting the first spell:
- Non-detection
I'm almost 100% confident that Gorion was the one who put everything in place to have mainchar killed after a night of staying inside and watching "The Omen." It's the only thing that really makes any sense.
Invisibility 10' radius would have easily gotten him and Charname past Sarevok's goon squad. But noooo, he thought Fireball and Lightning Bolt were more important memorizations.
Then he should have had at least two extra level six castings for PFMW to hold off Sarevok a little longer. I say two and not one since he used Flesh to Stone and PFMW, naturally. Cheers to overthinking things.
Invisibility 10' radius would have easily gotten him and Charname past Sarevok's goon squad. But noooo, he thought Fireball and Lightning Bolt were more important memorizations.
Gorion spent too much time playing the Gold Box D&D games and thinks Maging is all about 'dem Fireballs.
@Wayniac Or he might have been saving them, but the ambush meant he had no chance to cast them.
They were quite a stroll northeast of the gate. At night, at the very least, he should have wanted to protect Charname against wolves and such, casting these spells the moment they stepped outside.
Invisibility 10' radius would have easily gotten him and Charname past Sarevok's goon squad. But noooo, he thought Fireball and Lightning Bolt were more important memorizations.
That's because he was hoping Charname died as part of the collateral damage.
Then he should have had at least two extra level six castings for PFMW to hold off Sarevok a little longer. I say two and not one since he used Flesh to Stone and PFMW, naturally. Cheers to overthinking things.
No. Not cheers to overthinking things. This isn't overthinking. This is discovering what his true intentions were.
And that doesn't even begin to count the number of other spells he didn't use:
Absolute Immunity - Protection from everything you'd possibly run into Chain Lightning - Mass damage without hurting your allies... pretty convenient spell to "forget" don't you think? Contingency - He could link this to any spell under the sun, but chose to ignore it completely Haste - Get to next destination approximately 100 times faster Polymorph Other - Turn Charname into a squirrel and carry him so nobody knows they're together Simulacrum - In case you get ambushed, which you shouldn't Any summon - Because twelve heads are better than two
And now that PFMW has been added to the list of spells he chose to not use, I think we can all agree that my "Omen Hypothesis" is starting to hold water.
No, it is really not. It is a conspiracy theory. The only evidence is circumstantial and it is glued together by speculation.
The conclusion also conflicts with all verifiable evidence, in the form of the notes left behind explaining Gorion and Elminster's motivation and from character dialogues. For instance, the first time you meet Elminster, he tests your street-smarts, and if you gots them he is happy, if you dont he offers advice. There is no evidence that it is all an act. Remember, the ghost of Gorion is even summoned to the pocket plane to answer some question about your heritage - do you not think the planetar would bother asking about this, if this was the case?
It also hinges on the idea that Gorion had planned on sacrificing his own life just to kill his own foster child.
Finally, "To me child, we will take them on together!" is a more prudent choice of words after being ambushed than is "Run child, get out of here!" if you wish your foster child to perish with you.
So, why did Gorion not use spells that would have better protected his foster child? Well, why did the indians bring food to save the pilgrims that later slaughtered them? Why did Stalin trust Hitler? Why did 99 air ballons* almost cause a nuclear war? People make mistakes, especially when under stress.
The conclusion also conflicts with all verifiable evidence, in the form of the notes left behind explaining Gorion and Elminster's motivation and from character dialogues.
I reject this as evidence to the contrary. All this shows is that Gorion hadn't watched "The Omen" until after he wrote those letters.
It also hinges on the idea that Gorion had planned on sacrificing his own life just to kill his own foster child.
Incorrect. Have you seen "The Omen"? You can try to avoid reality all you want, but the fact is that if you try to kill the child of a satanspawn, your death is inevitable.
Finally, "To me child, we will take them on together!" is a more prudent choice of words after being ambushed than is "Run child, get out of here!" if you wish your foster child to perish with you.
Unless you're trying to make a futile effort to save yourself by trying to convince the demon child that you're not behind these assassination attempts - see previous point.
The plan was to keep them both safe for as long as possible and perhaps teach them both to be good people that may survive and make choices for good instead of evil. Serevok spotted char name when he visited Candle keep to read the prophecies. He didn't notice Imoen so they left her in the seclusion of candlekeep while Gorian went on the run with character name. Gorian gave his life to save character name and saved you as a child as well. I think the idea that he was using you as a distraction so Imoen would be the one is wrong. Also, some of the writing was probably done off the cuff and was not meant to be scrutinized. This was the first game and it was back in the 90s when the gaming industry was differant.
Going by the TOB flashbacks, and how he had to go in hard, kill his maybe-kinda-not-really-his-girlfriend, and thought he could only save one child, I'm not sure Gorion and his friends even won the field, let alone were in a position to take prisoners.
Charname's mother is Gorion's "maybe-kinda-not-really-his-girlfriend"?? Where did you find that information? I just recently completed TOB, my memory is still fresh but I don't recall anything about Alianna mentioning that Gorion and herself are in any way romantically related. Or am I misreading this?
Going by the TOB flashbacks, and how he had to go in hard, kill his maybe-kinda-not-really-his-girlfriend, and thought he could only save one child, I'm not sure Gorion and his friends even won the field, let alone were in a position to take prisoners.
Charname's mother is Gorion's "maybe-kinda-not-really-his-girlfriend"?? Where did you find that information? I just recently completed TOB, my memory is still fresh but I don't recall anything about Alianna mentioning that Gorion and herself are in any way romantically related. Or am I misreading this?
Gorion's letter at Candlekeep indicates this. It kind of contradicts the later story and is often considered an inconsistency. However, it can also be interpreted otherwise, as Gorion *lying* about your mother was part of his plan. (There is also a - beamdog later added, misguided - hint in SoD Cyric/former Bhaal temple from the captured blind priestess of Bhaal). Since the harpers (Gorion, Elminster, Jaheira etc) had a notion of the further fate of this particular bhaalspawn, they intended to keep that child as innocent/good as possible. Gorion's preparation of the protagonist was not so much focussed on the physical strength of his ward (advebnturing life taught that fast enough) but the mental strength to defeat the most dangerous enemy of the ward, i.e. the enemy within, the seed of Bhaal. To be prepared for and to win this fight was Gorion's heritage. Gorion knew the fate was inescapable and he knew the spawn had to survive the initial onslaught of Sarevok. (He received Elminster's warning on the day before you left Candlekeep). Gorion sacrificed himself in order for you to escape. A large part of the trilogy is the protagonist being used and manipulated to adhere to the plans of others. Everybody has use for the powers of a bhaalspawn. This includes the harpers who need a bhaalspawn to finally prevent Bhaal's return. Look at a number of events in the game from this perspective and see why people tell you this or that at certain points in the game. Neither Elminster nor Gorion are an exception, not everybody is as obvious as Melissan.
You guys shouldn't try to find a perfect sense in everything in Baldur's Gate. Remember it's a game, so sometimes the scenario doesn't unfold as common sense would dictate, if only because there would be no game if it did.
And if you think a bit about it, the Harpers didn't necessarily want Charname dead, because Charname was the only Bhaalspawn they had in control, to some extent. The Harpers (or even just Gorion+Elminster) didn't want Bhaal to resurrect, because he is an evil god. The best way to do that was to educate a Bhaalspawn into being a force for good, or at least attempt to.
But really the ToB-added part of the prophecy about some chosen one rising above the others feels like a justification without which ToB wouldn't exist, and there might have been some better ways of writing ToB, but remember the practical point of view: there was one year between each of the BG games/expansions. That's a short timing to make a perfect game that's coherent on every single aspect and detail.
You guys shouldn't try to find a perfect sense in everything in Baldur's Gate. Remember it's a game, so sometimes the scenario doesn't unfold as common sense would dictate, if only because there would be no game if it did.
And if you think a bit about it, the Harpers didn't necessarily want Charname dead, because Charname was the only Bhaalspawn they had in control, to some extent. The Harpers (or even just Gorion+Elminster) didn't want Bhaal to resurrect, because he is an evil god. The best way to do that was to educate a Bhaalspawn into being a force for good, or at least attempt to.
But really the ToB-added part of the prophecy about some chosen one rising above the others feels like a justification without which ToB wouldn't exist, and there might have been some better ways of writing ToB, but remember the practical point of view: there was one year between each of the BG games/expansions. That's a short timing to make a perfect game that's coherent on every single aspect and detail.
The *imperfection* is something in the game to be really appreciated. Not for the sake of discussions like this, but also because it fuels the player's imagination. AND, it provides a lot of space for interesting mods that play around with alternatives and possibilities and thus add to the game. For example, I have currently EET and its mods installed, and it provides really interesting aspects on a number of issues that are often considered controversal. Often the question is, what is truth and what is (intentionally) lies to make the actors perform as they do. And the second question is, when something is a lie, who spreads it and what are the intentions behind it. Those mods are not canon and they don't spoil the game with answers, but digging into it is a lot of fun.
] Gorion's letter at Candlekeep indicates this. It kind of contradicts the later story and is often considered an inconsistency. However, it can also be interpreted otherwise, as Gorion *lying* about your mother was part of his plan. (There is also a - beamdog later added, misguided - hint in SoD Cyric/former Bhaal temple from the captured blind priestess of Bhaal).
I have couldn't remember this at all! Looks like it's time to replay BG again
] Since the harpers (Gorion, Elminster, Jaheira etc) had a notion of the further fate of this particular bhaalspawn, they intended to keep that child as innocent/good as possible. Gorion's preparation of the protagonist was not so much focussed on the physical strength of his ward (advebnturing life taught that fast enough) but the mental strength to defeat the most dangerous enemy of the ward, i.e. the enemy within, the seed of Bhaal. To be prepared for and to win this fight was Gorion's heritage. .
Totally agreed. I'm going to roleplay a Paladin for my next game and the way I see it, it's perhaps due to Gorion's influence that led Charname to a faith of a good deity, if there's any ulterior motive at all.
] Gorion's letter at Candlekeep indicates this. It kind of contradicts the later story and is often considered an inconsistency. However, it can also be interpreted otherwise, as Gorion *lying* about your mother was part of his plan. (There is also a - beamdog later added, misguided - hint in SoD Cyric/former Bhaal temple from the captured blind priestess of Bhaal).
I have couldn't remember this at all! Looks like it's time to replay BG again
] Since the harpers (Gorion, Elminster, Jaheira etc) had a notion of the further fate of this particular bhaalspawn, they intended to keep that child as innocent/good as possible. Gorion's preparation of the protagonist was not so much focussed on the physical strength of his ward (advebnturing life taught that fast enough) but the mental strength to defeat the most dangerous enemy of the ward, i.e. the enemy within, the seed of Bhaal. To be prepared for and to win this fight was Gorion's heritage. .
Totally agreed. I'm going to roleplay a Paladin for my next game and the way I see it, it's perhaps due to Gorion's influence that led Charname to a faith of a good deity, if there's any ulterior motive at all.
A hint:
Many of those issues you discussed on your various topics recently are actually subject of the Sandrah mod. Many of the hints and details I found are highlighted by the various quests and side plots of that mod. the author obviously knows the trilogy quite well and is not afraid to pick up those issues. However, the only way to play that mod is with an EET install. But be warned: the mod is certainly non-canon in the way that it only considers information that exists inside the game itself, e.g. the Drizzt there is the game's own Drizzt and not some figure from some novel that other players may have read. Also there is no consideration of Bhaal ever returning just because some other game or novel or whatever has such content.
Comments
The Other Sisters of Light and Darkness.....(they were twins in the original unexpurgated version)?
But to examine any writing in the Keep's library, you have to gift Candlekeep with a new tome of no less than 10,000 gp in value (or/and be sponsored by a known mage of power), according to Volo's Sword Coast Survival Guide: https://cdn.baldursgate.com/files/SwordCoastSurvivalGuide.pdf
- Invisibility
Here's another list of spells that Gorion chose not to cast on mainchar after not casting the first spell:
- Non-detection
I'm almost 100% confident that Gorion was the one who put everything in place to have mainchar killed after a night of staying inside and watching "The Omen." It's the only thing that really makes any sense.
And that doesn't even begin to count the number of other spells he didn't use:
Absolute Immunity - Protection from everything you'd possibly run into
Chain Lightning - Mass damage without hurting your allies... pretty convenient spell to "forget" don't you think?
Contingency - He could link this to any spell under the sun, but chose to ignore it completely
Haste - Get to next destination approximately 100 times faster
Polymorph Other - Turn Charname into a squirrel and carry him so nobody knows they're together
Simulacrum - In case you get ambushed, which you shouldn't
Any summon - Because twelve heads are better than two
And now that PFMW has been added to the list of spells he chose to not use, I think we can all agree that my "Omen Hypothesis" is starting to hold water.
The conclusion also conflicts with all verifiable evidence, in the form of the notes left behind explaining Gorion and Elminster's motivation and from character dialogues. For instance, the first time you meet Elminster, he tests your street-smarts, and if you gots them he is happy, if you dont he offers advice. There is no evidence that it is all an act. Remember, the ghost of Gorion is even summoned to the pocket plane to answer some question about your heritage - do you not think the planetar would bother asking about this, if this was the case?
It also hinges on the idea that Gorion had planned on sacrificing his own life just to kill his own foster child.
Finally, "To me child, we will take them on together!" is a more prudent choice of words after being ambushed than is "Run child, get out of here!" if you wish your foster child to perish with you.
So, why did Gorion not use spells that would have better protected his foster child? Well, why did the indians bring food to save the pilgrims that later slaughtered them? Why did Stalin trust Hitler? Why did 99 air ballons* almost cause a nuclear war? People make mistakes, especially when under stress.
*Ok fine it was clouds;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov
But that doesnt make nearly as good songs, does it?
And just to cement the theory, David Warner is in "The Omen".
Come on, that's case closed.
Irenicus "got" to him, he figured Sarevok would be more suitable.
You have strengthened my argument, Sir. And for that, I thank you.
Since the harpers (Gorion, Elminster, Jaheira etc) had a notion of the further fate of this particular bhaalspawn, they intended to keep that child as innocent/good as possible. Gorion's preparation of the protagonist was not so much focussed on the physical strength of his ward (advebnturing life taught that fast enough) but the mental strength to defeat the most dangerous enemy of the ward, i.e. the enemy within, the seed of Bhaal. To be prepared for and to win this fight was Gorion's heritage.
Gorion knew the fate was inescapable and he knew the spawn had to survive the initial onslaught of Sarevok. (He received Elminster's warning on the day before you left Candlekeep). Gorion sacrificed himself in order for you to escape.
A large part of the trilogy is the protagonist being used and manipulated to adhere to the plans of others. Everybody has use for the powers of a bhaalspawn. This includes the harpers who need a bhaalspawn to finally prevent Bhaal's return. Look at a number of events in the game from this perspective and see why people tell you this or that at certain points in the game. Neither Elminster nor Gorion are an exception, not everybody is as obvious as Melissan.
Remember it's a game, so sometimes the scenario doesn't unfold as common sense would dictate, if only because there would be no game if it did.
And if you think a bit about it, the Harpers didn't necessarily want Charname dead, because Charname was the only Bhaalspawn they had in control, to some extent. The Harpers (or even just Gorion+Elminster) didn't want Bhaal to resurrect, because he is an evil god. The best way to do that was to educate a Bhaalspawn into being a force for good, or at least attempt to.
But really the ToB-added part of the prophecy about some chosen one rising above the others feels like a justification without which ToB wouldn't exist, and there might have been some better ways of writing ToB, but remember the practical point of view: there was one year between each of the BG games/expansions. That's a short timing to make a perfect game that's coherent on every single aspect and detail.
For example, I have currently EET and its mods installed, and it provides really interesting aspects on a number of issues that are often considered controversal. Often the question is, what is truth and what is (intentionally) lies to make the actors perform as they do. And the second question is, when something is a lie, who spreads it and what are the intentions behind it. Those mods are not canon and they don't spoil the game with answers, but digging into it is a lot of fun.
Many of those issues you discussed on your various topics recently are actually subject of the Sandrah mod. Many of the hints and details I found are highlighted by the various quests and side plots of that mod. the author obviously knows the trilogy quite well and is not afraid to pick up those issues. However, the only way to play that mod is with an EET install. But be warned: the mod is certainly non-canon in the way that it only considers information that exists inside the game itself, e.g. the Drizzt there is the game's own Drizzt and not some figure from some novel that other players may have read. Also there is no consideration of Bhaal ever returning just because some other game or novel or whatever has such content.