Qwinns Karachblade fix shouldn't be included! (Spoilers)

karl_maulder

I didn't know that Beamdog decided to include (or forgot to exclude) this fixpack since they said, that only the bugfixes would be implemented into P:T:EE. Needless to say when i first noticed it, i thought it was a bug.
I can understand why Qwinn decided to change the upgrade, since having the streaming blade (original), in some ways (powergaming ways) are kind of unfulfilling. However, if you look at it at a bigger perspective, the orignal idea (i presume) was to make three different blades, of which all of them had both pros and cons, which reflects the zerthimon philosophy (Balance in all things); and can be made in to a damage dealing weapon, defending weapon, or a mage weapon. Adding all those bonuses into one weapon, feels very, or actually extremely cheesy, and doesn't reflect the original idea about it at all.

Also, does this mean that the Kinstealer now has the lowest damage value, or does the streaming blade just take all good things, without adding any bads? Thinking about reporting this as a bug.

AndreaColombo

Hi @karl_maulder ,

I haven't yet reached a point in the game where Dak'kon's blade upgrades, so I have to ask: You got the Streaming Blade (which is what most player normally get) and it is significantly better in the Enhanced Edition than it was in the original game?

Teflon

Yeah it is really hard for me to being harsh on dakkon so I always got streaming blade but your words makes me to want to find out what is kinstealer's ability on enhanced edition.

Queegon

Basically in vanilla the evil one dealt most damage, helped little in regard to spells and AC, neutral helped little with spells and gave the most AC, good was a great help for spellcasting Dak'kon and confered less AC than neutral.
Qwinn's fixpack made the sword basically go from poop evil to ok neutral to best good.
Despite beamdog saying they did everything to keep up with original this slipped as it wasn't part of the original game.

Queegon

Original values present in PS:T:

Low Morale: "Kinstealer": 6-24 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +2 AC, double 1st level spells.
Mid Morale: "Chained": 5-20 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +6 AC, double 1st and 2nd level spells
High Morale: "Streaming": 5-20 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +3 AC, double 1st and 2nd level spells, 1 additional 3rd level spell

EE values (taken from Qwinn's fixpack):
Kinstealer: same
Chained: +3 AC
Streaming: +6 AC

GawainBS

It builds on Dak'kon morale, not your alignment. The blade is not about being "evil" or "good", but about how much in tune with himself that Dak'kon feels. I can imagine that him being treated respectfully helps in that regards. Atleast, that's how I always interpretted that interaction.

karl_maulder

@GawainBS Depends. If you're saying that the karachblade should get better, depending on his morale, i have to disagree. Like you said the krachblade is in tune with Dak'kon, and i would even suggest that it has lots of similarities jediknights. Just because dak'kons morale is bad (sith), shouldn't mean his powers weakens, compared to if it's balanced (gray), or very high (jedi). More of all, they (the upgrades) reflect Dak'kons progress in his different classes.

So Qwinns fixpack changed the fundamental idea about the Karachblade upgrades (how the developer wanted the upgrades to work), from being viable at all morale levels, to giving more power the higher your morale gets. It's a fanmade change, that shouldn't be there in the first place.

kjeron

karl_maulder said:

@GawainBS Depends. If you're saying that the karachblade should get better, depending on his morale, i have to disagree. Like you said the krachblade is in tune with Dak'kon, and i would even suggest that it has lots of similarities jediknights. Just because dak'kons morale is bad (sith), shouldn't mean his powers weakens, compared to if it's balanced (gray), or very high (jedi). More of all, they (the upgrades) reflect Dak'kons progress in his different classes.

I think you are confusing moral with morale.

Queegon

What I would do (as a first draft) and is prone to discussion and fine-tuning first:
Kinstealer 6-24, +3 AC, + 2 lvl 1 spells, + 1 lvl 2 spell (cloudy mind and suppressed hate)
Chained 5-20 +5 AC, double lv 1 spells, +2 lvl 2 spells (balance in all things)
Streaming 4-16, +3 AC, double lv 1, double lv 2, +3 lvl 3 spells (eyes opened, mind clear)

Problem is unlocking Zerthimon's circle and maxing Dak's morale that way. So to get neutral/bad morale blade you help him (even lawful evil TNO would help him decipher the circle to follow his own ulterior motives or chaotic evil TNO would help him only to strike him down later because it's fun and whatever) but then you must be a complete dick to him because Dak can't read between the lines and genuinely thinks you are his buddy now.
His weapon is the strongest thing in the PS:T setting (and the reason practical incarnation saved him after all) and now it wouldn't be a no-brainer. Thing is justify being a total ass when playing a lawful good char wanting his kinstealer. :P

Teflon

I am disppointed that fixpack does not change description of affected items, streaming blade still says ac bonus of 2.

Queegon

@Teflon That is correct, +2 AC streaming blade is only the second form. You need to feed it Rare Candies so it can evolve to stage 2 Swordémon.

GawainBS

kjeron said:

karl_maulder said:

@GawainBS Depends. If you're saying that the karachblade should get better, depending on his morale, i have to disagree. Like you said the krachblade is in tune with Dak'kon, and i would even suggest that it has lots of similarities jediknights. Just because dak'kons morale is bad (sith), shouldn't mean his powers weakens, compared to if it's balanced (gray), or very high (jedi). More of all, they (the upgrades) reflect Dak'kons progress in his different classes.

I think you are confusing moral with morale.

Exactly. I'm looking at this from the perspective how appreciated Dak'kon feels by TNO, or given that TNO, for example, helps him to understand the Unbroken Circle, hence making Dak'kon a better warrior-philosopher. Compare it to Dak'kon getting better stats after understanding the Circle. It's not so much that his alignment shifts (Dak'kon basicly cares about honour in that sense that he has to adhere to his philosophy), but that he gets a better sense of purpose.
Since the blade is meant to reflect his inner turmoil/tranquility, it only makes sense that the blade gets better if Dak'kon feels better.
Also note that Dak'kon's morale (with an -e) can be very high with a thoroughly evil TNO.

Your Jedi/Sith analogy misses the point, since they are about moral (without an -e), i.e. "good" and "evil" choices, especially in the context of The Planes.

GrimLefourbe

The Practical Incarnation made the Circle so it could give confidence to Dak'kon because his blade could "slay the multiverse". It seems very logical that going through the circle (increasing morale) would make the blade stronger in every aspect. A low morale for Dak'kon represents how unsure he is, not how hateful of TNO he is.

It could be interesting to have an alternative where you could fuel Dak'kon with anger to give him stability of mind but that's not what the game has.

Lorandar

The numbers given above are not consistent with the blade Dak'kon currently has in my game, which is:
3-12 damage, +4 AC, doubles 1st level mage spell slots, one additional 2nd level slot.

Can someone indicate which events or parameters are important for further 'evolution'?
In my current game the Pronouncement of Two Deaths as One has been made, and Dak'kon is level 7/7 (currently in Lower Ward).

Thanks!

GawainBS

It also depends on Dak'kon's level. For most, if not all, PS:T numbers, refer to Dan Simpson's near-perfect walkthrough over at GameFAQs.

bob_veng

can someone format this issue like a formal bug (regardless of whether it should really be treated as a bug) report as in the old days. i'm not quite convinced that there's an issue

karl_maulder

@GawainBS My comparison of the karachblade and the jedis are pretty good actually, since how they're using the force isn't just about ethics, what's good and bad, but also reflect their emotional balance from unstable (sith) to stable (jedis). The original idea was to give Dak'kon different powers depending on his morale, agressive behaviour - damage dealing, his original state - lower AC, and knowledgeable - a better mage.
Although it's somewhat off topic, if you look at it at a holistic aswell as an ethical perspective, there is no such thing that suggest that Dak'kon being more positive automatically will lead him to become better at everything. Circumstances, seeing things from different views, working hard, and learning from our misstakes makes us develop. But i agree on most of what you've written.

@bob_veng I've already submitted it as a bug.

bob_veng

could you explain it a bit more, i don't understand what's exactly wrong (srsly)

GrimLefourbe

According to the torment wikia, Dak'kon's blade had the following stats at lvl 10+ in the original:
Chained:
Damage: 5-20 slashing
Effects: enchanted +3, +6 AC, THAC0 +3
Special: doubles all level 1 and 2 mage spells
Speed: 6
Streaming:
Damage: 5-20 slashing
Effects: enchanted +3, +3 AC, THAC0 +3
Special: doubles all 1st level mage spells, doubles all 2nd level mage spells, memorize 1 additional 3rd level mage spell
Speed: 6
Kinstealer:
Damage: 6-24 slashing
Effects: enchanted +3, +2 AC, THAC0 +3
Special: double 1st level spells memorized
Speed: 6

In PST:EE, the blade's AC numbers are swapped for the Chained and the Streaming blade. (Chained has 3, Streaming has 6)

Some think this is wrong because the blade was meant(according to them) to have 3 states with their advantages and disadvantages.
Others think this is right because the blade is supposed(according to them) to be stronger when Dak'kon's morale is at its highest.

GawainBS

karl_maulder said:

@GawainBS My comparison of the karachblade and the jedis are pretty good actually, since how they're using the force isn't just about ethics, what's good and bad, but also reflect their emotional balance from unstable (sith) to stable (jedis). The original idea was to give Dak'kon different powers depending on his morale, agressive behaviour - damage dealing, his original state - lower AC, and knowledgeable - a better mage.
Although it's somewhat off topic, if you look at it at a holistic aswell as an ethical perspective, there is no such thing that suggest that Dak'kon being more positive automatically will lead him to become better at everything. Circumstances, seeing things from different views, working hard, and learning from our misstakes makes us develop. But i agree on most of what you've written.

I think you're confusing things by equating Dark Side = Sith. One can be a Dark Side user without being a Sith. Also, I don't think that Sith are unstable by definition. Palpatine seemed to be a very stable and wise person. But those are Star Wars semantics.

I still think that Qwinn had the right end of it, but you make a decent case for what the blades can represent, though.

Dee

There's another side of it, too, which is that if the weapon is objectively better with high morale, that creates a "correct choice" paradigm with regard to your interactions with him. If they each have their advantages and disadvantages, then all choices are correct and you can play your character how you like.

That's a different question from "was it how they originally intended it to work," though, to which I suspect the answer is "no." If Chris Avellone was involved, you can be sure he had a hand in deciding whether this bug fix was appropriate or not.

YHCMV, though (Your Head Canon May Vary)

GrimLefourbe

There are a number of "correct" choices in Torment, I don't think that's really a concern in the game.(Old Mebbeth's stat bonus anyone?) Not every path leads to similar rewards and PST makes it clear.

Dee

True, and there are also ambiguous choices meant to make you think more than trick you into being a good guy (or not). It's not bad design to include one "right" option, just as it's not automatically good design to include none (or several).

In the context of the characters in your party, the paradigm seems to favor good behavior with combat rewards, and bad behavior with entertaining banter. Which seems to support the fix being discussed here.

bob_veng

sheesh dunno
i'm generally pro-change but the difference among blades now looks arbitrary

at least now the two non-best blades should be equally good and they are not because kinstealer appears better (lvl 2 slots - objectively and subjectively meh)

also, shouldn't now the best version have all the best stats? thematically, streaming blade should then also be 6-24!

all in all, pretty problematic

GawainBS

Dee said:

There's another side of it, too, which is that if the weapon is objectively better with high morale, that creates a "correct choice" paradigm with regard to your interactions with him. If they each have their advantages and disadvantages, then all choices are correct and you can play your character how you like.

That's a different question from "was it how they originally intended it to work," though, to which I suspect the answer is "no." If Chris Avellone was involved, you can be sure he had a hand in deciding whether this bug fix was appropriate or not.

YHCMV, though (Your Head Canon May Vary)

Given the reason why TNO sought out Dak'kon in the first place, it makes pretty much sense that there is a "best" choice. His earlier incarnations didn't exactly treat Dak'kon with a lot of respect and perhaps Dak'kon's state of mind and resulting "lesser" blade contributed to that incarnation's failure. Granted, this is conjecture.

karl_maulder

Dee said:

In the context of the characters in your party, the paradigm seems to favor good behavior with combat rewards, and bad behavior with entertaining banter. Which seems to support the fix being discussed here.

But you seem to base this argument on Qwinns mod (being lawful and lawful good get's you most rewards, so therefor it should apply to the blade aswell), instead of what the original developers had in mind. Also, some rewards make you evil (stat increases at Ravel). Also, didn't beamdog say they wouldn't change anything from the original game?

Sure, some fixes could be made, as an example, adding 10% criticle hit to the kinstealer blade, and decreasing min and max damage for the streaming blade by 2, yet adding more 3rd level spells.

Dee

Chris Avellone was project lead. If this fix was included, it came with his approval. And he's one of those original developers.

bob_veng

it's possible it slipped

Queegon

I agree with either option above. Both are possible, Beamdog adopted most, if not all, of Qwinn's fixpack. This was part of it, right?

GawainBS

Queegon said:

I agree with either option above. Both are possible, Beamdog adopted most, if not all, of Qwinn's fixpack. This was part of it, right?

It was part of it, yes. I seem to recall that in my original playthrough (the original 4 disc edition), the blade didn't mutate at all...

karl_maulder

@GawainBS In the original game Dak'kons blade seldom changed at all due though a bug, that reset Dak'kons moral every 8 (ingame) hours. When Qwinn released his first fix pack, it didn't only fix this bug but changed the streaming blade to get all the benefits of the kinstealer and the chained blade (6-24 damage, +6 AC). This however was later changed to what it is now (+6AC) due to heavy criticism from the community that thought it was owerpowered.