Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Qwinns Karachblade fix shouldn't be included! (Spoilers)

2»

Comments

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307
    edited April 2017
    ahh that explains it. well you see, the first change he made, before the revision, was much better.

    if we have a happiest dak'kon and a best blade in a correct choice paradigm as dee put it, then it should precisely have all the best stats of other two blades.

    or - it's much more relative and how powerful the blade is doesn't really depend on the state of dak'kon (edit: but has something more to do with you, or his connection with you)! then all the blades/choices are balanced to each other

    both of those are super acceptable. the "correct paradigm" might be more fitting because the original free choice might actually be a bit overengineered (over-mechanical) and not fit the theme - intuitively there should be a best blade if the dialogue makes you feel you've done the biggest service to dak'kon

    but the revision he made to make it 5-20 again and the current neither-here-nor-there state is an abomination. quinn probably did it under pressure

    okay i've "decided" - it's an oversight. i'm 99.9% sure that avellone didn't approve this.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • fkirenicusfkirenicus Member Posts: 331
    chimaera said:

    Dee said:


    That's a different question from "was it how they originally intended it to work," though, to which I suspect the answer is "no." If Chris Avellone was involved, you can be sure he had a hand in deciding whether this bug fix was appropriate or not.

    The voting poll about these sword changes (from the original fixpack) on the shs forums is still there:
    http://www.shsforums.net/topic/36352-poll-dakkons-zerth-blade-changes/
    If you read the discussion there, it leaves the impression that these changes are indeed the modders personal 'head canon', and not a simple bugfix.
    I think perhaps that some overlook a very important point mentioned in that post:

    "Dak'kon's blade is supposed to be as powerful as Dak'kon's sense of *knowing* himself."

    Thus it makes sense (at least to me) that the most powerful version of the blade (though perhaps not in combat DAMAGE) is when he is at higher morale ratings.
    Just my 2 cents, as they say...

    Queegon
  • karl_maulderkarl_maulder Member Posts: 133
    Well you could also look at it like this:
    Chained blade:
    5-20 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +6 AC, double 1st and 2nd level spells
    Streaming blade: 5-20 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +3 AC (+4 AC with 18 dex), double 1st and 2nd level spells, 1 additional 3rd level spell, +1 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con.
    Meaning you can pick the chained blade for +2 AC, or the streaming blade for one more 3rd level spell, +1 str, and +2 Con.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307
    edited April 2017
    double post (sorry)

    Post edited by bob_veng on
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307
    edited April 2017

    chimaera said:

    Dee said:


    That's a different question from "was it how they originally intended it to work," though, to which I suspect the answer is "no." If Chris Avellone was involved, you can be sure he had a hand in deciding whether this bug fix was appropriate or not.

    The voting poll about these sword changes (from the original fixpack) on the shs forums is still there:
    http://www.shsforums.net/topic/36352-poll-dakkons-zerth-blade-changes/
    If you read the discussion there, it leaves the impression that these changes are indeed the modders personal 'head canon', and not a simple bugfix.
    I think perhaps that some overlook a very important point mentioned in that post:

    "Dak'kon's blade is supposed to be as powerful as Dak'kon's sense of *knowing* himself."

    Thus it makes sense (at least to me) that the most powerful version of the blade (though perhaps not in combat DAMAGE) is when he is at higher morale ratings.
    Just my 2 cents, as they say...
    it makes sense but the question is not that, but whether it's the only thing that makes sense

    why wouldn't it make sense that
    - a more frustrated dak'kon would funnel his existential anguish into a more damaging, aggressive-themed blade
    - that a relatively at-peace dak'kon with a such-is-life attitude would manifest this as a more defensive mode which would affect the blade in such a way
    - that an enlightened-feeling dak'kon would channel this newfound inner peace and focus into a more casting-oriented weapon (spells are about focus)

    this also makes perfect sense.

    so both paradigms make sense (best choice and free choice), the question is, what was the original intent or what would've been the original intent had morale been working. is it unlikely that free choice would have been the original intent? it's not unlikely! (i think this is apparent)
    it comes down to personal preference too much (and i'm not big on personal preference on most other things)

    edit: grammer

    Post edited by bob_veng on
    Dee
  • fkirenicusfkirenicus Member Posts: 331
    edited April 2017
    bob_veng said:

    chimaera said:

    Dee said:


    That's a different question from "was it how they originally intended it to work," though, to which I suspect the answer is "no." If Chris Avellone was involved, you can be sure he had a hand in deciding whether this bug fix was appropriate or not.

    The voting poll about these sword changes (from the original fixpack) on the shs forums is still there:
    http://www.shsforums.net/topic/36352-poll-dakkons-zerth-blade-changes/
    If you read the discussion there, it leaves the impression that these changes are indeed the modders personal 'head canon', and not a simple bugfix.
    I think perhaps that some overlook a very important point mentioned in that post:

    "Dak'kon's blade is supposed to be as powerful as Dak'kon's sense of *knowing* himself."

    Thus it makes sense (at least to me) that the most powerful version of the blade (though perhaps not in combat DAMAGE) is when he is at higher morale ratings.
    Just my 2 cents, as they say...
    it makes sense but the question is not that, but whether it's the only thing that makes sense

    why wouldn't it make sense that
    - a more frustrated dak'kon would funnel his existential anguish into a more damaging, aggressive-themed blade
    - that a relatively at-peace dak'kon with a such-is-life attitude would manifest this as a more defensive mode which would affect the blade in such a way
    - that an enlightened-feeling dak'kon would channel this newfound inner peace and focus into a more casting-oriented weapon (spells are about focus)

    this also makes perfect sense.

    so both paradigms make sense (best choice and free choice), the question is, what was the original intent or what would be the original intent had morale been working. is it unlikely that free choice would be the original intent? it's not unlikely! (i think this is apparent)
    it comes down to personal preference too much (and i'm not big on personal preference on most other things)
    Descriptions from the game, taken from
    http://www.ign.com/faqs/2002/planescape-torment-items-listing-372499

    I think this shows that Streaming Blade is/should be the most powerful, because Dak'kon like most other creatures both in fantasy worlds and the real world perform best when their morale is good.

    "Kinstealer":
    A substance called "karach" is a material that can be shaped with the mind.
    Dak'kon's blade is composed of this substance; through mental discipline alone,
    Dak'kon maintains the integrity of the blade. When the spirit and discipline of
    the user begin to falter, the blade itself will react, mirroring the wielder's
    thoughts.

    Dak'kon must be suffering indeed, for his karach blade has become a dead flat
    black, mirroring Dak'kon's eyes. It has become longer, sharper, and a series of
    subtle jags, like teeth, now line the edge of the blade.

    "Chained Blade":
    A substance called "karach" is a material that can be shaped with the mind.
    Dak'kon's blade is composed of this substance; through mental discipline alone,
    Dak'kon maintains the integrity of the blade. He can shape it slightly
    depending on his skill, adjusting its length, sharpness of the edge. Presumably
    as he gains levels, he may be able to manipulate the blade in new ways.

    It is not known whether all githzerai zerth carry such weapons. Certainly a
    weapon that depends on the integrity of the wielder would be entrusted only to
    those who had learned to discipline themselves.

    "Streaming Blade":
    A substance called "karach" is a material that can be shaped with the mind.
    Dak'kon's blade is composed of this substance; through mental discipline alone,
    Dak'kon maintains the integrity of the blade. When the user's spirit is
    focused, his mind clear of doubts and devoted to a single purpose, the blade
    itself will react, mirroring the wielder's thoughts.

    If so, Dak'kon's mind must be clear, indeed, for his blade has become a
    brilliant silver. It seems as if the blade has become longer than when you
    first saw it, and there is no trace of the strange shimmering surface it once
    had. The edge of the blade tapers almost to a paper-thin line - despite its
    flimsy appearance, it looks like it could cut through chain armor with ease.


    HENCE:
    Kinstealer: should do most damage. Perhaps the other versions do too much damage; let's say the other versions should just 4-16 or 3-18 damage at the highest tier (level 10+).
    Chained? Uncertain. There is nothing in the description that states anything about Dak'kons views of himself or the world around him. Perhaps this should have been the "weakest" version in that sense.
    Streaming: should have highest to hit and defensive capabilities. And as you say, since his focus is heightened, he should have more spells. So maybe this blade variant should have been the only one to get additional spells?

    Thus, my 2 cents continued:
    "Low Morale: "Kinstealer": 6-24 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +2 AC, double 1st level spells.
    Mid Morale: "Chained": 5-20 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +4 AC, double 1st and 2nd level spells
    High Morale: "Streaming": 5-20 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +6 AC, double 1st and 2nd level spells, 1 additional 3rd level spell"

    (taken from http://www.shsforums.net/topic/36352-poll-dakkons-zerth-blade-changes/)

    Or, as I would have considered making it if I were to mod this (again, this would be at the top tier for each blade version):
    "Low Morale: "Kinstealer": 6-24 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +3 AC (, double 1st level spells OR: increased damage bonus of some sort, e.g. piercing?).
    Mid Morale: "Chained": 5-20 Slashing, +3 To Hit, +3 AC (, double 1st level spells and 2 additional 2nd level spells)
    High Morale: "Streaming": 4-16 Slashing, +5 To Hit, +5 AC, double 1st and 2nd level spells, 1 additional 3rd level spell".

  • karl_maulderkarl_maulder Member Posts: 133
    edited April 2017
    But if the streaming blade truly is the ultimate form, shouldn't it deal 6-24 damage? Correct me if i'm wrong, but being supportive isn't enough to change the blade, you need high INT for one dialogue, and also teach Dak'kon the eight circle, meaning he can be happy, yet unaware of the history of his people?

    But sure, it could also have been a deliberatly choice by the developers to avoid granting the good path to good a reward, and thus encourage players to pick the right choice, since they already get a stats upgrade.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307
    @fkirenicus
    you said: "Kinstealer: should do most damage."

    no. disagreed 100% that you can conclude this based on the description. the quality of the edge is especially emphasised for the streaming blade (as well as somewhat for kinstealer, but the mentioned serrations don't unequivocally create a picture of a more potent slashing weapon) - so should the streaming blade be the most damaging? it is neither so in the original or the EE so it won't be happening either way, but if quinn had originally made it the most damaging, as someone said, i understand his choice and i must criticize the later revision as unfounded.

    "let's say the other versions should just 4-16 or 3-18 damage at the highest tier (level 10+)."

    nopes. just your unsubstantiated preference (don't want to be rude, just setting things straight)

    "Chained? Uncertain. There is nothing in the description that states anything about Dak'kons views of himself or the world around him. Perhaps this should have been the "weakest" version in that sense."

    perhaps. but since neither PS:T nor PS:TEE makes it declaredly the weakest version (whether it functionally currently is is a personal matter) this is technically off the table. irrelevant, sorry.

    "Streaming: should have highest to hit and defensive capabilities. And as you say, since his focus is heightened, he should have more spells. So maybe this blade variant should have been the only one to get additional spells?"

    why highest defensive capabilities?
    why not superior damage (as mentioned above)?
    also, since it's not the only blade to get additional spells in neither version of the game, that original idea is also off the table. so i'm not sharing your view and i hate to be dismissive, but you're not being relevant and strict enough in reasoning.

    about what you would mod: this topic is not about this. it's about whether an inclusion of a really debatable certain third party alteration is what avellone (it comes down to him and no one else) wanted, or is this something that slipped by. some people justifiably believe that it slipped by and someone has even reported it as a bug (if it had slipped by it actually is a bug). some other may also justifiably believe that it was intentional. but it comes down to what were the original stats and what the new stats are. third option considerations have realistically zero chance to come through.

  • DoubledimasDoubledimas Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,285
    @JuliusBorisov Could you perhaps clarify if this is something that has been discussed with Chris/during the examination of the Qwinn fixpack?

  • fkirenicusfkirenicus Member Posts: 331
    bob_veng said:



    nopes. just your unsubstantiated preference (don't want to be rude, just setting things straight)

    One might argue so are your views: "unsubstantiated preferences".
    "Don't want to be rude", indeed... :smile:
    Since it's quite clear you are not here to discuss but berate, I'll think I'll leave it at that.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,917
    There's a bug reported - Dak'kons Karachblade upgrades having wrong values, it's been copied internally:

    http://support.baldursgate.com/issues/30687

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,307

    bob_veng said:



    nopes. just your unsubstantiated preference (don't want to be rude, just setting things straight)

    One might argue so are your views: "unsubstantiated preferences".
    "Don't want to be rude", indeed... :smile:
    Since it's quite clear you are not here to discuss but berate, I'll think I'll leave it at that.

    i'm not showing any preferences, unsubstantiated or not. i'm just critically arguing that the currently existing change to the original (which puts forth a whole different c&c paradigm, but also does so inconsequently) does not appear to be something which was originally intended but got botched because of then-malfunctioning dak'kon morale. i'm absolutely not berating you personally, sorry you got that impression. this should really not become a hot topic because it's not a big deal but "bug or intended?" discussions often become a bit unpleasant

    [rant] when people who like and defend an existing state see that what they consider normal is being called a bug or a design error and that thing is about to get corrected, things get personal & political because it's like the other side persuaded the devs to do something to their detriment, that their views are less valued etc. it's always the same... [/rant]

    karl_maulder
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • fkirenicusfkirenicus Member Posts: 331
    edited May 2017
    I suggest that those who haven't done so carefully read the final dialog with Practical - his plan was that Dak'kon should (feel he knew/ ) know himself; thus the streaming blade IS the best - because that's what Dak'kon himself has been striving for all these years: to *know* himself and words of Zerthimon again.

    Post edited by fkirenicus on
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    @fkirenicus that makes sense if we assume the practical incarnation is correct. But for all his vaunted practicality, he did mess up in some pretty important ways. It's entirely possible that he was just wrong about what would make the strongest karach blade.

  • fkirenicusfkirenicus Member Posts: 331
    edited May 2017
    Yes, my point exactly - he made the circle so that Dak'kon should *know* himself. But he missed the point - and so the circle actually resulted in the opposite of what he intended.
    That's characteristic for Practical - he THINKS he knows, or has control or every option covered - but as Morte points out, he was wrong. For he saw only his own goals, and was blind to everything else. And that led to his downfall. Unfortunately he dragged everyone around him down with him.

Sign In or Register to comment.