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Shapeshifter THAC0 Bug?

I was testing out a Shapeshifter today. Straight out of Candlekeep and into werewolf form gives my druid 21 THAC0 for reasons I can't figure out. The base is 20, and he's getting +1 from strength, and +1 more from exceptional strength. Then a big fat +3 to THAC0 that just says "proficiencies" as though he's using a weapon he's not familiar with.

Unequipping and re-equipping the token drops it down to 18 until I leave the inventory screen. Opening the inventory back up shoots it back to 21.

What gives?

Comments

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262
    "the token"? Are you using a mod? If so, I would check with the mod's creator. It sounds like they forgot to set the proficiency of the werewolf's natural weapon to "none".
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    To get only a +2 from strength there would have to be some mod in play. That's below a 19 strength the base game gives you which would net a +3 total in strength modifiers.
    Tresset
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262
    @fateless obvious now that you point this out to me... The "+1 more from exceptional strength" would only happen if strength was 18/##.
  • AndrewKellyAndrewKelly Member Posts: 16
    The only mod I have installed is SCS. To my recollection, none of the options I selected when installing had anything to do with the Shapeshifter.

    Is the werewolf form ability not supposed to create a token you equip to change form in the unmodded game?

    Also, is the unmodded game supposed to give the werewolf form 19 strength? I don't have the game open, but the form only gave my druid 18/xx strength, for a total of +2 bonus THACO.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262

    Is the werewolf form ability not supposed to create a token you equip to change form in the unmodded game?

    No, that is definitely a mod thing. I'm assuming that this is a bug with the improved shapeshifting component of SCS. From what I have heard that component does the shapeshifting with the tokens.
  • AndrewKellyAndrewKelly Member Posts: 16
    Ahh. Thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize SCS was causing this. I must've glossed over the improved shapeshifting component while installing.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    edited May 2017
    That component and some others is partly why I'm wary of SCS. That and I don't know how it's all bundled together and with my limited time to actually play. (I can glance at forums throughout the day from my phone at work). I don't want to have to take my time slowly dissecting it and testing it to make sure something I don't want isn't bundled with things I'm ok with. And there are some different parts of that mod that I do consider much more than just AI and encounter tweaks. I consider it a full on rebalancing mod at this point disguised as a tactical AI mod.

    Edit: From what little I have looked at it and what you describe here. SCS chose to use a shapeshifter "rebalancing" mod that was out for a long time. And one of it's features that a lot of people raved about was the ability that wasn't entirely intended by the original modder that you could in effect unequip the mods and equip in your normal weapons with all of the werewolf forms other advantages. To be fair for a long time it was kind of the most middle of the road and decent one unless you were really just looking for an over the top monster form you could play that would decimate most things. But it did have it's exploitable cheesiness.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262
    @AndrewKelly I went to the trouble of installing SCS on my game and I found out that all the tokens have a proficiency of Dagger. I can edit the tokens for you to remove this erroneous proficiency if you want. I am unsure if this bug is already fixed or not with the big world setup thing as I don't personally use it (my own modding skill is capable enough that I don't need it).
    JuliusBorisov
  • AndrewKellyAndrewKelly Member Posts: 16
    edited May 2017
    Good to know. Thank you for the clarification.

    To the above poster wary of SCS -- don't be. I love it. It's not at all daunting to install, and only takes a few minutes to select the installation options. I do recall the "improved shapeshifting" option, which I apparently selected, but now, I'm not so sure it's improved the Shapeshifter!

    The AI mods, better calls for help, pre-buffed casters, potion using enemies -- it all makes the game challenging. I've played through the saga many times on "insane" mode, and I found that to be less and less challenging each time.

    As many have echoed before, once you play with the SCS AI, you won't want to go back.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    edited May 2017
    The AI stuff I'm mostly ok with it. much of the rebalancing stuff like moving items. Class Changes. Things like that that I don't care for. And at this point it reads as basically a rebalancing mod. i'm not worried about it being hard to install. More about having to deal with components I really don't want. and even more having them bundled with components that I really do. I'm particular about that kind of thing. I don't agree with some of the rebalancing choices quite honestly. Shape Shifter being a rebalancing choice I'm picky about as well. i did find a mod that for the most part does what I was looking for without adding to much and I use that at this point.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859

    To the above poster wary of SCS -- don't be. I love it. It's not at all daunting to install, and only takes a few minutes to select the installation options. I do recall the "improved shapeshifting" option, which I apparently selected, but now, I'm not so sure it's improved the Shapeshifter!

    The paw tokens are a major, major improvement for the Shapeshifter. They let you switch forms without using up your "aura" for the round, which means you can be a werewolf, immediately shift to human, cast a spell, then immediately shift back to wolf form. For a vanilla werewolf you would spend a round shifting back to human, spend a round casting your spell, then spend another round shifting back, so it's taking 2-3 rounds what you can now do in 1.

    (Not to mention that the vanilla shapeshifter has a limited number of shifts per day, so shifting to human and then shifting back often wouldn't even be an option. Basically, vanilla shapeshifters were locked out of spellcasting other than prebuffs.)

    As I understand it, the SCS shapeshifter improvement is inspired by Weimar's mod but doesn't copy some of the other improvements he granted, like immunity to normal weapons, that made shapeshifters disgustingly, brokenly OP. That's good, because I really love the paw-shift idea, but I can't play Weimar's mod because it essentially turns wolf form into god mode.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,524
    @Tresset - Could you share the WeiDU code you use to remove the dagger proficiency from the tokens?
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
    SomeSort
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,305
    SCS adds the dagger proficiency at the point that the token is equipped, so you don't lose THAC0 as a result of shifting - if that's not working for you then you might have an old version or an installation problem. The reason that strength is less than 19 is that the shift at level 1-6 is to a lesser werewolf - you get a werewolf upgrade at level 7 with strength 19 along with other improvements (and from memory you then get the greater werewolf at level 13).
    AndreaColomboTressetJuliusBorisov
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,262
    @Grond0 Huh... I didn't notice that. My little fix should not be needed then...
    Grond0
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    Wiemar's mod wasn't even the most over the top either for this kind of thing. I remember one that would beat dragons to death solo because of it's regeneration factor and such for example.

    But how much was too much was often a heated debate for a long time on a few different mod forums. Casting while shape changed was part of that discussion. some wanted it. some thought it was way too much.

    do keep in mind however as a side note that single weapon style works with many of the mod versions and i believe the vanilla version of the shape shifter claws. getting you increased crit range and 1 better AC.
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