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"Best" Good Party Mage ?

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Comments

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,327
    @Zaghoul

    "So I'm curious here, apart from stats, power, etc. who do people like as the best mage on a personality lvl?"

    Edwin.

    But I don't think you can seperate personality from stats so clearly. Or rather, seperate how a player reacts to a NPC personality.
    If Edwin wasn't the best mage in game with the highest inteligence, I doubt there would be quite so many fics written featuring him. Or as much forgiveness for his bad personality traits.

    That's why IMO, Edwin is one of the best NPC's in the game because as a whole, everything fits and is coherent. Though the low dexterity is a mistake.

    Whereas Imoen, who I dislike, doesn't match her stats at all. You don't get any sense of her being intelligent in the first game.
    Quite happy to be pushed to the side, grows up in the most famous library in the setting yet never bothered to study?
    Pretends she's some kind of guttersnipe?

    The character when you read those stats is all over the place. It's as if there was never a writer who looked at the character and their stats.
    Wandering_Rangertbone1
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,039
    edited May 28

    Whereas Imoen, who I dislike, doesn't match her stats at all. You don't get any sense of her being intelligent in the first game.
    Quite happy to be pushed to the side, grows up in the most famous library in the setting yet never bothered to study?
    Pretends she's some kind of guttersnipe?

    The character when you read those stats is all over the place. It's as if there was never a writer who looked at the character and their stats.

    Since Imoen was a last-minute addition whose voice set was cobbled from a demo character, I can almost guarantee it.

    And it's funny, as I now bounce back and forth between my iPad and computer, how much difference the banters in the BG1NPC mod make. The first game is so un-chatty that it seems odd, though let's remember that when the game came out in '98 or '99 it was breath-taking and revolutionary in many ways.


    Post edited by tbone1 on
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,598
    @UnderstandMouseMagic Interesting point and a fair point. I just tend to go with the ones that match a certain CHARNAME's personality and background for that particular run, these days for me, I go for that first. Stats a distant... somethng. Edwin just never seems to match any run for me in that sense I reckon. B) He is a well developed character, but still, I can't help myself from givin him one across the lip, the snooty Thayan that he is.

    As to Immy, maybe she's just a genius that hates all that history and lore crap, hehheh. Kinda like one of those folks ya meet that's really smart but doesn't want or can't apply it the normal sense, and just does whatever they feel like at the time. Seems like it sometimes
    I thought BGNPC project helped a bit with her,I thought, still don't take her though. Same thing, rarely a match for any run I've done, and leaves when rep gets low, even though she says she'll stick by no matter what, or her background hints that anyway.

    Stats can make a difference to some though, I'll agree,
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,327
    @Zaghoul

    I would have enjoyed Imoen if she followed the "Hermione" characterisation. Best friend, can always rely on them and gives you valuable perspective/insight.
    Somebody who doesn't confuse having a favourite colour (the whole pink thing) with having a personality.

    So when you meet J and K, right at the beginning, instead of over friendly, I'm so cute, you got more reserved, lets think about this a bit.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    I might be. I used to have a lot of content edition mods at different times so I may remember a few of them instead. I only used tactics and oversight really for difficulty increases.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 519
    edited July 28
    @UnderstandMouseMagic re "[The whole pink thing]

    Playing with Imoen I always change her Major color to Teal Blue-Green. Makes a big difference.

    Mostly agree that Imoen as she actually is in the game does not even approach the huge RP significance she assumes in experiencing the BG story as Charname is encountering it. I definitely tend to invest a lot in the story of BG1 and get more Power-gamish in BG2. The whole Imoen thing in BG2 is like, who needs THIS??

    Someone ought to make a Mod where Garrick has developed at some point an undying crush on Imoen and turns up in the confrontation with Yoshimo. Alas, Sweet Garrick dies gallantly, the noble Bard of legend, saving Imoen and the party from an unspeakable doom. Might make both of them more interesting RP choices!!
    tbone1
  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 202
    Yeah. Imoen is crucial to the game for me. When I try to put myself in the Scion's perspective, Imoen is simply vital. Everything the Scion has ever known, all the peace, all the family, all the happiness, was wiped out when the Fire Nation Sarevok attacked, and the only spark of it that survived was this plucky girl who has your back no matter what. She's a thief (and an archer at that) when you need one, and statted so she can be a mage when those start to matter as well, making her a worthwhile recruit.

    Then the games happen. You're left standing over the corpse of your foster father, with nobody to stand beside you but the chirpy little kid sister who abandoned her own home to stay by your side. And then your character goes through hell. And then to hell. And then through hell again. And then back to hell again. And then the mortal world becomes such hell that hell itself becomes a nice little vacation spot. With your own butler. And through most of that, Imoen is right there with you. And when she's not, she's in your dreams. Your very "humanity" takes the form of her, trying to dredge through your experiences for a tool to fight the influences Irenicus stirred within you...

    The Scion's LI only wishes they had that much of an impact on the Scion's life.

    Well, I tell a lie. Dynaheir's romance in BG1NPC is pretty dang powerful. And she's a good mage. So, there's that.
    ThacoBellMush_Mushthespace
  • GrumGrum Member Posts: 2,022
    Garrick. Returning throwing axe, elven chain, and so many wands. Paralyze? Fireball? Summon monster? More than enough charges, especially if you sell and rebuy the wand. Have him memorize some defensive buffs and you have someone who is tough enough, can identify items, so some ranged damage on trash mobs, and has the spells you need when you need them.
    thespacetbone1ZaghoulThacoBell
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 465

    @Zaghoul
    That's why IMO, Edwin is one of the best NPC's in the game because as a whole, everything fits and is coherent. Though the low dexterity is a mistake.

    Why is his low dex a mistake?

    @Zaghoul
    Whereas Imoen, who I dislike, doesn't match her stats at all. You don't get any sense of her being intelligent in the first game.
    Quite happy to be pushed to the side, grows up in the most famous library in the setting yet never bothered to study?
    Pretends she's some kind of guttersnipe?

    Intelligence is not just reading its the ability to learn and I think her skill set and inquisitive nature conveys her intelligence just fine. I know people that to talk to you might not think they are particularly intelligent by their manner but are actually very smart and well educated. Can't judge a book by it's cover, as they say.

    Also it doesn't say anywhere that she never bothered to read anything she just hasn't taken up wizardry as a profession, she seems to direct her intelligence into more mischievous pursuits. There's not a whole lot of dialogue in BG1 (even bios are fairly vague/short) so its tough to make judgments on all their stats based on the few lines we get from each of them.
    ZaghoulThacoBellSkatan
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,327
    edited August 27
    @Mush_Mush

    "can't judge a book by it's cover"

    You often can, that's why the exceptions are noted. The saying wouldn't even exist if the exceptions were so common they weren't exceptions. Nobody would ever have need to say something so innane.

    "Direct her intelligence to more mischevious pursits"
    One of the overiding commonalities within the prison population is lack of intelligence. The idea of the "clever criminal" is romantic nonsense. Seized on as proof that intelligence, (a genetically inherited trait), falls into some catagory that can be affected by measures to create "equality".

    "Intelligence is not just reading its the ability to learn"
    Yes, and an intelligent person learns pretty damn quick what what they need to advance. And in a seat of learning such as Candlekeep, thievery hardly shows much intelligent thought has gone into what one needs to do to advance.
    Brought up by Fagin, possibly, Candlekeep, unlikely.

    OK, so it's game/story mechanics, but as we have seen recently with GOT, if you don't keep as much as possible realistic, the whole fantasy starts to collapse. Imoen being relatively stupid fits far better with what we have been presented without the many excuses.

    Her being a Bhaalspawn has nothing to do with BG, that was a later addition (which still doesn't work IMO just as supersonic ravens and dragons don't).



    Post edited by UnderstandMouseMagic on
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 465
    @UnderstandMouseMagic

    1. The saying exists because you cannot make a valid assessment based on limited surface information... and there is no evidence in BG that Imoen is of low intellect.

    2. Life choices is not intelligence, that would be in the domain of wisdom. Imoen's wisdom score is notably low. You can be very smart and still make stupid choices.

    3. "Imoen being relatively stupid fits far better with what we have been presented without the many excuses." - What do you mean? How does Imoen "fit with being stupid" in your eyes?

    And also you didn't answer my original question as to why you think 10 dexterity on Edwin is a mistake?

    4. I don't know why you mentioned Bhaalspawn I didn't say anything about her being a Bhaalspawn...That would constitute a spoiler btw.
    ThacoBellGrum
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,327
    Mush_Mush said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic

    1. The saying exists because you cannot make a valid assessment based on limited surface information... and there is no evidence in BG that Imoen is of low intellect.

    2. Life choices is not intelligence, that would be in the domain of wisdom. Imoen's wisdom score is notably low. You can be very smart and still make stupid choices.

    3. "Imoen being relatively stupid fits far better with what we have been presented without the many excuses." - What do you mean? How does Imoen "fit with being stupid" in your eyes?

    And also you didn't answer my original question as to why you think 10 dexterity on Edwin is a mistake?

    4. I don't know why you mentioned Bhaalspawn I didn't say anything about her being a Bhaalspawn...That would constitute a spoiler btw.
    Sorry it's not in a spoiler, just didn't think it was necessary.

    Edwin low dexterity.

    How likely is that having attended an elite institution to learn magic and the craft requires you to use your hands?
    They show the little sprites waving their hands around to do spells, I imagine it would be something akin to learning to play the piano.
    For me it doesn't add up.

    FR doesn't strike me as a place, ( Thay in particular), where that sort of accomodation would be made. I would expect a high level of competence would be expected otherwise you wouldn't survive.

    Back to Imoen.
    To me she comes across as stupid, the way she talks, what she says, the way she acts.
    It's a sign of intelligence to go along with charname when she could be safe in Candlekeep?

    "Hiya, it's me Imoen"
    Purleese, surely expecting a level of self awareness is a prerequisite for regarding anybody as intelligent?



    tbone1
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 441
    edited August 23
    You're conflating intelligence with wisdom. She's smart enough to grow up and train as a thief in a cloistered library, but not wise enough to nick a book for re-entry before stealing out of there (though that might have backfired horribly if they keep anything resembling a decent ledger of tolls).

    Besides, as a thief she's more at ease plying her trade among people who aren't familiar with her, and she comes across as being a loyal person - she doesn't break off from Charname of her own will unless the party reputation drops below 4. This is reinforced by the fact that there is no combination of dialog options that keeps her from joining the party after Gorion's death. The only way to get out of Imoen joining (and not by immediately dismissing her or getting her killed) is to leave the map before she can talk to you.
    ThacoBellSkatanGrum
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,039
    @UnderstandMouseMagic I agree with a lot of what you said, particularly about criminals generally not being overly intelligent. This is particularly true in the first world, where an intelligent person can have a nice life without resorting to crime, particularly if they have the energy and drive to plan and commit crime.

    However, in rigid, stultifying, authoritarian environments, such as Candlekeep, high school, overly religious societies, Disney, etc, intelligent people who have more imagination than common sense often turn to rule breaking. So I can see Imoen doing this.
    ThacoBellZaghoulPokotaGrum
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,598
    tbone1 said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic I agree with a lot of what you said, particularly about criminals generally not being overly intelligent. This is particularly true in the first world, where an intelligent person can have a nice life without resorting to crime, particularly if they have the energy and drive to plan and commit crime.

    However, in rigid, stultifying, authoritarian environments, such as Candlekeep, high school, overly religious societies, Disney, etc, intelligent people who have more imagination than common sense often turn to rule breaking. So I can see Imoen doing this.

    (looks back on early RL). Errr, yeah, it can happen, just like that. :* ;) That's what I heard anyway.
    tbone1
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,327
    tbone1 said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic I agree with a lot of what you said, particularly about criminals generally not being overly intelligent. This is particularly true in the first world, where an intelligent person can have a nice life without resorting to crime, particularly if they have the energy and drive to plan and commit crime.

    However, in rigid, stultifying, authoritarian environments, such as Candlekeep, high school, overly religious societies, Disney, etc, intelligent people who have more imagination than common sense often turn to rule breaking. So I can see Imoen doing this.

    Is Candlekeep a "rigid, stultifying, authoritarian enviroment"?

    First thing you do at the start of the game is visit the pub, where you meet the barman who doesn't come across as very authoritarian rather a bit of a joker. You then proceed after a few errands to fetch a drunk guardsman's sword. People seem friendly and quite relaxed and concerned with your wellbeing.

    How likely is it that Candlekeep is that strict when it's treated as a common joke that Hull has been very drunk the night before?

    Where in the opening scenario of Candlekeep does anything come across as authoritarian?
    Does anybody beat you, order you around, tell you off for messing around?
  • ChnapyChnapy Member Posts: 360
    edited August 24
    I don't really see what you think Imoen should have done more to act her intelligence? Sure, she didn't end up a wizard or a cleric of Oghma but I don't think anyone but the wizards adhere to the creed that being a wizard is the best one can do with their life.
    As for her not studying that's only a hypothesis considering it's never told outright that she didn't study (seeing as in the first game, well, she didn't say much of anything). And in BG2 we see that she did study : she had read about duergars in Candlekeep, for example.
    Also unlike charname she didn't spend her whole life in the library, according to her bio she came there 10 years after you did (and i think bhaal's fifth dream tells us Charname was at least of walking age when that happened). I would put the age at which she came around 12yo.
    ThacoBellGrumEadwyn_G8keeperElendar
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 441
    edited August 24
    The fact that they won't let you back in unless you can pay their toll (which... isn't until Chapter 6). Despite growing up there and being Gorion's Ward and being on a first-name basis with virtually every major person in the abbey. I'm not sure which one this qualifies as but it's certainly not a warm, welcoming environment to outsiders.
    ThacoBellZaghoulGrum
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,039
    edited August 25
    @UnderstandMouseMagic Those are fair points, but 1) that shows how CHARNAME's life at Candlekeep is, not Imoen's; and 2) Imoen's personality might find more environments stuffy.

    Keep in mind that, as Gorion's ward, you get access to things Imoen doesn't and are treated well because of his status. Imoen is put to work in Winthrop's inn as an orphan who must earn her keep. While you learn fighting from Reevor or have lessons with Parda, she's sweeping floors and emptying bedpans.

    ThacoBellGrum
  • LoldrupLoldrup Member Posts: 166
    edited August 26

    Mush_Mush said:

    @UnderstandMouseMagic

    4. I don't know why you mentioned Bhaalspawn I didn't say anything about her being a Bhaalspawn...That would constitute a spoiler btw.
    Sorry it's not in a spoiler, just didn't think it was necessary.
    You can go back and retrofix your omission. Will you?
    New users could come and read this thread any day.
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 638
    DonCzirr said:

    Any additional opinions on her are welcomed – and yep – I know the enjoyment / personality part is all subjective – but happy to hear what folks think.

    Dynaheir comes from a land where women of her class and station make the law. She has a haughty, forthright attitude that some might think jars with her Goodness, but these qualities tend to seek to apply the right solution and damn any actions which are careless or less-than-righteous. She is voiced by the wonderful Jennifer Hale. Occasionally she will commend other good-aligned members of your party; particularly I notice this with Khalid, whom she has a habit of complimenting for the honesty of his character.

    I do like her a great deal. The reason that people often do not like her is essentially because she exhibits some of the same traits as Edwin (self-confident, opinionated, expectant). But if we can like all those things in Edwin, then there's no reason Dynaheir shouldn't get a look in if you're doing a Good-aligned party. :)
    Wandering_Ranger
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 702
    I don't think we can say much about Imoen's character in BG 1, because she is controlled by player and as smart as he/she makes her to be. Only thing we know about her besides that are profession and well, not even personality, but some comments. I had professors in University who were cheerful and tend not to use complicated vocabulary, but were intelligent as hell. So I see no reason why Imoen should have lower Intelligence.
    ThacoBellGrum
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 116
    Edwin's low dex is not a "mistake" - it makes sense.

    Dexterity is a bit of an odd stat, since there are two versions of it - hand-eye coordination, and athletic ability. A fat slob could be a master dart-thrower or archer, for example, but would be horrible at dodging, feinting, tumbling, running, jumping, etc. So it's not exactly a clear stat.

    But GENERALLY speaking, wizards wouldn't have a need for high dex. What for? They may develop some hand-eye coordination, but studying so much would have a detrimental effect on their physical stats. They value the power of the mind, not of the body.

    Certain specialists, such as transmuters, actually have a need for good hand-eye coordination - that profession is essentially alchemy - tinkering with small pieces of matter and trying to change it to something else. Precision (high dex) is needed. A conjurer would have zero need for dex.

    Secondly, recklessheart said "Dynaheir comes from a land where women of her class and station make the law. She has a haughty, forthright attitude that some might think jars with her Goodness, but these qualities tend to seek to apply the right solution and damn any actions which are careless or less-than-righteous". This is a brilliant insight.

    Too many people equate goodness with being "nice." Niceness has nothing to do with goodness. Niceness and goodness are not the same thing. Someone could be a mean jerk but have a noble soul and always want what's best for others. They might risk their lives for their community or on some great task. On the other hand, someone evil could be really nice (with an end game of betrayal or self-serving interests).

    Kivan is a good example of the former. He isn't really nice or polite - in fact, he's short, blunt, and even rude sometimes. He doesn't like Viconia and refuses to even give her a chance because of her race. But can you imagine him torturing or killing innocents? Nope. He would always do the right thing - he just wouldn't be "nice" about it. So he's good, but he's not nice. Same with Dynaheir. She is a noble person with the best intentions for the world. Just because she isn't chirpy or happy or whatever doesn't mean she isn't good. She's arrogant - so what??

    Finally, the intelligence argument. I hate Imoen, but there is no reason for her to be viewed as unintelligent. Intelligence and education are not the same thing. One might be a supremely intelligent individual, but having never been exposed to any kind of learning, might never find out that they are. Intelligence is nothing but the raw potential for learning.
    Mush_MushElendar
  • DonCzirrDonCzirr Member Posts: 10
    @ recklessheart and malachi151 - thanks for the recommendation on Dynaheir

    I got to Nashkel and dropped Neera like a bad habit to get Minsc into the party.

    I could not take her “gee-whiz” and “jeepers” personality a minute longer. My character has enough of the younger sister charm coming from Imoen.

    Now – we’re off to save Dynaheir and hopefully she, Minsc and Boo will fit the bill.

    Reading above – her lack of Sleep / Chaos etc should not be problem as my player character is a sorcerer – so I’ll just specialize where she is weak.

    For my tastes that leaves me with just one annoying personality to deal with:

    Minsc – good party member that’s actually entertaining

    Dynaheir – on our way to get her (hoping for the best)

    Imoen - little sister (one is enough)

    Jaheira – not so bad, after I arranged for her stuttering mate’s “accident”

    Ajantis - border-line. (I don’t like the “Give me a High-5” style “Yea” but am torn as to whether that’s more tolerable than Kivan’s brooding lamentations)

    Branwen – eh ? meh …. Ok I guess – she’s not Viconia in either abilities or personality … but I really am trying to make this a “good party” run.


    Helm ! give me strength to put up with them all ;)
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