"So I'm curious here, apart from stats, power, etc. who do people like as the best mage on a personality lvl?"
Edwin.
But I don't think you can seperate personality from stats so clearly. Or rather, seperate how a player reacts to a NPC personality. If Edwin wasn't the best mage in game with the highest inteligence, I doubt there would be quite so many fics written featuring him. Or as much forgiveness for his bad personality traits.
That's why IMO, Edwin is one of the best NPC's in the game because as a whole, everything fits and is coherent. Though the low dexterity is a mistake.
Whereas Imoen, who I dislike, doesn't match her stats at all. You don't get any sense of her being intelligent in the first game. Quite happy to be pushed to the side, grows up in the most famous library in the setting yet never bothered to study? Pretends she's some kind of guttersnipe?
The character when you read those stats is all over the place. It's as if there was never a writer who looked at the character and their stats.
Whereas Imoen, who I dislike, doesn't match her stats at all. You don't get any sense of her being intelligent in the first game. Quite happy to be pushed to the side, grows up in the most famous library in the setting yet never bothered to study? Pretends she's some kind of guttersnipe?
The character when you read those stats is all over the place. It's as if there was never a writer who looked at the character and their stats.
Since Imoen was a last-minute addition whose voice set was cobbled from a demo character, I can almost guarantee it.
And it's funny, as I now bounce back and forth between my iPad and computer, how much difference the banters in the BG1NPC mod make. The first game is so un-chatty that it seems odd, though let's remember that when the game came out in '98 or '99 it was breath-taking and revolutionary in many ways.
@UnderstandMouseMagic Interesting point and a fair point. I just tend to go with the ones that match a certain CHARNAME's personality and background for that particular run, these days for me, I go for that first. Stats a distant... somethng. Edwin just never seems to match any run for me in that sense I reckon. He is a well developed character, but still, I can't help myself from givin him one across the lip, the snooty Thayan that he is.
As to Immy, maybe she's just a genius that hates all that history and lore crap, hehheh. Kinda like one of those folks ya meet that's really smart but doesn't want or can't apply it the normal sense, and just does whatever they feel like at the time. Seems like it sometimes I thought BGNPC project helped a bit with her,I thought, still don't take her though. Same thing, rarely a match for any run I've done, and leaves when rep gets low, even though she says she'll stick by no matter what, or her background hints that anyway.
Stats can make a difference to some though, I'll agree,
I would have enjoyed Imoen if she followed the "Hermione" characterisation. Best friend, can always rely on them and gives you valuable perspective/insight. Somebody who doesn't confuse having a favourite colour (the whole pink thing) with having a personality.
So when you meet J and K, right at the beginning, instead of over friendly, I'm so cute, you got more reserved, lets think about this a bit.
I might be. I used to have a lot of content edition mods at different times so I may remember a few of them instead. I only used tactics and oversight really for difficulty increases.
Playing with Imoen I always change her Major color to Teal Blue-Green. Makes a big difference.
Mostly agree that Imoen as she actually is in the game does not even approach the huge RP significance she assumes in experiencing the BG story as Charname is encountering it. I definitely tend to invest a lot in the story of BG1 and get more Power-gamish in BG2. The whole Imoen thing in BG2 is like, who needs THIS??
Someone ought to make a Mod where Garrick has developed at some point an undying crush on Imoen and turns up in the confrontation with Yoshimo. Alas, Sweet Garrick dies gallantly, the noble Bard of legend, saving Imoen and the party from an unspeakable doom. Might make both of them more interesting RP choices!!
Yeah. Imoen is crucial to the game for me. When I try to put myself in the Scion's perspective, Imoen is simply vital. Everything the Scion has ever known, all the peace, all the family, all the happiness, was wiped out when the Fire Nation Sarevok attacked, and the only spark of it that survived was this plucky girl who has your back no matter what. She's a thief (and an archer at that) when you need one, and statted so she can be a mage when those start to matter as well, making her a worthwhile recruit.
Then the games happen. You're left standing over the corpse of your foster father, with nobody to stand beside you but the chirpy little kid sister who abandoned her own home to stay by your side. And then your character goes through hell. And then to hell. And then through hell again. And then back to hell again. And then the mortal world becomes such hell that hell itself becomes a nice little vacation spot. With your own butler. And through most of that, Imoen is right there with you. And when she's not, she's in your dreams. Your very "humanity" takes the form of her, trying to dredge through your experiences for a tool to fight the influences Irenicus stirred within you...
The Scion's LI only wishes they had that much of an impact on the Scion's life.
Well, I tell a lie. Dynaheir's romance in BG1NPC is pretty dang powerful. And she's a good mage. So, there's that.
Garrick. Returning throwing axe, elven chain, and so many wands. Paralyze? Fireball? Summon monster? More than enough charges, especially if you sell and rebuy the wand. Have him memorize some defensive buffs and you have someone who is tough enough, can identify items, so some ranged damage on trash mobs, and has the spells you need when you need them.
@Zaghoul That's why IMO, Edwin is one of the best NPC's in the game because as a whole, everything fits and is coherent. Though the low dexterity is a mistake.
@Zaghoul Whereas Imoen, who I dislike, doesn't match her stats at all. You don't get any sense of her being intelligent in the first game. Quite happy to be pushed to the side, grows up in the most famous library in the setting yet never bothered to study? Pretends she's some kind of guttersnipe?
Intelligence is not just reading its the ability to learn and I think her skill set and inquisitive nature conveys her intelligence just fine. I know people that to talk to you might not think they are particularly intelligent by their manner but are actually very smart and well educated. Can't judge a book by it's cover, as they say.
Also it doesn't say anywhere that she never bothered to read anything she just hasn't taken up wizardry as a profession, she seems to direct her intelligence into more mischievous pursuits. There's not a whole lot of dialogue in BG1 (even bios are fairly vague/short) so its tough to make judgments on all their stats based on the few lines we get from each of them.
You often can, that's why the exceptions are noted. The saying wouldn't even exist if the exceptions were so common they weren't exceptions. Nobody would ever have need to say something so innane.
"Direct her intelligence to more mischevious pursits" One of the overiding commonalities within the prison population is lack of intelligence. The idea of the "clever criminal" is romantic nonsense. Seized on as proof that intelligence, (a genetically inherited trait), falls into some catagory that can be affected by measures to create "equality".
"Intelligence is not just reading its the ability to learn" Yes, and an intelligent person learns pretty damn quick what what they need to advance. And in a seat of learning such as Candlekeep, thievery hardly shows much intelligent thought has gone into what one needs to do to advance. Brought up by Fagin, possibly, Candlekeep, unlikely.
OK, so it's game/story mechanics, but as we have seen recently with GOT, if you don't keep as much as possible realistic, the whole fantasy starts to collapse. Imoen being relatively stupid fits far better with what we have been presented without the many excuses.
Her being a Bhaalspawn has nothing to do with BG, that was a later addition (which still doesn't work IMO just as supersonic ravens and dragons don't).
1. The saying exists because you cannot make a valid assessment based on limited surface information... and there is no evidence in BG that Imoen is of low intellect.
2. Life choices is not intelligence, that would be in the domain of wisdom. Imoen's wisdom score is notably low. You can be very smart and still make stupid choices.
3. "Imoen being relatively stupid fits far better with what we have been presented without the many excuses." - What do you mean? How does Imoen "fit with being stupid" in your eyes?
And also you didn't answer my original question as to why you think 10 dexterity on Edwin is a mistake?
4. I don't know why you mentioned Bhaalspawn I didn't say anything about her being a Bhaalspawn...That would constitute a spoiler btw.
Just throwing it out there, but being a BG thief should take decent intelligence. Look at detect traps. You have to be able to detect traps that go from trip wires to explosive runes. You also have to know how to safely disable said trap without getting covered in magical acid.
And I agree with Mush_Mush. Low wisdom is making poor life choices.
Imoen has Wis11. That's bog average. As I mentioned earlier, she did not grow up in a university, but rather something akin to Princeton's Institute of Advanced Studies. It is a place where accomplished mages, researchers and nobles come after spending a ton of gold. Even though she had the intelligence to be a mage, she did not have the emotional maturity, nor did she likely have *that* easy access to tutoring. Infact, Gorion likely went out of his way to give her as normal a life as possible to make her seem like she isn't a threat...isn't a bhaalspawn. So she was raised by Winthrop at the inn.
So a highly intelligent, young girl, living in an environment devoid of people her age, and surrounded by stuffy monks/traveling mages...becomes mischievous. Pick pocketing the odd item, sneaking around. Acting quite normal.
She then adventures. She sees death. She sees hundreds of people die very violent, very nasty deaths. So she turns her intelligence from thieving pursuits to actual study of magic, and she does it the second that her life slows down enough for her to really devote herself to it. This is character development. It is someone growing up.
The story for Imoen, as presented, is satisfying to me.
1. The saying exists because you cannot make a valid assessment based on limited surface information... and there is no evidence in BG that Imoen is of low intellect.
2. Life choices is not intelligence, that would be in the domain of wisdom. Imoen's wisdom score is notably low. You can be very smart and still make stupid choices.
3. "Imoen being relatively stupid fits far better with what we have been presented without the many excuses." - What do you mean? How does Imoen "fit with being stupid" in your eyes?
And also you didn't answer my original question as to why you think 10 dexterity on Edwin is a mistake?
4. I don't know why you mentioned Bhaalspawn I didn't say anything about her being a Bhaalspawn...That would constitute a spoiler btw.
Sorry it's not in a spoiler, just didn't think it was necessary.
Edwin low dexterity.
How likely is that having attended an elite institution to learn magic and the craft requires you to use your hands? They show the little sprites waving their hands around to do spells, I imagine it would be something akin to learning to play the piano. For me it doesn't add up.
FR doesn't strike me as a place, ( Thay in particular), where that sort of accomodation would be made. I would expect a high level of competence would be expected otherwise you wouldn't survive.
Back to Imoen. To me she comes across as stupid, the way she talks, what she says, the way she acts. It's a sign of intelligence to go along with charname when she could be safe in Candlekeep?
"Hiya, it's me Imoen" Purleese, surely expecting a level of self awareness is a prerequisite for regarding anybody as intelligent?
You're conflating intelligence with wisdom. She's smart enough to grow up and train as a thief in a cloistered library, but not wise enough to nick a book for re-entry before stealing out of there (though that might have backfired horribly if they keep anything resembling a decent ledger of tolls).
Besides, as a thief she's more at ease plying her trade among people who aren't familiar with her, and she comes across as being a loyal person - she doesn't break off from Charname of her own will unless the party reputation drops below 4. This is reinforced by the fact that there is no combination of dialog options that keeps her from joining the party after Gorion's death. The only way to get out of Imoen joining (and not by immediately dismissing her or getting her killed) is to leave the map before she can talk to you.
@UnderstandMouseMagic I agree with a lot of what you said, particularly about criminals generally not being overly intelligent. This is particularly true in the first world, where an intelligent person can have a nice life without resorting to crime, particularly if they have the energy and drive to plan and commit crime.
However, in rigid, stultifying, authoritarian environments, such as Candlekeep, high school, overly religious societies, Disney, etc, intelligent people who have more imagination than common sense often turn to rule breaking. So I can see Imoen doing this.
@UnderstandMouseMagic I agree with a lot of what you said, particularly about criminals generally not being overly intelligent. This is particularly true in the first world, where an intelligent person can have a nice life without resorting to crime, particularly if they have the energy and drive to plan and commit crime.
However, in rigid, stultifying, authoritarian environments, such as Candlekeep, high school, overly religious societies, Disney, etc, intelligent people who have more imagination than common sense often turn to rule breaking. So I can see Imoen doing this.
(looks back on early RL). Errr, yeah, it can happen, just like that. That's what I heard anyway.
@UnderstandMouseMagic I agree with a lot of what you said, particularly about criminals generally not being overly intelligent. This is particularly true in the first world, where an intelligent person can have a nice life without resorting to crime, particularly if they have the energy and drive to plan and commit crime.
However, in rigid, stultifying, authoritarian environments, such as Candlekeep, high school, overly religious societies, Disney, etc, intelligent people who have more imagination than common sense often turn to rule breaking. So I can see Imoen doing this.
Is Candlekeep a "rigid, stultifying, authoritarian enviroment"?
First thing you do at the start of the game is visit the pub, where you meet the barman who doesn't come across as very authoritarian rather a bit of a joker. You then proceed after a few errands to fetch a drunk guardsman's sword. People seem friendly and quite relaxed and concerned with your wellbeing.
How likely is it that Candlekeep is that strict when it's treated as a common joke that Hull has been very drunk the night before?
Where in the opening scenario of Candlekeep does anything come across as authoritarian? Does anybody beat you, order you around, tell you off for messing around?
I don't really see what you think Imoen should have done more to act her intelligence? Sure, she didn't end up a wizard or a cleric of Oghma but I don't think anyone but the wizards adhere to the creed that being a wizard is the best one can do with their life. As for her not studying that's only a hypothesis considering it's never told outright that she didn't study (seeing as in the first game, well, she didn't say much of anything). And in BG2 we see that she did study : she had read about duergars in Candlekeep, for example. Also unlike charname she didn't spend her whole life in the library, according to her bio she came there 10 years after you did (and i think bhaal's fifth dream tells us Charname was at least of walking age when that happened). I would put the age at which she came around 12yo.
The fact that they won't let you back in unless you can pay their toll (which... isn't until Chapter 6). Despite growing up there and being Gorion's Ward and being on a first-name basis with virtually every major person in the abbey. I'm not sure which one this qualifies as but it's certainly not a warm, welcoming environment to outsiders.
@UnderstandMouseMagic Those are fair points, but 1) that shows how CHARNAME's life at Candlekeep is, not Imoen's; and 2) Imoen's personality might find more environments stuffy.
Keep in mind that, as Gorion's ward, you get access to things Imoen doesn't and are treated well because of his status. Imoen is put to work in Winthrop's inn as an orphan who must earn her keep. While you learn fighting from Reevor or have lessons with Parda, she's sweeping floors and emptying bedpans.
Any additional opinions on her are welcomed – and yep – I know the enjoyment / personality part is all subjective – but happy to hear what folks think.
Dynaheir comes from a land where women of her class and station make the law. She has a haughty, forthright attitude that some might think jars with her Goodness, but these qualities tend to seek to apply the right solution and damn any actions which are careless or less-than-righteous. She is voiced by the wonderful Jennifer Hale. Occasionally she will commend other good-aligned members of your party; particularly I notice this with Khalid, whom she has a habit of complimenting for the honesty of his character.
I do like her a great deal. The reason that people often do not like her is essentially because she exhibits some of the same traits as Edwin (self-confident, opinionated, expectant). But if we can like all those things in Edwin, then there's no reason Dynaheir shouldn't get a look in if you're doing a Good-aligned party.
I don't think we can say much about Imoen's character in BG 1, because she is controlled by player and as smart as he/she makes her to be. Only thing we know about her besides that are profession and well, not even personality, but some comments. I had professors in University who were cheerful and tend not to use complicated vocabulary, but were intelligent as hell. So I see no reason why Imoen should have lower Intelligence.
Edwin's low dex is not a "mistake" - it makes sense.
Dexterity is a bit of an odd stat, since there are two versions of it - hand-eye coordination, and athletic ability. A fat slob could be a master dart-thrower or archer, for example, but would be horrible at dodging, feinting, tumbling, running, jumping, etc. So it's not exactly a clear stat.
But GENERALLY speaking, wizards wouldn't have a need for high dex. What for? They may develop some hand-eye coordination, but studying so much would have a detrimental effect on their physical stats. They value the power of the mind, not of the body.
Certain specialists, such as transmuters, actually have a need for good hand-eye coordination - that profession is essentially alchemy - tinkering with small pieces of matter and trying to change it to something else. Precision (high dex) is needed. A conjurer would have zero need for dex.
Secondly, recklessheart said "Dynaheir comes from a land where women of her class and station make the law. She has a haughty, forthright attitude that some might think jars with her Goodness, but these qualities tend to seek to apply the right solution and damn any actions which are careless or less-than-righteous". This is a brilliant insight.
Too many people equate goodness with being "nice." Niceness has nothing to do with goodness. Niceness and goodness are not the same thing. Someone could be a mean jerk but have a noble soul and always want what's best for others. They might risk their lives for their community or on some great task. On the other hand, someone evil could be really nice (with an end game of betrayal or self-serving interests).
Kivan is a good example of the former. He isn't really nice or polite - in fact, he's short, blunt, and even rude sometimes. He doesn't like Viconia and refuses to even give her a chance because of her race. But can you imagine him torturing or killing innocents? Nope. He would always do the right thing - he just wouldn't be "nice" about it. So he's good, but he's not nice. Same with Dynaheir. She is a noble person with the best intentions for the world. Just because she isn't chirpy or happy or whatever doesn't mean she isn't good. She's arrogant - so what??
Finally, the intelligence argument. I hate Imoen, but there is no reason for her to be viewed as unintelligent. Intelligence and education are not the same thing. One might be a supremely intelligent individual, but having never been exposed to any kind of learning, might never find out that they are. Intelligence is nothing but the raw potential for learning.
A bit late to this party, but Dynaheir is underestimated because of not considering the full context of the game.
Really, Dynaheir and Minsc are the best possible "combo" of characters in the game. I don't know if this was done intentionally or not, but those two characters combine to form the ultimate power combo.
The greatness of this combo rests largely on Web and Spiderbane.
But consider that Minsc comes with ++ in Two-handed Swords and Spiderbane is a Two-handed Sword and he also has + in Longbow, so if you give him one more + in Lonbows he can either shoot into Webs or Spiderbane into them, making him the ideal partner to pair with a Webbing caster.
At the same time Dynaheir is an Evoker, and for some reason Web is an Evocation spell. Web is the most powerful crowd control spell in the game and since Dynaheir gets a save bonus on Evocation spells this makes her the best crowd controller in the game.
Dynaheir + Web with Mincs + Composite Longbow +1 and.or Spiderbane = the ultimate combo in BG1.
Also, Dynaheir gets a super Cloudkill as well.
At level 9 I give her a Minor Sequencer of Web & Stinking Cloud. Open with that and then throw Cloudkill on top and then she can just sit back and file her nails and quaff her hair while the rest of your party fans her and gives her back rubs
Also, her lore gets up to Bard levels. On some runs I give her all the wisdom books just to pump up her lore.
@ recklessheart and malachi151 - thanks for the recommendation on Dynaheir
I got to Nashkel and dropped Neera like a bad habit to get Minsc into the party.
I could not take her “gee-whiz” and “jeepers” personality a minute longer. My character has enough of the younger sister charm coming from Imoen.
Now – we’re off to save Dynaheir and hopefully she, Minsc and Boo will fit the bill.
Reading above – her lack of Sleep / Chaos etc should not be problem as my player character is a sorcerer – so I’ll just specialize where she is weak.
For my tastes that leaves me with just one annoying personality to deal with:
Minsc – good party member that’s actually entertaining
Dynaheir – on our way to get her (hoping for the best)
Imoen - little sister (one is enough)
Jaheira – not so bad, after I arranged for her stuttering mate’s “accident”
Ajantis - border-line. (I don’t like the “Give me a High-5” style “Yea” but am torn as to whether that’s more tolerable than Kivan’s brooding lamentations)
Branwen – eh ? meh …. Ok I guess – she’s not Viconia in either abilities or personality … but I really am trying to make this a “good party” run.
My problem with Baeloth is that you can't get him before about chapter 6 because of the level requirement. By that point my party is set since I go for rp over power after so many playthroughs
For my tastes that leaves me with just one annoying personality to deal with:
Minsc – good party member that’s actually entertaining
Dynaheir – on our way to get her (hoping for the best)
Imoen - little sister (one is enough)
Jaheira – not so bad, after I arranged for her stuttering mate’s “accident”
Ajantis - border-line. (I don’t like the “Give me a High-5” style “Yea” but am torn as to whether that’s more tolerable than Kivan’s brooding lamentations)
Branwen – eh ? meh …. Ok I guess – she’s not Viconia in either abilities or personality … but I really am trying to make this a “good party” run.
Ajantis never really "did it" for me. As an aspiring Paladin, he might be an interesting take on the class, but it would require more exposure than any of the NPCs were given in BG1.
Branwen I never understood. Though I'm not a mechanically motivated player much, I agree that she is inferior to Viconia in abilities. Her personality is a nothingness. Ugh. Branwen. She has a following, I believe. Yeslick is an alternative to both she and Ajantis if you're interested, and he comes with one of the Dwarf portraits there's even been!
I think Branwen suffers from not being in BG2. Viconia’s personality and backstory got a lot of development in the second game, including a romance, and I think that helped her popularity a lot.
After you play through BG a few times, check out the excellent BG1NPC mod. It really fleshes out the characterscand provides some interesting banters and sidequests.
Branwen is great. In a crisis, everybody needs a Branwen. She would be the captain of the hockey team or head girl in a school story, a thoroughly good egg and she's not insufferable like Ajantis. She comes across to me as grounded, sensible and has had a massive knock to her ego that makes her much more tolerant of other's shortcomings. Not particularly bright, but sometimes you don't need bright, you need dependability and grit.
Comments
"So I'm curious here, apart from stats, power, etc. who do people like as the best mage on a personality lvl?"
Edwin.
But I don't think you can seperate personality from stats so clearly. Or rather, seperate how a player reacts to a NPC personality.
If Edwin wasn't the best mage in game with the highest inteligence, I doubt there would be quite so many fics written featuring him. Or as much forgiveness for his bad personality traits.
That's why IMO, Edwin is one of the best NPC's in the game because as a whole, everything fits and is coherent. Though the low dexterity is a mistake.
Whereas Imoen, who I dislike, doesn't match her stats at all. You don't get any sense of her being intelligent in the first game.
Quite happy to be pushed to the side, grows up in the most famous library in the setting yet never bothered to study?
Pretends she's some kind of guttersnipe?
The character when you read those stats is all over the place. It's as if there was never a writer who looked at the character and their stats.
And it's funny, as I now bounce back and forth between my iPad and computer, how much difference the banters in the BG1NPC mod make. The first game is so un-chatty that it seems odd, though let's remember that when the game came out in '98 or '99 it was breath-taking and revolutionary in many ways.
As to Immy, maybe she's just a genius that hates all that history and lore crap, hehheh. Kinda like one of those folks ya meet that's really smart but doesn't want or can't apply it the normal sense, and just does whatever they feel like at the time. Seems like it sometimes
I thought BGNPC project helped a bit with her,I thought, still don't take her though. Same thing, rarely a match for any run I've done, and leaves when rep gets low, even though she says she'll stick by no matter what, or her background hints that anyway.
Stats can make a difference to some though, I'll agree,
I would have enjoyed Imoen if she followed the "Hermione" characterisation. Best friend, can always rely on them and gives you valuable perspective/insight.
Somebody who doesn't confuse having a favourite colour (the whole pink thing) with having a personality.
So when you meet J and K, right at the beginning, instead of over friendly, I'm so cute, you got more reserved, lets think about this a bit.
Playing with Imoen I always change her Major color to Teal Blue-Green. Makes a big difference.
Mostly agree that Imoen as she actually is in the game does not even approach the huge RP significance she assumes in experiencing the BG story as Charname is encountering it. I definitely tend to invest a lot in the story of BG1 and get more Power-gamish in BG2. The whole Imoen thing in BG2 is like, who needs THIS??
Someone ought to make a Mod where Garrick has developed at some point an undying crush on Imoen and turns up in the confrontation with Yoshimo. Alas, Sweet Garrick dies gallantly, the noble Bard of legend, saving Imoen and the party from an unspeakable doom. Might make both of them more interesting RP choices!!
the Fire NationSarevok attacked, and the only spark of it that survived was this plucky girl who has your back no matter what. She's a thief (and an archer at that) when you need one, and statted so she can be a mage when those start to matter as well, making her a worthwhile recruit.Then the games happen. You're left standing over the corpse of your foster father, with nobody to stand beside you but the chirpy little kid sister who abandoned her own home to stay by your side. And then your character goes through hell. And then to hell. And then through hell again. And then back to hell again. And then the mortal world becomes such hell that hell itself becomes a nice little vacation spot. With your own butler. And through most of that, Imoen is right there with you. And when she's not, she's in your dreams. Your very "humanity" takes the form of her, trying to dredge through your experiences for a tool to fight the influences Irenicus stirred within you...
The Scion's LI only wishes they had that much of an impact on the Scion's life.
Well, I tell a lie. Dynaheir's romance in BG1NPC is pretty dang powerful. And she's a good mage. So, there's that.
Also it doesn't say anywhere that she never bothered to read anything she just hasn't taken up wizardry as a profession, she seems to direct her intelligence into more mischievous pursuits. There's not a whole lot of dialogue in BG1 (even bios are fairly vague/short) so its tough to make judgments on all their stats based on the few lines we get from each of them.
"can't judge a book by it's cover"
You often can, that's why the exceptions are noted. The saying wouldn't even exist if the exceptions were so common they weren't exceptions. Nobody would ever have need to say something so innane.
"Direct her intelligence to more mischevious pursits"
One of the overiding commonalities within the prison population is lack of intelligence. The idea of the "clever criminal" is romantic nonsense. Seized on as proof that intelligence, (a genetically inherited trait), falls into some catagory that can be affected by measures to create "equality".
"Intelligence is not just reading its the ability to learn"
Yes, and an intelligent person learns pretty damn quick what what they need to advance. And in a seat of learning such as Candlekeep, thievery hardly shows much intelligent thought has gone into what one needs to do to advance.
Brought up by Fagin, possibly, Candlekeep, unlikely.
OK, so it's game/story mechanics, but as we have seen recently with GOT, if you don't keep as much as possible realistic, the whole fantasy starts to collapse. Imoen being relatively stupid fits far better with what we have been presented without the many excuses.
1. The saying exists because you cannot make a valid assessment based on limited surface information... and there is no evidence in BG that Imoen is of low intellect.
2. Life choices is not intelligence, that would be in the domain of wisdom. Imoen's wisdom score is notably low. You can be very smart and still make stupid choices.
3. "Imoen being relatively stupid fits far better with what we have been presented without the many excuses." - What do you mean? How does Imoen "fit with being stupid" in your eyes?
And also you didn't answer my original question as to why you think 10 dexterity on Edwin is a mistake?
And I agree with Mush_Mush. Low wisdom is making poor life choices.
Imoen has Wis11. That's bog average. As I mentioned earlier, she did not grow up in a university, but rather something akin to Princeton's Institute of Advanced Studies. It is a place where accomplished mages, researchers and nobles come after spending a ton of gold. Even though she had the intelligence to be a mage, she did not have the emotional maturity, nor did she likely have *that* easy access to tutoring. Infact, Gorion likely went out of his way to give her as normal a life as possible to make her seem like she isn't a threat...isn't a bhaalspawn. So she was raised by Winthrop at the inn.
So a highly intelligent, young girl, living in an environment devoid of people her age, and surrounded by stuffy monks/traveling mages...becomes mischievous. Pick pocketing the odd item, sneaking around. Acting quite normal.
She then adventures. She sees death. She sees hundreds of people die very violent, very nasty deaths. So she turns her intelligence from thieving pursuits to actual study of magic, and she does it the second that her life slows down enough for her to really devote herself to it. This is character development. It is someone growing up.
The story for Imoen, as presented, is satisfying to me.
Edwin low dexterity.
How likely is that having attended an elite institution to learn magic and the craft requires you to use your hands?
They show the little sprites waving their hands around to do spells, I imagine it would be something akin to learning to play the piano.
For me it doesn't add up.
FR doesn't strike me as a place, ( Thay in particular), where that sort of accomodation would be made. I would expect a high level of competence would be expected otherwise you wouldn't survive.
Back to Imoen.
To me she comes across as stupid, the way she talks, what she says, the way she acts.
It's a sign of intelligence to go along with charname when she could be safe in Candlekeep?
"Hiya, it's me Imoen"
Purleese, surely expecting a level of self awareness is a prerequisite for regarding anybody as intelligent?
Besides, as a thief she's more at ease plying her trade among people who aren't familiar with her, and she comes across as being a loyal person - she doesn't break off from Charname of her own will unless the party reputation drops below 4. This is reinforced by the fact that there is no combination of dialog options that keeps her from joining the party after Gorion's death. The only way to get out of Imoen joining (and not by immediately dismissing her or getting her killed) is to leave the map before she can talk to you.
However, in rigid, stultifying, authoritarian environments, such as Candlekeep, high school, overly religious societies, Disney, etc, intelligent people who have more imagination than common sense often turn to rule breaking. So I can see Imoen doing this.
First thing you do at the start of the game is visit the pub, where you meet the barman who doesn't come across as very authoritarian rather a bit of a joker. You then proceed after a few errands to fetch a drunk guardsman's sword. People seem friendly and quite relaxed and concerned with your wellbeing.
How likely is it that Candlekeep is that strict when it's treated as a common joke that Hull has been very drunk the night before?
Where in the opening scenario of Candlekeep does anything come across as authoritarian?
Does anybody beat you, order you around, tell you off for messing around?
As for her not studying that's only a hypothesis considering it's never told outright that she didn't study (seeing as in the first game, well, she didn't say much of anything). And in BG2 we see that she did study : she had read about duergars in Candlekeep, for example.
Also unlike charname she didn't spend her whole life in the library, according to her bio she came there 10 years after you did (and i think bhaal's fifth dream tells us Charname was at least of walking age when that happened). I would put the age at which she came around 12yo.
Keep in mind that, as Gorion's ward, you get access to things Imoen doesn't and are treated well because of his status. Imoen is put to work in Winthrop's inn as an orphan who must earn her keep. While you learn fighting from Reevor or have lessons with Parda, she's sweeping floors and emptying bedpans.
New users could come and read this thread any day.
I do like her a great deal. The reason that people often do not like her is essentially because she exhibits some of the same traits as Edwin (self-confident, opinionated, expectant). But if we can like all those things in Edwin, then there's no reason Dynaheir shouldn't get a look in if you're doing a Good-aligned party.
Dexterity is a bit of an odd stat, since there are two versions of it - hand-eye coordination, and athletic ability. A fat slob could be a master dart-thrower or archer, for example, but would be horrible at dodging, feinting, tumbling, running, jumping, etc. So it's not exactly a clear stat.
But GENERALLY speaking, wizards wouldn't have a need for high dex. What for? They may develop some hand-eye coordination, but studying so much would have a detrimental effect on their physical stats. They value the power of the mind, not of the body.
Certain specialists, such as transmuters, actually have a need for good hand-eye coordination - that profession is essentially alchemy - tinkering with small pieces of matter and trying to change it to something else. Precision (high dex) is needed. A conjurer would have zero need for dex.
Secondly, recklessheart said "Dynaheir comes from a land where women of her class and station make the law. She has a haughty, forthright attitude that some might think jars with her Goodness, but these qualities tend to seek to apply the right solution and damn any actions which are careless or less-than-righteous". This is a brilliant insight.
Too many people equate goodness with being "nice." Niceness has nothing to do with goodness. Niceness and goodness are not the same thing. Someone could be a mean jerk but have a noble soul and always want what's best for others. They might risk their lives for their community or on some great task. On the other hand, someone evil could be really nice (with an end game of betrayal or self-serving interests).
Kivan is a good example of the former. He isn't really nice or polite - in fact, he's short, blunt, and even rude sometimes. He doesn't like Viconia and refuses to even give her a chance because of her race. But can you imagine him torturing or killing innocents? Nope. He would always do the right thing - he just wouldn't be "nice" about it. So he's good, but he's not nice. Same with Dynaheir. She is a noble person with the best intentions for the world. Just because she isn't chirpy or happy or whatever doesn't mean she isn't good. She's arrogant - so what??
Finally, the intelligence argument. I hate Imoen, but there is no reason for her to be viewed as unintelligent. Intelligence and education are not the same thing. One might be a supremely intelligent individual, but having never been exposed to any kind of learning, might never find out that they are. Intelligence is nothing but the raw potential for learning.
Really, Dynaheir and Minsc are the best possible "combo" of characters in the game. I don't know if this was done intentionally or not, but those two characters combine to form the ultimate power combo.
The greatness of this combo rests largely on Web and Spiderbane.
But consider that Minsc comes with ++ in Two-handed Swords and Spiderbane is a Two-handed Sword and he also has + in Longbow, so if you give him one more + in Lonbows he can either shoot into Webs or Spiderbane into them, making him the ideal partner to pair with a Webbing caster.
At the same time Dynaheir is an Evoker, and for some reason Web is an Evocation spell. Web is the most powerful crowd control spell in the game and since Dynaheir gets a save bonus on Evocation spells this makes her the best crowd controller in the game.
Dynaheir + Web with Mincs + Composite Longbow +1 and.or Spiderbane = the ultimate combo in BG1.
Also, Dynaheir gets a super Cloudkill as well.
At level 9 I give her a Minor Sequencer of Web & Stinking Cloud. Open with that and then throw Cloudkill on top and then she can just sit back and file her nails and quaff her hair while the rest of your party fans her and gives her back rubs
Also, her lore gets up to Bard levels. On some runs I give her all the wisdom books just to pump up her lore.
I got to Nashkel and dropped Neera like a bad habit to get Minsc into the party.
I could not take her “gee-whiz” and “jeepers” personality a minute longer. My character has enough of the younger sister charm coming from Imoen.
Now – we’re off to save Dynaheir and hopefully she, Minsc and Boo will fit the bill.
Reading above – her lack of Sleep / Chaos etc should not be problem as my player character is a sorcerer – so I’ll just specialize where she is weak.
For my tastes that leaves me with just one annoying personality to deal with:
Minsc – good party member that’s actually entertaining
Dynaheir – on our way to get her (hoping for the best)
Imoen - little sister (one is enough)
Jaheira – not so bad, after I arranged for her stuttering mate’s “accident”
Ajantis - border-line. (I don’t like the “Give me a High-5” style “Yea” but am torn as to whether that’s more tolerable than Kivan’s brooding lamentations)
Branwen – eh ? meh …. Ok I guess – she’s not Viconia in either abilities or personality … but I really am trying to make this a “good party” run.
Helm ! give me strength to put up with them all
Branwen I never understood. Though I'm not a mechanically motivated player much, I agree that she is inferior to Viconia in abilities. Her personality is a nothingness. Ugh. Branwen. She has a following, I believe. Yeslick is an alternative to both she and Ajantis if you're interested, and he comes with one of the Dwarf portraits there's even been!
After you play through BG a few times, check out the excellent BG1NPC mod. It really fleshes out the characterscand provides some interesting banters and sidequests.
Branwen is great.
In a crisis, everybody needs a Branwen.
She would be the captain of the hockey team or head girl in a school story, a thoroughly good egg and she's
not insufferable like Ajantis.
She comes across to me as grounded, sensible and has had a massive knock to her ego that makes her much more tolerant of other's shortcomings.
Not particularly bright, but sometimes you don't need bright, you need dependability and grit.