A human F/T gets a thief kit bonuses for very little XP investment and unless this have been nerfed also gets 5 PiPs - its not true that you need to start as fighter to get 5 PiPs if you are human even though a lot of people seems to believe this. So, humans are better than shorties, just saying.
[My bolding for emphasis]
What are you saying, that humans no matter what class they take at first level can dual to thief and still reach GM? Not sure I understand your meaning, but if that is what you are saying I believe you are incorrect. You can still reach GM after dualing, but only if you are fighter (or kit) base class.
No, I guess I was unclear. Picking fighter as second class allows 5 PiPs for humans. Doing thief as first class means fighter THACO and thief kit. The offset, compared to multiclass or human fighter first class is lower HP, and no thief HLA.
Picking fighter as first class as human, is, I think, a bit wasted. Sure, you get more HP, but you lose THAC0, which, for F/T is extra important, since they have so low THAC0. For priest and druids thats not much of a concern though, since they have decent THACO (though fighter HLAs are better) and for mages there is Tensers transformation. So, fighter as second class is most important for human F/T. Some people, however, believes picking fighter as second class means 2 PiPs. That is not true, that is all I am saying.
And since shadowdancers rock, I think the loss of HP is worth and humans make better F/Ts than the subhuman races.
I restricted my earlier comparison to shorty F/Ts, since that was the question asked.
The shorty save-bonuses are an important benefit, but yes, the taller races do have other benefits which may be relevant depending upon exactly how you want to use your F/T.
If your F/T is going to be mainly a ranged Fighter, then an elf is a strong candidate (DEX and Bows bonuses). Alternatively, if your F/T is going to be mainly a melee Fighter and doesn't need early excellence in Thievery, then a half-orc is worth considering (STR and CON bonuses). And so on.
If your F/T needs to cover only some of the Thief skills rather than the full range (e.g. because you'll also have some NPC with other Thief skills, such as Imoen for locks and traps and/or Valygar for stealth and backstabs), then yes, a human dualled out of (kitted) Thief into (unkitted) Fighter or Mage or Cleric (whichever one your party needs) can be an excellent choice. My own current run is one of these - my protagonist is primarily a melee Fighter, but first he took some levels in Bounty Hunter so that he can also set some traps when appropriate (while relying on Imoen for disarming and unlocking).
F/T shorty, throwing dagger + kundane early game than foebane + scarlet Ninja to! This sound great! (No I'm not obsess with Foebane)
@Dharius , what you said is uncommon! You never use kit?! You play like single thief or single cleric ?! You're kind of "a purist"
Yeah I guess - I used to play 1st/2nd Ed D&D a long time ago...and kits were not that widespread at that point.
It's not that I don't use kits at all, I do now and again, and of course many of the NPCs you meet in BGEE and BG2/BG2EE have kits anyway. It's just that I don't think they add enough to the general games to worry about too much. For instance I played a 1/2 orc shadowdancer but I realised I didn't use the abilities much and used her mainly as a standard thief, so I got bored. Playing a standard class has its own challenges and roleplay options to me, and I guess it's the retro option
So yes I am a bit uncommon but it saves me having to click the little star on the menu all the time to use the special abilities
@Aerakar The big problem with shorties, is the lack romance ... that's make me sad.
Halflings are one of three races, (Human, Half-elf), with access to all romances, and like Dwarves, (but unlike Gnomes), they get the full suite of shorty save bonuses. They also have the least-awful paperdoll of the shorties.
An other question for Swash/F lovers: What weapons do you like to play with? From bg1 to Tob?
Baldur's Gate isn't THAT restrictive in terms of weapon choices because for most there is a fairly good option available at some point or another. Party composition etc. can help narrow it down, but if you want easy overlap then long swords are probably a fairly safe bet. Come ToB you'll have enough for 2 GMs eventually, so if you have your eye on an end end endgame weapon like e.g. Axe of the Unyielding you can plan to fill out the pips by the time you get there and use something else before.
And the last one: if you cheat and create a Swash/fighter multi, your Tac0 will be better than a S(10)/F ??
Thanks
It's difficult to make a blanket statement here because the leveling curves aren't equal and there may be fluctuations, depending. You'd have to plot graphs and compare if you want a visualization (or do the math if you're good with abstraction). You do get more +damage bonuses though because your Swashbuckler levels don't stop at 10, and that may just be worth more than THAC0 anyway.
Also, might want to try Fighter 9 -> Swashbuckler if you're already using creative non-standard setups, that one smashes hard
It's difficult to make a blanket statement here because the leveling curves aren't equal and there may be fluctuations, depending. You'd have to plot graphs and compare if you want a visualization (or do the math if you're good with abstraction). You do get more +damage bonuses though because your Swashbuckler levels don't stop at 10, and that may just be worth more than THAC0 anyway.
Also, might want to try Fighter 9 -> Swashbuckler if you're already using creative non-standard setups, that one smashes hard
Comments
Picking fighter as first class as human, is, I think, a bit wasted. Sure, you get more HP, but you lose THAC0, which, for F/T is extra important, since they have so low THAC0. For priest and druids thats not much of a concern though, since they have decent THACO (though fighter HLAs are better) and for mages there is Tensers transformation. So, fighter as second class is most important for human F/T. Some people, however, believes picking fighter as second class means 2 PiPs. That is not true, that is all I am saying.
And since shadowdancers rock, I think the loss of HP is worth and humans make better F/Ts than the subhuman races.
The shorty save-bonuses are an important benefit, but yes, the taller races do have other benefits which may be relevant depending upon exactly how you want to use your F/T.
If your F/T is going to be mainly a ranged Fighter, then an elf is a strong candidate (DEX and Bows bonuses). Alternatively, if your F/T is going to be mainly a melee Fighter and doesn't need early excellence in Thievery, then a half-orc is worth considering (STR and CON bonuses). And so on.
If your F/T needs to cover only some of the Thief skills rather than the full range (e.g. because you'll also have some NPC with other Thief skills, such as Imoen for locks and traps and/or Valygar for stealth and backstabs), then yes, a human dualled out of (kitted) Thief into (unkitted) Fighter or Mage or Cleric (whichever one your party needs) can be an excellent choice. My own current run is one of these - my protagonist is primarily a melee Fighter, but first he took some levels in Bounty Hunter so that he can also set some traps when appropriate (while relying on Imoen for disarming and unlocking).
It's not that I don't use kits at all, I do now and again, and of course many of the NPCs you meet in BGEE and BG2/BG2EE have kits anyway. It's just that I don't think they add enough to the general games to worry about too much. For instance I played a 1/2 orc shadowdancer but I realised I didn't use the abilities much and used her mainly as a standard thief, so I got bored.
So yes I am a bit uncommon
What weapons do you like to play with? From bg1 to Tob?
And the last one: if you cheat and create a Swash/fighter multi, your Tac0 will be better than a S(10)/F ??
Thanks
Also, might want to try Fighter 9 -> Swashbuckler if you're already using creative non-standard setups, that one smashes hard