Which mage for my party?

Aerakar

I am running a neutral bounty hunter 4/5-person party in BG2 EE. In BG I ran with a mainly 4-person team with this charname:

Bounty Hunter (dwarf), neutral
Kagain
Viconia
Imoen (dualed to mage)

I am now deep in Anm - level 16 - and this is my current team:

Bounty Hunter (dwarf), neutral
Korgan
Viconia
Yoshimo (will park him soon in CC and take him later to spellhold)

The mage slot is still open and needs to be filled soon as some battles are becoming more and more struggles now without arcane magic (I use SCS). I don't usually get this far into BG2 without getting restartitis and going back to BG1, so I am in a quandary as to which mage to grab for the long-term. My thoughts:

1. Edwin = great wizard, fine for neutral or evil party, have never used him before. He seems an ass though and not sure how long before my surly dwarf would decapitate him due to one sarcastic comment too many. Am I judging him too harshly?

2. Imoen = used her in the first game, she grew on me over time. But I tend to do a lot of quests before spellhold so I can see her being way, way behind in levels once she reunites with the party. Also, her banters seem boring.

3. Nalia = have never really used her. She is also a decent mage, but not such a great fit for a neutral, leaning evil party given she is neutral good. Sort of an Imoen clone.

4. Neera = have used her occasionally in BG and did her BG romance once. Seems powerful but in BG the randomness of her wild magic got on my nerves and seemed unreliable (so later switched to Imoen). I will take her on at least as a rotating member to do her quest line, but could also consider her full-time. The romance could be a plus also, have not done that one in BG2, nor any of her quests before.

5. Jan = I like Jan, find him entertaining and like he is chaotic neutral. But this run charname is a thief, so thieving skills plus traps are well-covered by my bounty hunter which reduces Jan's utility for the party somewhat. Also, Jan may not offer enough arcane 'ommph' for SCS given he is multi-class and slow leveling. But with a 4-person party will this matter so much?

One final note, in my build romance racial restrictions are turned off so as a dwarf I can romance Viconia (the current plan), but could consider Neera also (have not done that one, did the Viconia one years ago and enjoyed it) if she makes the cut.

Advice welcome!

jsaving

Edwin is by far the strongest mage due to his bonus spells per level. Imoen and Nalia are strong as well due to their additional hit points, ability to use a shortbow, and locks/traps skills. Note that taking Imoen/Nalia is not redundant if your main is a thief because you can then specialize in other thief skills like stealth (to leverage backstab) or pickpocket (if you want to acquire Copper Coronet items without delaying your push toward 15K gold). If you are looking for entertainment, though, Jan is the best hands-down (especially if you're not a fan of Edwin's put-downs). Neera isn't bad power-wise but do be aware that her wild surges will occasionally destroy a percentage of your gold, which to some players makes her more of a liability than an asset.

Gallowglass

The natural fit for your party is Edwin, and he's also exceptionally powerful. Yes, he's an ass, albeit often in an amusing way. Your protagonist will often be tempted to kill him, but (like Korgan in-game) should restrain himself because he knows that Edwin is too valuable to waste.

OrlonKronsteen

It's a tough question because it's hard to know which personalities you'll actually like once they're in your party. I'm inclined to agree that Edwin sounds like a better fit with your line-up, and in power gaming terms he's far and away the best mage. After Edwin I'd consider Nalia. She's nicer than Edwin, but the personality dynamic of mixing good and evil NPCs can be entertaining. Also, as was mentioned earlier, if you're also interested in a supplementary thief, Nalia (or Imoen) can be helpful. I notice that you also have Yoshimo in your group. Is that for RP reasons or are you focusing on different thief skills?

Zaghoul

I feel the same with Edwin no matter what alignment I'm doin, that guy is just beggin for a smack right in the chops.

IMO
Neera, nope, getting turned to stone by her with a couple of runs deep into the game and I finally had to give her up for good. Note I only do no-reload so if not doin that, it would be fine and dandy.

Immy, agreed, a bit late.

Nalia I usually like even with the neutral/ evil leaning group sometimes, just some of her conversations intrigue me (overed on the other thread)

Mostly ol Jan though, he and Korgan get along nice and even with the bounty hunter you get plenty EXTRA traps that come in handy when you can't rest, esp, endgame fight. Plus it's nice having him not only trap extra but also able to hit ol Viccy's skellies with Improved invis. It is also interesting mazing critters with the BH (although I use RR now, so no maze) and then having both him AND Jan set extra traps for the return at the same time.

unavailable

you like jan. pick him.

SomeSort

Edwin is the best mage in the game and fits with the rest of the party, alignment-wise. Edwin/Viconia/Korgan is probably the most common trio of characters in the game, since almost every evil run-through will use them all.

Nalia gets along great with all the vanilla BG2 evil characters. Her, Mazzy, and Imoen were the only three good or evil characters in the base game with no party conflicts, which made them all really useful when filling out an evil team. I quite like her, but I find her a bit underdeveloped in ToB-- you'll notice she has substantially fewer banters than any other party member.

Since Mazzy (rightfully) comes into conflict with Hexxat, I believe Nalia and Imoen are the only good-aligned characters left in the game with no conflicts whatsoever. (Add to this that Nalia won't leave you for siding with Bodhi and Mazzy will and Nalia is by far the most tolerant NPC in the game who isn't neutral alignment or related to you.)

(As an aside: Nalia, self-appointed protector of the defenseless, really should try to murderize the crap out of Hexxat. It makes no sense that she doesn't. But my understanding is that there's no conflict there.)

Neera is mutually exclusive with Edwin, but since you only wanted one of them anyway, that doesn't really matter and she otherwise exists without conflicts.

I'd go with one of those three because I hate having a multiclass mage as my only mage. I like Edwin, but if Edwin's arrogance is too annoying, I'd go with Nalia. (Not that she's not conceited and potentially annoying in her own right.)

Aerakar

With including Yoshimo - at least for a few levels - this is more role-play than anything with 2 BHs working as a trap-centric ambush team (fun!), but he is also helpful with open locks/pick-pockets as these skills are currently low on charname.

OrlonKronsteen said:

I notice that you also have Yoshimo in your group. Is that for RP reasons or are you focusing on different thief skills?

RelSundan

Edwin I would say if you don't care for alignment. The only spell school he misses out is divination, where the only needed spell is True sight which Viconia can cast.

UnderstandMouseMagic

Edwin, this is a no brainer IMO.

Has some of the best dialog in game, gets on reasonably well with Kagain and Viconia keeps him in line.

As charname is a bounty hunter, which to me signals that their morals are flexiable, (killing for money), it's a perfect fit.

Edwin is a character who is straight up selfish and never pretends they are not. Has such low wisdom they insult everybody, regardless of the possible consequences. Jumps in where angels fear to tread when it comes to possibly gaining more power, (which again backs stats). Has high intelligence and displays that by pricking the hubris of those who advertise to the world how good and righteous they are. And gives insightful comments throughout the game.

It's Edwin who gives the speech to Anomen decrying his zeal for killing everything that doesn't agree with the morals of the RH and questions the actions of the RH. Something which any thinking person must have wanted to do at some point.

One of the best written characters in the whole saga.

UnderstandMouseMagic

RelSundan said:

Edwin I would say if you don't care for alignment. The only spell school he misses out is divination, where the only needed spell is True sight which Viconia can cast.

For me the main drawback of that is not being able to use "identify". But that's solved in SOD and BG2 because there are items you can buy/find.
I personally don't think they should have put those items in because it is a drawback that does affect how a playthrough proceeds if you use Edwin.
And the idea of having different characters is that they should affect your gameplay.

RelSundan

He got Imoen for that anyway. You always have 2 mages at the least, in Baldur's gate 2 because it takes quite some spells to combat other mages AND support the party against melee foes, where mages really shine. Most times you face more than 1 spell caster at the same time.

May not be as important for Non-SCS users, I've gotten so used to it I forgot how they operate in vanilla.

unavailable

I decided to not split my spell book between anti mage and party support when I realized that a buffed party can wipe the mages team out before the mage has finished casting it's protections. So yeah I kill the mages team, and summon some poor fucking bastards to die for me while I wait out the protections.

RelSundan

I take it you don't play with SCS then, you would be singing another tune if you were.

unavailable

RelSundan said:

I take it you don't play with SCS then, you would be singing another tune if you were.

I play SCS and it is still easier to kill the mages team. One thing I did differently was to use more dominations. Still think that legacy of bhaal mode, or the heart of fury (the Icewind dale equivilent) does a better job of increasing the tactical play of the game, because they buff the melee guys.

PaulaMigrate

Nobody mentioned Aerie with her combination of mage + cleric spells, yes she is multiclass but she covers a lot of abilities.

SomeSort

PaulaMigrate said:

Nobody mentioned Aerie with her combination of mage + cleric spells, yes she is multiclass but she covers a lot of abilities.

She also has a personality conflict with Korgan that will force one or the other to leave the party for good, potentially at a very inopportune time. (It's not good when that happens in the Underdark.)

This is especially bad in a party-of-4 playthrough because there's less physical space between the front and the back of your formation so they'll get into arguments more often.

RelSundan

unavailable said:

RelSundan said:

I take it you don't play with SCS then, you would be singing another tune if you were.

I play SCS and it is still easier to kill the mages team. One thing I did differently was to use more dominations. Still think that legacy of bhaal mode, or the heart of fury (the Icewind dale equivilent) does a better job of increasing the tactical play of the game, because they buff the melee guys.

Yes, most of them are pretty easy but:

unavailable said:

a buffed party can wipe the mages team out before the mage has finished casting it's protections.

Aerakar

The consensus seems to be Edwin is the right choice for this particular team. I have never played him - not one time - but doing his small quest and getting his banters will be new content, another plus.

I will do the Neera quest line next and then ditch her for Edwin, inching further towards the dark side. Is a hell trials alignment shift coming? Perhaps.

Zaghoul

@Aerakar Aawww, welll, at least give him one across the lip for me, hehheh I will admit though, their quest's are entertaining and profitable.
On the positive side, at least it will be a new experience though, which is always welcome in the game. Whenever I try that I am often pleasantly surprised, and that's just good enough.

unavailable

There is a web page that has all of the baldurs gate NPC banters transcribed. It is a very long script, at least 20 pages by my estimate. It would probably be illegal as hell to link it here. I know certain Japanese developers have sued for less.

fateless

As an odd little aside on Edwin. The little hiccup from certain factors of his personal quest. If things happen that you don't get the last banter on his quest. That can spontaneously reset itself in ToB, however it does not always do so which can be amusing. Assuming they haven't fixed that little fact in EE.

UnderstandMouseMagic

Aerakar said:

The consensus seems to be Edwin is the right choice for this particular team. I have never played him - not one time - but doing his small quest and getting his banters will be new content, another plus.

I will do the Neera quest line next and then ditch her for Edwin, inching further towards the dark side. Is a hell trials alignment shift coming? Perhaps.

Welcome to the dark side.

But have to ask, how have you never played him? Best mage in game and easily found plus well known as the best mage in game.

I wonder if players are divided into those who laugh when they are called monkeys and those who take offence.
It would explain a lot.

Gallowglass

@UnderstandMouseMagic - I think there are many players who simply don't do Evil runs (and avoid Evil companions because they walk out at high REP). Maybe @Aerakar is one such - note that even in his current case, his protagonist is Neutral rather than Evil. Perhaps this is the most Evil-leaning party he has ever run.

(I only rarely do Evil myself, although my current run happens to be one of the exceptions.)

PaulaMigrate

The problem with the *so-called* evil NPCs is that they leave the party at high REP. Since this is easily achieved when following the main plot and quests in a more or less logical way, it makes keeping those companions cumbersome.
It makes sense that e.g. a paladin leaves an evil party BUT it does not make much sense that Edwin or Viconia should leave a *good* party. They are outsiders, even despised by the common folk. So what can be better for them than the shelter of a respected party? As long as the PC keeps them under the party's umbrella why should they bother what the monkeys and jaluks who run the shops and inns think about REP? What does Edwin gain from an evil party leader that he does not get from a good one?
I love playing with Shar-Teel or Viconia or Edwin but I hate to have to adjust my decisions in order to keep them.
Actually I modify those NPCs in my game with opcode = 360 (Ignore reputation) so I can have my fun.

fateless

The higher your charisma the less of their chance of leaving. Specially once you get into 19+ stats.

Aerakar

Yes, @Gallowglass called it. I have never done an evil run or played an evil-aligned protagonist in all my years of the BG series, but I have included some of the other evil NPCs as party members - sometimes occasionally, e.g. Korgan, Montaron - and sometimes more often, e.g. Viconia. My BH is neutral as noted above. But I may consider RPing him going darker as things progress. We will see.

In the past when I played more BG2 (way back before NWN came out), I tended to play single/multi-class mages or bards and Edwin was just never needed (or I went with Minsc and was afraid they would not play well together).

I am also surprised when I think about it that I have never went with him before. Since the EEs came out I have played more BG than BG2. This run is in fact the furthest I have gotten in some time, starting from BG and then going to SOD and now BG2.

Gallowglass said:

@UnderstandMouseMagic - I think there are many players who simply don't do Evil runs (and avoid Evil companions because they walk out at high REP). Maybe @Aerakar is one such - note that even in his current case, his protagonist is Neutral rather than Evil. Perhaps this is the most Evil-leaning party he has ever run.

(I only rarely do Evil myself, although my current run happens to be one of the exceptions.)

UnderstandMouseMagic

@Aerakar

Thanks for answering, it was purely an enquiry.

As people have pointed out, other than reputation, the evil NPC never expect you to do anything evil. And I suppose I have got callous over the years and just kill a begger to save all the rep hassle.

Like you I've never played evil alignment, mainly neutral, occasionally good. But I find nowadays I don't like a lot of the classically good NPC. I find them rather one dimensional. Just as Dorn is boringly evil.

There's an inbuilt contradiction with the evil NPC because they follow you around and yet Charname keeps on saving people/situations.
That's interesting from a RP perspective.