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Romance: Viconia or Jaheria?

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Comments

  • RavenslightRavenslight Member Posts: 1,473
    @Mirandel

    So… Not a fan of the Jaheira romance huh? ;)

    People will of course have differing interpretations and differing feelings resulting from those interpretations. Mine are obviously quite different from yours. All the more reason to have more romantic options available to choose from. We all have our favorites, and also those that make us roll our eyes for one reason or another.

    What each of us might find appealing in a romantic relationship is such an intensely personal thing. I think the challenge for a developer to come up with romances that will appeal to many different types of people must be daunting at times.

    I notice that you voted for Viconia here, while some others find her to be totally unacceptable as a love interest. Nobody is wrong, we all just look at things differently. :)
    tbone1
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 263
    edited June 28
    Viconia or Jaheira? This is a tough question actually...

    In my opinion they are similar yet different.
    They are both more experienced than charname and I think it shines through the romance.
    A good chunk of the romance is about coming to term with the life they led *before* BG1, a life they led while charname was growing up.

    Aerie on the other hand appears younger and her romance is more about ..growing up. Helping her finding her place outside the circus and helping her to overcome her insecurity.

    So, the question is, what do you find more interesting?
    Helping a defector from the Underdark (who embraces the goddess of forgetting and nihilism)
    or do you want to help a widow to overcome her grief?


    Though, the REAL question you should ask yourself is:
    Why exactly am I not aiming for Neera, Aerie or that girl that Bioware tried to kill of and finally has a finished romance mod?
    Attalus
  • inkblowoutinkblowout Member Posts: 16
    Arcanis said:



    Though, the REAL question you should ask yourself is:
    Why exactly am I not aiming for Neera, Aerie or that girl that Bioware tried to kill of and finally has a finished romance mod?

    Eh not a fan of Neera's character in general... (most of the EE characters lack something that the OG characters have.)

    Aerie I personally didn't find it enjoyable, not that she's annoying. But nothing interesting was happening, in Jaheria's we've got dreams, stories and talked about myself. With Viconia we got the same as jaheria (except for dreams.) but we got to see both how cruel viccy is... and how she really isn't that evil as a character (I'd call her a b**** really, not evil.)

    And for the last bit I'd think you are refering to nalia I'm guessing (My first playthrough so I don't know much of the game's history to begin with.)

    I heard the romance with her is really, really good (some will even say it's the best romance.) But this playthrough I'm trying to limit myself as much to the vanilla as possible (with some small exceptions.) Next time I'll see the mod and see if it's worth playing :wink:
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Jaheria
    Mirandel said:

    Poor Jaheira, she often gets such flack for daring to love again. :)

    Not so much as "again" but "so soon". First romance talk happen - what? 2 days past escape? 3? I totally understand that timeline is screwed in BG2, but still it feels "too soon".
    Despite being categorized as "romance talks", most of her early romance talks are not really all that romantic. She's talking to you like a good friend, which totally makes sense given what you've been through together and what she's experienced. And then after a lot of those talks and a long period of your steady friendship, those friendship talks finally start taking on a bit more of a romantic overtone in a way that I find totally natural and plausible.

    The in-game timescale can be problematic, (if you rush through, you could probably take her from widowed to shacking up in a half-dozen days), but time in BG2 is all an abstraction. Edwin manages to go from level 1 mage to "literally more powerful than Elminster, who has been studying magic for thousands of years" in the course of a couple months.

    And remember that time spent adventuring isn't like time spent in modern society. If I date a woman, how much do I really see her? Maybe for the first month we go on a date once a week, with each date taking five hours, so that's like 20 hours right there. Then things start getting serious and we double that in the second month. By the third month, we're seeing each other three nights a week, and by month four we're actually spending every evening together.

    By modern standards, our relationship is progressing very quickly, but we've spent a total of 200 hours in each others' company. Assuming 8 hours of sleep a night, a pair of traveling companions will spend more time together in two weeks than a serious real-world couple might spend in four months.

    After 3-6 months of spending every waking moment together, I'm not surprised sparks are flying.


    She was a “family friend”, Gorion’s friend. But the protagonist never knew her at all growing up. Lots of people meet their lifemates among family friends.

    She was an "older" (much, MUCH older) family friend and a mentor for the duration of BG1 (and SoD). Not sure many widows marry again children of their friends.

    It does not mean, that boys can not fall for elder mature women, that also happen to be their teachers - happens all the time. But it can give some uncomfortable feelings to some too.
    She's not much, much older. We only have two major pieces of evidence about Jahiera's age, in fact.

    For the first, Jahiera's bio says she was born during the Tethyrian cival war, which started in 1347 DR. Baldur's Gate starts in 1369 DR, (check the dates on your journal entries), making Jahiera 22 at the oldest. Charname is stated to be 20 at the start of the saga. According to the dates and biographical information provided by the game itself, the age gap is 0-2 years.

    For the second, Gorion says he and Khalid/Jahiera are "old friends", which implies she's older than you, (either Gorion has been sneaking out of Candlekeep to go adventuring behind your back, or his time adventuring with her came many years ago). How do we reconcile this statement with the dates presented in her bio? I see three ways.

    #1: Assume the bio is wrong and Jahiera is much older than Charname.
    #2: Assume Khalid is an old friend of Gorion's, and Jahiera, as his bride, simply got included because it'd be too awkward to say "they're an old friend and also that really young tart he just married".
    #3: Assume Gorion's "old friends" remark is not a reference to Khalid and Jahiera in particular, but rather a euphamistic way of saying that they are Harpers, members of the secret organization which Gorion refers to as old friends.

    Obviously all three methods make assumptions, but only #1 (the "Jahiera is really old") requires making an assumption that directly contradicts canon evidence provided by the developers. I personally always go with assumption #3, because it also has the advantage of explaining how Khalid and Jahiera are still level 1, which implies they're relatively new to adventuring.

    Not that #1 or #2 assumptions are *wrong* per se, just saying if someone is squicked out by the perceived May/December nature of the relationship, it's really easy to headcanon Jahiera and Charname to be the same age in a way that is entirely consistent with what the developers wrote. (In fact, the idea that Jahiera is young fits with canon evidence much better than the idea that Jahiera is old.)

    (Also, the #3 assumption is a big reason why I love the romance so much. She acts so tough and self-assured, but she's basically a child herself and the very first time something comes along that shakes the foundation of her world, she crumbles into a mess, second-guessing herself at every turn. And then the resolution to the relationship is especially poetic, as it essentially boils down to her being told to decide for herself whether what she did was right, and you've either helped her rebuild her confidence so that provides comfort, or else you haven't and that serves as her personal hell.)
    ThacoBelltbone1Aerakar
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 263

    Arcanis said:



    Though, the REAL question you should ask yourself is:
    Why exactly am I not aiming for Neera, Aerie or that girl that Bioware tried to kill of and finally has a finished romance mod?

    Eh not a fan of Neera's character in general... (most of the EE characters lack something that the OG characters have.)

    Aerie I personally didn't find it enjoyable, not that she's annoying. But nothing interesting was happening, in Jaheria's we've got dreams, stories and talked about myself. With Viconia we got the same as jaheria (except for dreams.) but we got to see both how cruel viccy is... and how she really isn't that evil as a character (I'd call her a b**** really, not evil.)

    And for the last bit I'd think you are refering to nalia I'm guessing (My first playthrough so I don't know much of the game's history to begin with.)

    I heard the romance with her is really, really good (some will even say it's the best romance.) But this playthrough I'm trying to limit myself as much to the vanilla as possible (with some small exceptions.) Next time I'll see the mod and see if it's worth playing :wink:
    I heard about the Nalia mod, but I never really tried it, because I *never* used Nalia.
    For two reasons: 1) She annoyes me. Her Condescending helpfulness rubs me the wrong way, which prevents me from giving her a chance.
    2) I need room for Imoen, a character I'm apparently unable to not use. I tried, but could never go through with it... x_x


    I was actually talking about a rather ..controversial mod. It is well written (well the parts I know of, i have yet to actually play BG2 since it got completed..), buuut some see moral problems with dating her.

    I was vague because I'm always afraid that naming hte mod is offending people.. =/
    I mean the Imoen romance mod



    Also, I now need to make ANOTHER character to try the Nalia mod... arrrg T-T

    Well, at least story mod allows me to rush through BG1..
    If I could only find a way to skip the first game, especially since the second is better =(
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 228
    edited June 29
    Viconia

    @Mirandel

    So… Not a fan of the Jaheira romance huh? ;)

    Not really, no. The writing itself is fine, but circumstances are unacceptable to me.
    I did not know term "fan-service" back then but now as I do, this is exactly what it feels like (to me): some artificial change in plot to satisfy some demand from part of the audience. People wanted to separate the pair and romance Jaheira - people got it.
    (Well can be that I am just paranoid after BW's later games)

    @Mirandel
    I notice that you voted for Viconia here, while some others find her to be totally unacceptable as a love interest. Nobody is wrong, we all just look at things differently. :)

    As I said - I chose her only as a "lesser evil" out of them two. As ... specific as that romance is, it makes me less uncomfortable than Jaheira's romance. And requires less "headcanoning" (or should I say - "headcorrecting"?) game's plot-wholes.
    SomeSort said:


    For the first, Jahiera's bio says she was born during the Tethyrian cival war, which started in 1347 DR. Baldur's Gate starts in 1369 DR, (check the dates on your journal entries), making Jahiera 22 at the oldest. Charname is stated to be 20 at the start of the saga. According to the dates and biographical information provided by the game itself, the age gap is 0-2 years.

    Sure. And if we add "time of troubles" to the scheme we will realize Charname is 10 years old.

    Timeline in the game is the last thing we can rely upon and I would not take it at a face value.
    SomeSort said:


    #1: Assume the bio is wrong and Jahiera is much older than Charname.

    There are so many inconsistent dates in the game, and enough banters from Khalid and Jaheira indicating very intensive work as Harpers (not to mention Jaheira's life in the Circle before that), that this is the only reasonable assumption.
    SomeSort said:


    #2: Assume Khalid is an old friend of Gorion's, and Jahiera, as his bride, simply got included because it'd be too awkward to say "they're an old friend and also that really young tart he just married".

    That would be a very heavy headcanoning, since there are no slightest hints to support the idea - no age difference indicated anywhere in the banters, supporting text or even portraits.
    SomeSort said:


    #3: Assume Gorion's "old friends" remark is not a reference to Khalid and Jahiera in particular, but rather a euphamistic way of saying that they are Harpers, members of the secret organization which Gorion refers to as old friends.

    Another heavy headcanonig, since it directly contradicts Gorion's words " it is imperative that you would go to DAI and find my old friends - Khalid and Jaheira".

    If any of that assumption helps to you - great! To me nothing here sounds convincing. Or necessary: falling for a beautiful older women (especially half-elf - age should not be that obvious) is good enough for me. For CHARNAME.

    You see, THIS here is the problem - I am totally fine with the idea that Charname is crazy about Jaheira since the moment they have met in FAI. What feels wrong for me is the fact that Jaheira suddenly falls in love practically near her husband's still worm body. Ok, this is an uncalled exaggeration, but Jaheira's grief was so intense with all these promises of vengeance - and suddenly it all means nothing.

    I do not mind Charname to be in love with Jaheira at all, but a month (or even three moths) of running around Athkatla in a constant presence of each other does not sound to me as enough time for a person in a deep sorrow about lost "love of her life" to fall in love again. I simply can not get over time/dialog tones inconsistency.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,630
    Jaheria
    Yeah, how dare Jaheira ever find love or happiness again. This is unacceptable! I demand she be miserable and never get to move on with her life.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,290
    Jaheria
    @Mirandel
    Jaheira didn't just suddenly got into Charname. The process was gradual and you would be aware of that, had you remembered how her romance went.

    I also see you mention that many arguments are headcanon-ish. I present you some more headcanon-ish arguments for Viconia: "She isn't evil, she is just a victim, the fact that she worshipps evil deity doesn't mean anything, as well as the fact that aside from charname she treats other beings like trash". #DracoInLeatherPants

    Worth to note:
    I know that Viconia was been throught many unpleasant events in life, but that fact doesn't justify everything. Regardless what people live throught, they still are capable of making a choice and are accountable of their actions.
    ThacoBell
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 228
    Viconia
    ThacoBell said:

    Yeah, how dare Jaheira ever find love or happiness again. This is unacceptable! I demand she be miserable and never get to move on with her life.

    And you still missing the point - not "again" but "so soon". Play it as you like, but horny widow is not my Jaheira, that was faithful to her love - Khalid and was not about to hit on her ward, that was entrusted to her by a dead friend.

    Should timing be different, I would not complain, but as it is now, even knowing it's all just a game mechanic limitations, I can not accept it.

    @O_Bruce you are talking as I was defending Viconia's romance. I do not. All I am saying - it's less forced on the established character. For me, obviously.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,290
    Jaheria
    And I'm saying that such argumentation you used can be easily countered.
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 228
    Viconia
    O_Bruce said:

    And I'm saying that such argumentation you used can be easily countered.

    Not sure I understand what you are counter-arguing. Well can be that many of those romancing Viconia use headcanon you suggested. Why would it make headcanoning Jaheira's age or relationship with Khalid and Gorion any less headcanon?
    Artona
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Jaheria
    Mirandel said:

    @Mirandel

    So… Not a fan of the Jaheira romance huh? ;)

    Not really, no. The writing itself is fine, but circumstances are unacceptable to me.
    I did not know term "fan-service" back then but now as I do, this is exactly what it feels like (to me): some artificial change in plot to satisfy some demand from part of the audience. People wanted to separate the pair and romance Jaheira - people got it.
    (Well can be that I am just paranoid after BW's later games)
    Wait, the Jahiera romance was fan service? She was the most obnoxious, intolerable, annoying character in BG1. The biggest surprise to me in BG2 was that I actually liked Jahiera-- a surprise I didn't discover for several months because I reflexively kicked her out at the first opportunity I got in every run because I still had so much residual hatred left over from BG1.

    Viconia, sure. An Imoen romance definitely would have been fan service. Hell, a romanceable Alora would have caused some particularly exciteable heads to explode. But my subjective impression from BG message boards back in the day is Jahiera didn't have anywhere near the following of those ladies.
    SomeSort said:


    For the first, Jahiera's bio says she was born during the Tethyrian cival war, which started in 1347 DR. Baldur's Gate starts in 1369 DR, (check the dates on your journal entries), making Jahiera 22 at the oldest. Charname is stated to be 20 at the start of the saga. According to the dates and biographical information provided by the game itself, the age gap is 0-2 years.

    Sure. And if we add "time of troubles" to the scheme we will realize Charname is 10 years old.

    Timeline in the game is the last thing we can rely upon and I would not take it at a face value.
    Huh? Where does it say that the Bhaalspawn were conceived and born during the Time of Troubles? Aluando's prophecies say that Bhaal foresaw his death and prepared for it in advance. Those prophecies are over a thousand years old and would have been known to Bhaal, to boot.

    The idea that all the bhaalspawn were conceived and born during the Time of Troubles is untenable, no matter what timeline you want to use. There's simply no amount of time that will produce one bhaalspawn who is a young human and another who is a mature dragon who already has offspring that are themselves mature dragons.

    But, you know, if Bhaal had been seeding the realms with his progeny for centuries in anticipation of his demise, that becomes much more plausible.
    SomeSort said:


    #1: Assume the bio is wrong and Jahiera is much older than Charname.

    There are so many inconsistent dates in the game, and enough banters from Khalid and Jaheira indicating very intensive work as Harpers (not to mention Jaheira's life in the Circle before that), that this is the only reasonable assumption.
    I don't think you get to be a final arbiter of reasonableness. Personally, I think if there are three assumptions, and only one of them requires directly contradicting actual word-of-God canon evidence, it's a stretch to call that one "the only reasonable assumption".
    SomeSort said:


    #2: Assume Khalid is an old friend of Gorion's, and Jahiera, as his bride, simply got included because it'd be too awkward to say "they're an old friend and also that really young tart he just married".

    That would be a very heavy headcanoning, since there are no slightest hints to support the idea - no age difference indicated anywhere in the banters, supporting text or even portraits.
    I get the impression that the longer-lived races don't actually spend much time talking about age discrepencies in their relationships with third parties. I welcome any evidence to the contrary.
    SomeSort said:


    #3: Assume Gorion's "old friends" remark is not a reference to Khalid and Jahiera in particular, but rather a euphamistic way of saying that they are Harpers, members of the secret organization which Gorion refers to as old friends.

    Another heavy headcanonig, since it directly contradicts Gorion's words " it is imperative that you would go to DAI and find my old friends - Khalid and Jaheira".

    If any of that assumption helps to you - great! To me nothing here sounds convincing. Or necessary: falling for a beautiful older women (especially half-elf - age should not be that obvious) is good enough for me. For CHARNAME.
    It doesn't directly contradict those words. English is a very flexible language, and words have layers and shadows of meaning. It's not the slightest bit implausible to me that Gorion might have a habit of referring to the harpers in general as "his old friends". That seems like exactly the sort of idiosyncratic familiarity that people actually exhibit in real conversation.

    I work for an online outfit that employs about 60 people. I've met 40 or so of them personally, and I generally have a couple conversations a year with most of them. Nonetheless, anytime I refer to any of these other people, I'm generally saying things like "I have a buddy who...".

    An example: I have a buddy who worked at Pixar and did character design on Wall-E. Granted, I've met this guy twice, have spent probably a grand total of four hours speaking to him one-on-one, and I really only know him because we're both employed by the same company, but still... in casual conversation, it's "I have a buddy who..."
    You see, THIS here is the problem - I am totally fine with the idea that Charname is crazy about Jaheira since the moment they have met in FAI. What feels wrong for me is the fact that Jaheira suddenly falls in love practically near her husband's still worm body. Ok, this is an uncalled exaggeration, but Jaheira's grief was so intense with all these promises of vengeance - and suddenly it all means nothing.

    I do not mind Charname to be in love with Jaheira at all, but a month (or even three moths) of running around Athkatla in a constant presence of each other does not sound to me as enough time for a person in a deep sorrow about lost "love of her life" to fall in love again. I simply can not get over time/dialog tones inconsistency.
    The fire that burns brightest burns quickest. If we believe that Jahiera is as old as the developers actually tell us she is, that means she married Khalid extremely young (and extremely quickly), especially by half-elf standards. So there's a bit of a track record there already.

    I mean, what we're observing isn't even outside the range of actual grieving cycles we see from actual, real-life people. There are people who are married within a year of being widowed. There are people who marry someone they met three months ago. Even absent the whole "spending every single waking moment in life-or-death situations with someone" aspect, which... I'll be honest, if someone literally saved me from being decapitated by an enraged ogre, that might have some knock-on effects on how I felt about them.

    It's fast, for sure. But allowing for the abstraction that any game is going to take with the concept of time, it's not unreasonably so. Hell, it's not even the most implausible timeline involved in one of the three romances a male charname could have undertaken. Do I need to bring up how Aerie's romance ends?
    ThacoBell
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 265
    Jaheria
    Mirandel said:

    Play it as you like, but horny widow is not my Jaheira

    Good, because that's not my Jaheira either.

    "Horny widow"?

    You HAVE played the romance and actually READ it, haven't you?

    To take a different tack, what WOULD be an acceptable amount of time for you so as to not be "so soon"?
    ThacoBell
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 639
    Jaheria
    Okay, let's all take a deep breath and a sip of an adult beverage of your choosing.

    The Jaheira romance bothered me the first time I played through it for many of the reasons here (I was human, she's half-elf, so she's older but I would die of old age sooner) and a couple others. But over time it's grown on me, partly because the writing is the best of the romances, but also because of Jaheira's character development.

    It seemed pretty clear to me that K&J did not have the healthiest relationship but not the worst. I suspect that over time she would have lost respect for him and, well, we all know what happens then.

    Keep in mind, adventurers in Faerun don't have the biggest life expectancy. I suspect that it is understood that multiple marriages due to widow(er)hood are not uncommon, as it is here in places with poor healthcare or chaos from war. Or, for that matter, everywhere on Earth two centuries ago due to disease and hygiene.

    Also, even with a compressed timeline, it can be difficult to finish this romance before facing Irenicus, so maybe the speed of things is simply necessary for gameplay.

    It still feels a little odd, I'll grant you, but each of the three romances for males in vanilla BG2 feel odd in some way.
    SomeSortAerakar
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,088
    Viconia
    @tbone1

    "but each of the three romances for males in vanilla BG2 feel odd in some way"

    They are odd, all three.
    But I suspect that's because they wrote the characters, (and they wrote good characters), but not the characters you would write if "romance" was the main point of the story.

    I think the thing with Jaheira is not only that it's so fast after Khalid, but there was no sign of it in BG.
    Most people I would have thought would have some inkling they fancied someone, even if that person was strictly out of bounds. A bit of day dreaming, a bit of imagining.
    As it stands, Khalid is conveniently got rid of and then it's like a switch gets turned to on/go.
    That's not so realistic IMO.



    MirandelAerakar
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 228
    edited June 30
    Viconia


    You HAVE played the romance and actually READ it, haven't you?

    I did play it, though, it was long ago and without mods (if it matters). Personally think Aerie's romance is superior to both mentioned, but that's not the point. "Horny" is - again - uncalled for, but this is how much timing can bother.


    To take a different tack, what WOULD be an acceptable amount of time for you so as to not be "so soon"?

    Years. (yes, plural) She is a half-elf, after all - her memory of emotions is supposed to be sharp.
    I do understand, that we do not have that much time by the plot design. And that practically for every event and character in the game we have to somehow mask\correct\ignore major and minor contradictions here and there. The question each time is what do you count as "too much" personally.
    SomeSort said:


    But my subjective impression from BG message boards back in the day is Jahiera didn't have anywhere near the following of those ladies.

    Did you have an impression back then that everyone wanted Imoen to be alive after Spellhold? But beta-testers did and she is alive.
    As I said - "fan-service" part well can be my paranoia. But that paranoia is based on experience and degree of disbelieve I feel in such a character development.
    SomeSort said:


    Aluando's prophecies say that Bhaal foresaw his death and prepared for it in advance.

    Oj... Kilometers of text in hundreds of discussions. Sorry, I am from the side that does not believe in a god, periodically sneaking out of his plane to conceive yet another mortal progeny. Too much contradiction in FR lore and supporting books.

    No, I can not bridge that gap coherently, so, all I do - is ignoring timeline for the case. Not the first game that did not pay attention to the lore.
    SomeSort said:


    It's fast, for sure. But allowing for the abstraction that any game is going to take with the concept of time, it's not unreasonably so.

    Well said. And this is all about each particular abstraction that each particular gamer can tolerate or ignore. For me - timing of Jaheira's romance is unacceptable. I can not squint enough to make it work. For someone else "unacceptable" is unnatural stats for NPC (like Coran's Dex 20) which they simply have to correct to be able to play. One can totally ignore urgency of Chapter 2 in BG2 - and another is turning internet upside down to find a mod downplaying that urgency.

    It's all individual and someone else 's "workarounds" never actually work.

    The only reason I joined conversation is the public assumption that those who voted for Viconia romance here are hating Jaheira because "how dare the woman fall in love again". A very misleading and insulting assumption in line with classical "if you do not like some black character - you are a racist". It's not the case - some simply unable to get over timing, other find it OOC in general. No one is attacking human's (and women's in particular) rights to love or writing of the romance. Viconia wins in my books simply for reliability of her story.
    SomeSortAerakar
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 711
    Jaheria
    Wow, 50/50 split!

    I went with Jaheira simply because she seems to be the natural choice of Charnames I usually play with (elven archers or swashbucklers, human crusaders). If I played a neutral or evil alignment, or chose a fighter, bard, mage type or cleric, I'd likely choose Viccy. Both are great romances.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    edited June 30
    Jaheria

    @tbone1
    They are odd, all three.
    But I suspect that's because they wrote the characters, (and they wrote good characters), but not the characters you would write if "romance" was the main point of the story.

    I think the thing with Jaheira is not only that it's so fast after Khalid, but there was no sign of it in BG.
    Most people I would have thought would have some inkling they fancied someone, even if that person was strictly out of bounds. A bit of day dreaming, a bit of imagining.
    As it stands, Khalid is conveniently got rid of and then it's like a switch gets turned to on/go.
    That's not so realistic IMO.

    I do agree with this. And not just the lack of hints, BG2 Jahiera is a completely different person from BG1 Jahiera. Which is a good thing, because BG1 Jahiera is awful, awful, awful, awful, awful. Even when I go back and replay now, knowing that Jahiera is one of my favorite characters and my preferred romance in BG2, dragging her with me in the BG1 portion feels like a self-inflicted wound.

    It's a flaw I'm willing to overlook largely because BG1 isn't really known for very much in the way of characterization of any sort. So all characterization is going to differ from BG1 to BG2, insofar as BG2 characterization is plentiful and BG1 characterization is sparse.
    Mirandel said:


    You HAVE played the romance and actually READ it, haven't you?

    I did play it, though, it was long ago and without mods (if it matters). Personally think Aerie's romance is superior to both mentioned, but that's not the point. "Horny" is - again - uncalled for, but this is how much timing can bother.
    I'm not meaning to attack, so pardon if this whole conversation feels / has felt attacky. I'm a big believer in the importance of headcanon to an open-ended story-based game like BG2, and I wouldn't want to suggest that any interpretations were "right" or "wrong". Even less so that anyone's *emotional reactions* were "right" or "wrong".

    With that said, I'm curious why the timing of Jahiera's romance is such a dealbreaker, but Aerie's is fine and dandy despite even bigger timing issues. After all, we have plenty of examples of widows who process their grief and move on relatively quickly, especially given extraordinary circumstances, (e.g. spending every waking moment engaged in life-and-death situations with a person who has repeatedly saved you, belonging to an order who believes that death is a natural stage of life and a profession where death is commonplace, etc.)

    I mean, we can feel free to judge them for it all we want. But it's at least a thing that some people actually do. What we don't have, however, is any example of
    someone gestating a baby in two weeks, giving birth on the battlefield, and then carrying that infant around in their backpack while they go to do battle with a demigod.


    Again, not saying you're wrong for preferring Aerie. All three romances have plenty to recommend them and all will have their fans. I'm just curious why if wonky timelines are such a problem Jahiera's is insurmountable but Aerie's is not. In terms of sheer believability, Jahiera's scores infinitely higher simply because it doesn't require the suspension of any universal laws.

    Edit to add:
    The only reason I joined conversation is the public assumption that those who voted for Viconia romance here are hating Jaheira because "how dare the woman fall in love again".
    I do appreciate this, though, and it's a good reminder that it's best not to assume motivations on the part of someone who disagrees.
    ThacoBellAerakar
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 263
    @Mirandel
    I feel the need to mention that Banes fallback plan (Iyachtu Xvim) was born before the time of troubles and even became active before.

    Also, why wouldn't Bhaal sneek out? It is not that he had much to do back then..
    Otherwise he would have created a *much* better plan than his attempted to breed half of Ferûn..
    On the other hand, during the couple of month he was alive during the time of troubles, he should have been too busy to possibly sire all these children...


    On topic: After some thinking, I do not think the romances are rushed per se.
    Every day is a fight to survive and under such circumstances it is not so weird that romantic bonds are formed quicker, you could be dead tomorrow after all.
    And it also makes sense that there are no hints in BG1, after all charname was much more of a child back then (imho the story of BG1 is a bit a story about growing up..) and Jaheira *had* Khaleed.
    And Viconia jsut reached the surface and was a bit weirded out anyways..

    Never forget that BG2 assumed that you took Dynaheir and Khaleed with you, which means that charname also lost friends to Irenicus (plus the abduction of Immy). Jaheira and he can bond over their grief.

    Viconia on the other hand may already be a tad smitten with charname before, but it takes an eternity for her to admit such feelings after all...
    AerakarBalrog99
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 228
    edited June 30
    Viconia
    SomeSort said:


    With that said, I'm curious why the timing of Jahiera's romance is such a dealbreaker, but Aerie's is fine and dandy despite even bigger timing issues. After all, we have plenty of examples of widows who process their grief and move on relatively quickly, especially given extraordinary circumstances, (e.g. spending every waking moment engaged in life-and-death situations with a person who has repeatedly saved you, belonging to an order who believes that death is a natural stage of life and a profession where death is commonplace, etc.)

    I mean, we can feel free to judge them for it all we want. But it's at least a thing that some people actually do. What we don't have, however, is any example of

    someone gestating a baby in two weeks, giving birth on the battlefield, and then carrying that infant around in their backpack while they go to do battle with a demigod.


    Again, not saying you're wrong for preferring Aerie. All three romances have plenty to recommend them and all will have their fans. I'm just curious why if wonky timelines are such a problem Jahiera's is insurmountable but Aerie's is not. In terms of sheer believability, Jahiera's scores infinitely higher simply because it doesn't require the suspension of any universal laws.

    It IS interesting, you are right - such a different interpretation of possible and impossible.

    If you are asking why getting over dead husband in a month sounds impossible for me but I am Ok with a full pregnancy and child birth is 2 weeks - it's plot vs game mechanic. 2 weeks pregnancy is like fireball - it's magic. Yes, denies the law of nature, but does not contradict anything in the story. Nothing to fret over. Getting over dead husband - that's character changing (sorry, can not call it "development") - a very particular character! - and bound to the story.


    Yes, sure, there are widows who can re-marry literally before the corpse of previous husband gets cold, but I do not see Jaheira as one of them. Jaheira is not "just a widow" - she is Jaheira - first trustworthy person my CHARNAME met, old friend of Gorion, an experienced adventurer with a long active life, someone faithful to friends and - of course - to her love, which she chose (we know from UB that if she does not want someone, she simply refuses). She loved Khalid, it was an example of happy couple compare to poor Kivan.

    Without romance I do not see much difference in Jaheira's character from BG1to BG2 (even in SoD). And THAT character simply can not forget her love in a matter of a couple months.

    For me she had to "go Kivan" until Irenicus is dead and only after that be open to other possibilities. Not because she is vengeful but because it would give resolution.

    So, it's not like "situation impossible per se" but a total OOC because of timing for established character. (Falling for the youngster is another story and secondary to the timing)

    Now, Aerie looks (to me) believable at every level (even if a bit out of genre with baby complication). It is exactly as you described - love out admiration in extraordinary circumstances. She was in a big trouble, you rode in - a shining prince on a white horse - and saved the day. She, her uncle, her home are saved by your heroics. A king of cliche but perfect ground for the love story. 2 week pregnancy does not ruin the story. (And our history is full of examples nomadic moms - from tribes to very civilized wifes following their husbands on all sort of expeditions - from military to scientific)

    Hence, Aerie is believable to me, but Jaheira - impossible.
    Post edited by Mirandel on
    SomeSorttbone1ArtonaAerakar
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,088
    Viconia
    It strikes me that both the Jaheira and the Aerie relationships are somewhat exploitative of Charname.
    Frankly if one of my sons came home with either of them I'd be somewhat sceptical.

    Tell them there were plenty more fish in the sea and what about that nice young woman Nalia........ and she has an inheritance. :D




    tbone1AerakarBalrog99
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    Jaheria

    Though I can certainly understand how some would just see her as abusive, and not wish to deal with the mess that she is, and she is a mess, I can also understand how some might see a different side and want to try to draw that side out.

    Agreed. To me, every one of Viconia's annoying habits is learned behavior. She treats you the way she learned to treat people from a lifetime of experience. She's rude and she's cruel because that's what was necessary to survive, a lesson that had been repeatedly reinforced. She repeatedly tests you because she has very good reason not to trust someone, and so she demands really compelling evidence to overcome that.

    Her romance falls a bit flat to me because of how fan-servicey it is, ("the exotic woman with a portrait based off a literal porn star who is quick to expound on her extensive training in the erotic arts" is pretty blatantly pandering to the adolescent male gamer that has historically been assumed to be a developer's base, IMO). But it's still interesting beyond that, and I think the developers plumbed the right spaces during the course of the romance.

    I'll also say I get pretty annoyed by how moralistic BG2 is about sex, and Viconia is a big part of that. Clearly in the BG2 worldview, sex is evil and dirty and corrupt, which means that the evil/corrupt character must revel in it and the good/pure character must immediately end your romance if you take her up on her offer for it. (It's a world where "How could you dare have sex with me after I asked you to have sex with me? I thought you loved me!" apparently isn't a ridiculous non-sequitur.)

    Which is another (unintentional) point in favor of Jahiera; being neutral, she's freed from any baggage that comes from the developers' moralistic views of sex. You can either have it with her or not have it with her and that's all fine, because the relationship is a lot more than a series of conversations with sex-for-pleasure (evil) or sex-for-procreation (good) as an end-goal.
  • AttalusAttalus Member Posts: 148
    Viconia
    Arcanis said:



    Though, the REAL question you should ask yourself is:
    Why exactly am I not aiming for Neera, Aerie or that girl that Bioware tried to kill of and finally has a finished romance mod?

    Agree here. I have played the Immie Romance and it is really well-written, as well as hilarious in a few places. I tried to play Nalia's Romance, because she is one of my all-time faves but couldn't get it to work. I'm sticking to Neera for the foreseeable future. Now if somebody would do an Annah or Fall-From-Grace or Aribeth mod... :)

    Aerakar
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 144
    edited June 30
    Viconia
    Jaheira's a nice lady and all, and without doubt is the most rewarding female NPC romance all told, but I always feel very uncomfortable about stepping into Khalid's shoes, especially such a short time after him, y'know. Regardless of what Jaheira thinks it just doesn't work for me.

    Am romancing Vic at the moment and I really like the writing. As an evil character Viccy is very misunderstood, perhaps most of all by herself. She's a monster, but also a victim of misfortune. As mentioned her behaviour is primarily acquired by her upbringing, so it's nice that eventually you can question her on her views and perhaps steer her towards a less self-nullifying existence.

    And I agree she does conform a bit to the 1970s view of drow females, but why not? That was the original template for them after all. It's good to go a bit retro now and again.

    And yes, a Nalia romance would have been grand :) I would've liked being the lord of the keep by marriage, or at least a very strong romantic relationship.
    Aerakar
  • inkblowoutinkblowout Member Posts: 16
    edited June 30
    Many people are questioning Jaheria's romance, so I thought I might chime in as well.

    The reason why I thought her romance was good simply because how interesting it was building up. Starting as friends to become lovers. What bothered me is how Khalid is affected by her actions. Sure Khalid is dead but there is a thing that exists called "respecting the dead".

    Sure their marriage may have been unhappy, (according to the book.) but is it fair to Khalid? It's obvious he cared about her since they won't part ways in BG1 and he's torn apart when Jaheria dies during battle and vice versa. I know for some people it takes a short time to get over their lovers' death, but how her dreams and talks about him... then showing interest in me.... it makes me assume that she doesn't care about him too much as I think she would. So why should she care about me when they have met in a short time compared with Khalid?

    I just don't think the Jaheria romance doesn't make it fair for Khalid how I'd concider him as a friend of the PC... if I didn't care about him, than I'd have no problems with romancing her.

    This is pretty much the reason why I started to concider Viccy as well... Viccy can be really mean yes... but only towards you because she gave you crap but she realizes that you are the only one that treated her well unlike other NPCs whereas it's a insult contest from both sides.

    Overall both romances have their negatives. (Viccy is mean and Jaheria dips on Khalid too quickly imo which makes it unfair for him.) but that's the beauty of it.. 2 great romances but they aren't prefect which leaves you thinking. I never had to choice between romances before which is a great thing.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,630
    Jaheria
    @inkblowout That assumes that Khalid would not wish for Jaheira to find happiness again after his death.

    @SomeSort I'm sorry what? Moralistic about sex? Aerie breaks off the romance because she rushed into a sexual relationship and realized after the fact that she wasn't ready. She doesn't even blame charname, fully admitting it was her choice and she pushed herself too far too quickly. There is nothing moralistic about that, some people aren't casual about sex, and some people are. I see nothing in the game that comments about or even hints that sex is in any way bad.
  • inkblowoutinkblowout Member Posts: 16
    ThacoBell said:

    @inkblowout That assumes that Khalid would not wish for Jaheira to find happiness again after his death.

    Well I didn't mean it in that perspective, Khalid would want the best for Jaheria. I'm saying as PC... it could mean it isn't fair as a friend to take his girl away since his man is gone. It feels weird...
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    edited July 1
    Jaheria
    ThacoBell said:

    I'm sorry what? Moralistic about sex? Aerie breaks off the romance because she rushed into a sexual relationship and realized after the fact that she wasn't ready. She doesn't even blame charname, fully admitting it was her choice and she pushed herself too far too quickly. There is nothing moralistic about that, some people aren't casual about sex, and some people are. I see nothing in the game that comments about or even hints that sex is in any way bad.

    I'm referring to the heavy-handed Madonna/whore overtones in the contrast between Good Aerie, Evil Viconia, and their respective views on (and reactions to) sex. They might as well be virtual avatars of the complex.

    Edit: Not just when you have sex with them. Their reactions to the Phaere storyline are classic Madonna/whore, while Jahiera again manages to carve out a functional middle-ground.
    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,630
    Jaheria
    SomeSort said:

    ThacoBell said:

    I'm sorry what? Moralistic about sex? Aerie breaks off the romance because she rushed into a sexual relationship and realized after the fact that she wasn't ready. She doesn't even blame charname, fully admitting it was her choice and she pushed herself too far too quickly. There is nothing moralistic about that, some people aren't casual about sex, and some people are. I see nothing in the game that comments about or even hints that sex is in any way bad.

    I'm referring to the heavy-handed Madonna/whore overtones in the contrast between Good Aerie, Evil Viconia, and their respective views on (and reactions to) sex. They might as well be virtual avatars of the complex.

    Edit: Not just when you have sex with them. Their reactions to the Phaere storyline are classic Madonna/whore, while Jahiera again manages to carve out a functional middle-ground.
    Their reactions are different, but that dies not mean there is a moral determination between them.
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