@SomeSort "I'm glad this doesn't misrepresent my entire post by picking out one tiny detail and pretending I didn't say any of the other stuff at all. Because that would be arguing in bad faith." My apologies. it was not my intent to misrepresent your post. I was flippant about it, but that was the impression that I got from your post.
@Skatan "I am following the thread's purpose, which is to rank NPC vs NPC. This means Minsc is compared to other NPC's who would for me compete to the same slot in a party, and that is fighter-types. Like I mentioned, whatever Minsc can do, some other NPC can do better (except Wilson)."
Unless I'm mistaken, you also said you were comparing similar NPCs. My argument was that Fighters and Rangers aren't that similar. FIghters will typically specialize in 1 or 2 weapons. A ranger will have far more that they can use competently, as well several special abilities. Its like comparing a machete to a survival knife.
"Edit: Btw, again I am not saying thieves are weak. I am saying Yoshi is the comparably least strong NPC of the game."
I'm also saying that because Yoshi is thief, he is comparably one of the strongest NPCs in the game.
"Assuming your significant other isn't mentally ill, it shouldn't be too taxing to simply be attentive."
Of course it shouldn't be..........however being made aware of the shortcomings in the Arsenal defence as they have Steve Bold on the staff so why don't they use his experience and although Arsene Wenger is a fantastic manager defense has never been his strong point and you should never forget his good fortune inheriting the back four of Adams, Dixon, Winterburn, Keown coupled with Seaman in goal from George Graham which was the foundation of their never to be equaled unbeaten season and earned them the nickname of the "invincibles" ect. ect...... for the hundred and fifth time does tend to make the attention wander.
Equally, discussing at length the relative merits of Anomen, wearing the gauntlets of Dexterity of course, as a front line fighter when he is only capable of one attack/round compared to a pure class fighter who can achieve superior apr and whether his clerical advantages begin to fall off late game as a clerics HA are not that great when you get past a certain level compared to whirlwind attack but then you have to take into consideration his ability to destroy undead and throw that in the mix ect. ect. ect..........for the hundred and fifth time is fascinating for a person who has never played BG.
...I'm not sure I follow, are you saying football is boring? Or just that people go overboard? Technically obsesdive behaviour and badgering people about it qualifies as illness I think.
Also, what kind of person hasn't played BG with the EEs around?
Unless I'm mistaken, you also said you were comparing similar NPCs. My argument was that Fighters and Rangers aren't that similar. FIghters will typically specialize in 1 or 2 weapons. A ranger will have far more that they can use competently, as well several special abilities. Its like comparing a machete to a survival knife.
You can't really spin the Rangers' lack of Grandmastery as an advantage here. If you think being able to put two stars into five weapons is an advantage, then Korgan is at worst as good as Minsc, because he can do that just as readily as Minsc can.
On the other hand, if you think the ability to put five stars into two weapons is an advantage, then Korgan can do that and Minsc cannot, so Korgan clearly has an advantage.
When Korgan can do everything Minsc can do and Minsc *cannot* do everything Korgan can do, then Korgan is the better NPC. (Really, the best argument for Minsc over Korgan would be Armor of Faith + Hardiness + Defender of Easthaven tanking, since he's the best "stock" NPC for that job. But even if you frame it in terms of who is better at tanking, Korgan has the superior rage and the shorty saves.)
I love how people go on about the shorty saves like they are all powerful. They are only truly useful in BG1 and the early game of BG2 but by midgame BG2 and into ToB they aren't really gaining you all of that much. it gets Mazzy or Keldorn a couple of points on a couple of saves over Minsc at best by level 16 or 17. Not including anything gained from their gear. it's just not that impressive in a fair portion of BG2 and practically meaningless in ToB.
Korgan can't wield the Flail of Ages, the Mace of Disruption or the Daystar, or Celestial Fury. Minsc can do all that and still swap to two handers. Meanwhile Korgan pumps points into war hammers. He doesn't have to but warriors can so much more from Crom Faeyr than a ranger ever would, but a ranger gains diversity that a warrior would never possess. The problem is you're comparing apples to oranges. Yes they both hitters and yeah one is a tank but they both do unique different things. The only way this discussion could get better is if someone pitched an idea about giving Dorn a sword and board. Dorn is a squish ball DPS and he's not meant to tank. He deals damage and he deals lots of it and there are plenty of other characters designed to tank and he's not one of them. He loves crossbows for spreading poison weapon on multiple casters and he uses two handers because he can still wear crossbows and swap easily.
Back on track, Korgan is a tank who can dual wield for insane damage late game on certain fights. Minsc is a DPS who can go two-handers or longbows or dual wield a variety of niche situational weapons depending on the situation. Neither is better than the other, they're both great! Being able to one shot an arm of undead is amazing early game and not to be discounted. Being frank, the undead crypt for Korgan/Edwin's quest is a nightmare on higher difficulties where strategy begins to matter. Clearing that room without azure edge, daystar, or disruption was a massive pain.
So really you should be comparing Minsc to all the good warriors. And last time I checked his berserk, it had the same mechanics as berserker enrage and in EE you still got to keep control of him (I never use him so I couldn't give you specifics). I will agree that Mazzy and Kheldorn are better although I'm curious how Kheldorn does on LoB. I'll certainly get millage out of true sight, but dispel will be interesting.
His point is Korgan could eschew advancement of warhammers and just settle for specialization, or proficiency instead, so Minsc is only more versatile than 1 way you can build Korgan, which is not remotely an advantage.
I could say Korgan is better because maybe you take only one pip in every possible weapon with Minsc, and never reach specialization. Thats how bad this discussion is.
I love how people go on about the shorty saves like they are all powerful. They are only truly useful in BG1 and the early game of BG2 but by midgame BG2 and into ToB they aren't really gaining you all of that much. it gets Mazzy or Keldorn a couple of points on a couple of saves over Minsc at best by level 16 or 17. Not including anything gained from their gear. it's just not that impressive in a fair portion of BG2 and practically meaningless in ToB.
@fateless I'm not sure why you say this. The shorty save bonus remains throughout the game, so the +4 Mazzy gets from that remains a considerable advantage over Minsc right to the end of ToB (Keldorn obviously doesn't get a shorty bonus, though paladins get a +2 bonus). The shorty bonus is less noticeable in a party as buffs, dispels and general overwhelming power disguise the weaknesses of party members. However, if you play solo no-reload then it's hard not to love those shorties .
Equally, discussing at length the relative merits of Anomen, wearing the gauntlets of Dexterity of course, as a front line fighter when he is only capable of one attack/round compared to a pure class fighter who can achieve superior apr and whether his clerical advantages begin to fall off late game as a clerics HA are not that great when you get past a certain level compared to whirlwind attack but then you have to take into consideration his ability to destroy undead and throw that in the mix ect. ect. ect..........for the hundred and fifth time is fascinating for a person who has never played BG.
Anomen is not tied to 1 APR, so not sure why you keep repeating this. He's a dualed fighter with the half APR from level 7 and another half ARP from specialization (maces/slings) and he can continue to put points as he levels up as well.
@Skatan "I am following the thread's purpose, which is to rank NPC vs NPC. This means Minsc is compared to other NPC's who would for me compete to the same slot in a party, and that is fighter-types. Like I mentioned, whatever Minsc can do, some other NPC can do better (except Wilson)."
Unless I'm mistaken, you also said you were comparing similar NPCs. My argument was that Fighters and Rangers aren't that similar. FIghters will typically specialize in 1 or 2 weapons. A ranger will have far more that they can use competently, as well several special abilities. Its like comparing a machete to a survival knife.
"Edit: Btw, again I am not saying thieves are weak. I am saying Yoshi is the comparably least strong NPC of the game."
I'm also saying that because Yoshi is thief, he is comparably one of the strongest NPCs in the game.
I'm not directly comparing rangers to fighters (or knives to machetes), I am comparing NPCs to NPCs, and therefore indirectly comparing the classes. Do you understand the difference? In that aspect Minsc falls down to the end of the list for me when compared to all other NPCs who would fit the same role.
I think this discussion is interesting but it would be even more interesting if you stated which you yourself think compete for the same slots, ie the tank/DPS slots in a party or whatever you call it, instead of just refuting my points and saying Minsc pwns.
I asked i my last post but you never answered, so do you really think that Minsc is stronger than Korgan, Mazzy, Dorn, Jaheira, Anomen or any other NPC that fit the role of [high surviviability/high dmg output]? If yes, I think it would be very interesting to read your thoughts on the matter since I cannot understand it. EDIT: I mean this sincerely and not sarcastically. Can you elaborate on why you think Minsc is better and compare to the other NPCs directly? Example: Do you play smaller parties thus needing versatility? Do you hoard items and switch weapons for every single encounter to maximize the dmg output? Do you play with a gazillion of difficulty enhancing mods that make Minsc shine for some reason? I am truly curious.
So you post some very personal and not really substantiated claims, and when someone replies with facts to that you call them silly? A rather odd way of discussion.
Minsc does have one or two advantages over Mazzy and Korgan, mainly that of being a spellcaster and thus can wear the Amulet of Power early before the iMoD or Black Dragon Scales are reasonably available. And the ability to use stealth is pretty nice. That said, he almost certainly deserves the title of weakest NPC in my opinion, or Yoshimo. Minsc because, as others said, for almost any role, there's a strict upgrade. Heavy-armor tank? Korgan, Mazzy, Jaheira, Mr. S., are all upgrades in one way or another. Scout? Valygar is strictly better. Ranged DPS? Mazzy and Korgan and Mr. S., again, due to GM vs Specialization. Yoshimo is somewhat shafted for being a thief in the part of the game where thieves are weakest: far too weak to go into melee, backstabs are hard to get, his trap setting is awful to begin with, and you never get to game-breaking stuff like spike trap.
@Skatan Sure I'll share my thoughts on it. Korgan is probably better at axes than Minsc. Mazzy is better with shortbows than Minsc. They are specialists, they are better at what they do than every other NPC, but that one thing is all they can do. While Mazzy and Korgan and Sarevok are limited to being amazing at 1 or 2 weapons tops, Minsc can be good at all of them. Try to take axe Korgan ranged? No good. Melee Mzzy, not amzing. Minsc can use Longbows, Axes, Maces, Flais, Two handed Swords, you name it. And while he isn't the best NPC at any one weapon, he is sufficient with all of them. What if you bow Mazzy is dealing with creatures with piercing resistance? She is sunk, while Minsc can simply switch to his blunt weapon. Your tank Korgan can't reach an enemy? That SAME Minsc can switch to his Longbow. Minsc is great Character to give multiple weapon types or the bouns vs x weapons to. He gets spells to buff himself. He can literally handle any situation with a little planning. That is his great strength.
TLDR; I will take Korgan or Mazzy for specific purposes. But I will take Minsc for ALL situations. I've played most of my games without even weapon mastery, let alone grand mastery and I don't miss it, because any one of my NPCs can handle a multitude of situations.
Korgan and Mazzy aren't specialists, they're MASTERS. Oh, Korgan can technically throw an axe just fine.
And you completely ignored my restriction that Minsc can't specialize, just like you're ignoring that Korgan and Mazxy don't have to go for 2 GMs. Its an asset that they can, but all pips after you get them are yours to place.
The actual reality is that Korgan and Mazzy have more versatility regarding pips, they can do things Minsc cannot, not vice versa.
As people are discussing Minsc, would like to ask this question.
Does anybody else find it really hard to stop him getting hurt?
A long time ago I wanted to get him through to the end to see the epilogue (no internet). TOB was a nightmare, he was always rushing in to fight and getting so injured I ended up turning off his AI and basically carrying him through the game at the back out of trouble.
So now I never use him for the game and that's fine. But I always have to get him out of CI, (can't just leave him and Jaheira, that would be evil), and the same thing happens. It's like he is totally brainless (which is great RP wise but those potions are expensive for you at the start of the game).
Korgan and Mazzy aren't specialists, they're MASTERS. Oh, Korgan can technically throw an axe just fine.
And you completely ignored my restriction that Minsc can't specialize, just like you're ignoring that Korgan and Mazxy don't have to go for 2 GMs. Its an asset that they can, but all pips after you get them are yours to place.
The actual reality is that Korgan and Mazzy have more versatility regarding pips, they can do things Minsc cannot, not vice versa.
I ignored no such thing, Minsc CAN get specialization in every weapon. And if you have Korgan and Mazzy go for a spread like you would Minsc, they lose their only advantage. At the same proficiency level, Minsc flat out BEATS Mazzy and Korgan. His divine spells give him an edge that the other two cannot match witout adding extra proficiencies.
@UnderstandMouseMagic His bad dex cripples his tanking ability unless you give him the dex gloves. If he is STILL taking hits left and right afterward, he may be getting swarmed too much, or you have really bad luck with him.
As people are discussing Minsc, would like to ask this question.
Does anybody else find it really hard to stop him getting hurt?
He does seem to need more healing than, say, Anomen in my experience. His dexterity is 16 in BG2, which is nice, but he tends to not use shields, which in early BG2 makes a difference.
@Skatan When your argument devolves down to, "Korgan is stronger than Minsc because Minsc only spends 1 of 2 points in every weapon specialization instead of the possible 2 he could," then yes, you're just being silly. For the record Minsc, IMO, is stronger than Jaheira in terms of raw damage. He hits harder and has access to a better selection of weapons, gains more thaco, and can dual wield easier without penalty. I think Jaheira is pathetic damage but I get it, she's not meant for damage, she's meant to tank and more importantly be utility.
For the record Jaheira is worse damage than Korgan, but is slightly more durable, but Korgan can front line tank anything because Jaheira doesn't enrage. Honestly, I have both right now and they fight alongside Dorn and a lvl 9 berserker/mage, and I let Korgan tank if you call it that way more than Jaheira, who is mostly relegated to a back line healer who sometimes is permitted to use her staff mace because it keeps her out of harms way. I only memorize one iron bark and use the other spell slot for insect swarm still, and I don't like eatting up ironbark hits when I want to save them for emergency situations that require spur of the moment, uninterrupted casting.
Anyhow, Minsc is really good, he has powerhouse stats at the beginning of the game and whether you're coming from BG1 or starting a BG2 fresh run, he's the meat you need. He competes with Jan, hexxat(with a lower case h), Nalia, Anomen, Yoshimo, Korgan, Dorn and Jaheira. Whatever you do you need him to get off the ground and you can keep him because he hits hard and often, no matter what he's doing. Meta game long term no, you might not want to keep him, but of everyone listed above, Korgan fights with most groups, and Dorn requires fealty and 2 reputation points right off the bat, and is probably not an option for any good play through. Everyone else is weak compared to him
Late game Minsc struggles to compete with Mazzy, Kheldorn, and Valygar, but early game Kheldorn is locked behind sewer exploration on higher difficulties, Mazzy is locked behind Shadow Temple, and Valygar is locked behind the Sphere (you encounter a group of shades on the way to unlock him). This might not matter on core rules but on higher difficulties it does.
Wrath is absolutely right to differentiate between the early and late games. Minsc is a great character in many respects, but by the time you hit BG2's midpoint and have multiple strength-boosting items in your party as well as enough XP to max out a warrior's APR, singleclass rangers like Minsc are hopelessly outclassed by ranger/clerics in the same way that singleclass fighters are hopelessly outclassed by, well, fighter/anythings. But in BG1, Minsc's 18/93 strength and two points in dual-wielding make him a much-needed melee powerhouse (though he would be even stronger as a ranger/cleric).
@Skatan Sure I'll share my thoughts on it. Korgan is probably better at axes than Minsc. Mazzy is better with shortbows than Minsc. They are specialists, they are better at what they do than every other NPC, but that one thing is all they can do. While Mazzy and Korgan and Sarevok are limited to being amazing at 1 or 2 weapons tops, Minsc can be good at all of them. Try to take axe Korgan ranged? No good. Melee Mzzy, not amzing. Minsc can use Longbows, Axes, Maces, Flais, Two handed Swords, you name it. And while he isn't the best NPC at any one weapon, he is sufficient with all of them. What if you bow Mazzy is dealing with creatures with piercing resistance? She is sunk, while Minsc can simply switch to his blunt weapon. Your tank Korgan can't reach an enemy? That SAME Minsc can switch to his Longbow. Minsc is great Character to give multiple weapon types or the bouns vs x weapons to. He gets spells to buff himself. He can literally handle any situation with a little planning. That is his great strength.
TLDR; I will take Korgan or Mazzy for specific purposes. But I will take Minsc for ALL situations. I've played most of my games without even weapon mastery, let alone grand mastery and I don't miss it, because any one of my NPCs can handle a multitude of situations.
Korgan can weild both the dwarwen thrower for a really hard-hitting ranged and throwing axes. Mazzy can melee very well indeed with her high AC, GM, saving throws and being a fighter. Korgan with berzerker rage and Mazzy with short sword of mask +4 (available right after starting if you want to) and shield of harmony for example is all the tanking power you ever need IMHO.
But one thing you keep repeating is that Mazzy, Korgan etc are limited to one or two weapon cat's when they aren't. @DreadKhan already replied to that above, so won't say that again, but he's right of course. If you are facing piercing resistant enemies than just switch to a blunt weapon. Being a fighter means the NPC get a measly -2 THAC0 or whatever when using weapons they are not proficient in. Sure, they lose the APR but considering how few times that is a bother I personally wouldn't say it makes the pure fighter NPCs worse than the ranger. Mazzy can just as easily go for a blunt weapon category as well btw. You don't HAVE TO put pips in the categories she has at start. But of course you already now that.
The only limitations here is for non-fighters, since the fighter NPC can be just as versatile without losing the edge, as you call it. Sure, Minsc has a few fairly redundant spells that any diviner in the party can do better ('cept AoF) but that doesn't make him better than the others IMHO.
@Skatan When your argument devolves down to, "Korgan is stronger than Minsc because Minsc only spends 1 of 2 points in every weapon specialization instead of the possible 2 he could," then yes, you're just being silly.
I have seriously no idea what you are talking about here. Did I ever say that? Please quote me and state from which of my arguments you pieced together this quote/statement.
For the record Minsc, IMO, is stronger than Jaheira in terms of raw damage. He hits harder and has access to a better selection of weapons, gains more thaco, and can dual wield easier without penalty. I think Jaheira is pathetic damage but I get it, she's not meant for damage, she's meant to tank and more importantly be utility.
Why does he do more damage than Jaheira, you mean dual weilding? Since everyone get to 19+ STR after some time, their actual damage per attack is the same since both Jaheira and Minsc stop at specialization. But yes, Jaheira takes a loooong time if you want to make her dual weild. Personally I never do it since it's not really needed once you get to HLA's anyways. There are very good quarterstaffs, scimitars and decent clubs in the game making Jaheira have all the weapons she will ever need. Her spells give her strenghts that Minsc cannot compete with of course with his rather late and weak spell casting. Personally, I rank her much higher than Minsc since her effectiveness (the combo of survivability and damage output) far outweighs Minsc's.
The rest of your post seem to be in line with my own opinions mostly, so not commenting on that. [spoiler]
For the record Jaheira is worse damage than Korgan, but is slightly more durable, but Korgan can front line tank anything because Jaheira doesn't enrage. Honestly, I have both right now and they fight alongside Dorn and a lvl 9 berserker/mage, and I let Korgan tank if you call it that way more than Jaheira, who is mostly relegated to a back line healer who sometimes is permitted to use her staff mace because it keeps her out of harms way. I only memorize one iron bark and use the other spell slot for insect swarm still, and I don't like eatting up ironbark hits when I want to save them for emergency situations that require spur of the moment, uninterrupted casting.
Anyhow, Minsc is really good, he has powerhouse stats at the beginning of the game and whether you're coming from BG1 or starting a BG2 fresh run, he's the meat you need. He competes with Jan, hexxat(with a lower case h), Nalia, Anomen, Yoshimo, Korgan, Dorn and Jaheira. Whatever you do you need him to get off the ground and you can keep him because he hits hard and often, no matter what he's doing. Meta game long term no, you might not want to keep him, but of everyone listed above, Korgan fights with most groups, and Dorn requires fealty and 2 reputation points right off the bat, and is probably not an option for any good play through. Everyone else is weak compared to him
Late game Minsc struggles to compete with Mazzy, Kheldorn, and Valygar, but early game Kheldorn is locked behind sewer exploration on higher difficulties, Mazzy is locked behind Shadow Temple, and Valygar is locked behind the Sphere (you encounter a group of shades on the way to unlock him). This might not matter on core rules but on higher difficulties it does.
... Sure, yeah, Minsc is good early-game BG2, not gonna dispute that. But What's Minsc's claim to fame? High strength? Useful early, but by midgame, there's like 3 belts available, of which only two are really useful. One is obtainable right in the promenade, at a pretty penny admittedly. His second is decent dex and con, and allows him to be run frontline without the gloves of dex, allowing their use for Anomen or Keldorn or Korgan. But as someone else noted, those lost 2ac hurt his survivability a ton, though he can potentially use mace and shield to fix that.
But the lack of any useful kit ability or special abilities is really what kills him. Jaheira is a fighter that summons spellcasters and fire elementals and fixes her dearth of saving throws with Chaotic Commands. Keldorn and Korgan both laugh at mages in their own ways. Mazzy has saved battles with a Remove fear (though that's admittedly sloppy play on my part), and can self-haste and self-heal. She can also destroy battles with Tuigan's if she's not required to front line, if that's an ability, and she has shorty saves on top of everything. Valygar is almost a straight upgrade of Minsc, iirc, doing everything he can except with the ability to end fights with a single backstab, and three more actually useful level 3 spells. Sarevok is lol. Rasaad is a ridiculous end-game tank, both physical and magic, while being able to reliably deal damage. Anomen's really a cleric and barely a fighter and barely qualifies for this comparison So I struggle to find a good reason to bring Minsc to Spellhold and beyond, except that I'm lazy. The closest anyone else gets to this level of non-specialization is Nalia, but she's still a mage with intelligence over 10, so we can't really say she's weak.
@Skatan My point is that if Mazzy and Korgan take the same approach as Minsc and spread their pips around, their one edge is lost. They need to get grandmastery in SOMETHING to stand out at all from the other warriors. Minsc can use those 3 pips to use more weapons that are better in more situations. Minsc's greatest strength is his versatility.
Korgan has a very strong Berserk ability, and Mazzy still gets some Truesword abilities if she eschews GM. They can also mix, IE take GM in their preferred weapon and settling after that for specialization. Korgan was considered a high power NPC even with the old garbage GM from vanilla.
I love how people go on about the shorty saves like they are all powerful. They are only truly useful in BG1 and the early game of BG2 but by midgame BG2 and into ToB they aren't really gaining you all of that much. it gets Mazzy or Keldorn a couple of points on a couple of saves over Minsc at best by level 16 or 17. Not including anything gained from their gear. it's just not that impressive in a fair portion of BG2 and practically meaningless in ToB.
Shorty saves are *amazing*. Majorly OP. And you've actually got it backwards-- the higher level you reach, the more powerful they become.
Consider at fighter level 1, the difference between a shorty and non-shorty save vs. spell is 12 vs. 17. A save vs. spells of 12 gives you a 60% chance of saving, while a save vs. spells of 17 gives you a 15% chance. If you're the target of 100 spells, the shorty will eat 60 and the tall warrior will eat 85, so the tall warrior is eating 41% more spells.
Now consider at fighter level 15. The shorty has a save of 2 and the tall warrior has a save of 7. Facing 100 spells, the tall warrior will eat 30 and the shorty will eat 5. The tall warrior is now eating 400% more spells than the shorty. Once both characters hit level 17 and their saves cap, the tall warrior is eating infinitely more spells.
In short, the lower your saves get, the more valuable each bonus to your saves becomes. So until the tall warrior finally reaches a point where his saves naturally reach 1 (or lower in case of save penalties), the shorty retains a massive advantage. And even when the tall warrior gets his saves down to 1, the shorty has a big advantage in that he does it naturally without a single stitch of gear, leaving more of the good stuff to distribute among the rest of the party.
No, shorty warriors are tremendous in BG2. Just send them wherever because they're pretty much immune to all save-or-else spells and effects.
Korgan can't wield the Flail of Ages, the Mace of Disruption or the Daystar, or Celestial Fury. Minsc can do all that and still swap to two handers. Meanwhile Korgan pumps points into war hammers. He doesn't have to but warriors can so much more from Crom Faeyr than a ranger ever would, but a ranger gains diversity that a warrior would never possess.
Huh? For the first part, Korgan most definitely *CAN* wield FoA, MoD, Daystar, or Celestial Fury. Off the top of my head, the only weapon Minsc can wield that Korgan can't is Azuredge. (Meanwhile, Korgan gets Dwarven Thrower and Minsc doesn't.)
For the second: you're basically saying "Korgan doesn't have to put points into hammers, but putting points into hammers is strictly superior, so he does. He could just put two points into every weapon instead if he wanted to, but that would make him a worse character, so he doesn't. But he could. Meanwhile, Minsc is forced to put two points into every weapon, the thing that Korgan could do but doesn't because it's worse, and this is why Minsc is as good as Korgan."
I mean, if putting two points into a bunch of weapons and wasting a ton of proficiency pips (because you can only wield up to two weapons at a time) is something that you think is good, *Korgan can do that*. The fact that you *don't* typically do that with Korgan only demonstrates that it's an inferior strategy, and the fact that Korgan isn't *forced* to do it is what makes Korgan so great.
Minsc does have one or two advantages over Mazzy and Korgan, mainly that of being a spellcaster and thus can wear the Amulet of Power early before the iMoD or Black Dragon Scales are reasonably available. And the ability to use stealth is pretty nice. That said, he almost certainly deserves the title of weakest NPC in my opinion, or Yoshimo. Minsc because, as others said, for almost any role, there's a strict upgrade. Heavy-armor tank? Korgan, Mazzy, Jaheira, Mr. S., are all upgrades in one way or another. Scout? Valygar is strictly better. Ranged DPS? Mazzy and Korgan and Mr. S., again, due to GM vs Specialization. Yoshimo is somewhat shafted for being a thief in the part of the game where thieves are weakest: far too weak to go into melee, backstabs are hard to get, his trap setting is awful to begin with, and you never get to game-breaking stuff like spike trap.
The Amulet of Power advantage is definitely real, though it's also kind of niche and specific, especially since the vampire lair is optional anyway. And while it's an advantage over Mazzy and Korgan, it doesn't help Minsc at all in comparisons against Keldorn and Valygar, who are also superior.
I agree that Yoshi is shafted because he gets written out before he has a chance to do anything, but it feels unfair to hold that against him in discussions of relative power. And anyway, even with that in mind he's still very solid for the time you have him given the OP nature of Bounty Hunter traps, and if those aren't your thing you can just dual-class him to Fighter.
Comments
My apologies. it was not my intent to misrepresent your post. I was flippant about it, but that was the impression that I got from your post.
@Skatan "I am following the thread's purpose, which is to rank NPC vs NPC. This means Minsc is compared to other NPC's who would for me compete to the same slot in a party, and that is fighter-types. Like I mentioned, whatever Minsc can do, some other NPC can do better (except Wilson)."
Unless I'm mistaken, you also said you were comparing similar NPCs. My argument was that Fighters and Rangers aren't that similar. FIghters will typically specialize in 1 or 2 weapons. A ranger will have far more that they can use competently, as well several special abilities. Its like comparing a machete to a survival knife.
"Edit: Btw, again I am not saying thieves are weak. I am saying Yoshi is the comparably least strong NPC of the game."
I'm also saying that because Yoshi is thief, he is comparably one of the strongest NPCs in the game.
"Assuming your significant other isn't mentally ill, it shouldn't be too taxing to simply be attentive."
Of course it shouldn't be..........however being made aware of the shortcomings in the Arsenal defence as they have Steve Bold on the staff so why don't they use his experience and although Arsene Wenger is a fantastic manager defense has never been his strong point and you should never forget his good fortune inheriting the back four of Adams, Dixon, Winterburn, Keown coupled with Seaman in goal from George Graham which was the foundation of their never to be equaled unbeaten season and earned them the nickname of the "invincibles" ect. ect...... for the hundred and fifth time does tend to make the attention wander.
Equally, discussing at length the relative merits of Anomen, wearing the gauntlets of Dexterity of course, as a front line fighter when he is only capable of one attack/round compared to a pure class fighter who can achieve superior apr and whether his clerical advantages begin to fall off late game as a clerics HA are not that great when you get past a certain level compared to whirlwind attack but then you have to take into consideration his ability to destroy undead and throw that in the mix ect. ect. ect..........for the hundred and fifth time is fascinating for a person who has never played BG.
At least I used to go to the Arsenal.
Also, what kind of person hasn't played BG with the EEs around?
On the other hand, if you think the ability to put five stars into two weapons is an advantage, then Korgan can do that and Minsc cannot, so Korgan clearly has an advantage.
When Korgan can do everything Minsc can do and Minsc *cannot* do everything Korgan can do, then Korgan is the better NPC. (Really, the best argument for Minsc over Korgan would be Armor of Faith + Hardiness + Defender of Easthaven tanking, since he's the best "stock" NPC for that job. But even if you frame it in terms of who is better at tanking, Korgan has the superior rage and the shorty saves.)
Back on track, Korgan is a tank who can dual wield for insane damage late game on certain fights. Minsc is a DPS who can go two-handers or longbows or dual wield a variety of niche situational weapons depending on the situation. Neither is better than the other, they're both great! Being able to one shot an arm of undead is amazing early game and not to be discounted. Being frank, the undead crypt for Korgan/Edwin's quest is a nightmare on higher difficulties where strategy begins to matter. Clearing that room without azure edge, daystar, or disruption was a massive pain.
So really you should be comparing Minsc to all the good warriors. And last time I checked his berserk, it had the same mechanics as berserker enrage and in EE you still got to keep control of him (I never use him so I couldn't give you specifics). I will agree that Mazzy and Kheldorn are better although I'm curious how Kheldorn does on LoB. I'll certainly get millage out of true sight, but dispel will be interesting.
I could say Korgan is better because maybe you take only one pip in every possible weapon with Minsc, and never reach specialization. Thats how bad this discussion is.
Lack of GM is straight up a disadvantage.
I think this discussion is interesting but it would be even more interesting if you stated which you yourself think compete for the same slots, ie the tank/DPS slots in a party or whatever you call it, instead of just refuting my points and saying Minsc pwns.
I asked i my last post but you never answered, so do you really think that Minsc is stronger than Korgan, Mazzy, Dorn, Jaheira, Anomen or any other NPC that fit the role of [high surviviability/high dmg output]? If yes, I think it would be very interesting to read your thoughts on the matter since I cannot understand it.
EDIT: I mean this sincerely and not sarcastically. Can you elaborate on why you think Minsc is better and compare to the other NPCs directly? Example: Do you play smaller parties thus needing versatility? Do you hoard items and switch weapons for every single encounter to maximize the dmg output? Do you play with a gazillion of difficulty enhancing mods that make Minsc shine for some reason? I am truly curious.
TLDR; I will take Korgan or Mazzy for specific purposes. But I will take Minsc for ALL situations. I've played most of my games without even weapon mastery, let alone grand mastery and I don't miss it, because any one of my NPCs can handle a multitude of situations.
And you completely ignored my restriction that Minsc can't specialize, just like you're ignoring that Korgan and Mazxy don't have to go for 2 GMs. Its an asset that they can, but all pips after you get them are yours to place.
The actual reality is that Korgan and Mazzy have more versatility regarding pips, they can do things Minsc cannot, not vice versa.
Does anybody else find it really hard to stop him getting hurt?
A long time ago I wanted to get him through to the end to see the epilogue (no internet). TOB was a nightmare, he was always rushing in to fight and getting so injured I ended up turning off his AI and basically carrying him through the game at the back out of trouble.
So now I never use him for the game and that's fine.
But I always have to get him out of CI, (can't just leave him and Jaheira, that would be evil), and the same thing happens.
It's like he is totally brainless (which is great RP wise but those potions are expensive for you at the start of the game).
@UnderstandMouseMagic His bad dex cripples his tanking ability unless you give him the dex gloves. If he is STILL taking hits left and right afterward, he may be getting swarmed too much, or you have really bad luck with him.
For the record Jaheira is worse damage than Korgan, but is slightly more durable, but Korgan can front line tank anything because Jaheira doesn't enrage. Honestly, I have both right now and they fight alongside Dorn and a lvl 9 berserker/mage, and I let Korgan tank if you call it that way more than Jaheira, who is mostly relegated to a back line healer who sometimes is permitted to use her staff mace because it keeps her out of harms way. I only memorize one iron bark and use the other spell slot for insect swarm still, and I don't like eatting up ironbark hits when I want to save them for emergency situations that require spur of the moment, uninterrupted casting.
Anyhow, Minsc is really good, he has powerhouse stats at the beginning of the game and whether you're coming from BG1 or starting a BG2 fresh run, he's the meat you need. He competes with Jan, hexxat(with a lower case h), Nalia, Anomen, Yoshimo, Korgan, Dorn and Jaheira. Whatever you do you need him to get off the ground and you can keep him because he hits hard and often, no matter what he's doing. Meta game long term no, you might not want to keep him, but of everyone listed above, Korgan fights with most groups, and Dorn requires fealty and 2 reputation points right off the bat, and is probably not an option for any good play through. Everyone else is weak compared to him
Late game Minsc struggles to compete with Mazzy, Kheldorn, and Valygar, but early game Kheldorn is locked behind sewer exploration on higher difficulties, Mazzy is locked behind Shadow Temple, and Valygar is locked behind the Sphere (you encounter a group of shades on the way to unlock him). This might not matter on core rules but on higher difficulties it does.
But one thing you keep repeating is that Mazzy, Korgan etc are limited to one or two weapon cat's when they aren't. @DreadKhan already replied to that above, so won't say that again, but he's right of course.
If you are facing piercing resistant enemies than just switch to a blunt weapon. Being a fighter means the NPC get a measly -2 THAC0 or whatever when using weapons they are not proficient in. Sure, they lose the APR but considering how few times that is a bother I personally wouldn't say it makes the pure fighter NPCs worse than the ranger. Mazzy can just as easily go for a blunt weapon category as well btw. You don't HAVE TO put pips in the categories she has at start. But of course you already now that.
The only limitations here is for non-fighters, since the fighter NPC can be just as versatile without losing the edge, as you call it. Sure, Minsc has a few fairly redundant spells that any diviner in the party can do better ('cept AoF) but that doesn't make him better than the others IMHO.
The rest of your post seem to be in line with my own opinions mostly, so not commenting on that.
[spoiler] [/spoiler]
But the lack of any useful kit ability or special abilities is really what kills him. Jaheira is a fighter that summons spellcasters and fire elementals and fixes her dearth of saving throws with Chaotic Commands. Keldorn and Korgan both laugh at mages in their own ways. Mazzy has saved battles with a Remove fear (though that's admittedly sloppy play on my part), and can self-haste and self-heal. She can also destroy battles with Tuigan's if she's not required to front line, if that's an ability, and she has shorty saves on top of everything. Valygar is almost a straight upgrade of Minsc, iirc, doing everything he can except with the ability to end fights with a single backstab, and three more actually useful level 3 spells. Sarevok is lol. Rasaad is a ridiculous end-game tank, both physical and magic, while being able to reliably deal damage. Anomen's really a cleric and barely a fighter and barely qualifies for this comparison
My 2cp
Consider at fighter level 1, the difference between a shorty and non-shorty save vs. spell is 12 vs. 17. A save vs. spells of 12 gives you a 60% chance of saving, while a save vs. spells of 17 gives you a 15% chance. If you're the target of 100 spells, the shorty will eat 60 and the tall warrior will eat 85, so the tall warrior is eating 41% more spells.
Now consider at fighter level 15. The shorty has a save of 2 and the tall warrior has a save of 7. Facing 100 spells, the tall warrior will eat 30 and the shorty will eat 5. The tall warrior is now eating 400% more spells than the shorty. Once both characters hit level 17 and their saves cap, the tall warrior is eating infinitely more spells.
In short, the lower your saves get, the more valuable each bonus to your saves becomes. So until the tall warrior finally reaches a point where his saves naturally reach 1 (or lower in case of save penalties), the shorty retains a massive advantage. And even when the tall warrior gets his saves down to 1, the shorty has a big advantage in that he does it naturally without a single stitch of gear, leaving more of the good stuff to distribute among the rest of the party.
No, shorty warriors are tremendous in BG2. Just send them wherever because they're pretty much immune to all save-or-else spells and effects.
For the second: you're basically saying "Korgan doesn't have to put points into hammers, but putting points into hammers is strictly superior, so he does. He could just put two points into every weapon instead if he wanted to, but that would make him a worse character, so he doesn't. But he could. Meanwhile, Minsc is forced to put two points into every weapon, the thing that Korgan could do but doesn't because it's worse, and this is why Minsc is as good as Korgan."
I mean, if putting two points into a bunch of weapons and wasting a ton of proficiency pips (because you can only wield up to two weapons at a time) is something that you think is good, *Korgan can do that*. The fact that you *don't* typically do that with Korgan only demonstrates that it's an inferior strategy, and the fact that Korgan isn't *forced* to do it is what makes Korgan so great.
I agree that Yoshi is shafted because he gets written out before he has a chance to do anything, but it feels unfair to hold that against him in discussions of relative power. And anyway, even with that in mind he's still very solid for the time you have him given the OP nature of Bounty Hunter traps, and if those aren't your thing you can just dual-class him to Fighter.