@Skatan Sure I'll share my thoughts on it. Korgan is probably better at axes than Minsc. Mazzy is better with shortbows than Minsc. They are specialists, they are better at what they do than every other NPC, but that one thing is all they can do. While Mazzy and Korgan and Sarevok are limited to being amazing at 1 or 2 weapons tops, Minsc can be good at all of them. Try to take axe Korgan ranged? No good. Melee Mzzy, not amzing. Minsc can use Longbows, Axes, Maces, Flais, Two handed Swords, you name it. And while he isn't the best NPC at any one weapon, he is sufficient with all of them. What if you bow Mazzy is dealing with creatures with piercing resistance? She is sunk, while Minsc can simply switch to his blunt weapon. Your tank Korgan can't reach an enemy? That SAME Minsc can switch to his Longbow. Minsc is great Character to give multiple weapon types or the bouns vs x weapons to. He gets spells to buff himself. He can literally handle any situation with a little planning. That is his great strength.
TLDR; I will take Korgan or Mazzy for specific purposes. But I will take Minsc for ALL situations. I've played most of my games without even weapon mastery, let alone grand mastery and I don't miss it, because any one of my NPCs can handle a multitude of situations.
From personal experience, melee Mazzy is better than melee Minsc. Better HP, better THACO (because Fighter progression), better AC, much better saves, innate Haste, strength that's actually higher than Minsc's because of her innate spell. It takes a couple levels to get some free proficiency points, but at those low levels archery is still better than melee, anyway, so that's NBD.
And for the last time, Mazzy/Korgan/Sarevok are not "limited to being amazing at 1 or 2 weapons tops". If it's more your speed, they can be good at 8 weapons, instead. The reason everyone always builds them so they're amazing at 1 to 2 weapons tops is because, since you can only wield 1-2 weapons at a time, being amazing at 1-2 weapons tops is strictly superior to being pretty good at 8.
@Skatan My point is that if Mazzy and Korgan take the same approach as Minsc and spread their pips around, their one edge is lost. They need to get grandmastery in SOMETHING to stand out at all from the other warriors. Minsc can use those 3 pips to use more weapons that are better in more situations. Minsc's greatest strength is his versatility.
Not going past two pips makes fighters lose their shorty save bonuses? Makes Korgan lose his berserk and Mazzy lose her 18 dex and innate haste? Mazzy and Korgan have tons of benefits beyond just Grandmastery, even if Grandmastery is their biggest benefit.
My point is the fact that everyone goes for Grandmastery with them shows that Grandmastery is a superior strategy, so holding up the fact that Minsc can't get it as some kind of perverse advantage is weird.
(My other point is it isn't just Minsc vs. Mazzy and Korgan and Sarevok. It's also Minsc vs. Valygar and Keldorn and Jahiera, and even if we accept the framing that *losing the option to get Grandmastery* somehow makes a character more versatile, this still doesn't explain why we'd take Minsc over those three.)
@SomeSort "Better HP, better THACO (because Fighter progression)" Um, Rangers advance as fighter classes. Minsc's THACO is only worse in the event of mastery and above, not because fighters advance faster. Minsc and Mazzy's hp will be the same as well, due to both getting fighter progression and identical CON scores. Minsc also gets divine spells, so he isn't out on special abilities either.
"*losing the option to get Grandmastery* somehow makes a character more versatile,"OH OH, please explain to me why only using two weapons is more versatile than using several. Because taking grandmastery forces you to do so.
"My point is the fact that everyone goes for Grandmastery with them shows that Grandmastery is a superior strategy, so holding up the fact that Minsc can't get it as some kind of perverse advantage is weird. "
I wasn't aware that majority=right. To me it just shows that dps is simply vastly overrated in general. I mean, heck I've seen people argue that clerics are bad because their DPS is never at fighter levels, which is weird considering that clerics can buff and heal. Mazzy and Korgan and Sarevok are the best at SPECIALIZED DPS. I am saying that Minsc is more VERSATILE. Being versatile does not make you weaker than a DPS cannon, it makes you take a different role.
I believe Minsc can use plate, according to the tooltip, but Valygar can't. That's one difference between them. As for Minsc vs Korgan/Mazzy, the huge thing to being a fighter is grand master. Hell, it takes awhile to bring them online as dual wielders, which is the niche of rangers and blades who get that for free. Minsc can use a variety of weapons for a variety of situations. I hate using Anomen with 1 point in flails, because he never hits with his flail of ages. It just feels so much different with 2 points. Minsc can pump points into a variety of weapons and switch. He can go maces, axes, flails, some of the best weapons in the game, and do well.
The problem with Mazzy is she has 5 points in short bows, so you won't use a flail, ever. You'll never use a flail till 2 or 3 points and even then it's painful. That's the same reason you won't switch to other weapons with her. Hell it's painful to swap to short swords until you have a load of points in it, and that's the point. My berserker9/mage tried using the flail of ages without points to debuff various hard hitting NPC's and it was an epic fail. A dual class thaco is so pathetic compared to an equivalent exp warrior that wielding any weapon without points is painful. I just kept my Blade of Roses on and gave up.
Meanwhile I have Dorn. Dorn is pretty powerful but even if he was a Paladin or Paladin kit the same would apply. He has points in 2 handers, two-handed swords, halberds, and now he's working on spears. He can use any of them, whichever is better, or whatever the situation, he has about 3-4 weapons he swaps between.
Now apply this to Minsc. Minsc is free to spend points on flails, axes, or whatever. If I wanted Katanas I could go that route but that means I can't use Valygar on a Minsc play through. Having someone who can use Azure Edge, Flail of Ages, Mace of Disruption, hell even Daystar, those are all really awesome weapons. He can also use long bows and no one can make use of those.
Now, we should all admit something. Korgan and Minsc don't or probably shouldn't see the same play through. It's almost unfair to compare them to each other.
Lets also switch over to Nalia. The only reason you use her lame ass is if charname isn't a caster, and you're doing a 20 reputation play through in which Edwin will peace out. Edwin is -amazing- on good play throughs and the only reason to skip him for Nalia's pitiful ass is if you want to reach and maintain high rep and that's it.
Mastery is about twice as good as specialization, and if you're finding using a weapon at specialization is 'painful', well, Minsc is up the creek, because he can't master even. If using a shortsword on Mazzy at 3 pips is painful, this discussion is very much over.
Minsc should often have slightly less hp and a worse THAC0 as rangers gain levels pretty slowly vs a fighter.
Nalia has weak but not non-existant thief skills over Edwin, and she can fart around with a shortbow vs mooks. I don't think anyone however can sanely argue a wizard is weak in BG2.
Now, we should all admit something. Korgan and Minsc don't or probably shouldn't see the same play through. It's almost unfair to compare them to each other.
This thread is all about comparing NPCs to NPCs, so I think we should continue
@ThacoBell, thanks for the reply. I see your point, but let's just agree to disagree on this one. I think we both have made our points clear by now.
Now, we should all admit something. Korgan and Minsc don't or probably shouldn't see the same play through. It's almost unfair to compare them to each other.
This thread is all about comparing NPCs to NPCs, so I think we should continue
@ThacoBell, thanks for the reply. I see your point, but let's just agree to disagree on this one. I think we both have made our points clear by now.
Regarding the ranger/fighter THAC0 thing: rangers and fighters both get -1 THAC0 per level down to a minimum base THAC0 of 1, but rangers gain levels slightly slower, just like paladins. At most, they are 1 level behind a fighter and therefore their base THAC0 is at most 1 higher. Proficiencies also come into play, of course, but rangers and paladins do have slightly worse THAC0 due to gaining levels slightly slower.
Note that until EE came along, unmodded BG2's grandmastery was heavily nerfed, only giving +3 to hit and damage instead of +4 to hit and +5 to damage. Grandmastery also grants an extra half attack per round, widening the gap. Paladins, of course, get DUHM for higher STR (though Keldorn as an Inquisitor can cast no spells), and rangers get two free pips in dual-wielding, which effectively does give them slightly more flexibility--but only if you're dual-wielding (otherwise fighters and rangers get the same number of proficiencies per level).
Personally, I have trouble naming a weak character in BG2. Whenever I consider one of them, I just remember the awesome things they can do.
@SomeSort "Better HP, better THACO (because Fighter progression)" Um, Rangers advance as fighter classes. Minsc's THACO is only worse in the event of mastery and above, not because fighters advance faster. Minsc and Mazzy's hp will be the same as well, due to both getting fighter progression and identical CON scores. Minsc also gets divine spells, so he isn't out on special abilities either.
What is Korgan's base THACO when he has 3m experience points? What is Minsc's base THACO when he has 3m XP points? The answers, respectively, are 1 and 3. Notice how Korgan's THACO is two points lower.
Sure, at level-parity, rangers and fighters have the same THACO. But Rangers and Fighters are rarely at level parity because Rangers gain levels slower than Fighters. Assuming a similar XP total, the very last time Minsc and Korgan will have the same base THACO is from a narrow window between 1.20m XP and 1.25m XP. Korgan will then gain a THACO lead that he will hold up until Minsc reaches 3.9m XP and finally caps his THACO.
The same is true for HPs, except those don't ever cap so Mazzy will always have a slight edge.
Minsc gets divine spells, but they're garbage. Level 1 and 2 druid spells are famously bad. Level 3 druid spells are halfway decent when you first unlock them (though still far inferior to cleric spells), but terrible by the time Minsc gets them. Minsc misses Remove Fear, Sanctuary, DUHM, Animate Dead, Holy Smite, Remove Paralysis... basically all the low-level divine spells still worth casting past chapter 3 of SoA.
Really, all Minsc has going for him in the divine spell department is Armor of Faith, which doesn't cap out until he hits level 28, which comes at 6m XP. The other stuff is crap by the time he gets it. And Armor of Faith ain't got nothing on Mazzy's innate haste or Korgan's berserk.
"*losing the option to get Grandmastery* somehow makes a character more versatile,"OH OH, please explain to me why only using two weapons is more versatile than using several. Because taking grandmastery forces you to do so.
This is very easy. Grandmastery is *OPTIONAL*. If you don't want to take it, the game doesn't force you to.
Tell me which is more versatile. A character who can *EITHER* achieve grandmastery *OR* spread his points around, or a character who can *ONLY* spread his points around. The first character can do the thing the second character can do, but could also optionally do a different thing that the second character couldn't do. The ability to do more things is kind of the definition of versatility, no?
I believe Minsc can use plate, according to the tooltip, but Valygar can't.
Yes, this is true, but the advantage is negated by Valygar's better dexterity. Valygar has better AC in his default starting armor than Minsc has in Full Plate. Minsc matches Valygar with a ring of protection +1 and beats him by one point with a ring of protection +2, but usually around the time you're getting the RoP+2 you're also getting the Shadow Dragon Scale, and Valygar winds up matching Minsc in AC again.
And not only will Valygar's AC by the same as Minsc's in the best armor available, (at least until late enough in ToB that AC ceases to matter), but Valygar can stealth in his best armor and Minsc can't.
That's one difference between them. As for Minsc vs Korgan/Mazzy, the huge thing to being a fighter is grand master. Hell, it takes awhile to bring them online as dual wielders, which is the niche of rangers and blades who get that for free. Minsc can use a variety of weapons for a variety of situations. I hate using Anomen with 1 point in flails, because he never hits with his flail of ages. It just feels so much different with 2 points. Minsc can pump points into a variety of weapons and switch. He can go maces, axes, flails, some of the best weapons in the game, and do well.
The problem with Mazzy is she has 5 points in short bows, so you won't use a flail, ever. You'll never use a flail till 2 or 3 points and even then it's painful. That's the same reason you won't switch to other weapons with her. Hell it's painful to swap to short swords until you have a load of points in it, and that's the point. My berserker9/mage tried using the flail of ages without points to debuff various hard hitting NPC's and it was an epic fail. A dual class thaco is so pathetic compared to an equivalent exp warrior that wielding any weapon without points is painful. I just kept my Blade of Roses on and gave up.
My last Mazzy run saw her dual-wielding flails. You're right that I waited until I had 2 points in flail before switching to one, but I reached that by level 12, and before level 12 archery is generally superior, anyway. And then I wanted two points in dual-wielding before adding the second flail, but I reached that by level 18, and prior to level 18 shields and AC are so powerful that you're typically going to want those, anyway. (And if the loss of an APR because you're not dual-wielding bothers you, fear not-- Mazzy gets haste as an innate ability, so she can attack as many times per round with a single weapon as Minsc can with two.)
But the point is not that Minsc is inferior to every single other fighter in every single use-case. The point is that there exist no use-cases where Minsc is the optimal choice. Okay, fine, you want a dual-wielding melee dervish from day one, so maybe you don't take Mazzy. But there's still no reason to take Minsc over Valygar.
Hell, there's no reason to take Minsc over just grabbing Yoshimo and dual-classing him immediately. You get to assign all of his proficiency pips however you want, which more than offsets that two free points in dual-wielding Minsc gets as a ranger.
Minsc comes stock with 2 stars in maces and 2 stars in dual-wielding, (plus four pips wasted in 2-handed swords and long-bows-- wasted in this case because we assume we want a dual-wielder). Yoshimo from the minute you recruit him can get 2 stars in dual-wielding and two more stars in whatever weapon you want. And then he only needs 32k more XP to get another two stars spendable however you please.
You want a kickass flail dual-wielder? It takes Yoshimo just 250k XP to become a grandmaster in flails with two more points in dual-wielding. On the other hand, it takes Minsc nearly 1m XP just to become *SPECIALIZED* in flails.
Lets also switch over to Nalia. The only reason you use her lame ass is if charname isn't a caster, and you're doing a 20 reputation play through in which Edwin will peace out. Edwin is -amazing- on good play throughs and the only reason to skip him for Nalia's pitiful ass is if you want to reach and maintain high rep and that's it.
Or if you want to free up a party slot that would otherwise be devoted to a thief, since Nalia is perfectly capable of handling all thieving duties. When I rated the power of all vanilla NPCs in SoA and ToB, I had Nalia rated 2nd behind only Edwin.
Regarding the ranger/fighter THAC0 thing: rangers and fighters both get -1 THAC0 per level down to a minimum base THAC0 of 1, but rangers gain levels slightly slower, just like paladins. At most, they are 1 level behind a fighter and therefore their base THAC0 is at most 1 higher. Proficiencies also come into play, of course, but rangers and paladins do have slightly worse THAC0 due to gaining levels slightly slower.
Note that until EE came along, unmodded BG2's grandmastery was heavily nerfed, only giving +3 to hit and damage instead of +4 to hit and +5 to damage. Grandmastery also grants an extra half attack per round, widening the gap. Paladins, of course, get DUHM for higher STR (though Keldorn as an Inquisitor can cast no spells), and rangers get two free pips in dual-wielding, which effectively does give them slightly more flexibility--but only if you're dual-wielding (otherwise fighters and rangers get the same number of proficiencies per level).
Personally, I have trouble naming a weak character in BG2. Whenever I consider one of them, I just remember the awesome things they can do.
They all can do awesome things, sure. I once beat the game with a solo halfling bounty hunter with racial/class minimums in every stat. And to be honest, he actually wrecked, simply because traps are that OP. (Plus UAI / Vhailor's / Scrolls.)
With that said, some characters do many fewer awesome things than others. Like I said, I struggle to think of a use-case for Minsc where you wouldn't be much better served with at least one (and typically several) of Korgan, Mazzy, Keldorn, Valygar, Jahiera, Sarevok, or Yoshimo-dualed-to-Fighter.
@SomeSort "Tell me which is more versatile. A character who can *EITHER* achieve grandmastery *OR* spread his points around, or a character who can *ONLY* spread his points around. The first character can do the thing the second character can do, but could also optionally do a different thing that the second character couldn't do. The ability to do more things is kind of the definition of versatility, no? "
But you have to choose between them. Either grandmastery OR spread points around. If you spread points, you lose out on the fighter's best strength. A ranger with their points spread out is better than a fighter with their points spread out. The divine spells that a Ranger gets are quote helpful and NOT garbage, that just tells me that you don't utilize them well.
I'd say Korgan's Berserk is better than GM in many playthroughs. Berserkers were competetive with old GM, which was insultingly underpowered. So darn many immunities!
And I did a portion of the game solo, got Edwin and Viconia before Anomen ect.
Why don't you just use Viconia for Turn Undead? Is there something special about Anomen?
He blows them up. (It's the same for Aerie but takes longer to get there and I don't need another mage anyway)
Much easier to deal with than them running around with blue circles getting in the way.
(though TBH my current game is a bit of a mess. Started with one RP playthrough in mind then stopped, played through solo, went back to this game and now going through the motions to finish TOB but could really drop at least two NPC at current levels)
@SomeSort "Tell me which is more versatile. A character who can *EITHER* achieve grandmastery *OR* spread his points around, or a character who can *ONLY* spread his points around. The first character can do the thing the second character can do, but could also optionally do a different thing that the second character couldn't do. The ability to do more things is kind of the definition of versatility, no? "
But you have to choose between them. Either grandmastery OR spread points around. If you spread points, you lose out on the fighter's best strength. A ranger with their points spread out is better than a fighter with their points spread out. The divine spells that a Ranger gets are quote helpful and NOT garbage, that just tells me that you don't utilize them well.
Potion 1 cures poison or disease. Potion 2 only cures disease. Potion 1 is clearly more versatile, right? Because your argument here essentially boils down to "but if you use it to cure disease, then you didn't use it to cure poison, so it really wasn't any more versatile than the potion that only cures disease. In fact, somehow it's actually less versatile, because curing poison is much better than curing disease and by using it to cure disease you gave up its biggest strength."
As for the divine spells a ranger can get...
Level 1 Armor of Faith (already conceded) Bless (1 round to cast, 6 round duration, +1 to attack rolls... hardly even worth the action it costs and the effort to cast it, but not strictly speaking useless) Cure Light Wounds (I guess sometimes this makes resting until healed take less time) Detect Evil (garbage) Doom (actually pretty useful, but doesn't stack and you'll almost certainly have at least one other person who can cast it without wasting a valuable round of combat from one of your dedicated fighters) Engangle (great in BG1, but doesn't shut enemies down and offers a +3 save bonus, which makes it garbage in BG2) Shillelagh (garbage)
Level 2 Barkskin (theoretically not garbage, but a ranger with 3.6m XP casts it as well as a priest with 900k XP, so...) Charm Person or Mammal (great in BG1, but +3 save bonus means it's garbage in BG2) Find Traps (Can be useful on a stalker, though this is what you have Thieves for. If Minsc is wearing light enough armor to sneak around, he's got other problems to deal with.) Flame Blade (Garbage. Theoretically useful for troll-killing, but you're showered with fire damage weapons.) Goodberry (especially garbage) Know Alignment (garbage) Resist Fire and Cold (might be the best spell at this level, which is known as "damning with faint praise". Most useful if you plan on fireballing your own party.) Slow poison (great in BG1, but by BG2 poison is rare and you're flush with means to remove it)
Level 3 Call Lightning (great when outdoors in a game where rarely outdoors) Cure Disease (Could be great if enemies actually cast blindness or feeblemind. But they don't.) Cure Medium Wounds (See also: Cure Light Wounds) Dispel Magic (a spell whose success is based on caster level on the character type with the lowest caster level) Hold Animal (Is there a single animal in all of BG2 where this isn't a waste of time?) Invisibility Purge (Theoretically useful, but you'll have True Sight) Miscast Magic (actually kind of decent, though thumping mages with FoA is usually more productive) Protection from Fire (Again, only really useful for niche strategies such as fireballing your own party) Rigid Thinking (like Miscast Magic, theoretically potentially useful, but typically not worth the opportunity cost) Strength of One (by the time you get this you have so many strength items it's essentially a strength *penalty*. Even without strength items, this is *always* a strength penalty on Minsc.) Summon Insects (Miscast Magic with a save penalty and the single best feature of this spell level. Outclassed by the time you can get it, though.) Zone of Sweet Air (can be a nice quality-of-life thing if you love spamming Cloudkills and hate waiting for them to dissipate before saving.)
What am I underrating here? Again, "low-level Druid spells kind of suck" is the single biggest weakness of the Druid class, and Rangers are getting those same spells even later and casting them at a lower level.
Compared to Paladins (except for Inquisitors), Rangers miss out on Protection from Evil, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, DUHM, Hold Person, Silence 15', Animate Dead, Glyph of Warding, Holy Smite, and Remove Paralysis. Or, in other words, nearly every level 1-3 divine spell worth casting past the early stages of BG2.
(Paladins also get level 4 spells, so Defensive Harmony, Death Ward, Far Sight, Free Action, Holy Power, Lesser Restoration, Negative Plane Protection, and Protection from Evil 10'. Seriously, Ranger divine spellcasting is a joke.)
In theory, assuming equal level and stats, a Ranger with his points spread out will be better than a vanilla Fighter with his points spread out, sure. But (A) "assuming equal level" is dumb when one class specifically has slower level progression, (B) Korgan is not a vanilla fighter, (C) Mazzy is a vanilla fighter but gets innate bonuses like Haste and Strength that seriously trump Minsc's divine spellcasting, (D) both Korgan and Mazzy have preferable stat spreads based on the stat-boosting items readily available in chapter 2 of BG2, and (E) this does nothing to address the giant elephant in the room that is Valygar being a straight upgrade.
Edit: And to this point no one has even mentioned Minsc's penalty of only having two quick-item slots, though this is more of a QoL thing since the game pauses when you go into inventory anyway.
@SomeSort "Potion 1 cures poison or disease. Potion 2 only cures disease. Potion 1 is clearly more versatile, right? Because your argument here essentially boils down to "but if you use it to cure disease, then you didn't use it to cure poison, so it really wasn't any more versatile than the potion that only cures disease. In fact, somehow it's actually less versatile, because curing poison is much better than curing disease and by using it to cure disease you gave up its biggest strength.""
Except that your comparison is not accurate. Potion 1 only cures either disease or poison per playthrough, because choosing one exempts you from the other. So no, not really more versatile than the other potion.
Turn undead is dependent on alignment: evil clerics, instead of destroying undead, enslave them. They also fear and destroy paladins, but that's another matter.
And I did a portion of the game solo, got Edwin and Viconia before Anomen ect.
Why don't you just use Viconia for Turn Undead? Is there something special about Anomen?
He blows them up.
How come his Turn Undead works differently? I thought Turn Undead was the same for all priests.
Oh no, you are in for a treat.
Nothing imo, in the whole of BG, is as rewarding as walking into a crowd of undead (vampires, ghasts, zombies, wraiths, shadows ect.) and doing nothing but stand there and watching them all explode.
Of course it's so OP that it wrecks any sort of "gamesmanship", but oh so satisfying.
Actually the treat varies. Turn undead does different things at different levels. It initially fears, and as it levels up the lvl or type of undead it will explode slowly goes up as well. This is also true for evil priests who can't mind control vampires off the bat. A nifty ToB strat is to Wish summon 4 vampires, charm them, and use them as minions on certain encounters where the enemies aren't immune to level drain and watch them shred. I haven't tested it out myself but it sounds pretty broken.
Warrior vs Ranger (Korgan/Mazzy vs Minsc) - I will admit on paper druid spells for rangers look like shit and something that makes paladins amazing is DUHM, remove fear, and remove paralysis. That said, a warrior will almost always have better thaco and more HLA than a ranger. However I still think it's silly to compare Minsc to Korgan and Mazzy. You're comparing tanks vs damage. Minsc's job is never to take damage, it's not his design. His job is to deal damage. Honestly AC only matters for one, maybe 2 chars.
As for calling wizards bad, Nalia is garbage. Her only saving grace is the only other NPC mage who compares is Edwin. You only take her if you want 20 reputation.
@SomeSort you're so right about the spells. i use ranger casting for find traps almost exclusively, and zone of sweet air. which also means very very rarely at all.
Comments
And for the last time, Mazzy/Korgan/Sarevok are not "limited to being amazing at 1 or 2 weapons tops". If it's more your speed, they can be good at 8 weapons, instead. The reason everyone always builds them so they're amazing at 1 to 2 weapons tops is because, since you can only wield 1-2 weapons at a time, being amazing at 1-2 weapons tops is strictly superior to being pretty good at 8.
My point is the fact that everyone goes for Grandmastery with them shows that Grandmastery is a superior strategy, so holding up the fact that Minsc can't get it as some kind of perverse advantage is weird.
(My other point is it isn't just Minsc vs. Mazzy and Korgan and Sarevok. It's also Minsc vs. Valygar and Keldorn and Jahiera, and even if we accept the framing that *losing the option to get Grandmastery* somehow makes a character more versatile, this still doesn't explain why we'd take Minsc over those three.)
"*losing the option to get Grandmastery* somehow makes a character more versatile,"OH OH, please explain to me why only using two weapons is more versatile than using several. Because taking grandmastery forces you to do so.
"My point is the fact that everyone goes for Grandmastery with them shows that Grandmastery is a superior strategy, so holding up the fact that Minsc can't get it as some kind of perverse advantage is weird. "
I wasn't aware that majority=right. To me it just shows that dps is simply vastly overrated in general. I mean, heck I've seen people argue that clerics are bad because their DPS is never at fighter levels, which is weird considering that clerics can buff and heal. Mazzy and Korgan and Sarevok are the best at SPECIALIZED DPS. I am saying that Minsc is more VERSATILE. Being versatile does not make you weaker than a DPS cannon, it makes you take a different role.
The problem with Mazzy is she has 5 points in short bows, so you won't use a flail, ever. You'll never use a flail till 2 or 3 points and even then it's painful. That's the same reason you won't switch to other weapons with her. Hell it's painful to swap to short swords until you have a load of points in it, and that's the point.
My berserker9/mage tried using the flail of ages without points to debuff various hard hitting NPC's and it was an epic fail. A dual class thaco is so pathetic compared to an equivalent exp warrior that wielding any weapon without points is painful. I just kept my Blade of Roses on and gave up.
Meanwhile I have Dorn. Dorn is pretty powerful but even if he was a Paladin or Paladin kit the same would apply. He has points in 2 handers, two-handed swords, halberds, and now he's working on spears. He can use any of them, whichever is better, or whatever the situation, he has about 3-4 weapons he swaps between.
Now apply this to Minsc. Minsc is free to spend points on flails, axes, or whatever. If I wanted Katanas I could go that route but that means I can't use Valygar on a Minsc play through. Having someone who can use Azure Edge, Flail of Ages, Mace of Disruption, hell even Daystar, those are all really awesome weapons. He can also use long bows and no one can make use of those.
Now, we should all admit something. Korgan and Minsc don't or probably shouldn't see the same play through. It's almost unfair to compare them to each other.
Lets also switch over to Nalia. The only reason you use her lame ass is if charname isn't a caster, and you're doing a 20 reputation play through in which Edwin will peace out. Edwin is -amazing- on good play throughs and the only reason to skip him for Nalia's pitiful ass is if you want to reach and maintain high rep and that's it.
Minsc should often have slightly less hp and a worse THAC0 as rangers gain levels pretty slowly vs a fighter.
Nalia has weak but not non-existant thief skills over Edwin, and she can fart around with a shortbow vs mooks. I don't think anyone however can sanely argue a wizard is weak in BG2.
Also, can't Valygar use longbows?
@ThacoBell, thanks for the reply. I see your point, but let's just agree to disagree on this one. I think we both have made our points clear by now.
Note that until EE came along, unmodded BG2's grandmastery was heavily nerfed, only giving +3 to hit and damage instead of +4 to hit and +5 to damage. Grandmastery also grants an extra half attack per round, widening the gap. Paladins, of course, get DUHM for higher STR (though Keldorn as an Inquisitor can cast no spells), and rangers get two free pips in dual-wielding, which effectively does give them slightly more flexibility--but only if you're dual-wielding (otherwise fighters and rangers get the same number of proficiencies per level).
Personally, I have trouble naming a weak character in BG2. Whenever I consider one of them, I just remember the awesome things they can do.
Sure, at level-parity, rangers and fighters have the same THACO. But Rangers and Fighters are rarely at level parity because Rangers gain levels slower than Fighters. Assuming a similar XP total, the very last time Minsc and Korgan will have the same base THACO is from a narrow window between 1.20m XP and 1.25m XP. Korgan will then gain a THACO lead that he will hold up until Minsc reaches 3.9m XP and finally caps his THACO.
The same is true for HPs, except those don't ever cap so Mazzy will always have a slight edge.
Minsc gets divine spells, but they're garbage. Level 1 and 2 druid spells are famously bad. Level 3 druid spells are halfway decent when you first unlock them (though still far inferior to cleric spells), but terrible by the time Minsc gets them. Minsc misses Remove Fear, Sanctuary, DUHM, Animate Dead, Holy Smite, Remove Paralysis... basically all the low-level divine spells still worth casting past chapter 3 of SoA.
Really, all Minsc has going for him in the divine spell department is Armor of Faith, which doesn't cap out until he hits level 28, which comes at 6m XP. The other stuff is crap by the time he gets it. And Armor of Faith ain't got nothing on Mazzy's innate haste or Korgan's berserk. This is very easy. Grandmastery is *OPTIONAL*. If you don't want to take it, the game doesn't force you to.
Tell me which is more versatile. A character who can *EITHER* achieve grandmastery *OR* spread his points around, or a character who can *ONLY* spread his points around. The first character can do the thing the second character can do, but could also optionally do a different thing that the second character couldn't do. The ability to do more things is kind of the definition of versatility, no?
And not only will Valygar's AC by the same as Minsc's in the best armor available, (at least until late enough in ToB that AC ceases to matter), but Valygar can stealth in his best armor and Minsc can't. My last Mazzy run saw her dual-wielding flails. You're right that I waited until I had 2 points in flail before switching to one, but I reached that by level 12, and before level 12 archery is generally superior, anyway. And then I wanted two points in dual-wielding before adding the second flail, but I reached that by level 18, and prior to level 18 shields and AC are so powerful that you're typically going to want those, anyway. (And if the loss of an APR because you're not dual-wielding bothers you, fear not-- Mazzy gets haste as an innate ability, so she can attack as many times per round with a single weapon as Minsc can with two.)
But the point is not that Minsc is inferior to every single other fighter in every single use-case. The point is that there exist no use-cases where Minsc is the optimal choice. Okay, fine, you want a dual-wielding melee dervish from day one, so maybe you don't take Mazzy. But there's still no reason to take Minsc over Valygar.
Hell, there's no reason to take Minsc over just grabbing Yoshimo and dual-classing him immediately. You get to assign all of his proficiency pips however you want, which more than offsets that two free points in dual-wielding Minsc gets as a ranger.
Minsc comes stock with 2 stars in maces and 2 stars in dual-wielding, (plus four pips wasted in 2-handed swords and long-bows-- wasted in this case because we assume we want a dual-wielder). Yoshimo from the minute you recruit him can get 2 stars in dual-wielding and two more stars in whatever weapon you want. And then he only needs 32k more XP to get another two stars spendable however you please.
You want a kickass flail dual-wielder? It takes Yoshimo just 250k XP to become a grandmaster in flails with two more points in dual-wielding. On the other hand, it takes Minsc nearly 1m XP just to become *SPECIALIZED* in flails. Or if you want to free up a party slot that would otherwise be devoted to a thief, since Nalia is perfectly capable of handling all thieving duties. When I rated the power of all vanilla NPCs in SoA and ToB, I had Nalia rated 2nd behind only Edwin.
With that said, some characters do many fewer awesome things than others. Like I said, I struggle to think of a use-case for Minsc where you wouldn't be much better served with at least one (and typically several) of Korgan, Mazzy, Keldorn, Valygar, Jahiera, Sarevok, or Yoshimo-dualed-to-Fighter.
But you have to choose between them. Either grandmastery OR spread points around. If you spread points, you lose out on the fighter's best strength. A ranger with their points spread out is better than a fighter with their points spread out. The divine spells that a Ranger gets are quote helpful and NOT garbage, that just tells me that you don't utilize them well.
Is there something special about Anomen?
(It's the same for Aerie but takes longer to get there and I don't need another mage anyway)
Much easier to deal with than them running around with blue circles getting in the way.
(though TBH my current game is a bit of a mess. Started with one RP playthrough in mind then stopped, played through solo, went back to this game and now going through the motions to finish TOB but could really drop at least two NPC at current levels)
As for the divine spells a ranger can get...
Level 1
Armor of Faith (already conceded)
Bless (1 round to cast, 6 round duration, +1 to attack rolls... hardly even worth the action it costs and the effort to cast it, but not strictly speaking useless)
Cure Light Wounds (I guess sometimes this makes resting until healed take less time)
Detect Evil (garbage)
Doom (actually pretty useful, but doesn't stack and you'll almost certainly have at least one other person who can cast it without wasting a valuable round of combat from one of your dedicated fighters)
Engangle (great in BG1, but doesn't shut enemies down and offers a +3 save bonus, which makes it garbage in BG2)
Shillelagh (garbage)
Level 2
Barkskin (theoretically not garbage, but a ranger with 3.6m XP casts it as well as a priest with 900k XP, so...)
Charm Person or Mammal (great in BG1, but +3 save bonus means it's garbage in BG2)
Find Traps (Can be useful on a stalker, though this is what you have Thieves for. If Minsc is wearing light enough armor to sneak around, he's got other problems to deal with.)
Flame Blade (Garbage. Theoretically useful for troll-killing, but you're showered with fire damage weapons.)
Goodberry (especially garbage)
Know Alignment (garbage)
Resist Fire and Cold (might be the best spell at this level, which is known as "damning with faint praise". Most useful if you plan on fireballing your own party.)
Slow poison (great in BG1, but by BG2 poison is rare and you're flush with means to remove it)
Level 3
Call Lightning (great when outdoors in a game where rarely outdoors)
Cure Disease (Could be great if enemies actually cast blindness or feeblemind. But they don't.)
Cure Medium Wounds (See also: Cure Light Wounds)
Dispel Magic (a spell whose success is based on caster level on the character type with the lowest caster level)
Hold Animal (Is there a single animal in all of BG2 where this isn't a waste of time?)
Invisibility Purge (Theoretically useful, but you'll have True Sight)
Miscast Magic (actually kind of decent, though thumping mages with FoA is usually more productive)
Protection from Fire (Again, only really useful for niche strategies such as fireballing your own party)
Rigid Thinking (like Miscast Magic, theoretically potentially useful, but typically not worth the opportunity cost)
Strength of One (by the time you get this you have so many strength items it's essentially a strength *penalty*. Even without strength items, this is *always* a strength penalty on Minsc.)
Summon Insects (Miscast Magic with a save penalty and the single best feature of this spell level. Outclassed by the time you can get it, though.)
Zone of Sweet Air (can be a nice quality-of-life thing if you love spamming Cloudkills and hate waiting for them to dissipate before saving.)
What am I underrating here? Again, "low-level Druid spells kind of suck" is the single biggest weakness of the Druid class, and Rangers are getting those same spells even later and casting them at a lower level.
Compared to Paladins (except for Inquisitors), Rangers miss out on Protection from Evil, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, DUHM, Hold Person, Silence 15', Animate Dead, Glyph of Warding, Holy Smite, and Remove Paralysis. Or, in other words, nearly every level 1-3 divine spell worth casting past the early stages of BG2.
(Paladins also get level 4 spells, so Defensive Harmony, Death Ward, Far Sight, Free Action, Holy Power, Lesser Restoration, Negative Plane Protection, and Protection from Evil 10'. Seriously, Ranger divine spellcasting is a joke.)
In theory, assuming equal level and stats, a Ranger with his points spread out will be better than a vanilla Fighter with his points spread out, sure. But (A) "assuming equal level" is dumb when one class specifically has slower level progression, (B) Korgan is not a vanilla fighter, (C) Mazzy is a vanilla fighter but gets innate bonuses like Haste and Strength that seriously trump Minsc's divine spellcasting, (D) both Korgan and Mazzy have preferable stat spreads based on the stat-boosting items readily available in chapter 2 of BG2, and (E) this does nothing to address the giant elephant in the room that is Valygar being a straight upgrade.
Edit: And to this point no one has even mentioned Minsc's penalty of only having two quick-item slots, though this is more of a QoL thing since the game pauses when you go into inventory anyway.
Except that your comparison is not accurate. Potion 1 only cures either disease or poison per playthrough, because choosing one exempts you from the other. So no, not really more versatile than the other potion.
I thought Turn Undead was the same for all priests.
Nothing imo, in the whole of BG, is as rewarding as walking into a crowd of undead (vampires, ghasts, zombies, wraiths, shadows ect.) and doing nothing but stand there and watching them all explode.
Of course it's so OP that it wrecks any sort of "gamesmanship", but oh so satisfying.
Warrior vs Ranger (Korgan/Mazzy vs Minsc) - I will admit on paper druid spells for rangers look like shit and something that makes paladins amazing is DUHM, remove fear, and remove paralysis. That said, a warrior will almost always have better thaco and more HLA than a ranger. However I still think it's silly to compare Minsc to Korgan and Mazzy. You're comparing tanks vs damage. Minsc's job is never to take damage, it's not his design. His job is to deal damage. Honestly AC only matters for one, maybe 2 chars.
As for calling wizards bad, Nalia is garbage. Her only saving grace is the only other NPC mage who compares is Edwin. You only take her if you want 20 reputation.
you're so right about the spells. i use ranger casting for find traps almost exclusively, and zone of sweet air. which also means very very rarely at all.