Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit www.planescape.com to purchase and check for details. Planescape: Torment: Enhanced Edition Official Soundtrack is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

How does Sarevok actually intend to ascend to godhood?

[SPOILERS ahead]

Following Melissan/Amelyssan's explanation regarding how she betrayed Bhaal's trust in her to revive him, and instead seek to grasp all of Bhaal's essence in her to become a demigod, it seems that there are only 2 ways to ascend to godhood:

1) Quoting from Melissan: "After his death, I ALONE retained access to his essence. And my power grew as each one of his mortal children died, their divinity returning to the source." Which implies that, all the Bhaalspawns Sarevok killed actually goes back to a source that Sarevok had no access to.

2) The intervention of Solar who is able to grant a Bhaalspawn divinity at the end of TOB.

Now, we do not know if Sarevok had a Solar (or fallen Solar) to offer guidance. If we don't take option 2 into account, it seems that Sarevok acted on a misinterpretation of Alaundo's prophecy? Could it be that even if his plan had been a success - War between BG and AMN had resulted in a mass carnage and he had managed to kill off Charname, he would be like "WTF is going on? Why am I not God yet?" Unless there is another Bhaalist priestess that we are unaware of that could perhaps perform a ritual for Sarevok?

What do you guys think?

lolienAerakarronaldotypo_tillySkatanWandering_Ranger
«134

Comments

  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    Sarevok has thoroughly studied Alaundo's writings (see his own words and the dialogues during the return to Candlekeep episodes.) He knows he has to kill more bhaalspawns than just the protagonist.
    In the opening movie he kills his first bhaalspawn saying *I will be the last...and you will go first."
    Later in ToB he has conversations with the protagonists (provided you take him into party) which reveal that he thought what happens to the PC could have happened to him. He did not know about the exact details of how it would happen, probably assuming killing all the others would automatically make him God of Murder, which clearly is what he was after (other than the Five who thought they would become chosen/right hand or whatever of the new/returning god).
    Sarevok acted on a misinterpretation of Alaundo's prophecy

    Unless this interpretation was intended as to be read by some powerful bhaalspawn who saw himself as the new god of murder and by such set the whole events into motion, kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.
    AerakarThacoBell
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 364


    Sarevok acted on a misinterpretation of Alaundo's prophecy

    Unless this interpretation was intended as to be read by some powerful bhaalspawn who saw himself as the new god of murder and by such set the whole events into motion, kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.
    Just to make sure we are on the same page, which Alaundo's prophecy do you think Sarevok actually read or heard about?

    Was it this: "The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his death he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown in their footsteps. So sayeth the wise Alaundo"

    OR

    from the Forest Spirits at the beginning of TOB (are those even Alaundo's prophecy)?

    Sarevok has thoroughly studied Alaundo's writings (see his own words and the dialogues during the return to Candlekeep episodes.)

    Given Sarevok's egoistical nature, he could proclaim he had thoroughly researched Alaundo's writings but that doesn't mean he has correctly interpreted them. Seeing how Sarevok plotted to engineer a war between BG and AMN in order to induce great carnage and deaths thinking that will promote him to the portfolio of the new god of murder sounds rather idealistic and akin to someone who didn't do his homework well enough. Wouldn't it more effective for him to channel all his energy to simply kill Bhaalspawns as that actually concentrates Bhaal's essence, and NOT by killing innocents.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    edited July 3
    *[Prophecy found in library]The spawn of the Lord of Murder are fated to come into their inheritance through bloodshed and misery. It is the hope of their father that only one shall remain alive to inherit his legacy. I foresee that the children of Bhaal shall kill each other in a bloody massacre.*
    And
    *[Prophecy found in library book]During the days of the Avatars, the Lord of Murder will spawn a score of mortal progeny. These offspring will be aligned good and evil, but chaos will flow through them all. When the Beast's bastard children come of age, they will bring havoc to the lands of the Sword Coast. One of these children must rise above the rest and claim their father's legacy. This inheritor will shape the history of the Sword Coast for centuries to come.*

    (If I remember correctly those scrolls are found on the ground floor of the Candlekeep library on the bookshelves.)

    Yes, it may be *more effective for him to channel all his energy to simply kill Bhaalspawns as that actually concentrates Bhaal's essence, and NOT by killing innocents.*, unless you consider Sarevok's pre-mature acting like he was the God of Murder already as a way to feed his own inherited powers before he can take his battle to his siblings.
    Like the protagonist grows abilities by fighting and killing through early BG1, so does Sarevok.
    Another aspect - and I may be mistaken here, but this was always my impression during BG1 - it is not really clear HOW MANY spawns there really would be (maybe not even to the writers back then when ToB was not even planned). In BG1 I always had the feeling this was a really *elite* circle, with Sarevok, Gorion's Ward, Imoen and maybe a handful of others. Sarevok focussed on you - Irenicus did, only when it comes to Saradush you really get an idea of the much greater number. Sarevok may have made that same mistake.
    mf2112
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 144
    edited July 3
    Could Amelyssan be lying perhaps? Alaundo too could be mistaken.

    I could be wrong, but when I played D&D back the day, godhood could be achieved by any means agreed by the DM such as being an epic level hero, having shedloads of followers and/or completing specific quests at the discretion of the DM.

    There was no hard and fast rule to achieve it - if they behaved like a god and loads of people believed it, then the powers started to take notice and at some point made contact with the character somehow, if there's celestial power to spare e.g. by choosing a portfolio.

    None of the people in our campaigns achieved this of course.

    IIRC an example of this in Forgotten Realms, is the dragon god Tchazzar who started as a human hero, and eventually got eaten by Tiamat sadly.

    Therefore, in my world, Sarevok can still try to achieve godhood at the end of ToB (as can any of the epic level characters) if that's what he wants, by a variety of paths, independent of the Bhaalspawn saga.

    The main factor is intention.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    As a rule of thumb I would suggest to estimate Sarevok's knowledge about becoming a god to that what is the available information within BG1, i.e. he knows at the beginning what the protagonist may know by the end of BG1. This is: the details from the scrolls and chanters, what he learned from Winski, what he learned from some bhaalists he claims to have captured and tortured.
    The very details about how to use Bhaal's essence and the ritual involved are not revealed until the Bhaal/Melissan confrontation by the end of ToB. We must assume that those two actually were the only creatures who knew about it. Bhaal has entrusted this to his high priestess. He wouldn't have left scribbled notes about it anyway. Nobody knew this except the two.
    So Sarevok would gather the necessary strength from the bloodshed he started. He would be powerful enough to defeat any other bhaalspawn. He would be the last and ...abracadabra...godhood.
    johntylThacoBell
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 364

    *[Prophecy found in library]The spawn of the Lord of Murder are fated to come into their inheritance through bloodshed and misery. It is the hope of their father that only one shall remain alive to inherit his legacy. I foresee that the children of Bhaal shall kill each other in a bloody massacre.*
    And
    *[Prophecy found in library book]During the days of the Avatars, the Lord of Murder will spawn a score of mortal progeny. These offspring will be aligned good and evil, but chaos will flow through them all. When the Beast's bastard children come of age, they will bring havoc to the lands of the Sword Coast. One of these children must rise above the rest and claim their father's legacy. This inheritor will shape the history of the Sword Coast for centuries to come.*

    (If I remember correctly those scrolls are found on the ground floor of the Candlekeep library on the bookshelves.)

    Thank you for these! I'm ashamed to have totally missed this when I was going through BG1. Probably wasn't thorough enough. As many have pointed out, the irony lies in the fact that these likely become self-fulfilling prophecies. But given the fact that Bhaalspawns have a proclivity towards violence, it wouldn't be surprising that the Bhaal taint within them would spur them to kill off each other in the long run. (It's in their DNA)


    Yes, it may be *more effective for him to channel all his energy to simply kill Bhaalspawns as that actually concentrates Bhaal's essence, and NOT by killing innocents.*, unless you consider Sarevok's pre-mature acting like he was the God of Murder already as a way to feed his own inherited powers before he can take his battle to his siblings.
    Like the protagonist grows abilities by fighting and killing through early BG1, so does Sarevok.

    Agreed but only if Sarevok himself does all the killing and gaining of experience, if you like. NOT by instigating two cities to go to war and killing one another.


    Another aspect - and I may be mistaken here, but this was always my impression during BG1 - it is not really clear HOW MANY spawns there really would be (maybe not even to the writers back then when ToB was not even planned). In BG1 I always had the feeling this was a really *elite* circle, with Sarevok, Gorion's Ward, Imoen and maybe a handful of others. Sarevok focussed on you - Irenicus did, only when it comes to Saradush you really get an idea of the much greater number. Sarevok may have made that same mistake.

    With regards to identifying Bhaalspawns, I have always wondered how people identify them. Is there something physically different about Bhaalspawns? How does Melissan know who and where to find the Bhaalspawns spread all over Faerun? Could it be the smell of Bhaal's taint as Draconis pointed out here:



  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 291
    edited July 3
    Sarevok actually had rituals to help him achieve godhood. We just never learn the details about him. he's in the process of preparing at least one of these when we force the final confrontation with him in the end of BG1. he's also quoted to have been reciting all of the prophesies dealing with the matter from Alaundo by memory. We don't ever get the full detailings of what he had access to for his ascension.

    Melysan is not as all knowing as she likes to play. nor can she be certain she is the only one with access nor the only one with a way to attain Bhaal's place. All we know for certain is that she once served Bhaal and she was basically feeding off his essence as it gathered around fewer individuals to drive her own power.

    The Truth is Bhaal may not have fully trusted his high priestess and may not have given her as full a picture and access as she thinks. Bhaal was more prone to putting his faith in himself and his machinations. Specially considering her first task after Bhaal died was to attempt to sacrifice as many of the bhaalspawn as she could that were born throughout bhaal's followers, which various things suggest is not what bhaal intended for them. She may simply be trying to manipulate and always intended to try to ascend herself through what happened and tried to work up or use incomplete rituals to obtain Bhaal's power.
    johntyl
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 118
    To ascend, you need either Melissan or the solar to access Bhaal's power and channel it into yourself. Had Sarevok survived BG1 and eventually reached Throne of Bhaal, he would presumably have taken your place in the story and eventually been offered the same choice by the solar.
    johntyl
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    jsaving said:

    To ascend, you need either Melissan or the solar to access Bhaal's power and channel it into yourself. Had Sarevok survived BG1 and eventually reached Throne of Bhaal, he would presumably have taken your place in the story and eventually been offered the same choice by the solar.

    Well, the initial question was *How does Sarevok actually intend to ascend to godhood?*
    You are probably right in your assumption, just Sarevok did not know these details nor are they contained in the prophesy of Alaundo. He would have learned by the end of BG1, that his plan was not sufficient yet.
    According to his personality he would have adjusted to the new situation.
    Putting aside the SoD and SoA interludes for Sarevok (you can draw many scenarios around that), he sooner or later would have been spotted by Melissan. He would have been a valid member of the Five, so either he joins them or he already feels strong enough to fight them.
    Balthazar would get the role of the bhaalspawn to stop Bhaal's/Melissan's return of the god(dess) of Murder.
    johntyl
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 364
    jsaving said:

    To ascend, you need either Melissan or the solar to access Bhaal's power and channel it into yourself. Had Sarevok survived BG1 and eventually reached Throne of Bhaal, he would presumably have taken your place in the story and eventually been offered the same choice by the solar.

    But the question is will Sarevok have access to the Solar or is it only a prerogative of Charname? Considering how Charname seems to be the prophesized one to stop Alaundo's prophecy from coming true, I'm thinking if Charname were to die by the hands of Sarevok, perhaps that role will go to Balthazar instead.
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 107
    I suspect there are many routes to ultimately achieving Godhood, at least for Bhaalspawn with the Throne of Bhaal empty. I am also sure Sarevok was to some extent just winging it and hoping that the accumulation of Power via rituals would effectively trigger his ascension. He knew he had to become the last child of Bhaal, but despite his research he was still trying to understand a process that seems to be subjective and at least partly out of his control.

    Technically speaking Bhaals plan to return after his death in the time of troubles did work, if you factor in that it was his essence that returned, not his specific personality and memories, those were formed from the Bhaalspawn. I do not believe Sarevok knew these details nor of Amelissan, but he was to a large extent driven mad by his dreams and lust for power, all he knew is he was driven to kill and felt he destined for ascension.
    johntylArtona
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,277
    Sarevok didn't know the exact details of the ascension process, lest he would tell them to Charname in ToB if you bring him along. He does know more than you at first, but not any details. Actually no mortal but Amelyssane, and ultimately Charname, knew what Bhaal really intended and how he was supposed to be resurrected.

    His plan was roughly to trigger a war which would be a huge blood bath with great amounts of casualties, and that this would ignite the divine spark within him. He didn't even know about Melissan
    ArtonaThacoBelljohntyl
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 641
    edited July 5
    I got the impression that Sarevok had studied the prophecies and learnt that the Bhaalspawn who would rise to godhood world be the one who did X, Y and Z.

    Therefore Sarevok just figured if he did X, Y and Z then the rest would take care of itself and he would become a god. i.e. He had no detailed plan.
    johntyl
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 291
    There is nothing saying that sparking that war and following in Bhaal's steps would not bring him to godhood. Considering your talking about a very subjective thing.

    There is no proof that Melissan was telling the truth at all in ToB other than her attempting to usurp the power of Bhaal from the Bhaalspawn. We do not know for certain that she was actually necessary to achieve said godhood. Just that she happens to be part of the path that Charname uses to get there.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    edited July 5
    Two things need to be separated here
    a) the return of Bhaal as originally planned
    b) the eventual rising of one of his prodigy instead of a) as alledgedly prophesised by Alaundo
    (b implying that a has failed)

    For a) the requirements are the gathering of a sufficient amount of Bhaal's essence in the Abyss and the performance of some ritual to restore him from that essence. This plan is only known by Bhaal and Melissan. M also knows about b) and uses it to her advantage to gather the essence. Since she is not bhaalspawn herself however, she uses the essence in her own variation of the ritual to become the goddess of murder, which she almost accomplishes when the protagonist appears at ToB.

    For b) the requirements are less clear - *I foresee that the children of Bhaal shall kill each other in a bloody massacre.* and *One of these children must rise above the rest and claim their father's legacy*
    - Sarevok's interpretation of it is that he kills all other aspirants, remains the last, and *claims* godhood.
    - Balthazar's interpretation is that he must survive the battle, remain the last, and NOT *claim* godhood but kill himself before the desire to *claim* overwhelms him.
    Neither interpretation is THAT clear in the prophesy, spawns will fight and one will rise above the others, this does not necessarily mean all others need to be dead. There is not even mentioning of the essence here, no hint that the *rising god* would need it like Bhaal would in a).

    And...as the end of ToB reveals, neither of them is true.
    Because when the protagonist finally defeats the not-yet-goddess Amelyssan, we find
    - Bhaal stays dead
    - not all spawns are dead (depending on how you play, at least Imoen and Balthazar may still live)
    - the protagonist can *claim* what he actually wants to do with the essence
    1. destroy it together with Mellissan >>> stay mortal and return to a normal life
    2. claim the *birthright* and become god of murder
    3. claim godhood and *become a power of the Realms* but NOT God of Murder (happily assisted by the Solar)

    ThacoBelljohntyl
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,634

    Two things need to be separated here
    a) the return of Bhaal as originally planned
    b) the eventual rising of one of his prodigy instead of a) as alledgedly prophesised by Alaundo
    (b implying that a has failed)

    For a) the requirements are the gathering of a sufficient amount of Bhaal's essence in the Abyss and the performance of some ritual to restore him from that essence. This plan is only known by Bhaal and Melissan. M also knows about b) and uses it to her advantage to gather the essence. Since she is not bhaalspawn herself however, she uses the essence in her own variation of the ritual to become the goddess of murder, which she almost accomplishes when the protagonist appears at ToB.

    For b) the requirements are less clear - *I foresee that the children of Bhaal shall kill each other in a bloody massacre.* and *One of these children must rise above the rest and claim their father's legacy*
    - Sarevok's interpretation of it is that he kills all other aspirants, remains the last, and *claims* godhood.
    - Balthazar's interpretation is that he must survive the battle, remain the last, and NOT *claim* godhood but kill himself before the desire to *claim* overwhelms him.
    Neither interpretation is THAT clear in the prophesy, spawns will fight and one will rise above the others, this does not necessarily mean all others need to be dead. There is not even mentioning of the essence here, no hint that the *rising god* would need it like Bhaal would in a).

    And...as the end of ToB reveals, neither of them is true.
    Because when the protagonist finally defeats the not-yet-goddess Amelyssan, we find
    - Bhaal stays dead
    - not all spawns are dead (depending on how you play, at least Imoen and Balthazar may still live)
    - the protagonist can *claim* what he actually wants to do with the essence
    1. destroy it together with Mellissan >>> stay mortal and return to a normal life
    2. claim the *birthright* and become god of murder
    3. claim godhood and *become a power of the Realms* but NOT God of Murder (happily assisted by the Solar)

    I agree with almost all of this, but you do explicitly take Bhaals portfolio. However, it is up to charname how to INTERPRET it.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 291
    edited July 5
    We actually know that Bhaal's essence to some degree was actually gathering in the remaining bhaalspawn. We don't know if his essence would have overwhelmed the last remaining bhaalspawn to cause his rebirth in their form. Which is a possibility. It's a possibility actually hinted at by both Mellisan and Balthazaar.

    We can't be sure that Melissan's plan is actually known by Bhaal. We don't know how far her treachery actually runs in the matter. We only know she's collecting and syphoning off what Essence that she can to try and fuel her own ascendance in her God's place with the claim that it's part of Bhaal's preperations. Bhaal may have been aware of her treachery all along and not given her as much information as is being assumed.

    The Solar only let's us known what it can do with all that essence has built up. It doesn't confirm which ways would actually work or were the intended plans of the dead god.

    We also don't know what rituals Sarevok may have planned. He doesn't say. He never really says what he knows on the matter. But more that it won't really work anymore and considering he's still evil at the time. It could just mean that because he's not bhaalspawn he himself can't use it and didn't have intention to turning his work on the matter over to Charname. considering part of his plan involved an ancient temple of bhaal well hidden away under a major city. It's possible there were secrets or writings in that temple that he was lead to by the essence inside of himself that could have actually been part of Bhaal's real plan. We never really explore that temple. We just go in and fight him and leave and BG1 ends.

    And the reality is we will never have answers for much of this information. There is no way to explore a lot of it and the couple of people we might have been able to ask of it through the course of the game are either not all knowing and only inform us of what can work in that moment to their understanding(The Solar for example) Or are Duplicitous in nature and unlikely to give us wholely correct answers because of their own aspirations or assumptions they are going to win which can cause information to be lost after they are defeated and have fallen(Aka Sarevok and Melissan).

    One thing that is overlooked however is that the Prophesy of Alaundo may have played a part in the setting of this whole thing in motion so it may be more accurate than it is given credit for in many theories. Self fulfilling prophesy so to speak. The prophesy itself which is actually fairly old on it's own may have been what spurred bhaal to set forth in seeing himself resurrected after his death.
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 364
    ThacoBell said:


    I agree with almost all of this, but you do explicitly take Bhaals portfolio. However, it is up to charname how to INTERPRET it.

    What portfolio do you think it would be then? Cyric is still around, and according to Lord AO, there shouldn't be any overlap of portfolios.
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 364
    fateless said:

    There is nothing saying that sparking that war and following in Bhaal's steps would not bring him to godhood. Considering your talking about a very subjective thing.

    There is no proof that Melissan was telling the truth at all in ToB other than her attempting to usurp the power of Bhaal from the Bhaalspawn. We do not know for certain that she was actually necessary to achieve said godhood. Just that she happens to be part of the path that Charname uses to get there.

    She did tell the truth near the end of TOB before battling her, under pressure from Solar, as you can see from the following exchange. Since she's "winning'' already, there's no point in not telling the truth anyway since it doesn't change anything, according to her:


    ThacoBell
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 291
    There's no reason for her to actually tell the truth at that point actually. Parts of that whole conversation read more like her bragging than anything. Bragging does not actually have to be factual and often isn't. Also anything she does not know or was herself mislead on she wouldn't be able to tell you the truth on the matter.

    I blame this on movies the idea of the Masterminds monologue telling everything and being truthful about it and their undoing. While it's a great display of Egoism it makes very little sense for most of them to do. It's a bond villain trope that has become almost painful in the extent to which we expect it in all of the stories anymore.

    And there is still nothing that says that she answered truthfully even at that and is not just telling you exactly what she wants you to hear to make you think what she wants you to think about the situation.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,634
    Wasn't it implied that the Solar was forcing the souls/people she summoned to tell the truth?
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 291
    edited July 6
    Nope. just that this soul shard of Mellisan has to answer the questions. Truthfully or not is never actually mentioned. The implication of truthfulness would be entirely of our making. As is the assumption that she entirely knows the truth to begin with. And the issue that at some point a solar's ability to compel anything from another powerful being is going to be questionable.

    We work on this idea that she's the final big bad guy so she must know everything that is going on. But there is still nothing that actually says she does. Bhaal was a secretive god with complicated plots so we don't know what was truly shared with her. We also don't know the true affects that trying to syphon the essence of bhaal into herself might have on her.
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 364
    fateless said:

    Nope. just that this soul shard of Mellisan has to answer the questions. Truthfully or not is never actually mentioned. The implication of truthfulness would be entirely of our making. As is the assumption that she entirely knows the truth to begin with. And the issue that at some point a solar's ability to compel anything from another powerful being is going to be questionable.

    We work on this idea that she's the final big bad guy so she must know everything that is going on. But there is still nothing that actually says she does. Bhaal was a secretive god with complicated plots so we don't know what was truly shared with her. We also don't know the true affects that trying to syphon the essence of bhaal into herself might have on her.

    I humbly disagree. If you follow the logic behind Solar and his/her power in the pocket plane, and the fact that she is a servant of the paths and the gods (perhaps of Lord AO himself since we do know Solar to be a neutral being), then that means every spirit that she summons into the pocket plane must be under some kind of compelling force exerted onto them by Solar. Otherwise, they could have just left or kept their mouth shut.

    Even if Amelyssan chose to lie, Solar would have known since she seems to be omniscient and would have corrected her. If you go back and look at the responses by Solar, it seems that she has already pre-empted or known what is about to be revealed to Charname. She is just there to facilitate the revelation.
    ThacoBellWandering_Ranger
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    edited July 6
    She is just there to facilitate the revelation.

    That is one thing he does. He would also have pointed to the protagonist if someone lied to give food for thought why someone should lie.
    Another purpose of the Solar is to evaluate the protagonit's reaction to each of the revelations. The way you answer to the respective steps (Your mother, Sarevok, Melissan/Bhaal etc) and the challenges is determining the option you are presented with for the final question, especially if you become an evil or good deity should you choose the essence.
    johntylThacoBell
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 291
    edited July 6
    johntyl said:

    She is just there to facilitate the revelation.

    Actually. The Solar is there to push exposition. Considering that it is tied to a pocket realm deeply associated to Bhaal. There is nothing saying that it's allegiance isn't to Bhaal. It literally could be just another aspect of the growing power and essence inside the PC just like the Pocket Realm itself is a representation of that. But also it reflects an attempt to recreate in smaller detail the nature of the Hell Trials from SoA. With the problem that it's far less fleshed out.

    There are a few powers that can force truth. But there are also powers that can block such truth forcing powers. And as for the things that the Solar summons up into the pocket realm. most of them are tied to bhaal's essence in some way. Or technically tied to your own essence in the form of various companions you can take with you. Even Sarevok is a thread of fate that is intertwined to your own because of your dealings and eventual defeating of him.

    AO is unlikely to be involved as well. he doesn't care what goes on even amongst gods. he wants to be forgotten even though it's all under his purview. His involvement in the time of troubles only happened because he had to. So he wouldn't be bothered to step in in the issue of Bhaal's resurrection. He doesn't actually care.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    fateless said:

    johntyl said:

    She is just there to facilitate the revelation.

    Actually. The Solar is there to push exposition. Considering that it is tied to a pocket realm deeply associated to Bhaal. There is nothing saying that it's allegiance isn't to Bhaal. It literally could be just another aspect of the growing power and essence inside the PC just like the Pocket Realm itself is a representation of that. But also it reflects an attempt to recreate in smaller detail the nature of the Hell Trials from SoA. With the problem that it's far less fleshed out.

    There are a few powers that can force truth. But there are also powers that can block such truth forcing powers. And as for the things that the Solar summons up into the pocket realm. most of them are tied to bhaal's essence in some way. Or technically tied to your own essence in the form of various companions you can take with you. Even Sarevok is a thread of fate that is intertwined to your own because of your dealings and eventual defeating of him.

    AO is unlikely to be involved as well. he doesn't care what goes on even amongst gods. he wants to be forgotten even though it's all under his purview. His involvement in the time of troubles only happened because he had to. So he wouldn't be bothered to step in in the issue of Bhaal's resurrection. He doesn't actually care.
    Are you a modder in disguise?
    What you say is very much what the Sandrah Saga mod seems to imply as well - even if it's never revealed openly. It appears that the Solar - even if not working for her - is at least in league with Mystra, who has a direct interest to prevent Bhaal's return. Which goes back to her involvement as Midnight with the Time of Troubles. During ToB, a number of gods (except for Ao) show their interest in the protagonist (Cyric, Shar, Talos, Mystra, even Tiamat during the dragon bhaalspawn quest). At least Cyric and Mystra may be directly try to promote/hinder the rising new force protagonist. Sandrah by the way is a priestess of Mystra.
    Anyway, this is not canon, but apparently a clever way for a mod to use such story loopholes for some own contents
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 291
    @PaulaMigrate I am not a modder. But I may have to go look up that mod and try it out sometime. Just to see how the story plays out. I wouldn't have thought to tie Mystra into the fold.

    But I have personal issues the way Mystra is written. Mystra was supposed to be neutral and consider magic a neutral force. But some of her attitudes in other respects weren't exactly neutral. As some above have mentioned they lean heavily towards good. She was also one to heavily play favorites. Elminster is one of these favorites and at least once suggested he was a consort to mystra which is why he actually has powers and benefits far greater than his already substantial magic power to make him a legend that aren't often brought up. She was a goddess that supposedly only cared about magical laws and enforcing her own will. Even laying down bans against certain magic working. Keeping things uniform through the use of the weave and sometimes affecting attempts by mages to advance magic through research and experimentation by deciding if and when it would work on occasion. Even the issue of Midnight and the events that lead to Mystra's death at the hands of another god are examples that bhaal wasn't the only one that had at least partial forknowledge of their fates during the time of troubles.

    She even created the idea of the Magister which is supposed to be a magician that other mages are supposed to challenge and go up against to advance magic and eventually defeat to only have another suitable such person to arise. Yet she could control that person actually being beaten because of her control over magic. A champion that is supposed to be your representative and given fairly free reign that can only be beaten when she allows it is an issue of contention for me amongst other things.

    yet she's one of the reasons Shar is considered Evil for trying to actually take away some of the power that Mystra wielded over magic. And Mystra is often identified as good.
  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 548
    fateless said:

    @PaulaMigrate I am not a modder. But I may have to go look up that mod and try it out sometime. Just to see how the story plays out. I wouldn't have thought to tie Mystra into the fold.

    But I have personal issues the way Mystra is written. Mystra was supposed to be neutral and consider magic a neutral force. But some of her attitudes in other respects weren't exactly neutral. As some above have mentioned they lean heavily towards good. She was also one to heavily play favorites. Elminster is one of these favorites and at least once suggested he was a consort to mystra which is why he actually has powers and benefits far greater than his already substantial magic power to make him a legend that aren't often brought up. She was a goddess that supposedly only cared about magical laws and enforcing her own will. Even laying down bans against certain magic working. Keeping things uniform through the use of the weave and sometimes affecting attempts by mages to advance magic through research and experimentation by deciding if and when it would work on occasion. Even the issue of Midnight and the events that lead to Mystra's death at the hands of another god are examples that bhaal wasn't the only one that had at least partial forknowledge of their fates during the time of troubles.

    She even created the idea of the Magister which is supposed to be a magician that other mages are supposed to challenge and go up against to advance magic and eventually defeat to only have another suitable such person to arise. Yet she could control that person actually being beaten because of her control over magic. A champion that is supposed to be your representative and given fairly free reign that can only be beaten when she allows it is an issue of contention for me amongst other things.

    yet she's one of the reasons Shar is considered Evil for trying to actually take away some of the power that Mystra wielded over magic. And Mystra is often identified as good.

    Mystra had several incarnations since the time Mystril sacrificed herself to stop Karsus of Netheril to achieve godhood through magic. Afterwards the Weave and Shadow Weave were separated making Shar and Mystra kind of two sides of a medal.
    In a conversation between Neera, the wild mage, and Sandrah, the priestess of Mystra the latter refers to Mystril as the *first wild mage*. In earlier days magic was something far more natural/untamed and over time Mystra gave it more structure and laws. Mystra's shift from neutral to good may be more recent, when Midnight took the mantle after the Time of Troubles.
    I find your earlier description od AO quite fitting. All the events in the BG trilogy are somehow the result of his sloppy management of the crisis known as Time of Troubles. He elevated three mortals to gods who would cause trouble immediately: Cyric having murdered Kelemvor who was Midnight's lover and then giving Cyric the portfolio of Bhaal while the essence of that god was spilled all over the Prime? AO left his powder-kegs lying around just waiting for someone with a lighter. Or maybe this is the only fun the old guy still has?
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 291
    Some of those things aren't actually AO's doing. They are just things he didn't step in and clean up for others. Making them deal with their own situations. Including Cyric's Usurpation of Bhaal's portfolio. something he started trying to steal almost from the time he became a god.

    The Weave was actually a creation of Mystra as part of putting laws in place and banning all spells over a certain power level (of which power words are technically a remnant of) And in counter point Shar developed the Shadow Weave. The Weave and Shadow Weave are both filters for the raw essence of magic to make magic safer. So in some respects the idea that Mystral is the first wild mage is kind of true. Under Mystral Magic was a different beast altogether and somewhat... temperamental...

    the BG Trilogy is all a result of AO basically telling gods and Mortals both to clean up their own messes though I believe he did impose some new rules for the gods to make them have to court mortals more and not just act like the rulers of mortals which is half of what caused the Time of Troubles to begin with.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,277
    Saying that Ao isn't involved at all seems rather subjective. Here's what I wrote on another thread on the "General discussion" board ":

    Concerning the Solar, I often wondered [whether she was a spawn of Ao], but I came to the conclusion that she was indeed a spawn of Ao. The role of the Solar is not to influence you in your decisions, rather to point out your possibilities, to inform you on what you are, and make you ponder on certain aspects. She questions your decisions, not to make you change your mind but to open it to new perspectives. The only moment she really makes a comment about what you want to do is in the final dialogue, when she says she'll happily follow you should you choose godhood and have acted good, or that she despises you if you do so being Evil. This behaviour would be very much like Ao: he won't directly intervene in a given situation except if it endangers the existence of the Realms, but he'd still want the people involved to fully understand the various outcomes that are offered to them. To further support this theory, it's said at some point by the Solar that even Ao took interest in the Bhaalspawn episode. Ao hardly ever speaks to the god themselves, so a mere Solar wouldn't know about it except if Ao told her himself, for a good reason.

    End of the copypaste.

    The fact that the Solar keeps a very neutral position except at the very end of the game led me to think she was sent by a Neutral being, and she knows a lot, much more than most gods, hence why I'd say the aforementioned Neutral being would be Ao
    ThacoBell
«134
Sign In or Register to comment.