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How does Sarevok actually intend to ascend to godhood?

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Comments

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 557
    edited July 31
    @Wandering_Ranger:
    The smart villain (like Amelyssan) would have at this point retreated and reformed some plans. He didn't because he doesn't know when to quit. He died because he is a showman villain, and nothing of substance.

    That's not the case. There is no reason to assume that Sarevok would do otherwise - he simply wanted to deal with Charname when he still had advantage of terrain (a.k.a "those damn traps in the final fight").

    By who? Well, Amelyssan! Why? High priestess of Bhaal. Even fooled a god. This level of scheming is unparalleled, and not just in the BG world, but villainy in general.

    Well then:
    "Bob was evil sorcerer who wanted to rule the world. His plan took 250 years to come to fruition, and Bob manage to fool ten gods and every hero ever. He succeeded."
    Apparently that makes Bob much better tham Amelyssan, but is this what we want as "great villain"?

    [Amelyssan] Always a step ahead. Shows long-term sound planning and the ability to deal with curveballs thrown her way.

    Well, she did not predict how strong Charname will get. Poor planing on her part.

    Not that Sarevok fanboys will get it. They're just mad that Amelyssan would wipe the floor with ten thousand Sarevoks at the height of her power. And they can't appreciate good planning. If they could, they wouldn't be Sarevok fanboys, they'd switch to Team Amelyssan and hope she forgives their transgressions.
    All Sarevok fanboys are good at is liking the comments of other Sarevok fanboys and ignoring anything outside their limited perspective. Kind of just like Sarevok, actually.

    ...you're seriously upset about who likes whose posts?
    Also, those childish insult only lower otherwise interesting thread. It's not 9gag, you know.
    ThacoBell
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    "you're seriously upset about who likes whose posts? "

    Nah, just noticed that it's a few people (one in particular) who seem to like everything against what I am discussing, no matter the thread. Quite hilarious, if a touch disturbing, and wanted to point out this strange obsession with me in a funny kind of way.

    "Apparently that makes Bob much better tham Amelyssan, but is this what we want as "great villain"?"

    If that were the case, Bob would indeed be better than Amelyssan. But he doesn't exist. Again, it doesn't matter "what you want." What matters is the story that was presented, and the facts when we are discussing that story. As facts stand, Amelyssan is simply the best. Her journey is phenomenal. We are all familiar with DnD so we must all have some degree of imagination. I am actually shocked that people don't use theirs more to imagine the kind of path she had to get to where she got (borderline god).

    "Well, she did not predict how strong Charname will get. Poor planing on her part."

    She couldn't predict that. This isn't an exact science. By all rights, after she absorbed the essence of practically every Bhaalspawn, she was very close to godhood already. It's destiny that beat her, that's all.

    But the ambition she showed was stunning. Imagine if she had simply worked to resurrect Bhaal. She would be his right-hand woman. But she would rather be the devil than his right-hand.

    As a side note, there is actually an option for charname to say "lady of murder eh? Any chance you need a right-hand man?" (Or something close to that.) The game should perhaps have had this option for the more cowardly charnames to take. But then, I guess Sarevok fanboys would be even more bitter that it wasn't Sarevok in Amelyssan's place! That's really where the hatred from Amelyssan stems from - pure jealousy. The fact that their "bro" didn't get as far, despite trying so hard.
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 557
    @Wandering_Ranger
    Nah, just noticed that it's a few people (one in particular) who seem to like everything against what I am discussing, no matter the thread. Quite hilarious, if a touch disturbing, and wanted to point out this strange obsession with me in a funny kind of way.

    I did not seem like you had fun, but whatever.

    If that were the case, Bob would indeed be better than Amelyssan. But he doesn't exist. Again, it doesn't matter "what you want." What matters is the story that was presented, and the facts when we are discussing that story.

    He exist. I written a story. You can read it for free in this thread. So yeah, he is better than Amelyssan, I guess.

    As a side note, there is actually an option for charname to say "lady of murder eh? Any chance you need a right-hand man?" (Or something close to that.) The game should perhaps have had this option for the more cowardly charnames to take. But then, I guess Sarevok fanboys would be even more bitter that it wasn't Sarevok in Amelyssan's place! That's really where the hatred from Amelyssan stems from - pure jealousy. The fact that their "bro" didn't get as far, despite trying so hard.

    Could you stop with ad personam?
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    "He exist. I written a story. You can read it for free in this thread. So yeah, he is better than Amelyssan, I guess."

    Sadly for you, he is not in the game, thus irrelevant to this discussion.

    "Could you stop with ad personam?"

    No ad hominem. I was just trying to discover where this strange hate for Amelyssan comes from and concluded it must be from villain-envy. No other reasonable explanation for the phenomenon.
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 557
    @Wandering_Ranger
    I was just trying to discover where this strange hate for Amelyssan comes from and concluded it must be from villain-envy. No other reasonable explanation for the phenomenon.

    You are the one who insults so called "Sarevok fanboys". Besides that, you are the only who describes villain with exclamation marks, and none of those "Sarevok fanboys" does that in regards to Sarevok.

    Sadly for you, he is not in the game, thus irrelevant to this discussion.

    If your point is dull notion that "the last villain in BG series has best stats", then yeah. If your point is "Amelyssan is the best villain because she is the most powerful", then - sadly for you - Bob is relevant, because he shows that most power =/= being best villain.
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    "If your point is dull notion that "the last villain in BG series has best stats", then yeah. If your point is "Amelyssan is the best villain because she is the most powerful", then - sadly for you - Bob is relevant, because he shows that most power =/= being best villain."

    Again - not in game. Argument irrelevant.

    "You are the one who insults so called "Sarevok fanboys". Besides that, you are the only who describes villain with exclamation marks, and none of those "Sarevok fanboys" does that in regards to Sarevok. "

    I've not insulted anyone. I was trying to come up with an explanation as to why Amelyssan gets so much hate. Judging from your reaction, my reasoning is sound.
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 557
    @Wandering_Ranger:
    okay, then general question - what decides if villain is good or not?

    And please don't bother me with those annoying suggestions. I don't care very much about name-calling, but if you want to call me "Sarevok fanboy", then do so, if you wish. Don't beat around a bush.
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    okay, then general question - what decides if villain is good or not?

    There are many factors, including (but not limited to):

    - Not giving one's motives away
    - Long-term planning
    - Ability to make decisions on the spot
    - Working with others (if/when necessary)
    - Using others
    - No remorse or mercy. Entirely selfish ends
    - Ability to deceive
    - Ambition
    - Execution!

    Applying the above formula sees Amelyssan as the objectively best villain of the three. How anyone feels about her is irrelevant.

    What has absolutely nothing to do with whether a villain is good or not:

    - Personality and backstory
    - Ability to make choices (in fact, the villain restricts your choices - which is why they are the villain!)

    This is exactly what people are not getting.
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 557
    Before we go any further - you know that this formula is not some generally accepted canon of villany or nothing like that, right?
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    edited July 31
    Oh, I don't want to go further... precisely because of the latter part of your statement. There is literally no criterium people like you would ever accept which would get you to change your stance on anything.

    After all, my definition of what makes a good villain is actually very sound. Your dismissal of it is a dismissal of anything objective. There is literally no answer I could have given which would satisfy your "accepted canon" argument, so it's a wonder why you asked me the question in the first place.

    I have analysed the three villains based on these various criteria, and I had NO CHOICE but to logically accept Amelyssan as the best of them. This is something the community has thus far (as proven by this thread and others) failed to do. They confuse the " Personality and backstory " with the actual villainous traits (outlined in part by my aforementioned criteria). They can't separate the two worlds.

    Trying to argue with people like yourself is the old "pigeon and chess" analogy. Thanks but no thanks.
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 557
    @Wandering_Ranger
    There is literally no criterium people like you would ever accept which would get you to change your stance on anything.

    Trying to argue with people like yourself is the old "pigeon and chess" analogy.

    :)

    I have analysed the three villains based on these various criteria, and I had NO CHOICE but to logically accept Amelyssan as the best of them.

    *analysed*?
    *logically*?
    Was this reduction, deduction or induction? :)

    Not the more serious note - I think that despite his deep knowledge about prophecies, Sarevok knew less that he'd like to admit, and there was an aspect of blind guess on his part. I find it hard to believe that he would know more about it than High Priestess of Bhaal.
    Btw, I wonder how much Irenicus knew about all that Bhaalspawn drama.
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 242

    okay, then general question - what decides if villain is good or not?

    There are many factors, including (but not limited to):

    - Not giving one's motives away
    - Long-term planning
    - Ability to make decisions on the spot
    - Working with others (if/when necessary)
    - Using others
    - No remorse or mercy. Entirely selfish ends
    - Ability to deceive
    - Ambition
    - Execution!

    Applying the above formula sees Amelyssan as the objectively best villain of the three. How anyone feels about her is irrelevant.

    What has absolutely nothing to do with whether a villain is good or not:

    - Personality and backstory
    - Ability to make choices (in fact, the villain restricts your choices - which is why they are the villain!)

    This is exactly what people are not getting.

    And this is the problem - people simply can not get it because game fails at one major thing here - presentation. The rule of visual art (and games are visual art) is "show, don't tell". With Irenicus - everything was shown, Sarevok too. Melissan? The reveal comes out of the blue.

    It does not look like her incredible abilities, but more like a cheating from developers.
    ThacoBellArtonaUnderstandMouseMagic
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    I suppose therein lies the difference for those with abundant imagination and those that are lacking it.

    More than enough information is given about Amelyssan for everyone to work with and fill in the small gaps themselves. Ultimately, things like HOW she got to be Bhaal's priestess are irrelevant to the ToB storyline. Would it have been nice and interesting to know? Sure. Does it advance the story at all? Nope.

    Some things are better left open to interpretation. You can show a lot more by concealing certain things. The developers did a sufficient job in presenting enough of Amelyssan to give you the framework (and details of her plans). The rest is up to you.

    BG1 NPC's are loved to this day. In fact, the likes of Xzar, Montaron, Coran, and so on are way more popular than Haer Dalis, Jan Jansen, etc. Why? The latter have abundant information presented about them, while the former are little more than paper dolls and cardboard cut outs.

    Yet ENOUGH information is given about them, leaving the player free to use their imagination to fill in the rest.

    The same, for some absurd reason, does not apply to Amelyssan. Everyone needs everything spelled out for them these days. Imagination, it seems, has become an outdated concept.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,818
    @Wandering_Ranger "BG1 NPC's are loved to this day. In fact, the likes of Xzar, Montaron, Coran, and so on are way more popular than Haer Dalis, Jan Jansen, etc. Why? The latter have abundant information presented about them, while the former are little more than paper dolls and cardboard cut outs.

    Yet ENOUGH information is given about them, leaving the player free to use their imagination to fill in the rest."

    Your making a lot of assumptions about the popularity of NPCs here. There is also a GIGANTIC difference when trying to compare BG1 NPCs and Melissan as well. ALL of the BG1 NPCs are equal in presentation. They are ALL developed (or underdeveloped) to the same degree. Five or so lines, an introduction, and a paperdoll. Contrast Melissan, her contemporary is Irenicus. We SEE Irenicus' plans, and abilities. We see his faults and his successes. Melissan gets NONE OF THAT. We see no plans, no character. She is the equivalent of getting a BG1 NPC with all its lack of character or development being dropped into BG2 and seeing how EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IS MORE DEVELOPED. It is a major false equivalence.
    ArtonaMirandel
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    With BG1 and BG2, we are right there building the puzzle as we progress through the game. ToB is different because we are working towards a mystery (end game), but only a limited number of pieces are presented to us. We are not "guided" in the same way as in the previous games. For the unintuitive, unimaginative person, this represents a total nightmare. They just can't emotionally connect with the story and resent it as a result.

    For the thinking person, this represents a masterful guise, a final revelation at which point we say "aha!" and suddenly get the entire picture. The pieces become clear. Everything falls into place. All you can do is sit back and be amazed.

    So, you either appreciate the subtlety or you don't. And most people don't.

    I think I have stated my case MORE than sufficiently. At this point I am simply being yammered at by the same three or four people who don't seem to be able to understand my point of view. They need to be spoonfed everything, so it is no wonder they can't understand the underlying brilliance of Amelyssan. The intricacy is just not for everyone.

    It reminds me of when you are watching a movie with a big plot twist at the end (I'm guessing you guys hate these types of films), and there's always that "one guy" who says "what? What just happened? Oh wow, can someone please explain it to me? I must have missed some detail."

    .... Except the reverse is true here. I'm the one guy who "gets it" in a room full of people who don't. Oh well... that's life.
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 557
    Every villain is, essentially, story-telling device, and cannot be stronger than story told. And story of Amelyssan is, well, poor. Your villain cannot be smarter than he is told, nor more intimidating.
    In "Dark Knight Returns" there is a great scene, when Batman fights the Bad Guy - someone younger, faster, stronger. It's shown how and why Batman chose terrain of battle, how it helps in neutralize feats of his opponent, and maximize use of his own. You read that and *see* how smart and resourceful he is. Of course, Frank Miller could go easy way and just make Batman say "I studied your fighting style and I know how to predict your every move!", and then beat the crap out of the Bad Guy. That would be poor story-telling, as it would fail to show how wise Batman is and how he makes use out of his tremendous experience. Reading that scene in "Dark Knight Returns" you don't need anyone to tell you that Batman is badass, veteran of countless battle, someone awfully hard to outsmart. You are shown.
    Irenicus, Sarevok - they are Batman from "Dark Knight Returns". Amelyssan is your average lazy Batman with "I prepared serum for this/that/also that" card.
    MirandelThacoBell
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 242
    Dear "thinking person". There is no need to be rude and throw around accusations. Anyone, who plays BG has a huge imagination by definition - we have to fill so many gaps it would not be possible to follow the plot or enjoy presence of our companions otherwise. Anyone here can write several completely different stories about any NPC ever mentioned in the game - Melissan included.

    However (!) exactly because of it anyone here is capable to judge the degree of development for every NPC in the game (including Melissan). Underdevelopment is not an obstacle for imagination, but it remains underdevelopment nevertheless. And in case of Melissan this is what it is - underdevelopment and under-presentation. Hence, for many of us she falls short as good villain compare to much more fleshed out other villains.
    ArtonaThacoBelljohntyl
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,145
    Anybody else here getting just a little sick of the gratuitous insults being thrown around?
    ArtonaThacoBelltbone1
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    "Anybody else here getting just a little sick of the gratuitous insults being thrown around?"

    About as sick as I am of being "like-harassed" by certain individuals *cough cough*. Passive-aggressive bullying at its worst.

    Back on point: People can use my "villain template" to simply look at the facts at how they happened and see for themselves who was the best.

    Anyway, this is now going around in circles. I think everyone has presented their point of view and people can read and see what's here, then make up their own minds.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,818
    @Wandering_Ranger I wasn't aware that people agreeing with each other was bullying. If people disagreeing with you is so distasteful, maybe debate is not a good avenue for you to pursue.
    Artona
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    " If people disagreeing with you is so distasteful,"

    It's not. Following me around threads liking the opposition's commentary, and being strangely obsessed with me is distasteful, though.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,818

    " If people disagreeing with you is so distasteful,"

    It's not. Following me around threads liking the opposition's commentary, and being strangely obsessed with me is distasteful, though.

    If you think someone is going out of their way to harass you, report them and move on. Pointing it out to other forumites never ends well, and the mods are the ones with the power to do something about it anyway.
    semiticgod
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 303
    edited August 1
    Ok. I'm just going to say this and be done. Basing an opinion of Amelysan on a fairly lacking bit of Exposition does not work for me personally. Basically the Villain Monologue.

    There is a reason this type of Speech is a laughably silly trope that is made fun of extensively. It's an attempt to give a villain more depth, ingenuity, and cleverness of control than they actually have. Most often used to attempt to fill in plotholes.

    So argue in favour of your monologue and try to twist the game to fit your views as much as you like. It's not going to improve my opinion of her. Amelysan is a poorly implemented fail to me and she will remain as such.

    This is my objective stance.
  • Wandering_RangerWandering_Ranger Member Posts: 115
    "This is my objective stance."

    Subjective *
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 6,095
    I have only just now stumbled upon this thread, and look what I find...

    I have no interest in this debate, but as a moderator, I will remind everyone--

    Yes, everyone. Including YOU.

    --that by using this forum, you agree to follow the Site Rules, which forbid personal attacks, insults, and disrespectful behavior.

    There are no exceptions.

    I strongly recommend that before you post your next comment in this thread, you consider if your post is about the subject at hand, or if it is about your fellow forumites. Because, per the Site Rules, comments about your fellow forumites are only acceptable if they are positive or neutral, not negative.

    Let this end.

    If you have something to say about the actual subject of this thread, however--various ways of achieving Bhaalspawn-related godhood--then please do go ahead.
    johntyl
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 365
    Omgosh, I thought this whole business of which villain is the 'best' has long been resolved but somehow it got dragged out again. I started this thread for the main purpose of exploring Sarevok's plan to ascend to godhood which did garner very interesting insights which i'm grateful for. In the end, I think most of us did agree that Sarevok was basically trying to realize a plan in which he only had limited knowledge. His plan would have failed, and perhaps if he had survived and killed off Charname, he would have subsequently be part of Melissan's' The Five' or 'The Six', etc. Maybe, who knows, that's where imagination comes in.

    With regard to which villain is the best, I think it all comes down to your own personal preference and expectation of what makes a good villain. Personally, I like Irenicus more than Melissan - which doesn't mean I think he's a better villain, I just like him more as a villain. Why? Because I feel him, I feel his story, I feel his character, I feel his vengeance. Melissan, yes, she's a damn-good villain no doubt, definitely good at logistics. But I don't like her as much as Irenicus because I don't really know her.

    And there's no point debating about preferences because that's like debating whether chocolate ice-cream is better than strawberry. Or if you like Tobey Maguire as Spiderman or Tom Holland in the new Spiderman movie. I hope that makes sense :)
    UnderstandMouseMagicsemiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 6,095
    We don't really know the inner workings of Sarevok's plan to become a god, but that doesn't mean Sarevok himself was unclear on the details. After all, we don't know the inner workings of a Fireball spell in BG2, yet in-game mages certainly do.

    Generally speaking, and for good reason, storytellers spend most of their energy developing the characters and the plot, rather than explaining the exact physics behind their world.
    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 2,818
    Even in ToB Sarevok mentions having knowledge enough to be useful. I don't remember how much of this was from Ascension (written by the original writer anyway, but its canon-ness is understandably disputable), but Sarevok knew enough that the last Bhaalspawn standing would have a choice to make about their taint. His major misunderstanding was in thinking the prophecy was about him, rather than Gorion's Ward.
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 762
    I think he planned to use pastry. But then my wife and I are on a diet so I am constantly relating everything to pastry. Still, Cherry-chocolate-chip cookies do exert a power.
    dbianco87
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