Shorties with huge blades

MatteoTurini

I'm not sure this is actually a feature request; maybe more an inquiry of the feasibility of the thing.

So, in pen and paper halflings and gnomes had a special relationship with weapons: they could only handle up to medium-sized ones. They could handle a short sword or a dagger (small) with one hand, and an axe, a light crossbow or a long sword (medium) with two; then, they could not handle at all a greatsword or a long bow, because they're large weapons. (There was a similar rule for shields, but it was made obsolete by the fact that, for example, a medium shield for a gnome was a large one, so it doesn't really matter much.) I think the only exceptions were staves.

From a min-max builiding point of view, obviously this would be a downer for shorties, who could then inflict less damage than medium-sized characters (but, on the other hand, if I'm not mistaken BG:EE implemented the bonuses against giants, orcs, goblins and kobolds that some shorties had, but were never implemented in vanilla BG); but, looking at it from a pnp rule lawyer perspective, this feature should be there somewhere (and it would also make sense that a 3-foot tall character couldn't pull up a 6-foot long blade).

So, what I'm asking is: would this be feasible, even as a mod, or would it require to put one's hand in hard-coded stuff?

bigdogchris

If I could give you insightful, agree, and like I would.

For topics like this I try to use the "realism" argument, but am often countered with "dragons aren't real", so your point may be difficult to argue to others.

reedmilfam

The realism argument isn't the biggest one. It's actually contrary to 2ed rules. 1st ed, 3rd ed too.

MatteoTurini

@bigdogchris Usually I'm on the "dragons aren't real" side too, but in this specific case I'm on the "I like the pnp rules better" side!

bigdogchris

A solution to the "realism" vs "dragon's aren't real" argument could be to ask people to define races, classes, items, spells, etc. Use these definitions as the realism weight.

If someones definition says all classes and races can do everything, that sounds boring to me. I would make sure I have definitions like small races cannot use huge weaponry.

Mechalibur

I'm particularly averse to the "Dragons aren't real argument" as one can extrapolate that to mean almost nothing has to make sense, which isn't true: we still want things to make sense within the context of the fantasy world.

That being said, I don't mind halflings having big weapons. A better comparison would be that inventory management doesn't make sense, eg. if you have one space left, you can fit 5 healing potions, or 5 strength potions, but not one of each. It doesn't make sense, exactly, but it helps keep things smooth. You also don't have to worry about characters going to the bathroom, or having to eat/drink.

Yeah, big weapons seem to shrink when put in the hands of halflings, but I think this can be safely hand waved. It would be annoying having to keep track of two different weapon sizes for the smaller buggers, and from a balance point of view, it's not really necesary.

bigdogchris

I can see the point about weapon sizes not being necessary.

I do like having pro's and con's to races, classes, and items though. A small race may not be particularly strong, but you could make them having other bonuses. Plus, it's just fun to play something different. The more the rules are open, the more bland you become.

Mechalibur

bigdogchris said:

I can see the point about weapon sizes not being necessary.

I do like having pro's and con's to races, classes, and items though. A small race may not be particularly strong, but you could make them having other bonuses. Plus, it's just fun to play something different. The more the rules are open, the more bland you become.

Fair enough. I was mostly just saying that I don't find much of a point in arguing from a realism perspective. If they implemented weapon size penalties while giving shorties something interesting to overcome the penalty, then I'd be in favor of it, as the racial differences so far aren't really all that inspiring. It would have to be done well, however, and not just something that adds to boring character management without really helping party customization.

mlnevese

As reedmilfam said it's against the rules since first edition. Also i believe it was against the rules in D&D as well, before 1st edition AD&D was out, but I'd have to check my Rules Cyclopedia to confirm.

Anyway if they limited weapon use, I'd like to see the bonus against gianst/goblinoids implemented as well.

Miloch

Forbidding existing two-handed weapons to shorties would be easy to implement, since racial item usability flags are already there. However, making things like longswords two-handed to them might be difficult, though not impossible, it could perhaps be scripted or something. A halfling simply could not use a longbow, since he simply wouldn't have the arm length to draw the string back, nevermind how strong he is. Maybe he could lie on the ground, knock the arrow, put both feet against the bow shaft and then draw the string back with both hands. But that's silly.

DJKajuru

I would roleplay that and simply have my gnomes and halfling use smaller weapons , in fact, that's something Montaron, Mazzy and Jan already do.

Pantalion

Mechalibur said:

I think this can be safely hand waved.

No, they really couldn't be safely waved in their hands, they're just too big. That's the point of the thread.

On a more serious note, I fully agree, this is one entry into following the rules that makes a lot of sense, and would be fairly simple to enforce - and can be easily made up for by returning racial bonuses to them in return.

Unless a lot of people had Mazzy rocking Longbows and rocking Carsomyr, I don't think it's a restriction that hasn't come up too often for people to miss it.

MatteoTurini

Well, just forbidding large weapons to halflings and gnomes would be a good compromise, I believe. But then they would only use 1-handed melee weapons (that is not bad, per se).

Oxford_Guy

MatteoTurini said:

Well, just forbidding large weapons to halflings and gnomes would be a good compromise, I believe. But then they would only use 1-handed melee weapons (that is not bad, per se).

Yes, I think that's not a bad compromise, maybe restricting access to longbows too , as long as they're getting all the bonuses gnomes and halflings get vs. certain creatures to balance it a little.

Anduin

Hell yeah! My Gnome Arnie waves a two-handed sword around his head that is five times bigger than him, shoutings things like...

"They don't like it up 'em"

"The bigger they are the quicker they lose there ankles!"

"Who wan't to see if my humongous sword is an illusion?"

He has strength 19... Can lift and pull more than your average tractor and most importantly...

HE LIKES TO WAVE BIG SWORDS AROUND ! ! ! !

That last bit important...






On the other hand this is completely silly and I agree totally with the person who made the first post.
@Miloch says it can be done... so maybe it will... in a mod... If anyone wants it... Not sure on the depth of feeling here...

Son_of_Imoen

Miloch said:

Maybe he could lie on the ground, knock the arrow, put both feet against the bow shaft and then draw the string back with both hands. But that's silly.

Silly it may be, but you sure put that image in my hand.

I would like weapon restrictions for small races, but it would indeed be nice if there were benefits. I never give halflings or gnomes 2-handed weapons in BG, though I did so in IWD (the heresy) with a fighter-mage wielding bastard swords. For some reason, BG feels more like I want the story to believable, while I see IWD more like a big fighting game. Anyway, I make an exception (to the rule I don't give 2-H weapons to small races) for staves (which are light) and halberds (being a pole-arm, it's a weapon that's meant to give reach to a shorter person - the peasant on the ground vs. the knight on the horse).

Moomintroll

I'm sure I was listening to an In Our Time episode the other day and one of the guests said that shorter people are actually better equipped to use longer swords, due to their lower centre of gravity. I'm also guessing that shorter limbs can provide force more efficiently.

Miloch

Now where would a three-foot gnome sheathe a six-foot two-handed sword exactly? At least a human can put it in a shoulder baldric, but certainly a shorty could not. As for carrying it over his shoulder whilst tramping for days throughout the Sword Coast... um, swords are sharp. I could *maybe* see it for spears, halberds and staves, but not swords. And incidentally, I think even quarterstaves would be a bit ludicrous for shorties to wield properly. Think of the encounter of Robin Hood and Little John at the bridge, with "Little" John actually being a shorty. No way could he do half of those manoeuvres with a six-foot staff if he was only half as tall. That's the whole reason the staff is human-height. A proper gnome staff would be gnome-height (a long club or shillelagh perhaps).

Moomintroll

@Miloch
I would think it likely for there to be a nice bell curve falling over the optimum sword length:warrior height graph.
I could clarify what I mean by saying that, the maximum sword length proportional to the character's own height, increases as the character get's shorter.

eg. A halfling's two handed sword would be longer in relation to how tall the halfing was, than a human's!

Miloch

@Moomintroll - yes, in reality, a longsword (~3' in length) would be a two-handed sword to a halfling, but no way could he possibly wield a real two-handed sword (~6' in length) nor even a bastard sword taller than him. And if you look at most item descriptions (e.g. longbows being 6 to 6.5 feet in length, bow03.itm) in the game, it even says how long they are.

OssiaN

MatteoTurini said:

So, in pen and paper halflings and gnomes had a special relationship with weapons: they could only handle up to medium-sized ones.

In 2ed the dwarves where also restricted in the same way...

Anduin

This thread reminds me of this...



Surely, at the shop when a halfling buys a two-handed sword... He gets a two-handed sword for a halfling...

And magic items can change size! It is a well known fact! Just like armour you find on a dead hobgoblin will fit a dwarf perfectly!

HaHaCharade

This topic sounds dirty

bigdogchris

Speaking of shorties, did the BG2 bug where Giants do not get the penalty to attack vs "shorties" get fixed in BG:EE engine?

@AndreaColombo @Tanthalas