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Cleric/Thief vs Cleric->Thief

shylamanshylaman Member Posts: 173
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I am thinking of playing as either a cleric/thief or a dual class cleric kit -> thief on my next play through of the entire series. I'd dual low level in BG1. If dual what kit would you choose? What level? I don't want some power gamer build where I have to wait until almost the end of BG1 or into BG2 to get an extra 1/2 of whatever. Just trying to get some people pros and cons to see what the differences are.
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Comments

  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,669
    Priest of Lathander would be an ideal choice but the eternal question remains- can it be a justifiable roleplay?
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    Yeah, if you're going to dual in BG1 it's not worth it. I like Priest of Lathander > (whatever) duals, but you're going to want to take them to level 10 or 11 first, which means dualing in BG2. Stick with the multi.

    On the plus side, the Cleric/Thief is the best "thiefy" thief in the game. Sanctuary and Find Traps (spell) make him by far the best at sneaking around, disarming traps, opening locks, looting chests, and returning to the party.
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited July 2017
    If I'd play a legal char, I would either go Shadowdancer -> Cleric until I get my stealth skills to 125 or so and ignore the other thief skills (you can always get Imoen in BGI and Jan Jansen in BGII, even though I HATE HATE HATE Jan because he is so damned annoying, he is a good thief) OR I would multi half-orc cleric/thief, because having 19 str off the bat makes you SOO much stronger early game - and it stacks well with draw upon holy might in later game, no need to use ANY strength bonus items, so you can equip other stuff instead.

    Multi might be a little better, because thief HLAs are really good - yet I feel they cannot compete with Hide in plain sight, that ability rules supreme.

    What sucks about halforcs, though, is that you can only date Viconia.

    I think the best level to dual from thief is lvl 13, because then you get 5X (4X with shadowdancer) as well as the "hidden" evasion bonus (get less dmg from fireballs or something like that, dont remember exactly).

    I would not, ever, go cleric -> thief because the loss of THACO is not worth it.
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 1,049
    Gnome cleric/thief. Good synergy as a thief as noted above, shorty saves, and 19 strength and dexterity in mid/2H BG.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    DrakeICN said:

    What sucks about halforcs, though, is that you can only date Viconia.

    Plus the EE NPCs.
  • shylamanshylaman Member Posts: 173
    I like gnomes. Gnome F/I is awesome. The high strength and dexterity of the Half Orc is awesome, but I just can't ever see myself playing a Half Orc. Maybe as an evil character.

    Maybe I'll EEKEeeper a Cleric kit in for a little added flavor. They all seem decent.

    Lathander: Boon before backstab and melee plus protection from level drain in BG2 could be useful.

    Helm: Might be even better for a C/T. True Sight so I don't have to worry about detect illusion. Especially since as a multi-class it will take longer to develop thief skills. Seeking sword for melee after backstab seems pretty good. Pre-buff with DUHM and other stuff, backstab, Cast seeking sword and go to work. Sounds good.

    Talos: Strom Shield sounds pretty useful. Protection from lightning, fire, cold and normal missiles plus shorty saves sound pretty bad ass. Lighting bolt can be pretty deadly if aimed properly. Cast storm shield, cast sanctuary, sneak up on the enemy, and nuke them with the lighting bolt.

    What kit would you guys choose?
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 858
    I would actually opt for Tempus where available, since Holy Power can turn Strength into a dump stat for basically free for this kit, gives you equivalent Fighter THAC0, and it lasts a linear one round per level. I don't believe it grants APR, but if you're a Cleric/Thief of any make and model you're not getting APR anyway...

    Tyr's perks could also work, though you're stuck with either LN or NG since there are no LG thieves; since it grants better To-Hit and Damage bonuses per 3 levels for 2 rounds (so if you're kEEpering a multi C/T you would cap out at +8 at Cleric 25) and can - hypothetically, anyway - be invoked alongside Holy Power.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    edited July 2017
    Pokota said:

    I would actually opt for Tempus where available, since Holy Power can turn Strength into a dump stat for basically free for this kit, gives you equivalent Fighter THAC0, and it lasts a linear one round per level. I don't believe it grants APR, but if you're a Cleric/Thief of any make and model you're not getting APR anyway...

    Tyr's perks could also work, though you're stuck with either LN or NG since there are no LG thieves; since it grants better To-Hit and Damage bonuses per 3 levels for 2 rounds (so if you're kEEpering a multi C/T you would cap out at +8 at Cleric 25) and can - hypothetically, anyway - be invoked alongside Holy Power.

    High level thief to cleric dual with UAI can certainly use speed weapons, but nobody likes them. Dualing to wizard is one thing, as you're a contributor at lvl 3 with Web already, but to cleric duals are pretty boring. If you dualed from a thief kit you'd have a bloody interesting character though.

    I think the cleric to thief low level dual would be borked but amusing, ie clergyman turned crook. You'd get Sancuary thats always good, and if you take cleric to 5 you get skeletons that could draw enemies into your traps. Aide isn't a bad buff either. Not powergamey but hardly garbage I suppose.
  • shylamanshylaman Member Posts: 173
    I went with a multi priest of talos/thief. I just finished Nashkel Mines. Sanctuary didn't last as long as expected when trying to go through the third level disarming traps. Also, I thought the special ability, cast lighting, would be mo betta. I have tried hiding in shadows and hitting the enemy with lighting, but when up close the lightning never does damage. I have to be away from the enemy a bit, but then I can't aim as well. Hmmm. Maybe Helm or Lathander would have been better.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    WarChiefZeke said:

    Priest of Lathander would be an ideal choice but the eternal question remains- can it be a justifiable roleplay?

    I RP this all the time, usually dualling to another class once my character finds out they have divine essence in them and realizing a) the evil god was using me to steal the murder portfolio, b) the neutral god was helping me to form an friendship/alliance in their favour if or when I ascended, c) my character turns away from their good aligned god feeling unworthy to worship them when they have such a darkness flowing inside.

    They then turn back to the god (regain cleric abilities) with a new found commitment to the faith encompassing the chaos that is being a bhaalspawn into their faith.
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 803
    For C->T, I would wait for level 5 spells: Righteous Magic granting max damage allows for some painful backstabs later in the game, and level 9 cleric isn't the hugest investment ever in terms of experience, maybe two or three minor quests in BG2 to fix?

    For kit, I've always liked Helm for some reason, since True seeing is pretty broken in BG1 and having the option to go 3 APR with a cleric is always nice.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited July 2017
    Priest of Helm level 9--> Thief is one of my favorite build. With level 5 cleric spells, you can buff yourself with awesome stuff like Chaotic Command, Death Ward, Free Action, Righteous Fury, etc... that can make you immune to nasty things and make you hit really hard.

    You set up some traps, backstab real hard (with Seeking Sword if you want, it works), lure into traps then clean up whatever is left with your 3 APR, or 4 if you dual-wield. Pop in a free True Sight if you fight against a mage and your good to go. There ain't much this build can't do. The disadvantage of the Seeking Sword is also not too bad, because the sword last long enough to be useful, but not too much to be an hindrance.

    I'm usually not a fan of dual-classing, but that build holds a special place in my heart.
  • shylamanshylaman Member Posts: 173
    edited July 2017
    @Arctodus the Helm kit does sound interesting. Seeking Sword is 2D4 with 3APR. So, shouldn't that come out to an average of 6-24 damage per round? Even more with DUHM and other buffs? I searched the forums and a lot of people poo poo'd Helm in favor of Lathander because the boon could be used with any weapon. However, it is a lot shorter and you still don't get 3APR.

    Seems like you could set some traps, buff up, backstab with a QS, activate Seeking Sword and be pretty useful in melee. You can't cast spells while the sword is equipped, but since most of the useful cleric spells are buffs, summon skeletons, or healing, and not damage spells in battle, it doesn't seem like a big issue unless I am missing something. The seeking sword with 3APR sounds like it would be as useful as a lot of the standard weapons that you would wield with a cleric/thief THACO.
    Post edited by shylaman on
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,457
    I agree that the Priest of Helm is a pretty good option. That's certainly so in BG1, when APR and damage are good by clerical standards and the inability to cast spells while fighting isn't too much of a restriction. Later in BG2 the restriction bites harder, but it's still a perfectly viable option.
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 992
    edited July 2017
    Pretty much what @Grond0 said. It is a more than viable build, but when you crunch numbers, it is slightly weaker than Priest of Lathander, specially since the boon stacks with itself. 2d4 damage is good in BG1 and early BG2, but any +3 quarterstaff or club will outdamage the Seeking Sword (it doesn't add +4 to damage, which would have been indeed broken).

    I acknowledge that this build is not the absolute powergaming wetdream, but I don't care, because it is just so damn fun. The free True Sight is also nothing to scoff at either.
    Post edited by Arctodus on
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @shylaman You find people calling every class crap at some point. I think pure mages/sorcerors and berserkers are the only exceptions.
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    ThacoBell said:

    @shylaman You find people calling every class crap at some point. I think pure mages/sorcerors and berserkers are the only exceptions.

    And even then, pure mages and sorcerers are not recommended for first-timers because low levels can be brutal.

  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    ThacoBell said:

    @shylaman You find people calling every class crap at some point. I think pure mages/sorcerors and berserkers are the only exceptions.

    Inquisitors, too. F/T and F/C also tend to be pretty hate-proof.

    Even pure mages will be badmouthed if they're generalists.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    tbone1 said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @shylaman You find people calling every class crap at some point. I think pure mages/sorcerors and berserkers are the only exceptions.

    And even then, pure mages and sorcerers are not recommended for first-timers because low levels can be brutal.

    A weird dual classing suggestion I came across was to go Fi3 to Wizard, for the HP and archery, because pure wizard was super squishy if you were a newbie.
  • shylamanshylaman Member Posts: 173
    F/M or F/I is probably close to 100% not poo poo'd on any form dating back to 2000 or F/T. Hell, F/ anything. Hahahaha.
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    shylaman said:

    F/M or F/I is probably close to 100% not poo poo'd on any form dating back to 2000 or F/T. Hell, F/ anything. Hahahaha.

    I'll hate on the F/M multi. Takes too long to get level 9 spells in BG2. Dual or get out. :)
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Eh, dualed mages have bad THAC0 in ToB, and no fighter HLAs really gimps them. Tenser's Transformation and Imp Haste vs Imp Haste and 2 or 3 Critical Strikes is an easy call imo. Oh, and F/I are specialists, so often an edge over dualed. Duals get GM and kit perks, I like an extra spell and HLAs.

    I will say 13 is a more viable dual, but 9 can't melee mooks in ToB without buffs.
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 858
    The only better archer than a Trueclass fighter is the Archer kit.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    subtledoctor said:

    ALL duals are super cheesy since Bioware didn't apply the real game rules to them.

    I'll hate on Berserkers all day long. You're so angry, just so angry, that the devs gave you extra-special bonuses and immunities, because you have unresolved rage issues and they didn't didn't feel like listening to you yell about it anymore. Go home and call a therapist, snowflake.

    Trueclass fighters are real men.

    @subtledoctor I always punch in your option in CDTweaks that enforces PnP rules on dual classes. B)
  • DorcusDorcus Member Posts: 270
    DrakeICN said:

    even though I HATE HATE HATE Jan because he is so damned annoying,

    YOU TAKE THAT BACK :'(
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Jan imho is about the most entertaining character in BG2, shocking how divisive he is though.
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    DreadKhan said:

    Jan imho is about the most entertaining character in BG2, shocking how divisive he is though.

    I can see why people find him annoying, but I love him. His personal quest gives him depth, so you know he's hiding pain, like most comics. And the story of Ano the Dung Orc is pure gold.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    His quest is awfully dark actually, and does indeed suggest his jovial demeanor may be a defence mechanism.
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