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Ridiculous Reputation Loss

In the Gibberling Mountains (east of Nashkel Mines) there's a Flaming Fist soldier that gives you the Samuel Deserter quest. There are multiple dialog options that lead to him attacking you for the crime of having a smart mouth. Now, this is a long mercenary in the wilderness who attacks charname for mouthing off. How can anyone possibly rationalize a 6 point rep hit for this? This should fall into the same category as the merc chasing Viconia or the group of them you meet on the South Beregost Road.
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Comments

  • lelag200lelag200 Member Posts: 118
    You're right, defending yourself against a merc with no self control shouldn't warrant a hit to your rep. You might want to post this in the bug section.
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 525
    edited July 24
    Welcome to the BG reputation system.... ;)

    Keep in mind, that no matter what..A small donation to the church will win you back the hearts and minds of all the people!
    ShikaoThacoBell
  • webspyderwebspyder Member Posts: 27
    I'm well familiar with the rep system. That said, a 6 point drop from a rep of 10 for defending yourself against a single, overzealous merc in the middle of the wilderness is stupid. And the donations are hardly small, using the BG2 tables.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,981
    To me it's no surprise you take a reputation hit for obstructing a soldier trying to do his duty (as he sees it). The Viconia encounter is a bit different, but I would say the anomaly is the Flaming Fist encounter in the same area you refer to - that really should cost reputation to be in line with other encounters in the game.

    If you find yourself in a fight with minions of the law you can of course choose not to kill them. Running away or knocking them unconscious will keep your reputation stainless ...
    Grum
  • webspyderwebspyder Member Posts: 27
    Doing his duty? He literally attacks you for having a smart mouth. Also, he's alone...in the wilderness. How in the world would anyone connect it to you? I'm sorry, but it makes zero sense. Even soldiers can't just go around attacking citizens willy nilly, and the Flaming Fist are mercs - small but important distinction. How is the Viconia encounter even remotely different? If nothing else, it should be more likely to impact your reputation as he is pursuing someone that virtually everyone considers to be evil at a glance.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,579
    edited July 24
    Rough World by @elminster redefines the rep system a bit, if your interested, but I have not trying killing that guy as of yet with the mod to check that particular example.
    Maybe he might could shed some light on it, if it would change there with the mod.


    Regardless of mods though, my own take on this is if no one sees and the Flaming Fist (or whoever) does not have a successful investigation, CHARNAME rep should not take a hit.
    I reckon as things are now, the base system tries to combine alignment and rep together, in a strange way.

    I have always thought it would different to have an alignment change system mod as well, as in 'old skool' AD&D, with resultant penalties to XP. That would be interesting. B)
    EDIT: I would think it would take repeated visits of a rep lvl to enact, but it would be harder to work in with evil playin good for advantage, and maybe easier with 'good' killin innocent, so maybe not, hehheh.
    Post edited by Zaghoul on
    batoorJuliusBorisov
  • Papa_LouPapa_Lou Member Posts: 264
    Slightly off topic, but it only just occurred to me that there is also a Samuel the deserter in Dragon Age: Origins. Moral of the story here, I suppose, is don't trust Samuels.
    ThacoBellwebspyderJuliusBorisov
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,467
    Zaghoul said:

    Rough World by @elminster redefines the rep system a bit, if your interested, but I have not trying killing that guy as of yet with the mod to check that particular example.
    Maybe he might could shed some light on it, if it would change there with the mod.

    Yea the reputation system is definitely not perfect. However, this is original behaviour.

    The mod at the moment likely does not cover this particular encounter. But it's something I can look into for it.
    batoorZaghoulJuliusBorisov
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 525
    edited July 24
    webspyder said:

    I'm well familiar with the rep system. That said, a 6 point drop from a rep of 10 for defending yourself against a single, overzealous merc in the middle of the wilderness is stupid. And the donations are hardly small, using the BG2 tables.

    I didn't say you weren't familiar with it, I was just being a little silly.

    Yeah I don't disagree with that, but I think it's a problem with the whole reputation system at large. It's not really complex enough. The harper in BG and the paladin in the tavern are also two situations that could qualify as self-defense imo.

    The stuff with the donations is just so meta gamey.. and stupid. By following that system, the temples are apparently responsible for clearing your name..as long as you have enough money.

    Not shady at all...^^

    ThacoBell
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 1,981
    webspyder said:

    Doing his duty? He literally attacks you for having a smart mouth.

    True, but it's still your choice to provoke a conflict. Even in RL there are many places in the world where it is very unwise to be a smart mouth when talking to soldiers.
    Also, he's alone...in the wilderness. How in the world would anyone connect it to you?
    I agree that doesn't make much sense, but that's how reputation works in the game - you can't hide your evil deeds. If it helps, you could think of the Flaming Fist as employing diviners to find out what happened to their missing personnel ...
    Even soldiers can't just go around attacking citizens willy nilly, and the Flaming Fist are mercs - small but important distinction.
    The Flaming Fist were founded by Duke Eltan and are working officially as law enforcers in Baldur's Gate and the surrounding area. No wise citizen would mess with them.
    How is the Viconia encounter even remotely different? If nothing else, it should be more likely to impact your reputation as he is pursuing someone that virtually everyone considers to be evil at a glance.
    You've already said that you understand how the reputation system works. Everyone recognises that system has flaws, but it's based on the idea of distinguishing between good and evil acts. It's not always clear in advance which category the game will place an act in and I agree it could have been argued that saving Viconia was evil. However, I think it is generally in keeping with classifications elsewhere in the game that saving the life of a hunted refugee is classed as a neutral act even when that refugee is a drow (you're also not penalised in reputation for letting the Flaming Fist take her though).
    ThacoBellArtonaGrum
  • webspyderwebspyder Member Posts: 27
    elminster said:


    Yea the reputation system is definitely not perfect. However, this is original behaviour.

    I thought that might be the case which is why I didn't bug report it. Seems out of character with the game as it is today though. Even with an imperfect rep system, it seems to have been fixed to some degree, or perhaps my memory simply fails me.

  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    I don't remember the encounter in EE. maybe I skipped or missed it. But in the original game. you had to kind of go out of your way with your mouthiness to start the fight with the guard after him to provoke the fight verbally that then went to blows.

    Where as the guard on your way to nashkel would go off pretty easily. And you can easily find out that the guard going after Viconia is basically being a bigoted jerk but You don't have to fight him to make him stop either.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,123
    @fateless that encounter was indeed there, and unchanged (remember beamdog was contractually prevented from changing ANY existing content). However, if you apologize after being smart, he forgives you and leaves.
    JuliusBorisov
  • GallengerGallenger Member Posts: 316
    You can also wander around gathering gibberlings, wolves, and the like, and then run them towards him and let nature take its course if you hold especial malice towards him, but not enough to do him bodily harm yourself.
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 437
    edited July 25
    Gallenger said:

    You can also wander around gathering gibberlings, wolves, and the like, and then run them towards him and let nature take its course if you hold especial malice towards him, but not enough to do him bodily harm yourself.

    While this is a valid approach, it fails spectacularly if you're on Dorn's quest since then you have to contend with every hostile on the map at virtually the same time, some of whom will not go after the Flaming Fist guy.

    I think @fateless hit the nail on the head - all three Flaming Fist fights are different enough to warrant different penalties.

    Road to Nashkel - They pick a fight with you unless you talk them out of it (these days I usually say I'm working for Amn, which is risky but I don't use CHA as a dump stat and I'm usually trying to keep decent Rep). They're at fault, so no rep impact is expected.

    Viconia - He's being an asshole and attacks you if you call him out on it, but you end up losing rep if you take Viconia anyway so it balances out.

    Samuel's hunter - This guy's just doing his job in trying to bring Samuel (a deserter) to justice, and as has been stated before, you have to go out of your way to pick a fight here. It's obvious that you're at fault if a fight starts, and a rep hit makes the most sense here. I'd rather it were a specific scripted hit instead of the standard "you killed an innocent OMG" hit, however. What makes this situation odd is he shouldn't have jurisdiction in Amn, but does anyway because the map devs weren't paying attention to political borders. It really should be an Amnish soldier, not a Flaming Fist (since Lena wants you to take him to the FAI for sanctuary, which isn't really under FF jurisdiction either but is closer to BG and an unscrupulous patron could more easily kidnap him from there...)

    Admittedly, it's been a while since I paid attention to what Lena said, was Samuel a Flaming Fist deserter?
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    @ThacoBell I may not remember it simply because it was unchanged. And I tend to take Samuel to the Inn because as I recall it's the better reward.


    As for it being a FF soldier. Technically the border is somewhere in the maps just south of Nashkel. Nashkel is a bordertown but it's technically in the BG overseen lands. This is why there are Flaming Fist in the area. While they primarily are the city guard and soldiers for BG they are also in smaller numbers used to keep piece in lands traditionally surrounding and seen as overseen by BG itself. Technically they spread farther north too but we never really see them because the game doesn't carry that far north.
    ThacoBell
  • webspyderwebspyder Member Posts: 27
    edited July 25
    Gallenger said:


    Viconia - He's being an asshole and attacks you if you call him out on it, but you end up losing rep if you take Viconia anyway so it balances out.

    Samuel's hunter - This guy's just doing his job in trying to bring Samuel (a deserter) to justice, and as has been stated before, you have to go out of your way to pick a fight here. It's obvious that you're at fault if a fight starts, and a rep hit makes the most sense here. I'd rather it were a specific scripted hit instead of the standard "you killed an innocent OMG" hit, however. What makes this situation odd is he shouldn't have jurisdiction in Amn, but does anyway because the map devs weren't paying attention to political borders. It really should be an Amnish soldier, not a Flaming Fist (since Lena wants you to take him to the FAI for sanctuary, which isn't really under FF jurisdiction either but is closer to BG and an unscrupulous patron could more easily kidnap him from there...)

    With Viconia, he's only being an asshole if you look at it through modern goggles. If you look at it in the context of the setting, he seems perfectly reasonable and the fact that the party kills him to defend a Drow would be exceptionally chaotic if not evil in the context of the Realms. You are, after all, killing a member of the Flaming Fist to stop him from killing an EVIL character. No matter how useful Viconia is or how much we like her as a character, she is first and foremost evil. It boggles my mind how people can defend killing him while at the same time support the hit for the guy in the gibberling mountains.

    Simply replying "We don't have to answer your stinking questions!" makes him hostile. While mouthy, it hardly gives him right to try to be judge, jury and executioner not to mention it's just stupid, he's outnumbered 6 to 1. It is, at best, poor writing. By the way, the rep hit fails to take context into account here too. If you encounter Samuel first and have him with you, you have to kill the Flaming Fist to protect Samuel. Are you saying it is more evil to kill to protect a deserter than someone who is actually evil?

    DreadKhan
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 2,781
    edited July 25
    webspyder said:

    Simply replying "We don't have to answer your stinking questions!" makes him hostile. While mouthy, it hardly gives him right to try to be judge, jury and executioner

    Well, the Flaming Fist do go around quoting Judge Dredd, so they apparently they are... :wink:
    Post edited by AstroBryGuy on
    DreadKhanThacoBellGrond0
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 437
    webspyder said:

    If you encounter Samuel first and have him with you, you have to kill the Flaming Fist to protect Samuel. Are you saying it is more evil to kill to protect a deserter than someone who is actually evil?

    I... don't think I've ever used the western exit from that map after picking up Samuel. Either I've come from Nashkel and have already encountered the FF Soldier, or else... I've come from Nashkel and have already encountered the FF Soldier.
    DreadKhan
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,399
    Pokota said:

    webspyder said:

    If you encounter Samuel first and have him with you, you have to kill the Flaming Fist to protect Samuel. Are you saying it is more evil to kill to protect a deserter than someone who is actually evil?

    I... don't think I've ever used the western exit from that map after picking up Samuel. Either I've come from Nashkel and have already encountered the FF Soldier, or else... I've come from Nashkel and have already encountered the FF Soldier.
    I most often B-line to the dandy ring, then go find Sam. Incidently, I agree thst fist officer is a tad overzealous. I've reloaded to avoid a catastrophic rep drop, was not happy as it seemed non-intuitive. I could see saddling you with a -2 for killing him, but not full innocent imho. Mod territory I guess!
  • webspyderwebspyder Member Posts: 27
    Pokota said:

    webspyder said:

    If you encounter Samuel first and have him with you, you have to kill the Flaming Fist to protect Samuel. Are you saying it is more evil to kill to protect a deserter than someone who is actually evil?

    I... don't think I've ever used the western exit from that map after picking up Samuel. Either I've come from Nashkel and have already encountered the FF Soldier, or else... I've come from Nashkel and have already encountered the FF Soldier.
    My first play through in recent memory, I encountered Samuel first, before clearing the bottom half of the map and the only access to that area (and the ring of fire resistance) is through the Flaming Fist merc.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    edited July 26
    The situation with viconia is a neutral situation at best. The Flaming fist in the case of Samuel is actually doing something lawful and good. I don't remember if it's with Samuel or if it's from the cleric at the Inn but you can find out he did some somewhat bad things and they are giving him shelter and redemption. It's easiest if you think of that particular flaming fist like a Paladin. It's a lawful good encounter. And you can do the lawful thing of handing Samuel over. The neutral or Chaotic Good thing of taking Samuel to the Priest, Or you can end up doing the evil thing by killing the Flaming Fist in the situation.

    You can look at and treat the one as your heading to Nashkell as Neutral Evil (He's using the law to enforce his will and not really be good). He's all about doing whatever he feels like as long as the Law protects him or he can bend the law to put him "in the right".

    The third one with Viconia is actually more complicated. Viconia may be an evil race but you are technically protecting an innocent. The FLaming Fist may be going after an evil race but ultimately he's trying to murder somebody for no reason. So the whole situation washes out at Neutral at best. Your actions in almost every way are doing something evil and doing something good at the same time and only how you colour it with your perception of the character makes one side better than the other.

    The fact that nobody is around is partly a mechanical issue and partly trying to put real world scenario's into play. You could argue that when it comes to killing. Doing particular acts shows on you in some untangible but reactable way by the people around you when it comes to a world where good and evil are in some sense personified. Or you can argue that you can't be sure somebody didn't happen to wander by and stay hidden in the tree's or whatever that you didn't see and report what you did.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,399
    Don't you grt a rep boost for helping Samuel? That strongly suggests its Good to help him out.
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    I don't remember. I haven't paid attention to rep boosts on most quests in a very very long time. Partly because I don't dump stat charisma (a different kind of powergaming I suppose) which means I don't have many instances of even evil characters leaving me for having high rep. I often end the game with 18-19 charisma on charname.
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 437
    edited July 26
    You get +1 if you deliver him in time.

    @fateless: In the unmodded game, NPCs will leave your party if your reputation clashes too much with their moral alignment. The EE NPCs can come back, but OG NPCs never will if they leave over Reputation. I believe that the threshholds are 19+ for evil characters, 4- for good and 2- for neutral. I'm much less certain about the low end of things since I don't enjoy being a murderous asshat and that's pretty much the only way you can stay on the low end...
    DreadKhan
  • webspyderwebspyder Member Posts: 27
    Pokota said:

    I don't enjoy being a murderous asshat and that's pretty much the only way you can stay on the low end...

    You don't need to be. Simply being mercenary opposed to altruistic is enough to keep a low rep.

  • webspyderwebspyder Member Posts: 27
    fateless said:

    The third one with Viconia is actually more complicated. Viconia may be an evil race but you are technically protecting an innocent.

    Cast detect evil.

    ThacoBell
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,399
    webspyder said:

    fateless said:

    The third one with Viconia is actually more complicated. Viconia may be an evil race but you are technically protecting an innocent.

    Cast detect evil.

    Viconia really isn't an innocent, she's evil, meaning she's committed numerous significant evil acts.
    webspyderThacoBell
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    edited July 27
    Innocent is separate from good and evil.
    Pokota said:

    @fateless: In the unmodded game, NPCs will leave your party if your reputation clashes too much with their moral alignment. The EE NPCs can come back, but OG NPCs never will if they leave over Reputation. I believe that the threshholds are 19+ for evil characters, 4- for good and 2- for neutral. I'm much less certain about the low end of things since I don't enjoy being a murderous asshat and that's pretty much the only way you can stay on the low end...

    these are the base numbers. Charisma changes it. I learned this trick long before EE actually. Your Charisma alters those thresh-holds. The chance that alignment is an issue becomes smaller the higher your charisma gets. it becomes bigger the lower it gets. your not educating me on anything. You can have it where they don't try to leave over reputation. or it happens very rarely(which is an issue more if your willing or not willing to reload) Or have them do it every time you get a rep point and your neutral guys will complain more as well.
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