Improving Minsc's berserk-ability
Loldrup
Member Posts: 291
Minsc's berserk-ability sees very little usage, primarily because he becomes completely uncontrollable when it is activated. This sets his ability in sharp contrast to the similar abilities of Barbarians and Beserkers.
I'm not aware if there are specific historical reasons for this dichotomy; perhaps the Berserker kit and the Barbarian class were introduced later, and the developers forgot to backport one of these improved abilities to Minsc?
I don't see any game balance reasons for Minsc's ability to be significantly inferior.
If back porting one of the newer, better versions of the berserk-ability is too much of a change, then how about doing this:
Leave Minsc's ability exactly as it is *except* for one thing:
Allow the player to direct where Minsc should go.
It might be that he will have a tendency to forgets his order sooner or later (most probably sooner); that's okay, just as long as we can at least try to nudge him a bit in the right direction.
This added controlability might have an important side effect:
When Minsc is in berserker-mode, he sometimes becomes obsessed with chasing down a specific NPC. He keeps chasing the NPC even if the NPC runs around a corner while there are already several enemies right next to Minsc trying to kill him. This is suboptimal, though I'm not asking for this to be fixed, as it might require significant amounts of coding.
However, the improvement to his berserker-ability that I have proposed in this post might, as a side effect, provide some mitigation to Minsc's bad chasing behaviour: it might turn out that giving Minsc a walking order would also make him forget who he was chasing, and then make him choose a potentially new target once he feels like choosing a target. Thus we would at least have *some* method of controlling his targeting.
All in all: at small chance that would improve the strategic aspect of his berserker-ability in several ways, without making his ability anywhere near being overpowered or too easy. It will still require nitty gritty handling to make him do approximately what one wants him to do.
If you're a developer on BGEE: what do you think of this proposal?
I'm not aware if there are specific historical reasons for this dichotomy; perhaps the Berserker kit and the Barbarian class were introduced later, and the developers forgot to backport one of these improved abilities to Minsc?
I don't see any game balance reasons for Minsc's ability to be significantly inferior.
If back porting one of the newer, better versions of the berserk-ability is too much of a change, then how about doing this:
Leave Minsc's ability exactly as it is *except* for one thing:
Allow the player to direct where Minsc should go.
It might be that he will have a tendency to forgets his order sooner or later (most probably sooner); that's okay, just as long as we can at least try to nudge him a bit in the right direction.
This added controlability might have an important side effect:
When Minsc is in berserker-mode, he sometimes becomes obsessed with chasing down a specific NPC. He keeps chasing the NPC even if the NPC runs around a corner while there are already several enemies right next to Minsc trying to kill him. This is suboptimal, though I'm not asking for this to be fixed, as it might require significant amounts of coding.
However, the improvement to his berserker-ability that I have proposed in this post might, as a side effect, provide some mitigation to Minsc's bad chasing behaviour: it might turn out that giving Minsc a walking order would also make him forget who he was chasing, and then make him choose a potentially new target once he feels like choosing a target. Thus we would at least have *some* method of controlling his targeting.
All in all: at small chance that would improve the strategic aspect of his berserker-ability in several ways, without making his ability anywhere near being overpowered or too easy. It will still require nitty gritty handling to make him do approximately what one wants him to do.
If you're a developer on BGEE: what do you think of this proposal?
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Comments
However, it's not correct to say they "forgot" to change his ability. Bioware just chose not to retcon it for BG2 (I'm sure there would have been objections if they had). In addition, Beamdog had some contractual limitations on changes they where allowed to make for BG1 when they added Berserkers and Barbarians.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/65028/npc-kit-true-berserker-minsc-v1-4#latest
I have just tested his berserker-ability again, and it seems as if it is sometimes possible to direct his movement, and sometimes not. His circle goes green when he is moveable, but he still has his extra HP, strength and dexterity, and his berserk status icon.
How is this ability actually supposed to work? Is he really meant to be randomly moveable like this?
If not, then this question might indeed be rephrased as a true bug:
The intended behaviour is that he is moveable, but sometimes this fails due to . This could increase the chance of having it fixed
And the lore "issue" partially goes away if he is actually controllable *sometimes*.
"The distant land of Rashemen has a strong tradition of berserker warriors. The berserkers of Rashemen are organized into lodges named after local creatures, such as the Ice Dragon Berserker Lodge. True to their names, Rashemi berserkers are famed for their mighty rage, but also for their prowess in battle, sense of honor, and fierce loyalty to their land and rulers, the wychlaran. Newly inducted berserkers undertake a coming-of-age tradition known as 'dajemma', a journey far from their homeland to see and understand the world. Often, they travel alongside a wychlaran to whom they are sworn to defend with their lives. The berserkers of Rashemen are the mortal enemies of the Red Wizards of Thay, who they have been at war with for centuries."
PS. I can't use mods as I prefer to play on Android.
As the ability to command Minsc to move is already present (although only enabled some of the time), all it would take to make Minsc's berserker-ability useful is to find the if-clause that sometimes disables the move-ability, and... delete it! Oh please
Besides, it is technically more easy to switch an ability for a different one than make that sort of modification.
And at least then he won't kill his own witch because of his rage...
Cast remove curse whenever you want control?
Any hints for how to manage Minsc..?
TBH, I saved it just for harder battles. If I ran him again I'd definitely use the mod I mentioned.
Not the cursed one in BG1, this bigun from the SoD chapter.
*Item spoiler*
I could see a nerfed version of berserk ability working this way. You take away the protection from Maze, Imprisonment and level drain (which makes no sense in my opinion), let you attack whoever you want, but restrict item usage and hide hp. It still be useful, but just not completely OP. Berserk works more like a mind shield than a berserk ability right now.
Also, while Berserk, death effects like Finger of Death are supposed to be delayed until after the rage is over. I don't think there is a way to easily implement this, but perhaps giving a bonus to saves vs Death while enraged?
http://mods.pocketplane.net/readmes/readme_ub.html#feralan
I know Barbarian and monk were brought in to add some stuff from 3E, but they must have realised how similar Barb felt to the berserker kit? Now if Feralan hadn't been cut during development... well that's a lot of nearly identical kits^^
So, if I were to program that, let's say that your barbarian/berserker/hamsterwrangler has N hitpoints and goes into rage, now at fN, where f Is some bonus factor. We now apply the immunities, bonuses, penalties, etc. Mayhem ensues and the b/b/hw mows through enemies, innocent bystanders, small trees, etc. All damage accrued is not applied and is instead stored in a counter. As long as the damage in the buffer is less than fN, the b/b/w keeps going. This models the berserker being oblivious to pain until the red mist ends. At that point, bonuses and penalties are removed so the character stats return to normal, all damage from the buffer is applied to the b/b/hw. So a berserker could have 32hp, rage away at say 64hp and take 25hp while raged. When he comes out, he has 32 - 25 = 7 hp. If he takes 38, that's 32 - 38 = -6 and he dies instantly. If he dies with less than -10 hp, he's chunked.
That means that berserking is effective but very risky. One would have to have healers watching the damage taken to keep the b/b/hw from a post-rage death. But hey, that sounds, well, "realistic" is too strong a word since we're talking Magic, but you know what I mean.
I am certain that some would bicker and argue about this, but go read some of the sagas or chronicles from monks in France or Anglo-Saxon England or Wales about facing these guys.
In 1st edition the Barb had no rage.
In the 2nd this was reserved for the Ravager kit, whose rage ability is shown. I don't know anything about 3rd.
A Ravager remains enraged for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution. If he refrains from melee combat for two consecutive rounds, either by choice or circumstance, he loses his rage; he may continue to fight normally. He may also voluntarily end his rage at any time. An enraged Ravager acquires the following benefits, which last until his rage ends:
*He gains +2 on his attack and damage rolls. He gains a -2 bonus to Armor Class (to a maximum of AC 0).
*All attackers suffer a -1 penalty to their damage rolls.
*He gains +2 to all saves vs. charms or mental-based attacks.
*All attackers suffer a -1 penalty to their damage rolls.
Weaponless Combat: When attacking with bare hands, the Ravager infIicts damage as if attacking with a club (ld6 hp damage).
Special Hindrances: Become Enraged (Penalties): A Ravager suffers the following penalties when enraged:
An enraged Ravager must choose a particular opponent as his primary target. Once combat begins, he can’t change opponents until his primary target escapes or is slain. If he changes opponents, the Ravager automatically loses his rage. When his rage ends, the Ravager must make another save vs. death magic. If the save succeeds, he suffers no ill effects from the rage. If the save fails, he immediately becomes exhausted. He endures the following penalties until he rests for one full hour: He can’t become enraged, voluntarily or involuntarily; he suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls, and his base movement is reduced to normal
Involuntary Rage.
Certain events may cause the Ravager to lose his temper and become enraged involuntarily.
Typical events:
*The Ravager is insulted or offended.
*A beloved friend or animal dies unexpectedly. He hears news of an enemy’s victory, an ally’s treachery, or a spouse’s unfaithfulness.
*A favorite weapon or piece of equipment lost, stolen, misplaced, or damaged.
If a triggering event has occurred, the Ravager clenches his fists, grinds his teeth, and growls, thereby warning his companions a state of rage is imminent; they have ld4 rounds to hide or otherwise prepare themselves.
At the end of ld4 rounds, he saves vs. death magic. If the save succeeds, the Ravager suppresses his anger, and nothing happens.
If the save fails, he flies into a rage, acquiring all benefits associated with a voluntary rage described above. The involuntary rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Ravager’s Constitution.
Unlike a voluntary rage, an involuntary rage won’t end prematurely; it lasts a Constitution score’s worth of rounds, regardless of circumstance. The Ravager directs his rage at whoever insulted him, gave him the bad news, or harmed his companion; he attacks relentlessly. If he kills his victim, he continues his rage against the nearest innocent bystander (perhaps a fellow PC). If no victim or bystander is available, he directs his rage at the nearest inanimate object. His companions may attempt to restrain him until the rage subsides. When the rage ends, he make another save vs. death magic to check for exhaustion, as described above
Somewhere along the line it was made more useable because that's definitely not the experience now, and he no longer becomes a major threat to the player/party when the enemies have been vanquished.
I use it all the time, now, in BG1, the only game I really take him along anymore. He goes berserk, becomes uncontrollable when close enough to enemies, but the uncontrollability is now contingent on the proximity of his foes. If the enemies are gone, he comes to his senses again at the end of the round, but retains the bonuses for the two turns of his ability. If enemies are re-encountered, the loss of control is delayed until he gets in really close to the enemy. This is really important since previously, if you were walking around and sighted an enemy while he was enraged, he would instantly go yellow and start hacking at the party (if travelling with them). Now, he is controllable until he makes his charge away from the party and into the fray, going yellow only once he's at the enemy's figurative gate. This makes him a wrecking machine as a solo front-liner.
He is still a risk to party mates if there is more than one frontliner in close combat, as he still chooses the nearest target to attack (friend or foe) after he destroys a target, which makes the positioning of Shar-Teel or Kagain, or whoever else is fighting, really important (keep and enemy or two between them and Minsc) but from an RP perspective that makes sense to me. Someone who is bersek really should just hack away at anything and everything in sight.
While gameplay-wise it differs from the berserker ability, of all the rage-type abilities in the game it's the closest thing to actual 'berserk' you can get. I don't think it needs to be changed.
I'd also argue that Mincs' berserker duration of 2 turns makes his ability superior to barbarian and berseker kits if properly harnessed.
At any rate, it can't be any worse than that god-awful bard ability defensive-spin, which is practically an instant "I lose" button. If you can't move, you're dead. Minsc not being charname further helps to mollify the impact of the lack of control, at least.