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rogues aren't good enough

I dislike the thief class in baldurs gate because it's only real skill that is not expendable is pick pockets. Traps can be tanked, there are spells for invisibility and locks, and back stabs aren't the only way of doing lots of burst damage. You only need one mage with a few low level spells to do the majority of what the rogue does. As nice as it is to pick the occasion free action ring, or regeneration ring, its pretty far from making rogue the peer the warrior and magic classes who are basically the bread and butter of any successful group. With the way class balance stands right now I think I'd rather take a bard and download a wand of unlocking mod if I could find one.
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Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,058
    While I personally also dislike Thieves, there's no question they have tremendous potential to be exploited. There is little that can compete with Spike Trap spam or Mislead + Backstab in terms of damage output. It's so ridiculous I myself just flat-out refuse to use it.
    semiticgodStummvonBordwehr
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 1,224
    My easiest BG(2)EE run was with a Half-Orc Assassin all the way from Candlekeep to the Throne of Bhaal.

    I mean: really really easy. Specially when you get the HLA traps.

    It was so easy that, as @Lord_Tansheron , will never do it again.
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 182
    edited August 10
    Khyron said:

    I suppose a thief will indeed be rather lackluster.. unless you're using a swashbuckler and tanking everything with your ludicrous AC and killing stuff with your ludicrous hit damage..

    Or unless you're an assassin and backstabbing and poisoning folks like a boss..

    or unless you're a bounty hunter and laying so many traps you barely even need to "fight", just watch the enemy kill themselves on pre-placed goodiebags.

    Or unless you're a Fighter/Thief half-orc with ludicrous strength and constitution, wielding carsomyr, ring of gaxx, some dragon plate, helm of balduran, cloak of displacement, belt of inertial barrier, laying traps left right and center which instagibs bloody demogorgon.. and if it doesn't, you'll pop whirlwinds, thief evasion hla, fighter hardiness hla, and become next to bloody invincible while you slash the ever living crap out of anything and anyone with carsomyr..


    ... oh wait, I could go on like this for a while.. I guess thief is kinda OP.

    I said nothing about fighters not been good, so I don't know why you brought that into it. rogue kits are what I meant for the topic to say. Are you going to try telling me an all paladin group couldn't eat an all rogue group for breakfast, or that a mages magic spells aren't a match for rogue traps? The rangers stalker kit is pretty similar to a fighter/thief too, and although not invulnerable to anything is still very resliant with its minor spell turning and ability to shrug off 80% of physical damage. And the bard gets all the best rogue stuff and is pretty good at backing up the real fighters and mages too. Did you choose to forget this?
    Skatan
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 7,655
    Thieves can succeed through any encounter in the game… in ways which have a slightly cheesy scent. A whiff of bleu.

    If you avoid such gameplay and play it straight, thieves are weak. So the problem is not that thieves are bad, it's that thieves are uninteresting and slightly cheesy.

    The answer, as usual, is "mods."
    typo_tilly
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,000
    If I don't backstab or use traps often with a thief, I find they're underwhelming. I do like them for flavour, though. CHARNAME is usually a thief.

    Lay traps in hallways and bait the enemy back. When the trap strikes, backstab the survivors. :D
    Aerakar
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,579
    I myself like to have a good pickpocket in the group. Hock every dadblame item I can, steal it back, then sell everything you don't need a second time to a fence. No cheatin, no cheese, just good cold cash the good ol roguish way (glad the repeated steal/sell back was fixed by the way). What's not to love? B)
    I notice this is MUCH more risky in SoD. The stealin rules musta changed there.
    typo_tilly
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 197
    Isn't just about any skill expendable? If you by expendable mean something that isn't the one and only solution to a situation.
    typo_tilly
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,026
    JoenSo said:

    Isn't just about any skill expendable? If you by expendable mean something that isn't the one and only solution to a situation.

    ....... Considering that people have done solo runs with every class, I suppose so. But good gravy is it easier with a healer. Or a thief. Etc.
    ArtonaZaghoul
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 702
    I need a thief for every run I do, but at the same time I never feel like using them to full extent and their usefullnes diminished after they reach 9 level or something. They are worth 0,5 slot to me and I have pretty similar feelings towards clerics. For that reason I like Tiax very much (and Glint), because he occupies one slot and fullfills my support needs of both support classes.
    Raduzieltypo_tillyMirandelQueegon
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 197
    tbone1 said:

    JoenSo said:

    Isn't just about any skill expendable? If you by expendable mean something that isn't the one and only solution to a situation.

    ....... Considering that people have done solo runs with every class, I suppose so. But good gravy is it easier with a healer. Or a thief. Etc.
    Exactly my point. You -can- of course tank through traps or rely on knock for locks, but a thief will solve those particular problems much easier. That's why their skills are not any more expendable than say a fighter' combat skills or a cleric's heal.
  • ZagaciousZagacious Member Posts: 55
    edited August 12
    I think what the OP is saying is being misunderstood, he's saying that the base Thief or base Assassin is very weak, which it is. Assassin is much better than plain Thief, but it's base thac0 is pretty bad and I found it hard to reliable backstab much of anything, half the time poison weapon wasn't even reliable because of not hitting enough, even with 19 dex/18 str.

    That's why I EEKeeper Half Orc Fighter/Assassin, or what I'm doing now a full BG1-2 run with a solo Elf Fighter/Mage/Assassin, which is crazy strong and definitely OP, but Fighter/Assassin to me actually feels like what base Assassin should be. Same with Fighter/Thief in general is way stronger than any base Thief to the point almost no one who knows better would ever use base Thief.
    typo_tilly
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,000
    edited August 12
    A fighter/thief outfights a pure thief of any kind, but a plain thief or swashbuckler progresses in points much faster. I prefer having access to all thief skills by early-mid game in BG2, because that's my play style. That means either having one pure thief or two multi-class thieves. If you enjoy using thief skills often and early, you'll want a pure thief. :)
    ShikaoAerakarArctodusBelgarathMTH
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 489
    Agree with @DreadKhan on BG2 high 'to hit' bonuses being invaluable for a backstabbing non-fighter thief. As noted, quarterstaff is a great option due to high 'to hit' being available early (Staff of Rhynn and/or Staff of Striking), plus blunt damage has fewer negative modifiers versus the various armor types helping further.
    Gusindatypo_tilly
  • ZagaciousZagacious Member Posts: 55
    edited August 14

    A fighter/thief outfights a pure thief of any kind, but a plain thief or swashbuckler progresses in points much faster. I prefer having access to all thief skills by early-mid game in BG2, because that's my play style. That means either having one pure thief or two multi-class thieves. If you enjoy using thief skills often and early, you'll want a pure thief. :)

    Fighter/Thief has plenty of points at the beginning of BG 2 though for Find Traps & Lock Picking, unless you also want to specialize in pick pockets, stealth, set trap, etc, but those can wait.
  • squirossquiros Member Posts: 18
    it's also opportunity cost. casting knock robs you of 1000 xp that a thief would give. later on, it's 1750 xp you lose and costing you a health potion instead.
    also, thieves will outfight any fighter by a large margin. especially later. this is especially true of harder fights where neither mages nor fighters can hit. my thief solos demigorgon and other dragons every playthrough in a full party because the other party members can't contribute much in the 1 round that spike traps take to kill a high level enemy.
    Balrog99ThacoBelltypo_tilly
  • SkatanSkatan Member Posts: 2,421
    I understand what you mean @unavailable and I used to agree with you, but then I started to play more rogues myself as charname and also with smaller parties or at least running around alone more often (leaving the party at the start of a dungeon or the exit to a map) and realized they are very capable. But when a full party, buffed up, clash with a group of enemies and your fighters are unleashing hell with their high damage and high APR and your mages are sending waves of damage and debuffs across the battlefield, yes thieves can indeed seem very lackluster. You might micro a single BS then let them stand next to your fighters swinging with their puny 1 APR and shitty THAC0 or shooting arrows from a far with no damage bonus at all and you think they kinda suck. I used to do this for a long time, only really using them actively for disarming traps and locks and I felt then what you seem to feel now.

    But as said, then I started to play them more solo and realized they are very capable. I still think their THAC0 progression is ridiculously low and pathetic (except swashies ofc, though it takes a long time until that added THAC0 makes a decent difference and they don't have any BS) and assassins should get THAC0 boosts more than they have. I'd prefer the assassins to rather get like +8 to hit from stealth and stop at +5-6 multiplier instead of going to +7 multiplier and only get +1 THAC0 at creation. The ONLY way to get fairly decent hits in with a pure thief (in melee) is to get the +3 THAC0 from 19 STR (or higher) and use the staff of Rynn or similar high-enchanted weapon. An elf assassin using swords get +2 THAC0, so combined with STR THAC0 you get decent % to hit from stealth, but swords have on average slower speed which can be annoying sometimes when hitting from stealth. It's still too low THAC0 boost though IMHO and thus you often need to boost the thief with a high level STR potion before battle to consistently hit in melee.

    So, IMHO the low THAC0 is the only real drawback of the single class thief. It can be circumvented through extensive use of buffs and items but I still think they are relatively too weak in melee to the other classes. The +4 from stealth is often not enough to make you hit consistently if you have a decent STR of say 18 and a weapon with like +2 or similar, not even with the fast level progression of the pure thief. That's why thieves are best played as dualclassed from fighters or as multiclassed IMHO. I'd much rather have two multiclassed thieves to cover all the skills needed (ie Charname F/T or Montarion and Tiax/Glint/Jan Jensen or similar setups) than one SC thief, at least if I start from BG1 and therefore have to level them up from scratch.

    Bountyhunters are great though, but IMHO then you have to have a second thief anyways since it takes a fairly long time to get 90+ in locks, disarm traps and set traps, especially if you use Yoshimo and not have a charname. Combined with Nalia or a charname Yoshi can be a fun NPC (for some time, you know the deal).



    I probably should read through before posting, but have a meeting now so have to post :) I hope it at least partyly makes sense, hehe..
    Grond0AerakarThacoBelltypo_tilly
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