@Pantalion: Hats off for you, dear sir. I totally agree with what you said. To be honest, I'm literally sick about all of this pointless ranting about the sexuality of the BG characters. Does it matter? Nowadays RPGs have to include romances and sex scenes or they aren't considered RPGs anymore. Just look at the blatant sex The Witcher 2 promotes. Realistic, yes, but tasteless. Do I need to see Geralt banging Triss in such detail? No. I even skipped the sex scenes, it's what I always do in games which include them. So, according to @Mungri, I'd be a prudish religious fanatic. LOL, thanks for the narrow-minded view, dude. I may be a Christian, I assure you, I'm almost atheistic in my views. It's just that I, unlike others, don't need to see virtual pussies and dicks and get a kick out of it. I play games for the story and the mental development and personalities of the characters, not for some damn virtual banging. It's one of those things that's still part of the negative stigma surrounding games and the gaming community up to today, by the way. If only games could tone down the exaggerated bust sizes and enlarged asses on women, games might finally be taken serious for once.
Yet no one is talking about virtual banging, and BG2 has romance options already in the game. 'Prude' was probably the wrong term to use, narrow mindedness is probably much more accurate.
I must say I find it mildly amusing that the person claiming others are narrow minded is the one who believes that everyone who doesn't like the same things he likes and everyone who doesn't share his sense of humour are "immature".
You don't have to like the same things I like, I never stated that. But being so strongly opposed to other peoples discussions is narrow mindedness.
I wonder, what do you do if you come across two random people kissing and groping each other in public? Do you walk up to them and start complaining about how offended and disgusted you are over what you saw?
No, though I may roll my eyes and think that such groping might be more appropriate in the privacy of their own home, something I believe I've consistently explained to you over the span of several posts that continues to elude you.
There is also the question of severity and context of course, if this public place was, for example, in the middle of a funeral, then yes, I probably would go over and tell them that their behaviour was inappropriate. Likewise if their sloppy makeouts started getting hotter and heavier than is appropriate in a public place; their exhibitionism, like yours, does not entitle them to behave as they please, we all have a responsibility to ourselves and each other to restrain our behaviour when interacting with others, this is the foundation of Karma.
As for your comment about BG discussion, please note that this is a forum about Baldur's Gate, arguably conversations about Baldur's Gate are its direct and explicit function. If you are uninterested in discussing Baldur's Gate, I would suggest you consider ceasing to post here.
So feel free to run around in nightclubs, pubs, and restaurants telling anyone you see kissing and hugging to get out and find a room to do such things in and see who gets kicked out first, you or them. I take it you've never been on a date or kissed / hugged another person in public ever based on your comment?
In the correct context, there is nothing inappropriate about these discussions on an internet forum.
Discussions about NPCs sexualities are also discussions about BG, so if you don't like them then take your own advice and stop posting here?
@Pantalion: Yet again I agree. Personally I think displays of affection are best kept for in private. I'm okay with kisses, hugs and cuddling, but when it gets more passionate, that's best to be reserved for behind closed doors. There's a reason the phrase 'Get a room!' exists, y'know. Am I therefore 'prudish' just because I don't go all out on my boyfriend in public? I'd rather say that I have a good sense of decency and about what is appropriate in public and what not.
I view most of these discussions as fairly light-hearted and I don't think they should be taken seriously. On the other hand, a personal pet peeve of mine is when someone looks at a character (portrayed in any medium) and decides they must be secretly gay just because they didn't happen to be overtly heterosexual during the brief portion of their life we saw within the game/film/book/whatever. The reason it annoys me is because people do that in real life too, sometimes - I have had many people assume I was lesbian just because I didn't throw myself at the nearest available penis, despite the fact that I had shown no sexual interest in women either. Sometimes, a person or character's sexuality is unknown. Can't we just accept that we don't know and move on?
@Pantalion: Yet again I agree. Personally I think displays of affection are best kept for in private. I'm okay with kisses, hugs and cuddling, but when it gets more passionate, that's best to be reserved for behind closed doors. There's a reason the phrase 'Get a room!' exists, y'know. Am I therefore 'prudish' just because I don't go all out on my boyfriend in public? I'd rather say that I have a good sense of decency and about what is appropriate in public and what not.
You can do whatever you like, yet why do other peoples discussions or actions? I've never actually heard the phrase 'get a room' used anywhere other than on TV, and the UK club culture is full of minimally dressed women, and people kissing, hugging and groping just about everywhere. The question is why do other peoples actions / discussions offend you, not whether you do them yourself or not.
@LadyRhian, thank you for another thoughtful and well-written analysis of the human condition, as well as of the romances in the game. I think you are right.
In my current run, I've been following the Jaheira romance path for the first time, and I think her romance comes the closest from among the choices in BG to being a little more like what you say would make a good romance story. She shares her grief about Gorion and Khalid with you, but she doesn't expect you to fix it for her. She also asks you how you are doing, and she makes supportive comments of understanding what it must be like to bear the burden of being a Bhaalspawn.
Except for what I've seen of Jaheira so far, the other romances do indeed seem to be a little one-sided. Okay, maybe a lot one-sided.
@Mungri: I do not concern myself with the UK club culture, nor do I go to clubs myself. If women like to dress like sl*ts, it's their choice, but that won't raise their respect in my eyes. Just my view on the matter. As for why other people's actions offend me? Uh, because certain things I see happening around me go against my own views, I form an opinion about them and therefore get offended? I would think that's pretty much self-explanatory, lol.
So feel free to run around in nightclubs, pubs, and restaurants telling anyone you see kissing and hugging to get out and find a room to do such things in and see who gets kicked out first, you or them. I take it you've never been on a date or kissed / hugged another person in public ever based on your comment?
In the correct context, there is nothing inappropriate about these discussions on an internet forum.
Discussions about NPCs sexualities are also discussions about BG, so if you don't like them then take your own advice and stop posting here?
Do you really feel yourself losing the argument so terribly that you feel it necessary to dance away from every point I've made in order to argue with things I haven't said to have a hope?
1: Groping, not "hugging", don't backpedal. Everyone can see what you said. Kissing and hugging are not the same thing as groping, groping indicates a sexual context.
2: Since you should be able to see what I said, but apparently are having difficulty doing so, let me give you the short form:
Out in public: Pan rolls his eyes and thinks that they're behaving inappropriately. At a funeral: Pan tells them to cut that out, they're being disrespectful. Dry humping and stripping off in public: Pan tells them to cut that out, they're being disrespectful.
So yeah, nowhere do I mention telling people to do anything except respect themselves and others.
Now, if someone is "groping" in a Nightclub or bar, then that is a different social setting to "out in public", a family pub with children around however, is rather less appropriate. It's still inappropriate (in most venues) to start stripping down and dry humping on the floor.
Groping one another in the class of restaurant I am most likely to frequent, yes, they would be very swiftly asked to stop if they were disturbing the other diners, and not by me. In fact, in most cafés, fast food locations, takeaways and moderately shady diners I frequent they would be told to pack it in, perhaps remarkably to you.
And yes, somehow I have managed to avoid grabbing my spouse's genitals whilst we are in public. Perhaps remarkably, when I gaze out of the window and walk down the street nobody else is doing it either. Have you considered you just hang around in places with no class?
"In the correct context" as you've correctly put it, would presumably be when a third of the forum aren't sick of them, multiple people haven't pointed out that they're inappropriate, multiple other people haven't pointed out that they're just plain stupid, and all of four people actually want to see more of them. Society creates context, and you are by no means important enough to deny that.
Whilst nobody really cares enough to curtail your behaviour, and you are technically able to do as you wish, liberty ends when your actions impact on others, and failure to regulate your behaviour to accommodate others is the behaviour of children.
Groping would simply indicate touching each other in places such as the breasts, bum, thighs, not undressing or anything else.
I don't feel offended when I see people doing that, I have no idea why you do. Such acts are not illegal in public places in the UK either, not even in front of children. As long as there is no indecent exposure, you cannot police other people if they are talking about sex or consensually groping each other in public. Nothing about such things is indecent.
Your inability to comprehend others as distinct individuals who do not feel the same way as you about things has already been expanded upon in my previous posts, please feel free to check them out back on page 2.
So if you find such things offensive, ignore them and stop complaining. I comprehend people fine. You simply being offended over other peoples conversations or public displays of affection does not give you any right to stop them from doing that just because you are offended. If you think what people are doing is breaking the law, then call the police. You would likely just end up being laughed at by everyone. I don't even think you would have the guts to go up to other people IRL and tell them to stop being intimate or to stop talking about sexuality. I wonder what would happen to you if a gay pride parade went down your street, your brain would probably explode.
Does my failure to give you a white card to do whatever you please without consequence offend you?
Perhaps it is the fact that time and time again I've rebuffed your arguments so thoroughly you've been losing ground throughout the entire thread, unable to adequately contest anything I've said?
Do you find being called out for your childish behaviour offensive?
Do you still remain as unable to grasp why people may want to talk or not talk about different things, and hold to the notion that you should be able to say and do whatever you like, regardless of the fact that pretty much nobody anywhere has leapt to your defence?
I'm thinking yes, which was exactly why you and I began this discussion, whilst I am apathetic to you and your urge to post nonsense, you were claiming others who were unhappy with your nonsense were being immature. You can claim that you comprehend people fine, except you've just said that you don't understand why "I" feel offended, at the beginning of the conversation, you've said that people are immature for not wanting to talk about sexuality, and have generally contradicted yourself at every turn.
I can't imagine why you would think I would find one form of sexuality any more or less acceptable than any other, and whilst I consider Gay Pride about as stupid as White Pride, Black Pride, Straight Pride, or pride about any other aspect of people's personalities over which they have no control, I would still consider a parade to be a more appropriate social context for a wider range of actions than a restaurant or randomly in the street.
Now, if you seek to surround yourself only with such behaviour and such environments, I can understand why you might consider it universally acceptable, however this is not the case in business settings, family settings, restaurants you have to wear a tie to attend, or the vast majority of social interactions. One does not have to feel personally offended to consider behaviour inappropriate, nor does it have to be offensive to be childish.
And no, people do not have a right to not be offended, it is not illegal to offend someone. It is, however, and I feel I'm repeating myself here, childish and tacky to do things that offend others just for the sake of being offensive, as you've said yourself that you enjoy doing. For all your talk about immaturity, you're effectively the little boy who chases little girls with dead frogs and claims enlightenment by doing so.
I am quite serious here, you are arguing from the position of a child, to operate outside of the restraints of society, to deny the consequences your actions have on others and to do as you please without consequence. I am arguing from the position of an adult, to regulate your behaviour to account for the sensibilities those around you. If you wish to keep arguing from that position and defend it as being mature, you are welcome to, but you will continue to do so at an acute disadvantage of being wrong.
@Shandyr: Whilst I do note that he has fabricated several things I've either not said, or explicitly said something different, I have assumed no further than what Mungri has stated clearly enough for himself, I certainly have no need for more than he has provided.
I believe I have made my apathy abundantly clear elsewhere, however I can say definitively that he is neither capable of offending me, nor making me hold any particular animosity towards him.
As to your question, I would consider him retracting his initial stance which caused me to call him out on his behaviour a satisfactory outcome of this discussion. Other than that, I am more than happy to continue pointing out where he is being unreasonable until he stops for even a moment to consider that he is required to limit his behaviour when in civilised society and stops arguing with that fact.
Considering he has begun going in circles, I may be able to achieve this by simply quoting earlier posts on the matter.
@Pantalion, @Mungri, aww, come on, guys, I'm with @Shandyr on this one. Your fight is spoiling everybody's fun. If this were a barfight, they'd say "take it outside", and the police would be called if you didn't go.
I agree with the suggestion that you two should go to pm if you want to keep fighting. Which one of you will be the better man (or woman), take the high road, and make peace first?
If we were in a bar, according to the behavior displayed in this thread, Pentalion would be offended about me and my fag hag discussing who we think is hot and not.
He would come up to us and demand that we stop calling him hot, or not hot. We would laugh and ignore him, but he would carry on being offended and further push into a fight. Security would be alerted by either me or my friend (or both), and he would be removed from the bar while we carried on playing our harmless game.
TBH I think that people who call others immature / kids for discussing sexuality are themselves displaying infantile behavior. I studied everything about sexual development and sexuality as part of my degree, including penile and vaginal development and STDs. I wonder if such people were in that class, they would have been calling the 50 something year old female lecturer an immature kid with no sex life, rather than accepting that it is a fascinating subject that most grown ups can simply discuss without being offended.
Do you randomly walk up to strangers and ask them about their sex lives? I'm fairly sure that if you tried it you'd actually find that "most grown ups" would look at you askance. No, there's nothing wrong with sex or sexuality, and no, there's nothing wrong with discussing it in the appropriate setting (unless your teacher decided she was going to hang out in public swimming pools and educate people there, I imagine that was a classroom setting with people who wished to be there).
This said, no, someone asking you to keep it in your pants because they don't really want to discuss that topic with strangers on the internet is no more immature than not wanting to talk religion, politics, or any other topic they may wish to keep in a more conservative social circle, or may simply not be interested in.
Part of maturity is growing to understand that people are all different, and may not be interested in doing the things you want to do.
Id just like to point out the beginning of our little argument here, feel free to decide for yourselves which one went off topic.
Ok. There is nothing wrong with the discussion of sexuality of NPCs, and such discussions dont have anything to do with sexual intercourse, I.e. exactly what I said at first.
Is that on topic? Now lets wait and see how people respond to it with insults about me being immature or things about my mother.
I blame Mass Effect for these romance and sexuality threads. Before ME romances weren't that big a deal. They were there but they were hardly prominent. Now they are supposedly as important as the story and plot. I still remember how Anders came on to me in DA II, and out of the fricken blue no less. Cue WTF from me - he's my best friend, I didnt flirt with him. Was that necessary?
And jesus christ this thread IS a fucking trainwreck. Just look at yourselves. I summon the power of @Tanthalas to close this; its just out of hand.
TL;DR: Newsflash: romances are not important. Sexuality is not important. This is a GAME.
Comments
I wonder, what do you do if you come across two random people kissing and groping each other in public? Do you walk up to them and start complaining about how offended and disgusted you are over what you saw?
There is also the question of severity and context of course, if this public place was, for example, in the middle of a funeral, then yes, I probably would go over and tell them that their behaviour was inappropriate. Likewise if their sloppy makeouts started getting hotter and heavier than is appropriate in a public place; their exhibitionism, like yours, does not entitle them to behave as they please, we all have a responsibility to ourselves and each other to restrain our behaviour when interacting with others, this is the foundation of Karma.
As for your comment about BG discussion, please note that this is a forum about Baldur's Gate, arguably conversations about Baldur's Gate are its direct and explicit function. If you are uninterested in discussing Baldur's Gate, I would suggest you consider ceasing to post here.
In the correct context, there is nothing inappropriate about these discussions on an internet forum.
Discussions about NPCs sexualities are also discussions about BG, so if you don't like them then take your own advice and stop posting here?
Wait, you're saying that... WE DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING??
I refuse to believe that, i shall not falter, i shall not falter, i shall not falter...
P.S. I agree (in case i failed to pass the sarcasm :])
In my current run, I've been following the Jaheira romance path for the first time, and I think her romance comes the closest from among the choices in BG to being a little more like what you say would make a good romance story. She shares her grief about Gorion and Khalid with you, but she doesn't expect you to fix it for her. She also asks you how you are doing, and she makes supportive comments of understanding what it must be like to bear the burden of being a Bhaalspawn.
Except for what I've seen of Jaheira so far, the other romances do indeed seem to be a little one-sided. Okay, maybe a lot one-sided.
1: Groping, not "hugging", don't backpedal. Everyone can see what you said. Kissing and hugging are not the same thing as groping, groping indicates a sexual context.
2: Since you should be able to see what I said, but apparently are having difficulty doing so, let me give you the short form:
Out in public: Pan rolls his eyes and thinks that they're behaving inappropriately.
At a funeral: Pan tells them to cut that out, they're being disrespectful.
Dry humping and stripping off in public: Pan tells them to cut that out, they're being disrespectful.
So yeah, nowhere do I mention telling people to do anything except respect themselves and others.
Now, if someone is "groping" in a Nightclub or bar, then that is a different social setting to "out in public", a family pub with children around however, is rather less appropriate. It's still inappropriate (in most venues) to start stripping down and dry humping on the floor.
Groping one another in the class of restaurant I am most likely to frequent, yes, they would be very swiftly asked to stop if they were disturbing the other diners, and not by me. In fact, in most cafés, fast food locations, takeaways and moderately shady diners I frequent they would be told to pack it in, perhaps remarkably to you.
And yes, somehow I have managed to avoid grabbing my spouse's genitals whilst we are in public. Perhaps remarkably, when I gaze out of the window and walk down the street nobody else is doing it either. Have you considered you just hang around in places with no class?
"In the correct context" as you've correctly put it, would presumably be when a third of the forum aren't sick of them, multiple people haven't pointed out that they're inappropriate, multiple other people haven't pointed out that they're just plain stupid, and all of four people actually want to see more of them. Society creates context, and you are by no means important enough to deny that.
Whilst nobody really cares enough to curtail your behaviour, and you are technically able to do as you wish, liberty ends when your actions impact on others, and failure to regulate your behaviour to accommodate others is the behaviour of children.
I don't feel offended when I see people doing that, I have no idea why you do. Such acts are not illegal in public places in the UK either, not even in front of children. As long as there is no indecent exposure, you cannot police other people if they are talking about sex or consensually groping each other in public. Nothing about such things is indecent.
Perhaps it is the fact that time and time again I've rebuffed your arguments so thoroughly you've been losing ground throughout the entire thread, unable to adequately contest anything I've said?
Do you find being called out for your childish behaviour offensive?
Do you still remain as unable to grasp why people may want to talk or not talk about different things, and hold to the notion that you should be able to say and do whatever you like, regardless of the fact that pretty much nobody anywhere has leapt to your defence?
I'm thinking yes, which was exactly why you and I began this discussion, whilst I am apathetic to you and your urge to post nonsense, you were claiming others who were unhappy with your nonsense were being immature. You can claim that you comprehend people fine, except you've just said that you don't understand why "I" feel offended, at the beginning of the conversation, you've said that people are immature for not wanting to talk about sexuality, and have generally contradicted yourself at every turn.
I can't imagine why you would think I would find one form of sexuality any more or less acceptable than any other, and whilst I consider Gay Pride about as stupid as White Pride, Black Pride, Straight Pride, or pride about any other aspect of people's personalities over which they have no control, I would still consider a parade to be a more appropriate social context for a wider range of actions than a restaurant or randomly in the street.
Now, if you seek to surround yourself only with such behaviour and such environments, I can understand why you might consider it universally acceptable, however this is not the case in business settings, family settings, restaurants you have to wear a tie to attend, or the vast majority of social interactions. One does not have to feel personally offended to consider behaviour inappropriate, nor does it have to be offensive to be childish.
And no, people do not have a right to not be offended, it is not illegal to offend someone. It is, however, and I feel I'm repeating myself here, childish and tacky to do things that offend others just for the sake of being offensive, as you've said yourself that you enjoy doing. For all your talk about immaturity, you're effectively the little boy who chases little girls with dead frogs and claims enlightenment by doing so.
I am quite serious here, you are arguing from the position of a child, to operate outside of the restraints of society, to deny the consequences your actions have on others and to do as you please without consequence. I am arguing from the position of an adult, to regulate your behaviour to account for the sensibilities those around you. If you wish to keep arguing from that position and defend it as being mature, you are welcome to, but you will continue to do so at an acute disadvantage of being wrong.
@Shandyr: Whilst I do note that he has fabricated several things I've either not said, or explicitly said something different, I have assumed no further than what Mungri has stated clearly enough for himself, I certainly have no need for more than he has provided.
I believe I have made my apathy abundantly clear elsewhere, however I can say definitively that he is neither capable of offending me, nor making me hold any particular animosity towards him.
As to your question, I would consider him retracting his initial stance which caused me to call him out on his behaviour a satisfactory outcome of this discussion. Other than that, I am more than happy to continue pointing out where he is being unreasonable until he stops for even a moment to consider that he is required to limit his behaviour when in civilised society and stops arguing with that fact.
Considering he has begun going in circles, I may be able to achieve this by simply quoting earlier posts on the matter.
I agree with the suggestion that you two should go to pm if you want to keep fighting. Which one of you will be the better man (or woman), take the high road, and make peace first?
He would come up to us and demand that we stop calling him hot, or not hot. We would laugh and ignore him, but he would carry on being offended and further push into a fight. Security would be alerted by either me or my friend (or both), and he would be removed from the bar while we carried on playing our harmless game.
Is that on topic? Now lets wait and see how people respond to it with insults about me being immature or things about my mother.
I blame Mass Effect for these romance and sexuality threads. Before ME romances weren't that big a deal. They were there but they were hardly prominent. Now they are supposedly as important as the story and plot. I still remember how Anders came on to me in DA II, and out of the fricken blue no less. Cue WTF from me - he's my best friend, I didnt flirt with him. Was that necessary?
And jesus christ this thread IS a fucking trainwreck. Just look at yourselves. I summon the power of @Tanthalas to close this; its just out of hand.
TL;DR: Newsflash: romances are not important. Sexuality is not important. This is a GAME.