Most of the discussion above seems to assume that all dual-wielding attacks will hit. That's a reasonable assumption for a fighter in late BG2, but not in BG1. For classes able to achieve weapon mastery I think that there's an advantage both offensively and defensively to doing that before going for dual wield - so classes like kensais and berserkers may end up not dual wielding in BG1. Whether that's the best decision though depends on your game style - I do sometimes choose 2 points in dual wielding from the starting selection at the cost of having no proficiency in a ranged weapon.
Well, if we’re talking kensai and berserkers, you’re probably not going to bother with ranged weapons anyway.
With a berserker, you might be better off with a shield, but a kensai can’t wear one, so you’re definitely better off with two weapons.
@Grond0 I am pretty sure that 2 points per category is the maximum at level 1. So unless you wish to diversify your weapon arsenal, you are bound to put the the other two points into fighting styles.
Nothing beats Bel in LoB mode like Matyr's Morningstar and Single-Weapon Style, it's actually the only way of many classes beating Bel. I wish there was more weapons in BG2 that took a advantage of 19/20 crits, because there's non. Actually it would be good if Martyr was transferable in BG2, it would make third fighting style viable, because it's so good vs. big hp opponents.
Perhaps I didn't stress the point enough that what's best depends on the way you play the game and which game you're playing. I play solo most of the time and play far more in BG1 than BG2, so my preferences reflect that. Bearing that in mind, in answer to some points above: - ranged combat is necessary for many encounters, even for kensais and berserkers. As noted I do sometimes still opt to use non-proficient missile weapons in those instances, but I tend to put at least one pip in a ranged weapon. In BG1 shields are not that great. A pip in single weapon proficiency provides some basic protection, with the additional benefit to critical hits as well. - for a solo character one obvious option at level one would be to go for specialization in both a ranged weapon and a melee weapon. For a fighter that can progress beyond specialization I might still do that, but more typically I would put one of the points from the ranged weapon into single weapon proficiency.
Just to expand on my earlier point about the mathematical benefits of single vs dual weapons, I'll make some numbers up (in the hope as I write this that they support my claim ).
Let's imagine a solo 8th level fighter, i.e. he's already done a lot of work in BG1. He has strength 18(91) and uses a +2 long sword as his main weapon and a +1 long sword if dual-wielding. If aiming to single-wield, proficiencies would be **** in long swords, * in single weapon, * in a missile weapon. If aiming to dual wield, proficiencies would be ** in long swords, *** in dual-wielding, * in a missile weapon.
Let's say he's attacking an opponent with AC0.
THAC0 basic 13, strength +2, sword +2 = 9.
Single wielding he gets a proficiency bonus to hit of +3 Therefore he will hit with a roll of 6, i.e. 75% of the time (including 2 critical hits) With APR (assuming non hasted) of 2 (and assuming he always rolls a 5 for basic damage) this means damage would be: 5 + strength 5 + proficiency 4 + sword 2 = (16 x 2 x 0.75) + (16 x 2 x 0.1) = 27.2
Dual wielding he gets a proficiency bonus of +1 with main hand and -1 with off hand. Main hand he will hit with a 8, i.e. 65% of the time (including 1 critical hit). Damage would be: 5 + strength 5 + proficiency 2 + sword 2 = (14 x 2 x 0.65) + (14 x 2 x 0.05) = 19.6 Off hand he will hit with a 10, i.e. 55% of the time. Damage would be: 5 + strength 5 + proficiency 2 + sword 1 = (13 x 0.55) + (13 x 0.05) = 7.8
So in this example single wielding does 27.2 compared to dual wielding 27.4. This though ignores the fact that the single wielded weapon strikes on average significantly earlier in the round, which gives a major combat advantage. In addition the single wielded weapon has a better AC so will take less damage in return through that route (and would also have the option to equip a +1 shield to trade off reduced offensive damage for a further reduction in defensive damage).
That bit of maths reinforces my belief that, for me, single weapon is the preferred route (I deliberately didn't refer to Martyr's Morningstar as that's of greatest interest to LoB players - but I see @histamiini couldn't resist ). The advantage of single weapon wielding would be greater at lower levels (when it's harder to hit things - and also at slightly higher levels due to the APR and weapon speed benefit of grand mastery), when using haste, or against tougher opponents (where marginal advantages count the most). I agree that at much higher levels, particularly when using improved haste, the advantage switches to dual-wielding - but by then a fighter would have had the chance to achieve grand mastery first and have plenty of time to build up their dual-wielding skill anyway.
The people who disagree with you are disagreeing on your previous mention of kensai and berserker, not the generic fighter.
Also, putting 3 pips into dualwielding in BG1 is overkill, unless you have nothing else that you might want to improve. But since the third point in long swords comes with some nice bonuses, methinks you are trying to fudge the numbers in your favor.
Lastly, I don't normally play solo games, so I don't know how much of a game changer the difference in projectile velocity and reach are. But if I were to play a berserker, I would, just like with a kensai, go for throwing axes, and make that my main weapon proficiency.
@Humanoid_Taifun playing solo makes a big difference. For instance: - you can't afford to die, so the relative importance of defence vs attack changes substantially from a party situation. - axes have a shorter range and a slower speed as missile weapons than other options. That makes them much more difficult to use while kiting opponents and not at all the obvious option you suggest for a solo berserker even before considering things like encumbrance and stack sizes. - when you're the only character tactical uses of weapons are more important. For instance it's handy to be able to reliably hit things with dispelling arrows.
I'm not trying to say that dual-wielding for a berserker or any other class is a bad option. I'm just responding to comments made in the thread that mainly concentrate on high level characters. Like pretty much everything else about the Baldur's Gate games the best strategies depend on lots of things - like character levels, difficulty setting, mods, your play style, party composition, whether you reload etc.
Axes have a weight of 1 in the EE. The reduced weight and increased stack size vs vanilla certainly make them more appealing to use, but the weight is still significant in EE even for a character with exceptional strength. The fact that, unlike with missile weapons, when a stack of throwing weapons is exhausted your character automatically goes into melee is also a danger that needs watching out for if you're playing solo.
Axes have a weight of 1 in the EE. The reduced weight and increased stack size vs vanilla certainly make them more appealing to use, but the weight is still significant in EE even for a character with exceptional strength. The fact that, unlike with missile weapons, when a stack of throwing weapons is exhausted your character automatically goes into melee is also a danger that needs watching out for if you're playing solo.
IMHO, Dagger is the best solo weapon. Dagger of Venom is amazing and it gives you a missile weapon that fires twice a round with STR bonus on the damage.
I agree daggers are a perfectly good choice (the addition of strength damage in the EE makes them work better than axes for most characters). There are still some drawbacks for a solo character though, in particular: - there's no +3 dagger to hit Belhifet with if you're playing SoD (though a fighter/mage could use enchanted weapon to overcome that). - daggers have a range of 0 meaning it's significantly more difficult to get in a melee attack and withdraw before an enemy can retaliate than if you use a longer weapon.
What the game really needs is some good shields to offset the need to dual wield.
Example...
(*) Defender of Easthaven (as a shield) +20% resistance to slashing, piercing, and crushing damage +3 AC +1 APR
I mean, there you go. You now have a shield for adventuring that just about anyone would be happy to use.
(*) Allow it to be upgraded
It's already a +2 shield. But I'd say let it be upgraded in ToB. Make it a +3 shield, that gives +20% resistance to elemental and magic damage, as well as +1 to all saves. That way, in the end game, it becomes that capable of competing with the amazing +5/+6 weapons that Charname could be using.
As it...I really love the idea of a dwarven defender with a hammer in one hand and a shield in the other. But the powergamer in me hates the idea of gimping the character. Shields are almost never worth it by BG2.
There are some cool shields as a part of Neera's questline, but it kind of sucks to have them tied to one companion like that.
Like the Shield of Fyrus Khal +2 : AC +3, +10% fire, cold, acid, electric resist, all allies within 5 ft gain +5% magic resistance. Cast spell turning once per day
Shields in SoA are pretty cool. I dont do a run without 1) the reflection shield (great for early ambushes, the slavers quest and a solar in ToB, 2) the shield of harmony - Yuanti mages dont know what hit them, 3) shield of balduran...
But I never take points in short and shield style. With the reflection shield you want people to hit you (you can get rid of the armor if you like) - not the other way around.
The pips/points in sword and shield style are pretty much wasted in SoA, whilst having some merit in Bg1. So I end up taking pips/points in 2 weapon fighting - and wear a shield when it makes sense.
If the pips/point gave damage reduction (perhaps just 10% piercing and 5% slashing) when wearing a shield, I would be all for that (You would have to nerf hardiness and defensive stance of course...). But as the profiency system is now, the sword and shield style doesnt make sense - whilst I still find usage for the above mentioned shields.
Dual-Wielding is only worth it if you have Hull's Longsword in your main hand and Perdue's shortsword in your offhand. Lethal combination in Throne of Bhaal.
Kind of a stupid question (especially from someone who played the game forever yet - apparently - never payed attention) but what if you take both Single and Dual specialization in the same time? After all, description of a Single weapon specialization does not forbid you from having a weapon in another arm, the only restriction is "one hand weapon".
My ignorance knows no bounds! Probably I knew it at some point and never thought again. A roll of 98 WS made me re-read everything and absence of that very phrase in Single Weapon specialization (it talks about shields only) made me curious if I was missing great opportunity all these times
I think it is bugged or something, you get only 1 weapon effect, but animation show you hit with both
Like Crom F and Flail of ages
I never get the acid, cold, fire and slow....only Crom +5 lightning damage
if I swap the hands who hold them I do get the acid, cold, fire and slow effects, but no lightning from Crom or any help vs golems
@Belnick Only 1 attack per round is used with the offhand. Animations don't matter. So you might just be seeing the main hand attacks.
yea, but would not the damage be seen in the log? as I said if I hold crom in main hand and flail in off hand I never get the effect damage from the flail and I mean never.....and when I changed them so flail is in main hand and crom is in off hand I do get the poison, fire etc....but no effect from Crom, no golem needed to save for death, got no lightning damage etc.... when I change back ii is back to the other way, effect from 1 of the weapons only
And you're certain you're hitting with the offhand?
No, that is what im saying
It is like main hand swing twice instead of using off hand....
If I place in off hand only it works, but it seems when i use both hands only the main weapon counts, like it mirror main weapon to off hand or something?
I did experiment with my cleric/mage, used shadow keeper, gave my self 100 time stop scrolls and fought 3 Adamantite Golems....
1, used crom in main hand and flail of ages(foa) in off hand....
I did 0 hits with flail of ages, only crom
2, used foa in main hand and crom in off hand, I did 0 hits with crom.....
3, tried main hand only and off hand only with both weapons, both do hit
during this test I also set all proficiencies needed to 7 and thaco to 2
when I played this xx year ago i remember hitting heavy with crom + lightning and then the flail and all the heads did damage after, but I dont get that now, maybe they removed it from the new versions(all remakes are always worse :P)
@Belnick "It is like main hand swing twice instead of using off hand...."
I mean, it is? The offhand will ALWAYS just be a single attack a round. How many attacks is your character getting a round, and can you see/show the to hit rolls?
"(all remakes are always worse :P)"
Yeah, lets see you say that after playing unmodded vanilla BG1.
@Belnick "It is like main hand swing twice instead of using off hand...."
I mean, it is? The offhand will ALWAYS just be a single attack a round. How many attacks is your character getting a round, and can you see/show the to hit rolls?
"(all remakes are always worse :P)"
Yeah, lets see you say that after playing unmodded vanilla BG1.
played it 60+ times before, had no problem, but disliked the part where you start with 4hp as mage sop prefer to play bg2 only
not tried it on win10
but never had so many problem with bg2 that i had since i got the new versions, the problem in this thread, some thing that dont trigger, random crashes when clicking on rest or save and the last annoying bug, before the final battle in ToB you cant rest, you cant rest at Balthazar and and you cant rest in pocket dimension as it will crash, so you have to do the last fight unrested and once you beat last boss the Solar never comes, just a black screen with a hourglass and if you click anywhere you get program not responding lol
maybe it is just best that I hook up my old win 95 pc and install the original on it and play it with a modern monitor instead
Comments
With a berserker, you might be better off with a shield, but a kensai can’t wear one, so you’re definitely better off with two weapons.
I am pretty sure that 2 points per category is the maximum at level 1. So unless you wish to diversify your weapon arsenal, you are bound to put the the other two points into fighting styles.
- ranged combat is necessary for many encounters, even for kensais and berserkers. As noted I do sometimes still opt to use non-proficient missile weapons in those instances, but I tend to put at least one pip in a ranged weapon. In BG1 shields are not that great. A pip in single weapon proficiency provides some basic protection, with the additional benefit to critical hits as well.
- for a solo character one obvious option at level one would be to go for specialization in both a ranged weapon and a melee weapon. For a fighter that can progress beyond specialization I might still do that, but more typically I would put one of the points from the ranged weapon into single weapon proficiency.
Just to expand on my earlier point about the mathematical benefits of single vs dual weapons, I'll make some numbers up (in the hope as I write this that they support my claim
Let's imagine a solo 8th level fighter, i.e. he's already done a lot of work in BG1. He has strength 18(91) and uses a +2 long sword as his main weapon and a +1 long sword if dual-wielding. If aiming to single-wield, proficiencies would be **** in long swords, * in single weapon, * in a missile weapon. If aiming to dual wield, proficiencies would be ** in long swords, *** in dual-wielding, * in a missile weapon.
Let's say he's attacking an opponent with AC0.
THAC0 basic 13, strength +2, sword +2 = 9.
Single wielding he gets a proficiency bonus to hit of +3
Therefore he will hit with a roll of 6, i.e. 75% of the time (including 2 critical hits)
With APR (assuming non hasted) of 2 (and assuming he always rolls a 5 for basic damage) this means damage would be:
5 + strength 5 + proficiency 4 + sword 2 = (16 x 2 x 0.75) + (16 x 2 x 0.1) = 27.2
Dual wielding he gets a proficiency bonus of +1 with main hand and -1 with off hand.
Main hand he will hit with a 8, i.e. 65% of the time (including 1 critical hit).
Damage would be:
5 + strength 5 + proficiency 2 + sword 2 = (14 x 2 x 0.65) + (14 x 2 x 0.05) = 19.6
Off hand he will hit with a 10, i.e. 55% of the time.
Damage would be:
5 + strength 5 + proficiency 2 + sword 1 = (13 x 0.55) + (13 x 0.05) = 7.8
So in this example single wielding does 27.2 compared to dual wielding 27.4. This though ignores the fact that the single wielded weapon strikes on average significantly earlier in the round, which gives a major combat advantage. In addition the single wielded weapon has a better AC so will take less damage in return through that route (and would also have the option to equip a +1 shield to trade off reduced offensive damage for a further reduction in defensive damage).
That bit of maths reinforces my belief that, for me, single weapon is the preferred route (I deliberately didn't refer to Martyr's Morningstar as that's of greatest interest to LoB players - but I see @histamiini couldn't resist
Also, putting 3 pips into dualwielding in BG1 is overkill, unless you have nothing else that you might want to improve. But since the third point in long swords comes with some nice bonuses, methinks you are trying to fudge the numbers in your favor.
Lastly, I don't normally play solo games, so I don't know how much of a game changer the difference in projectile velocity and reach are. But if I were to play a berserker, I would, just like with a kensai, go for throwing axes, and make that my main weapon proficiency.
- you can't afford to die, so the relative importance of defence vs attack changes substantially from a party situation.
- axes have a shorter range and a slower speed as missile weapons than other options. That makes them much more difficult to use while kiting opponents and not at all the obvious option you suggest for a solo berserker even before considering things like encumbrance and stack sizes.
- when you're the only character tactical uses of weapons are more important. For instance it's handy to be able to reliably hit things with dispelling arrows.
I'm not trying to say that dual-wielding for a berserker or any other class is a bad option. I'm just responding to comments made in the thread that mainly concentrate on high level characters. Like pretty much everything else about the Baldur's Gate games the best strategies depend on lots of things - like character levels, difficulty setting, mods, your play style, party composition, whether you reload etc.
- there's no +3 dagger to hit Belhifet with if you're playing SoD (though a fighter/mage could use enchanted weapon to overcome that).
- daggers have a range of 0 meaning it's significantly more difficult to get in a melee attack and withdraw before an enemy can retaliate than if you use a longer weapon.
Example...
(*) Defender of Easthaven (as a shield)
+20% resistance to slashing, piercing, and crushing damage
+3 AC
+1 APR
I mean, there you go. You now have a shield for adventuring that just about anyone would be happy to use.
(*) Allow it to be upgraded
It's already a +2 shield. But I'd say let it be upgraded in ToB. Make it a +3 shield, that gives +20% resistance to elemental and magic damage, as well as +1 to all saves. That way, in the end game, it becomes that capable of competing with the amazing +5/+6 weapons that Charname could be using.
As it...I really love the idea of a dwarven defender with a hammer in one hand and a shield in the other. But the powergamer in me hates the idea of gimping the character. Shields are almost never worth it by BG2.
There are some cool shields as a part of Neera's questline, but it kind of sucks to have them tied to one companion like that.
Like the Shield of Fyrus Khal +2 : AC +3, +10% fire, cold, acid, electric resist, all allies within 5 ft gain +5% magic resistance. Cast spell turning once per day
1) the reflection shield (great for early ambushes, the slavers quest and a solar in ToB,
2) the shield of harmony - Yuanti mages dont know what hit them,
3) shield of balduran...
But I never take points in short and shield style. With the reflection shield you want people to hit you (you can get rid of the armor if you like) - not the other way around.
The pips/points in sword and shield style are pretty much wasted in SoA, whilst having some merit in Bg1. So I end up taking pips/points in 2 weapon fighting - and wear a shield when it makes sense.
If the pips/point gave damage reduction (perhaps just 10% piercing and 5% slashing) when wearing a shield, I would be all for that (You would have to nerf hardiness and defensive stance of course...). But as the profiency system is now, the sword and shield style doesnt make sense - whilst I still find usage for the above mentioned shields.
Ps: @Grum ‘s idea for a DoE remake makes sense. @gattberserk did something lile that in an item mod for SoD - and it looked like a pretty good idea. The post from @gattberserk : https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/47005/bgee-sod-item-replacement-fun-pack-completed-w-weidu
Like Crom F and Flail of ages
I never get the acid, cold, fire and slow....only Crom +5 lightning damage
if I swap the hands who hold them I do get the acid, cold, fire and slow effects, but no lightning from Crom or any help vs golems
yea, but would not the damage be seen in the log? as I said if I hold crom in main hand and flail in off hand I never get the effect damage from the flail and I mean never.....and when I changed them so flail is in main hand and crom is in off hand I do get the poison, fire etc....but no effect from Crom, no golem needed to save for death, got no lightning damage etc.... when I change back ii is back to the other way, effect from 1 of the weapons only
No, that is what im saying
It is like main hand swing twice instead of using off hand....
If I place in off hand only it works, but it seems when i use both hands only the main weapon counts, like it mirror main weapon to off hand or something?
I did experiment with my cleric/mage, used shadow keeper, gave my self 100 time stop scrolls and fought 3 Adamantite Golems....
1, used crom in main hand and flail of ages(foa) in off hand....
I did 0 hits with flail of ages, only crom
2, used foa in main hand and crom in off hand, I did 0 hits with crom.....
3, tried main hand only and off hand only with both weapons, both do hit
during this test I also set all proficiencies needed to 7 and thaco to 2
when I played this xx year ago i remember hitting heavy with crom + lightning and then the flail and all the heads did damage after, but I dont get that now, maybe they removed it from the new versions(all remakes are always worse :P)
I mean, it is? The offhand will ALWAYS just be a single attack a round. How many attacks is your character getting a round, and can you see/show the to hit rolls?
"(all remakes are always worse :P)"
Yeah, lets see you say that after playing unmodded vanilla BG1.
played it 60+ times before, had no problem, but disliked the part where you start with 4hp as mage sop prefer to play bg2 only
not tried it on win10
but never had so many problem with bg2 that i had since i got the new versions, the problem in this thread, some thing that dont trigger, random crashes when clicking on rest or save and the last annoying bug, before the final battle in ToB you cant rest, you cant rest at Balthazar and and you cant rest in pocket dimension as it will crash, so you have to do the last fight unrested and once you beat last boss the Solar never comes, just a black screen with a hourglass and if you click anywhere you get program not responding lol
maybe it is just best that I hook up my old win 95 pc and install the original on it and play it with a modern monitor instead