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When is dual wielding worth it?

I've read that dual wielding is the best way to go, and I've read that it isn't as good when you start getting whirlwind and greater whirlwind attacks.

Which is correct?

What characters does dual wielding work best on? What types of characters is it the worst on?

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Comments

  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 265
    What seems like massive penalties to thac0 for lack of dual weilding pips eventually becomes almost entirely negligible by late SoA. I would give dual wielding to any kensai or fighter I make if I were going to dual them at level 9 like I often do, but I wouldn't worry so much about giving the archer a third point in it, or any at all to a paladin since the game throws plenty of good shield and two handed weapons at me consistently.

  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,473
    edited September 2017
    I like to dual a fighter into a mage early on just so that they can dual wield effectively. A hasted mage with all his buffs up as well as both fireshields and wielding Celestial Fury and Kundane is a sight to behold.
    Edit: The same also works nicely for an assassin dualed to mage.

  • AltairAltair Member Posts: 127
    After trying countless dual wielding characters with various weapons, I find that the most powerful one is a Half-Orc Warrior-Thief wielding the two scimitars of Drizzt in BG1, and then later Celestial Fury + Belm in BG2.

  • karl_maulderkarl_maulder Member Posts: 133
    edited September 2017
    Dual wielding is great on warriors and rogues (blades and swashbucklers). But what makes dual wielding powerful is 1. multiple attacks, and 2. Improved Haste.

    A Warrior gets an additional attack at level 13 (0,5 at level 7, and an extra 0,5 at level 13), and an extra half attack for specializing (a whole extra attack for Fighters with grand mastery). When using an extra weapon you get an additional attack, for a total of 3,5 - 4 attacks per round, depending on your class. With Improved Haste, you get twice the amount of attacks, meaning 7-8 attacks per round. In ToB you can find a pair of gloves that adds 0,5 attack (+1 under the effect of IH). Like @semiticgod pointed out, some weapons can add additional effects, like 25 strength, +1 attack (+2 when IH). So it's very easy to attain 10 attacks per round on any warrior. As for the style itself, 2 points is required, 3 is a waste. So in SoA dual wielding is clearly the superior style.

    At higher levels like you said, a twohand weapon wielder can get GWW that gives the same effect as a IH dual wielder. The pros of dual wielding however, is that the effect of IH is longer: 3 rounds, +1 round every caster level, meaning you don't have to reuse it as often as GWW, and being able to work simultaneously with other HLA abilities (critical strike is good). Keep in mind that some enemies can dispel IH (which you don't have to worry about when using GWW). If hasted (improved) you can use HLA's like critical strike or greater deathblow, the former is the better because you will always "hit" an enemy, even though some monster are immune to critical hits.

    But yeah, in SoA dual wielding with IH is the better option without a question, and should be exploited if you're powergaming. In ToB however, any twohand wielder with GWW can compete, and with some of the weapons like Carsomyr +6, Ravager +6 and Gram the sword of grief, you're gonna be a force to be reckon with.




    KloroxAerakar
  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 436
    "Shadow Thief Dagger (+1 attack per round, pre-EE only)"?!! Is there any possibility to import/EEKeeper in this one?

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,093
    @Astafas: Nope; the item file itself got changed. But you can just use Near Infinity to restore the APR bonus. Copy the passive effect from Belm, paste it onto the STD, and it will give you an extra attack per round, just like in the original game.

    (If you want it to be perfectly accurate to the original, tweak the parameters from 1 and 0, to 2 and 1. That way, it sets APR to 2 instead of just adding to it by 1. The only difference is that it should allow Project Image clones to attack, and will have no effect if you combine it with a throwing dagger in the main hand.)

    Astafas
  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 436
    @semiticgod Thanks for a very good suggestion! Is the dagger present ingame at all? I have never seen it, IIRC.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,295
    edited September 2017
    Klorox said:

    I've read that dual wielding is the best way to go, and I've read that it isn't as good when you start getting whirlwind and greater whirlwind attacks.

    Which is correct?

    two weapon style is the strongest style in terms of raw damage and greater whirlwind doesn't affect this. the most appropriate hla when dual wielding is critical strike. you can have the benefits of greater whirlwind with a spell (improved haste). a less recognized advantage of using single-handed weapons is the greater opportunity to deal blunt damage which is overall pretty useful.

    however, users of two handed weapons with greater whirlwind come close and their 10apr can't be dispelled and they can rely on special abilities of some 2h weapons which are pretty rad. flail of ages is in the same category because improved haste doesn't work with it.

    flail of ages +5 is probably the best weapon, as it (foa) has a dozen advantages, despite the one disadvantage, which is requiring you to use GWW instead of Critical Strike. having another weapon in the off-hand with it might be unnecessary. however since you want to put something in that slot and shields aren't very good most of the time, it's best to put another weapon there.

    (edit: phrasing)

    Post edited by bob_veng on
    Aerakar
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780

    @Astafas: To get the Shadow Thief Dagger, you have to side with Bodhi instead of Aran Linvail (impossible, incidentally, if you're a single-classed thief). For the second assignment, you have to pick the "unseemly task," at which point Bodhi assigns you to assassinate somebody and give you the Shadow Thief Dagger.

    You're supposed to put it in a pool in a house after you kill the target, but if you refuse to do so, you can keep the dagger and she'll give you the other assignment instead.

    What’s the Shadow Thief Dagger do?

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,093
    @Klorox: In the vanilla game, before EE, the Shadow Thief Dagger granted an undocumented 2 attacks per round, making it a largely unknown speed weapon. You could use it to boost your APR by using it as an off-hand weapon, since all APR bonuses apply to the main hand weapon instead of the off hand (except for Improved Haste, which doubles both main hand and off-hand APR).

    For some reason that APR bonus was removed in EE, making it useless.

    KloroxStummvonBordwehrbooinyoureyes
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,553
    When is dual-wielding worth it? When it's Drizzt of course!

    ThacoBellDev6booinyoureyes
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 884
    The Rule of cool clearly states that dual wielding is always worth it.

    Dev6ThacoBellbooinyoureyes
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 709
    When isn't dual wielding worth it?!

    ThacoBellbooinyoureyes
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,070

    Dev6 said:

    When isn't dual wielding worth it?!

    When you can GWW Carsomyr +6?

    You miss out on potential resistences/immunities by not having an offhand. Also, are you ALWAYS going to have GWW active? Dual wield grants more apr by default without buffs.

    Dev6
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 884
    Now if we only could dual wield with blade and buckler *sigh*

    booinyoureyes
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,242
    edited February 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    You miss out on potential resistences/immunities by not having an offhand. Also, are you ALWAYS going to have GWW active? Dual wield grants more apr by default without buffs.

    Carsomyr has great abilities too, on hit Dispel and 50 MR. What about Ravager +6, killing 3 creatures (non immune to kill) on average with two Gww's? I think it's always situational, neither is best for everything.

    semiticgodtbone1ThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,093
    What about a nonmagical quarterstaff? Carsomyr and the Ravager can't do anything to a Magic Golem! :wink:

    histamiiniThacoBellRaduzielbooinyoureyes
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,553
    edited February 2018

    What about a nonmagical quarterstaff? Carsomyr and the Ravager can't do anything to a Magic Golem! :wink:

    You could do the same thing while dual-wielding clubs. The vision of some dude beating the crap out of a golem with two sticks is just hilarious to me!

    Edit: Would that make it a Magic 'Drum' Golem?

    ThacoBellsemiticgodAerakarbooinyoureyes
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 884
    A drummer dual-wielding clubs and using the power of rock 'n' roll to defeat their foes? I am so making this trilogy run.

    Balrog99ThacoBellAerakarbooinyoureyes
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,553
    JoenSo said:

    A drummer dual-wielding clubs and using the power of rock 'n' roll to defeat their foes? I am so making this trilogy run.

    Sounds like a Spongebob episode!

    JoenSoAerakar
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 884
    Balrog99 said:

    JoenSo said:

    A drummer dual-wielding clubs and using the power of rock 'n' roll to defeat their foes? I am so making this trilogy run.

    Sounds like a Spongebob episode!
    Or an episode of freakin' awesome!

    Balrog99
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,990
    edited February 2018

    @Klorox: In the vanilla game, before EE, the Shadow Thief Dagger granted an undocumented 2 attacks per round, making it a largely unknown speed weapon. You could use it to boost your APR by using it as an off-hand weapon, since all APR bonuses apply to the main hand weapon instead of the off hand (except for Improved Haste, which doubles both main hand and off-hand APR).

    For some reason that APR bonus was removed in EE, making it useless.

    I think it sets APR to 2, not increments it (unlike the other speed weapons). Also it didn't actually document the speed benefit and never labeled it as a magical weapon.

    It may be that someone at bioware just copied a throwing dagger and then modified it to be used as a plot weapon (making it so that it could no longer be used as a throwing weapon). Then forgot to remove the number of attacks bonuses. Throwing daggers normally set attacks to 2 instead of giving an increment bonus.

    Post edited by elminster on
    semiticgodAerakar
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,041
    At higher levels, as a general rule, I'd say dualwielding is always worth it for anybody who wants to accomplish something in melee and who does not have access to fighter HLAs (dualclassers, bards, thieves and clerics).
    For character with access to fighter HLAs (GWW) it's more of a situational thing. The greatest pure damage output can be achieved with GWW and whichever weapon has the best damage. But pure damage is not always king. People praise Carsomyr a lot, but from a pure damage perspective, it's not very impressive. 1D12+5/6. There are plenty of weapons that can do more.
    On the other hand you have weapons like Crom Faeyr that people confuse for an off-hand weapon because of its passive effect, even though its damage is pretty high and even partially elemental. When you are mopping up small fries, Crom Faeyr is better than Carsomyr, and (since you are not wasting your HLAs on clean up), a Crom Faeyr/Defender of Easthaven combination is much better than Carsomyr.
    But in harder fights Carsomyr typically trumps Crom Faeyr. If your strength is lacking, you can just chuck a potion. That's what potions are for. And better to dispel the enemy's protections & protect yourself from enemy spells than to deal a few more points of damage.

    At BG1 levels, your main weapon should be ranged, which means that only rangers, kensai and berserkers would have enough proficiency points to make dualwielding viable. But they definitely should go for it.

    AerakarAstafasMirandel
  • marc5477marc5477 Member Posts: 19
    In the BG games, dual wield is worth it the minute you get 2 proficiency points into dual wield style. Its insanely good because strength bonus to damage is the same for single handed weapon as two handed weapons (which makes no sense) plus you get the benefit of an extra item which comes with more bonuses.

    Frankly, I think this was a design error (not sure if its a DnD design error or game design error). Single handed weapons should receive 1/2 the damage bonus from strength or two handed weapons should get double the bonus. 1/2 for single handed would probably work better game design wise and even then, dual wield still wins more times than not except for the case of vorpal weapons + whirlwind which is just cheese... then again, so is any single handed weapon that grants +1 APR... thats not just cheese, thats chucky cheese.

    semiticgodsubtledoctor
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,112
    It's only +1 attack though. Doesn't really make sense for Two Handed Weapons to get twice the strength bonus when it's only the difference between 3 and 4 attacks per round.

    Yes, you can boost it further with certain weapons, but we can't base the balance around the presupposition that the player is gonna be using those weapons.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,751
    Most of the discussion above seems to assume that all dual-wielding attacks will hit. That's a reasonable assumption for a fighter in late BG2, but not in BG1. For classes able to achieve weapon mastery I think that there's an advantage both offensively and defensively to doing that before going for dual wield - so classes like kensais and berserkers may end up not dual wielding in BG1. Whether that's the best decision though depends on your game style - I do sometimes choose 2 points in dual wielding from the starting selection at the cost of having no proficiency in a ranged weapon.

    semiticgodgorgonzola
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