Yeah...um...help. Best Party for Legacy of Bhaal+Sword Coast Stratagems.
Stupid_Puns
Member Posts: 66
Alright internet, I've once again called upon your mystical and magical (and sometimes inappropriate) skills because of my own indecisiveness. I'm currently playing BGEE (With Siege of Dragonspear) and I've come to a realization, I have no idea what party is best. As such, all your wonderful opinions would be nice. What is the best party one can have?
Arguably, it's Dorn, Kaigan, Jaheria, Viconia, main-character a fighter-mage or thief of some variety, and dual-class Imoen or Edwin. Get Kaigan the Gauntlets of Dexterity and the Big Fisted Belt, Jaheria the Hands of Takkok, and your all set. But are there better ones? Xzar dual-classed to Cleric? Coran or Kivan as an archer? I understand that a lot of people don't play LOB+SCS, but for you dedicated few, I would like to know. Tell you what, even if you don't play LOB+SCS, the opinion of Best Party would still be greatly appreciated.
Last but not least here, I'm currently playing through the game as a Kensai proficient in Katanas and two-weapon style, original, I know. But Kensai-Mage with Celestial Fury is still my favorite build throughout the series, so I couldn't resist. Anywho, being what I am, I'm pretty much useless for 75% of all the games, and over-powered throughout the rest. As such, I need second-opinion doctor, on what the best party for a kensai is in BGEE and SOD. I was thinking Dorn, Kaigan, Jaheria, Viconia, and Baeloth. But then I played with that and it sucks not having a thief, so I got Coran instead of Viconia.
SO! Beautiful people of the web. your wisdom is need for a guy who's just trying to beat Baldur's Gate without crying from defeat every fifteen minutes. What is the best party? And what is the best party for one in my situation? Thank you.
P.S: Who really shot JFK?
Arguably, it's Dorn, Kaigan, Jaheria, Viconia, main-character a fighter-mage or thief of some variety, and dual-class Imoen or Edwin. Get Kaigan the Gauntlets of Dexterity and the Big Fisted Belt, Jaheria the Hands of Takkok, and your all set. But are there better ones? Xzar dual-classed to Cleric? Coran or Kivan as an archer? I understand that a lot of people don't play LOB+SCS, but for you dedicated few, I would like to know. Tell you what, even if you don't play LOB+SCS, the opinion of Best Party would still be greatly appreciated.
Last but not least here, I'm currently playing through the game as a Kensai proficient in Katanas and two-weapon style, original, I know. But Kensai-Mage with Celestial Fury is still my favorite build throughout the series, so I couldn't resist. Anywho, being what I am, I'm pretty much useless for 75% of all the games, and over-powered throughout the rest. As such, I need second-opinion doctor, on what the best party for a kensai is in BGEE and SOD. I was thinking Dorn, Kaigan, Jaheria, Viconia, and Baeloth. But then I played with that and it sucks not having a thief, so I got Coran instead of Viconia.
SO! Beautiful people of the web. your wisdom is need for a guy who's just trying to beat Baldur's Gate without crying from defeat every fifteen minutes. What is the best party? And what is the best party for one in my situation? Thank you.
P.S: Who really shot JFK?
2
Comments
Your party is the right party if you know what you are doing with it (and you need to know if you are playing that mode) - there is no definitive party in this game.
Recently @Enuhal has completed BG:EE in a no-reload LoB run (without SCS), you can read about it in https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/40393/maybe-this-time-no-reload-thread-habib-khalif-achmed-allafifs-thrown-scimitar-build, or just check @Enuhal 's latest comments.
Judging by his run, I think a Totemic druid is very helpful in such a run, because of spirit animals. A fighter/mage (fighter/illusionist) for tanking, because of Mirror Images and other buffs not to get hit. Enuhal also went with an archer and a kensai for big damage. A wizard is also needed.
That run inspired me for a similar run (but with SCS), and I've chosen the party of
- a sorcerer
- a fighter/thief
- a fighter/illusionist
- an archer
- a totemic druid
- a cleric/mage
Not all post will include SCS, but most will, in particular if from @Lord_Tansheron
One thing I'd recommend right away is to think about a way to deal with thieves. If you're playing with SCS, most thieves will have invisibility potions and scripts that will have them backstab your unprotected party members (and in SoD, this is even true without SCS), and thanks to LoB and the extra levels, basically all thieves will backstab with a x5 multiplier right away. Combine that with 100% extra damage, also thanks to LoB, and most thieves can easily get to 100 damage with a single backstab - so either you have to be able to detect them right away, or be protected with stone/ironskins or your own brand of invisibility.
@JuliusBorisov Your party looks certainly very suitable - a bit more arcane and defensive power (which will be extremey useful with SCS) in exchange for less damage compared to mine, I'd say. My feeling is that, without a skald, the early game will be a bit more frustrating for you, but you might get rewarded later on.
To answer @Stupid_Puns specific question about a good party for a Kensai: A Kensai using melee weapons will suffer quite a bit on LoB - going into melee combat is basically suicide for such an unprotected class unless the enemy is already crowd controlled. That's why I have my Kensai use throwing daggers (and occassionally throwing axes) - if you go for a Kensai/Mage, once you get access to Stoneskin, you should be able to stand up to your opponents and fight, though.
If you really don't want to make your own party and try to build one with NPCs, here are some thoughts:
Web is very powerful in LoB, especially when used by an Invoker, so you might like Dynaheir quite a bit. Baeloth is always a powerhouse, though, and I wouldn't take more than one pure arcane spellcaster with you. With official NPCs, you can't get a totemic druid, so you might want Jaheira and/or Yeslick as divine spellcasters, as they are also decent damage dealers, but Quayle offer more flexibility. Dorn or Minsc are decent choices for additional damage, Kivan or Coran are fine as well. So you could try something like this for BG1 (if you want to have a thief):
1 Kensage
2 Baeloth/Dynaheir/Edwin
3 Quayle
4 Dorn/Minsc/Kivan (or any other single-class fighter-type with good damage output)
5 Dorn/Minsc/Kivan
6 Coran
You could easily replace Quayle with Jaheira and one of Dorn/Minsc/Kivan with Yeslick, though, if you want more divine spellpower.
For SoD, with new companions available, I would go about things in a different way. You will definitely want Corwin, her damage output is amazing and her bow is great - with the right items (Archer's Eyes, her bow and the ioun stone with +1 dexterity) she can reach 19 dexterity as well. Voghiln is also extremely useful, and Glint has very good utility (though he should be kept far away from any thieves, possibly invisible).
I'd recommend the following:
1 Kensage
2 Baeloth/Dynaheir/Edwin (still great)
3 Voghiln
4 Corwin
5 Glint
6 Dorn/Minsc
If your Kensai already has active mage levels (you didn't mention when you want to dual him), you could (and maybe should) replace one of the arcane spellcasters with another fighter-type, though.
Still, of course these groups will pale in comparison to a self-created party.
Enuhal
Having run through with a Skald, I'd say that having a Skald and building to take advantage of it, is the most powerful group you can make.
So fir SoD you can use Voghiln, but otherwise I think it's best to make your own Skald.
And the best group to run with a Skald is, IMO, 2 melee chars and 2 ranged attackers. You COULD put in a Sorcerer or perhaps other Mage and use a lot of Melf's Minute Meteors, because the Skald will boost those as well.
So my party for BGEE was Yeslick, Minsc (dual wielding), Coran, Kivan + PC Skald.
For any expansion I recommend a similar group, i.e. a fighter/cleric, a dual wielding fighter, and 2 ranged attackers. Kivan is nice because he's good at ranged and melee. If I wanted to put in a caster though I'd have to replace Kivan with a Sorcerer.
But yeah, I think Skalds make the most powerful overall parties.
Edit: I'll add. Yes, stuff like Kensage are powerful, but they don't make the most powerful parties. IMO if you want to use a Kensage (IMO Berzerker-mages are better) you should roll with a small party, like a 3 or less. Just use a Fighter/Mage and a Fighter/Thief or Cleric/Thief and be done with it. You'll be more powerful than running in a large party.
If you want a party of 4+ then Skald will always be the most powerful way to go.
Well, I think that's everyone and every point (hopefully). Sadly, due to my indecisive nature, it may take me a day or forty to think of a smart party to think of. As said earlier, I feel like (without custom characters) Kagain, Jaheria, and Dorn are almost necessary. And more importantly, I still don't think any of us know who truly shot JFK! Seeing the Kensai-mage is my main character, I probably think of this as playing BG:EE with 5 party members and an extra. An extra who, in time, will become quite helpful. Um...anything else. I feel like Blades are better than Skalds, but hey, that's me. If I ever do a custom party run, once again, I may go with Julius' simply because I like the idea a little too much. OH! Another thing, before this response becomes ten thousand years long, I have never played BG with Quayle, or really any npc after Cloakwood, except Eldoth and Skie. As such, Tiax, Quayle, and Alora are completely a mystery to me. Once last thing here, no love for Viconia here? If my memory serves, she's the best cleric in the game, what with her 65% (I believe) magic resistance. I ever went as far as playing most of the game without a thief simply because I though of her to be better than any thief. So, I truly thank all of y'all for your awe-inspiring responses, should I actually come to some form of a conclusion, you will be the first to know. Thank you, and good night.
Also, if you've never run a GROUP through with a Skald then you must do it. IN fact I don't know why anyone would ever solo with a Skald.
This has nothing to do with opinion. It's a fact that the most powerful 4+ man group you can put together will always be a group with a Skald. The Skald song (and eventually the HLA) add more power than what any individual char can muster, with the exception of something like a FMT using mislead + backstab, etc.
The "right way" to run a Skald is basically to do nothing at all with them except just stand there all the time providing your buff. You shouldn't really ever attack and hardly ever cast during a fight with one. The buff is worth more than almost any individual action you can take. You pre-buff with the Skald, like Prot from Evil / Haste / Prot from Fear, etc., and then just sing. Maybe, MAYBE, you'll cast something in a battle like Glitter dust or Confusion, but mostly no.
Also, you do need to run a mod that will improve the range of the song, because the range of bard songs is crap in the most recent versions of EE.
a) With all the LoB extra-hp, you want as many of your party as possible to deal high physical damage for a smoother playing experience. Yeslick, as a fighter/cleric, is much better at this. Viconia's low strength doesn't help (and you propably wont't be able to permanently boost it, as you plan to give Jaheira, who I think is a fine choice either way, the gauntlets of ogre strength) - keep in mind that the strength bonus is added to sling damage in the EE, so even her ranged damage, despite her 19 dexterity meaning that she will be decent at hitting things, won't be all that amazing.
b) Viconia is very squishy. A couple of arrows will kill her, a backstab will kill her - magic resistance is nice and all, but most of the time, it's physical damage you have to deal with. Unless she's fully buffed, she won't have a lot of fun if she ever can't avoid a real fight.
On the plus side, you will have earlier access to animate dead with a single-class cleric, and since you don't want to play with a totemic druid, you might need that. Still, multiclassed clerics will get there eventually.
As for Kagain, I don't think he's as great on LoB as he is on core rules - tanks without protection spells aren't exactly safe against the amount of damage most opponents can deal, even if they have ridiculous amounts of CON. Still, since you don't have a totemic druid you will eventually need someone who can absorb some blows, and waiting until you get stoneskin might take too long - but I wouldn't say it will be a great experience for Kagain. Of course, he can always stay back using throwing axes if needed...
And yes, you could have a custom party in the original game. There's nothing that's not "legit" about it, especiallly now that you don't even have to take any extra steps to get there with the EE (otherwise, you'd have to say that anything that's new with the EE isn't legit, including new NPCs - after all, you couldn't originally play with them, could you?). People who would play in multplayer would've always played that way, and would anyone really say that multiplayer isn't a legit way to play the game? Why make it an option then?
My thoughts on skalds: They are amazing, especially on LoB (the song is unimaginably helpful in reducing all the stat imbalances you will face in early BG1), that's why I recommended Voghiln for the SoD part of your playthrough. But if you're set on a Kensage, you won't be able to get one at any other time anyway, so there's not much to discuss.
Option 1:
PC = Skald
Adjantis - Tank. Use Bastard Sword & Shield until getting Spiderbane
Kivan - Archer & DW Longswords
Coran - Archer
Load all of the armor gear onto Adjantis and give him the Tomes of Con & Strength. Gauntlets of Dex of course.
Once I get Spiderbane rely heavily on Web.
That's the whole party.
Option 2:
PC = Skald
Kivan - Archer & DW Longswords
Minsc - Two Handed Sword & Longbow - early tank
Coran - Archer
Yeslick - Main Tank
Load all of the armor onto Yeslick. Give him the Tomes of Con, Big Fisted Belt & Gauntlets of Dex.
With this setup Mincs would be the tank early on, switching to Yeslick once I get him. With this I'd be able to use Web earlier with Minsc and Kivan using Bows. After getting Yeslick I'd put all the armor gear onto him and make Minsc mostly an Archer, but when using Web I'd put Mincs in and pull Yeslick back to use a sling.
This may be a little complicated and has the potential problem of having Minsc exposed with *relatively* low armor when enemies save vs the Web.
Another option would be to use the first group with Branwen, mainly for Bless and Chant, but I hate bringing a pure cleric along mainly just for some buffs. The second group is a lot stronger, but it's more complicated taking advantage of Web because the main tank can't use Spiderbane. Eventually Yeslick could get the Ring of Free Action, but that's pretty late in the game.
Also, it might be helpful to mention that it's possible to get an early ring of free action via pickpocketing it from the NPC Dushai in Ulgoth's Beard. That way, you can get 2 rings and Spider's Bane in BG1 alone (there's another ring and boots with web immunity in SoD as well), and there are also a lot of potions of freedom in the game. It's almost like the game wants us to abuse webs.
Dynaheir is nice, but doesn't contribute much other than being a Web bot. I think I'd rather have the faster levels since the Skald can cast the Webs.
Now I'm thinking maybe just not having a cleric and using Ajantis, Minsc, Kivan, a Coran with Minsc on Composite Longbow full time.
Ajantis with Prot from Evil, plus the Skald bonus will be pretty unhittable once he's geared. Three archers when they all get 3 APR with the Skald bonus will be brutal.
For a LoB party I agree with @malachi151 that skalds seem to be a better choice. Their abilities work well at range and for most of the game you're likely to be at range in LoB. The improved APR and THAC0 of enemies means that blades will be much less good at tanking in LoB, even once stoneskin is available. In the very long term they will be able to make use of PfMW, but that's a distant goal.
That role for a skald means that weapons and personal stats are not very important to them.
A Blade, like most chars, only contributes via his own abilities and doesn't add much to the team, and you mostly won't be using their song, except maybe as a way to remove fear sometimes.
Skalds basically never attack. They are just a buff bot. Your stats on a Skald, except Int for learning spells, don't even matter, though of course maxing STR, DEX, and CON is always nice, but mostly it's just bonus.
But the reason you need a Skald for LoB is that all the mobs are higher level, have more HP and higher THAC0. The Skald gives a bonus to damage, hit, and AC, and a Skald is pretty much the only way you can get your AC low enough to not get hit in LoB, and also if you do Extreme a Skald is nice too to dramatically reduce your chances of getting hit. -2 AC doesn't sound like a while lot, but it can be pretty significant really in BG1. In BG2 you'll get -4 to AC, though it still doesn't help as much really as the -2 in BG1, BUT the +4 attack is huge in BG2 where you have much higher APR. So Skalds add massive damage to parties in BG2.
And with a Skald the +2 damage and hit applies to every attack, so to maximize it you want to use high APR attacks, like Darts and Bows, or dual wielding. But for LoB dual wielding it out because you'll get killed doing it, so it's all about ranged attack. In LoB it's really all about archery, because your magic damage doesn't scale and you can't cast enough damage to take down their huge health. And they also save almost all the time, so most other CC spells are useless too. Web is the only CC that has a chance, because they have to save every round, so really, in LoB Web and buffs are the only spells that really matter. Magic Missile is still helpful to take down Mirror Images, and your Skald can cast those.
I'm not sure I'm going to try it myself, but I think if your plan is to create your own party I'd go for:
Dwarven Defender : Tank (The 50% damage reduction is key for LoB and makes DDs pretty much the only viable choice) Start with ++ in War Hammers and ++Sword and Shield Style. The other option would be to go with a Barbarian for kiting, but that seems risky with their low AC.
Archer : Duh
Totemic Druid : The summons get the same HP buffs that the mobs do, making summons quite powerful in LoB. Also Bless is helpful and eventually Iron Skin and Insect Swarm and Mass Healing. The Woodland Creatures are less helpful because most of their spells will be ineffective, but their mass heal is nice and additional distractions are always nice. Unfortunately you're stuck with slings, so pump DEX and STR. But the Skald buffs do apply to the summons so that helps and you can summon animals in addition to the spirit animals.
Skald : Of course
I'd start with that party, and pick up others along the way. Definitely Coran, maybe Kivan maybe Minsc. IMO you can do without a thief until you get Coran. Mostly you'll let your NPC companions get killed if need be, except Coran since you need a thief.
Coran is basically better than any fighter/thief you could create because he gets bonus DEX and Longbow pips. The only bad thing about Coran is you've got to kill the Wyverns to get him. Not so sure about that in LoB, I've not tried that yet. I think I'd try sending in the Druid invisible, then summoning a Spirit Animal off in a corner if possible, and then send in the rest of the crew after they Wyverns aggro onto the summon.