Avengers don't quite make sense...
malachi151
Member Posts: 152
Yes, Avengers are better than straight Druids, and for soloing they have their advantages, but the mix of their bonus spells doesn't quite make sense.
IMO, Avengers are overrated because they really only make sense in one setting, and that is as the only caster in a party. Avengers are basically a light version of a Mage/Cleric, much like a Stalker is Fighter/Thief light, and a Blade is a Fighter/Mage light, etc.
But the problem is that if you make the Avenger the only caster in your party, then you miss out on key spells that you would want in a Fighter heavy party. Those key spells are Prot from Petrification and Haste.
So, IMO, the Avenger's level 1 spell should be Prot from Petrification and their level 3 spell should be Haste. With those two spells a party like an Avenger with 3 to 5 other Fighter and/or Thief classes would make some sense, but without Haste such a party just isn't justifiable.
And, IMO, when you put an Avenger in a party with other Arcane casters, their value goes way down because their kit doesn't really bring anything new to the group. In a group with Arcane casters I think Totemic Druids make far more sense. Otherwise their main advantage is just providing more access to Improved Invisibility.
IMO, Avengers are overrated because they really only make sense in one setting, and that is as the only caster in a party. Avengers are basically a light version of a Mage/Cleric, much like a Stalker is Fighter/Thief light, and a Blade is a Fighter/Mage light, etc.
But the problem is that if you make the Avenger the only caster in your party, then you miss out on key spells that you would want in a Fighter heavy party. Those key spells are Prot from Petrification and Haste.
So, IMO, the Avenger's level 1 spell should be Prot from Petrification and their level 3 spell should be Haste. With those two spells a party like an Avenger with 3 to 5 other Fighter and/or Thief classes would make some sense, but without Haste such a party just isn't justifiable.
And, IMO, when you put an Avenger in a party with other Arcane casters, their value goes way down because their kit doesn't really bring anything new to the group. In a group with Arcane casters I think Totemic Druids make far more sense. Otherwise their main advantage is just providing more access to Improved Invisibility.
0
Comments
Also wouldn't require buying/finding those scrolls.
If you gave druids haste it would be game breaking for bg1 due to how fast they get there first few levels.
Orb, Web, Bolt, Improved Invisiblity, Chaos, Chain Lightning.
The only spell that does stand out a bit is maybe Improved Invisibility, but given that this spell can also be used offensively, so that is ok. All other spells are straightforward offensive spells that fit the idea of a Avenger. Web, Bolt and Chain Lightning even have a connection to typical druidic powers.
They are not there to replace an arcane caster. BG 2 kits are thematic and not about filling a niche.
Where a Cleric/Mage really shines is in a Fighter heavy party because that one char is capable of handing out all the buffs, and in a Fighter heavy party, buffs are what matter.
Avengers would be great as the sole casters in a party, except they aren't because without Haste it doesn't make sense to have a Fighter heavy party to begin with as Haste is the single most effective spell there is in a Fighter heavy party.
It's also a bit of a bummer because you can't multi-class a Druid/Mage, so really Avenger is the only alternative for having something like Druid/Mage, which would be good because you would have Insect Swarm along with other good Mage spells.
All I'm saying is, that if Avengers had Prot from Petrification and Haste, they would be far, far better, and would make Fighter heavy parties more viable even in BG2. (Although Skald would still probably be better, but it would be close).
Haste actually isn't that necessary for fighter heavy parties: it's actually non-fighter parties getting more mileage out of the extra 1 APR per person. A Tuigan's user with Grandmastery goes from 5 APR to 6 APR, a 20% increase. Someone like Jan using a crossbow, on the other hand, goes from 1 APR to 2 APR for a 100% damage increase. And even worse are warriors without either GM or level 13: they're gaining a pitiful 1/2 APR. Haste can be useful for maneuvering but it's by no means a necessity fo physical damage parties. Breach is much more important for these parties than haste.
Avengers are fine as they are: their weaker spells are at 3, 5, and 6, but that's where some of the strongest Druid spells are anyways, plus gain some nifty shape shifts on top of it.
The downside to Chromatic Orb is the saving throw bonus enemies gets, thus you need enemies suffering from Doom and Greater Malison for the best chance of the Orb having an effect. With another divine caster in the party, one can open up with Doom freeing up the other divine caster for other useful openings like a cleric's silence or an Avenger's web. And with arcane casters in the party, the enemy can get Greater Malison cast upon them to counter the Saving Throw bonus enemies get.
*edit: and the faster levelling makes Chromatic Orb even more useful with the Add Save Penalties for Spells Cast by High-Level Casters component from the Tweaks Anthology (formerly BG2Tweaks).
Unlike Mage/Clerics, Avengers (and druids in general) get access to higher-level spells quickly. And these spells are not protection-related (they are not arcane, so no MGoI, no Spell Immunity, no Mirror Image), they're usually very attacking. Insect Plague, Woodland Beings, Dolorous Decay, Fire Elementals - all these spells are designed to attack. And Avenger's bonus spells are nice additions to exactly the attacking part. Web makes killing enemies much easier. Chromatic orb, Lightining Bolt, Chain Lightning - these spells enhance the "killing" part of the spell repertoire.
And boy, druids get A LOT of lvl 2 spells. So an avenger will cover your Web department fully.
This attacking approach to spells will let your other casters in the group focus on other spells: buffing, debuffing, protection, anti-magic etc. A full mage (or a sorcerer) and a full cleric, or their multi-class variants will be able to focus on other spells, while the avenger is responsible for the killing part.
So actually an avenger will greatly support a party with one, two or even three other casters.
This is how I usually use avengers.
Multi/dual class combos should have had more penalties, something like no access to the upper spell level of each class. Then, a multi/dual class would trade power for flexibility, instead of just taking more time to get to an absurd level of power.
That's why I perfer kits by far. Swashbucklers are what fighter/thieves should be. Vanilla bards are nice fighter/mage/thieves (blades are a bit too powerful for me, but they're still much better designed than straight fighter/mages). Paladins are effectively good fighter/clerics. Shapeshifters are better designed fighter/druids (with some mod help in that case, though