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Avengers don't quite make sense...

malachi151malachi151 Member Posts: 120
Yes, Avengers are better than straight Druids, and for soloing they have their advantages, but the mix of their bonus spells doesn't quite make sense.

IMO, Avengers are overrated because they really only make sense in one setting, and that is as the only caster in a party. Avengers are basically a light version of a Mage/Cleric, much like a Stalker is Fighter/Thief light, and a Blade is a Fighter/Mage light, etc.

But the problem is that if you make the Avenger the only caster in your party, then you miss out on key spells that you would want in a Fighter heavy party. Those key spells are Prot from Petrification and Haste.

So, IMO, the Avenger's level 1 spell should be Prot from Petrification and their level 3 spell should be Haste. With those two spells a party like an Avenger with 3 to 5 other Fighter and/or Thief classes would make some sense, but without Haste such a party just isn't justifiable.

And, IMO, when you put an Avenger in a party with other Arcane casters, their value goes way down because their kit doesn't really bring anything new to the group. In a group with Arcane casters I think Totemic Druids make far more sense. Otherwise their main advantage is just providing more access to Improved Invisibility.

Comments

  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 360
    edited October 22
    Druids level up faster than mages so avengers would get access to the mage spells faster and would free up mage spells slots by having those extra mage spells
    Also wouldn't require buying/finding those scrolls.

    If you gave druids haste it would be game breaking for bg1 due to how fast they get there first few levels.
    semiticgodNoobaccatypo_tilly
  • ValciValci Member Posts: 22
    well i dont know about you but i love playing avenger... I'm going through BG atm with a neutral/evil party with Dorn and Shar-teel as melee damage dealers, Vikki as healer (with sling), Xan as (de)buffer/CC (with sling), Safana as an archer and my Avenger as offensive caster with some buffing and Shapeshifting thrown in. From a RP perspective he is a shadow druid of sorts that underwent the ritual of becoming an avenger due to the desire to kill everyone that threatens the great mother... sort of like Dorn and his revenge thing... once i get to BG2 i intend to go with Dorn, Korgan, Haer-Dalis, Vikki and Jan. Plenty of room to mix and match spells in that line-up with little overlap... Haer will probably be mostly self buffing (fire shields, stone skins etc) melee combatant, Jan will take care of the hasting, invisibility and have some higher level AoE thrown in for good measure later on and the Avenger will continue doing what he's doing...
    JuliusBorisovNoobaccatypo_tilly
  • malachi151malachi151 Member Posts: 120
    Obviously Avengers are viable and perfectly playable, but as a "light" version of a Cleric/Mage they can't really fill that role at all, because they are missing key spells.

    Where a Cleric/Mage really shines is in a Fighter heavy party because that one char is capable of handing out all the buffs, and in a Fighter heavy party, buffs are what matter.

    Avengers would be great as the sole casters in a party, except they aren't because without Haste it doesn't make sense to have a Fighter heavy party to begin with as Haste is the single most effective spell there is in a Fighter heavy party.

    It's also a bit of a bummer because you can't multi-class a Druid/Mage, so really Avenger is the only alternative for having something like Druid/Mage, which would be good because you would have Insect Swarm along with other good Mage spells.

    All I'm saying is, that if Avengers had Prot from Petrification and Haste, they would be far, far better, and would make Fighter heavy parties more viable even in BG2. (Although Skald would still probably be better, but it would be close).
    typo_tilly
  • ValciValci Member Posts: 22
    edited October 23
    well that depends whether you are power gaming on not... i personally never do that. I dont play cheese classes that are very OP... And i dont multiclass "charname" ever. No Kensai(Berserker)/Mage, or F/M/T or Cleric/Ranger or such. Just not for me. And why would i want a "fighter heavy" party to begin with? I prefer a balanced party myself. In BG1 at least my Avenger gets access to higher level spells quicker then a mage would and with the ring from Mulahey has plenty of casts too (high level Chromatic Orb, Lightining Bolt, an early Chaos etc.). Also, with Dorn using Spider's Bane (freedom of movement) and my Avenger shapeshifting into a spider (can move through Web - duh) i got plenty of use from Web. Anyway... if what youre saying is that its not a "do it all" caster then i agree... but i wouldnt want that anyway...
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 364
    There's maybe 5 points in both games where Pro. Petrification is useful, one of which is negated by Improved Invisibility, and all the rest are in BG1 and coverable with potions of mirrored eyes. There are Petrication traps as well in BG2 but that's handleable by a thief.
    Haste actually isn't that necessary for fighter heavy parties: it's actually non-fighter parties getting more mileage out of the extra 1 APR per person. A Tuigan's user with Grandmastery goes from 5 APR to 6 APR, a 20% increase. Someone like Jan using a crossbow, on the other hand, goes from 1 APR to 2 APR for a 100% damage increase. And even worse are warriors without either GM or level 13: they're gaining a pitiful 1/2 APR. Haste can be useful for maneuvering but it's by no means a necessity fo physical damage parties. Breach is much more important for these parties than haste.

    Avengers are fine as they are: their weaker spells are at 3, 5, and 6, but that's where some of the strongest Druid spells are anyways, plus gain some nifty shape shifts on top of it.
    JuliusBorisovMirandel
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,567
    edited October 23
    One of the reasons I like Avengers needs more arcane casters in the party and that's because of the Chromatic Orb. It's effects get better with gaining levels and the Druid levels faster than anyone but rogues (until level 14 that is).

    The downside to Chromatic Orb is the saving throw bonus enemies gets, thus you need enemies suffering from Doom and Greater Malison for the best chance of the Orb having an effect. With another divine caster in the party, one can open up with Doom freeing up the other divine caster for other useful openings like a cleric's silence or an Avenger's web. And with arcane casters in the party, the enemy can get Greater Malison cast upon them to counter the Saving Throw bonus enemies get.

    *edit: and the faster levelling makes Chromatic Orb even more useful with the Add Save Penalties for Spells Cast by High-Level Casters component from the Tweaks Anthology (formerly BG2Tweaks).
    JuliusBorisovtbone1typo_tilly
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 662
    The Avengers Sword Spider shapeshift is a lot of fun in conjunction with their Web spell.
    tbone1semiticgodDreadKhan
  • ValciValci Member Posts: 22

    The Avengers Sword Spider shapeshift is a lot of fun in conjunction with their Web spell.

    True that :smile: one thing that bugs me though... My spider form isn't hasted in bgee. Is that intended? Was it considered too strong?
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,024
    The only thing that doesn't make sense about the Avenger is why they get Web and not every other Druid as well. Web just seems like it should be such a druidic spell.
    ThacoBellsemiticgodWarChiefZeke
  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 821
    Yeah, Avengers really doesn't make sense anymore.. I mean, adding Spiderman to the group? Blah! :P
    scriver
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,156
    And where are Steed and Mrs Peel! It’s supposed to be a sexy spy thing, not wankers running around in spandex tights.
    Balrog99abacusThacoBellElendar
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 364
    Main problem is that 80% of the time Insect Plague is just the better 5th level slot. In a vacuum, Chaos is great, but it doesn't match up great vs Druid 5ths. At least not in comparison to getting Web vs... I don't even know. Slow poison for 2nd level?
  • ArctodusArctodus Member Posts: 590
    To me, Avengers make all the sense in the world. They're not as strong as any multi or dual class combo like fighter/druid of cleric/mage, but they're much better designed. I actually think it's the other way around : it's the multi and dual class options that don't make a lot of sense.

    Multi/dual class combos should have had more penalties, something like no access to the upper spell level of each class. Then, a multi/dual class would trade power for flexibility, instead of just taking more time to get to an absurd level of power.

    That's why I perfer kits by far. Swashbucklers are what fighter/thieves should be. Vanilla bards are nice fighter/mage/thieves (blades are a bit too powerful for me, but they're still much better designed than straight fighter/mages). Paladins are effectively good fighter/clerics. Shapeshifters are better designed fighter/druids (with some mod help in that case, though :p ). So, Avengers are druid/mages with a nice power level at the end of the game. Without the presence of a GM like in pnp, the way multi and dual classes were effectively implemented in the BG games tends, in my opinion, to become completely broken at higher levels.
    JuliusBorisovOrlonKronsteen
  • ValciValci Member Posts: 22
    edited October 24
    Arctodus said:

    To me, Avengers make all the sense in the world. They're not as strong as any multi or dual class combo like fighter/druid of cleric/mage, but they're much better designed. I actually think it's the other way around : it's the multi and dual class options that don't make a lot of sense.

    Multi/dual class combos should have had more penalties, something like no access to the upper spell level of each class. Then, a multi/dual class would trade power for flexibility, instead of just taking more time to get to an absurd level of power.

    That's why I perfer kits by far. Swashbucklers are what fighter/thieves should be. Vanilla bards are nice fighter/mage/thieves (blades are a bit too powerful for me, but they're still much better designed than straight fighter/mages). Paladins are effectively good fighter/clerics. Shapeshifters are better designed fighter/druids (with some mod help in that case, though :p ). So, Avengers are druid/mages with a nice power level at the end of the game. Without the presence of a GM like in pnp, the way multi and dual classes were effectively implemented in the BG games tends, in my opinion, to become completely broken at higher levels.

    Agree 100%. Imho you are spot on mate... That's exactly why I never play with dual/multi-classes if I can help it (except for taking Jan with me... Love them turnip stories hehe). I'm not really interested in being OP...
    ArctodusOrlonKronsteen
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 662
    What makes multis so OP is the increased HLAs, but if I recall correctly mutlis benefitted from that when gaining HLAs in the PnP 2nd edition as well. Although they could only choose an HLA from the class they leveled up in.
  • SikorskySikorsky Member Posts: 283
    I've got a question? Do stats scale down after shapeshift? If I turn into Sword Spider and my STR is 17 will it scale to 16 or stay?
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 483
    Sikorsky said:

    I've got a question? Do stats scale down after shapeshift? If I turn into Sword Spider and my STR is 17 will it scale to 16 or stay?

    Will scale down.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,502
    Strength buffs can raise that str if applied after iirc.
    semiticgod
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