The best thief build?

Kirkor

I love the thief class, and I very often play as one. Last time I've played BG2, I was an assassin.
But I'm sure someone have made something much more powerful.
So what is the best (in your opinion) thief build? It can be any kit or any multiclass, but it has to be thief.

Shin

Generally fighter/thieves tend to be more effective than pure-class ones, for most things a thief can contribute with. The kensai/thief in particular gains immense benefit from the Use Any Item HLA, and can utilize Kai for some borderline broken backstabs, but has a slow start in return.

cbarchuk

Multi-class fighter/thieves all the way. Elf, Halfling, Dwarf, Half-orc. Take your pick. They're all good. F/T are great out of the gate and great late game. The only weakness is they will level a tad slower. But this disadvantage, if you can even call it that, is pretty minute. Thieves already level extremely quick so it really isn't that big of deal You can start with higher strength. You have better proficiencies, better THACO, better HP, more APR. The list goes on. By the time you get HLA's, you'll be rocking fighter and thief abilities. You'll be able to backstab with impunity or fight toe to toe if you have to.

Pantalion

For long term general purposes I'd be inclined to say Elven Fighter/Mage/Thief.

You can do everything except heal yourself, except you can also heal yourself with Tenser's.

Level 18 Fighter gets you a base THAC0 of 3 and stupidly good saves, as well as 10 proficiency points.
Level 22 Thief gets you an x5 backstab multiplier. I forget how many skill points, but let's say "enough" and guess around 400 or so as a conservative estimate.
Level 17 Mage by the ToB cap gets you level 8 spells.

Since you'll hit the 3m HLA cap at level 12/12/14, that's 19 HLAs you pick up, which is neat as well, but the real advantage here is that you'll be able to throw around up to level 8 spells, including Melf's Minute Meteors, Mislead (Cheesiness doesn't stop it from being insanely powerful), Limited Wish, and all the glorious magical defences that make mages unkillable murder machines.

elminster

I'm more fan of a straight swashbuckler. By the 24th level (so 3.08 million XP) you can get a single HLA (use any item), which means that not only can you cast from scrolls, but most importantly you can use tensor's transformation. For whatever reason the game treats your thieving level as if it were the same as a mage of the same level using the spell (so you are outside of the proficiencies and saves a level 24 fighter). So basically in my tests case my hitpoints doubled, my base thaco dropped by three, and it is possible that my test character did not lose any extra damage she would have had without the transformation (I will admit that it is entirely possible I'm wrong on this last claim though I did check shadowkeeper and it looked like they are still active). When I leveled her up to level 40 (max thief level) at 19 constitution she almost obtained 300hp using tensor's (I think it was 292). Not only that, but so long as you can use scrolls you can continue to cast spells (something you normally can't do with tensors active). Obviously its not ideal in all circumstances, but with your own random scrolling ability you can store up useful scrolls to use later while buying the ones you may need in big battles like tensors. You can therefore gain all of the spells you need so long as you are willing to either steal them (not that much of an issue when it is very easy by 3 million experience to have 100 in every thieving stat) or buy them.

The downside is you only get 17 higher level abilities (or I guess extra uses depending). Its not really that big of a downside, but its noteworthy.

You also lose out on backstab (though there is nothing stopping you from using another thief kit like assassin to gain much of these benefits), but I think as a swashbuckler you get some interesting level advantages over a f/m/t and even perhaps a f/t.

Edit: You also can be any race if you stick with being a pure thief

Mechalibur

You're probably going to be outside the level cap for at least 90% of your play experience, so it's probably best not to just look at the end results for which class/setup is the best.

I have to agree that fighter/theif is probably better than just a theif. Lets you start with 18/XX STR, and use the belts if that isn't high enough for you. The proficiency points certainly help you out, and you'll still have enough thief points to go around, though they might be somewhat lacking early on if you aren't bringing along any other thief. For backstabbing machines, I think they're better than the assassin.

Half-orc swashbuckler is pretty compelling, though. You can ignore the silly 18/XX strength and go straight to 19, letting someone else take the belts. Being able to spend 2 points is pretty sweet (and really, all you need since GM is kinda crappy in BG2), but you get those points a bit slowly. Half-orcs don't get any skill bonuses, but since Swashbuckler doesn't give any up, you should have plenty. Not as good as backstabbers as Assassins or Fighter/Thiefs, but they're reliable.

elminster

Mechalibur said:

You're probably going to be outside the level cap for at least 90% of your play experience, so it's probably best not to just look at the end results for which class/setup is the best.

I have to agree that fighter/theif is probably better than just a theif. Lets you start with 18/XX STR, and use the belts if that isn't high enough for you. The proficiency points certainly help you out, and you'll still have enough thief points to go around, though they might be somewhat lacking early on if you aren't bringing along any other thief. For backstabbing machines, I think they're better than the assassin.

Half-orc swashbuckler is pretty compelling, though. You can ignore the silly 18/XX strength and go straight to 19, letting someone else take the belts. Being able to spend 2 points is pretty sweet (and really, all you need since GM is kinda crappy in BG2), but you get those points a bit slowly. Half-orcs don't get any skill bonuses, but since Swashbuckler doesn't give any up, you should have plenty. Not as good as backstabbers as Assassins or Fighter/Thiefs, but they're reliable.

Personally I prefer the dwarf as I always like shorty saves (and the 17 dexterity is very managable even at level 1) but a Half-orc is also a solid swashbuckler choice for its starting strength.

sarevok57

i was an evil fighter/thief once and when i hit 3 000 000 xp i took use any item, and i was wielding a holy avenger, it was pretty badass, but usually what i do for thieves, is start as a fighter, grow it to level 7, then dual class it over to a thief, a level 7 fighter/level 39 thief, is INFINITELY better than a standard level 40 thief, but as @Shin said, if you love backstabbing, then be a kensai and grow to level 13 then dual class over to a thief, and not only will you have nice attacks per round, but once your thief gets x5 backstab, its really gonna hurt baddies and also what @elminster said, i love swashbucklers, i never used tenser's transformation with them though, because i never really needed it, my swashbucklers always hit around -24 AC almost 200 hp, 5 attacks per round that will average around 30 or so damage a hit, so it depends on how you like playing your thief, what you could do as well, is start off as an assasain and once you get x7 backstab dual over into a cleric, and then once you get draw upon holy might, and righteous magic with your x7 back stabs, those will do some serious damage

elminster

sarevok57 said:

i was an evil fighter/thief once and when i hit 3 000 000 xp i took use any item, and i was wielding a holy avenger, it was pretty badass, but usually what i do for thieves, is start as a fighter, grow it to level 7, then dual class it over to a thief, a level 7 fighter/level 39 thief, is INFINITELY better than a standard level 40 thief, but as @Shin said, if you love backstabbing, then be a kensai and grow to level 13 then dual class over to a thief, and not only will you have nice attacks per round, but once your thief gets x5 backstab, its really gonna hurt baddies and also what @elminster said, i love swashbucklers, i never used tenser's transformation with them though, because i never really needed it, my swashbucklers always hit around -24 AC almost 200 hp, 5 attacks per round that will average around 30 or so damage a hit, so it depends on how you like playing your thief, what you could do as well, is start off as an assasain and once you get x7 backstab dual over into a cleric, and then once you get draw upon holy might, and righteous magic with your x7 back stabs, those will do some serious damage

Yea but dualing over to a cleric when you hit x7 for backstabs is going to make your thieving skills unusable for a long time. You don't get x7 until level 21 (2.5 million XP in). I'd also add that unless there are items that add a lot of HP which I can't think of at the moment you should have roughly 150 HP as a max level swashbuckler with items. 80 hp from your first ten levels and 2hp/level up until level 40. For instance my test character with no items on had 146 HP (not sure why she did not have 140).

Quartz

I'm with the Fighter/Thief crowd. I know that there are some ridiculously overpowered dual-class combos and "oh mah gawsh level cap Fighter/Mage/Thief is teh best!!!111" but seriously, Fighter/Thief is awesome *the entire game,* not just at super high level where everyone already totally pwns anyway. That can't be overlooked.

FrozenCells

Quartz said:

I'm with the Fighter/Thief crowd. I know that there are some ridiculously overpowered dual-class combos and "oh mah gawsh level cap Fighter/Mage/Thief is teh best!!!111" but seriously, Fighter/Thief is awesome *the entire game,* not just at super high level where everyone already totally pwns anyway. That can't be overlooked.

What's more often overlooked is that the F/M/T is also awesome the whole series. It's not ridiculously overpowered at lower levels, but it's still very good.

At TotSC level cap, the F/M/T is only one level behind in each class compared to a F/T, and at the SoA level cap all the way at 3mil xp it is only two levels behind each class. It's marginally weaker than the F/T in combat numbers and thief skills but in exchange it gets mage spells, which is an easily worthwhile trade at whatever point in the series you're at (except the very beginning of BG1).

It's also a really fun class if you like to backstab since mages get all of the invisibility spells and other niceities, plus the fighter levels keep your backstabs from missing a lot.

Quartz

FrozenCells said:

What's more often overlooked is that the F/M/T is also awesome the whole series. It's not ridiculously overpowered at lower levels, but it's still very good.

At TotSC level cap, the F/M/T is only one level behind in each class compared to a F/T, and at the SoA level cap all the way at 3mil xp it is only two levels behind each class. It's marginally weaker than the F/T in combat numbers and thief skills but in exchange it gets mage spells, which is an easily worthwhile trade at whatever point in the series you're at (except the very beginning of BG1).

It's also a really fun class if you like to backstab since mages get all of the invisibility spells and other niceities, plus the fighter levels keep your backstabs from missing a lot.

Ya, definitely a very interesting combo, I must admit I prefer the simple Mage/Thief. Gotta say however, that class is kind of ruined for me though since there are 3 NPCs in BGII that are Mage/Thieves (and 3 NPCs in BG1 that can dual-class to it).

FrozenCells said:

What's more often overlooked is that the F/M/T is also awesome the whole series.

I'd like to point out your word choice here could've been a teensy bit better. You should've said "What's also often overlooked." That way you sound more convincing. By saying "What's more often overlooked," you just sound like you're trying to one-up me, and no one likes that. Food for thought! Good post otherwise, cheers.

FrozenCells

Quartz said:

I'd like to point out your word choice here could've been a teensy bit better. You should've said "What's also often overlooked." That way you sound more convincing. By saying "What's more often overlooked," you just sound like you're trying to one-up me, and no one likes that. Food for thought! Good post otherwise, cheers.

Well, reading around, the F/M/T is generally presented as a class that you must solo because it levels painfully slowly and isn't that good in a group, neither of which are really true. There's plenty of love for Fighter/thieves but I think F/M/Ts ARE more often overlooked as a legitimate PC class for a group game.

Quartz

FrozenCells said:

Quartz said:

I'd like to point out your word choice here could've been a teensy bit better. You should've said "What's also often overlooked." That way you sound more convincing. By saying "What's more often overlooked," you just sound like you're trying to one-up me, and no one likes that. Food for thought! Good post otherwise, cheers.

Well, reading around, the F/M/T is generally presented as a class that you must solo because it levels painfully slowly and isn't that good in a group, neither of which are really true. There's plenty of love for Fighter/thieves but I think F/M/Ts ARE more often overlooked as a legitimate PC class for a group game.

^^; My point was about writing more persuasively, not about whether you were right or wrong. I think you are quite right that F/M/Ts are more often overlooked, I was just going all "here's how to write a persuasive essay" on you. ...Yes, I am that much of a nerd.

ryuken87

I don't think there is a 'best' thief as the different builds all function a bit differently.
- The F/T multi is good all round, and as said previously, very consistent throughout the whole series.
- The K/T dual class good combat ability and has great backstabs, not as good as the Assassin, but then the Assassin isn't good at much else. He misses fighter HLAs however.
- The F/M/T is an awesome backstabber late on if you don't mind a bit of Mislead cheese every now and then. The M/T can also do this but with fewer apr and lower thac0. I'm really not a fan of F/M/T in the early-mid stages of either game however.

My favourites are halfling F/T and gnome Ill/T for consistency, practicality and power the whole way through the saga.

Pantalion

@Quartz, you're quite right that there are M/Ts coming out of the woodwork throughout the series, but I'd suggest that there are more than enough "self only" buffs to make an F/M/T still a very viable choice (and I'd argue that even if you ignore the THAC0, proficiencies and health bonuses from Fighter, the extra attacks alone are well worth the levels lost in the other two classes). If the cap in EETOB is raised at all (even by 1 level), then FMT becomes vastly more powerful again.

Concerning the overlap, with the limited amount of thief skill points available, you also get the freedom to invest points so that each X/thief handles different things well, rather than having to cover a wider spread with one. For me having multiple X/thieves around isn't a downside (and let's face it, Nalia is no real thief, Immy's a dabbler, only Jan really gets a decent run at thievery, so there's still plenty of scope there).

Mungri

Why no love for a 19 str Horc Cleric / Thief? Righteous magic, DUHM, champions strength etc and backstabs / traps. Lovely.

Pantalion

Mungri said:

Why no love for a 19 str Horc Cleric / Thief? Righteous magic, DUHM, champions strength etc and backstabs / traps. Lovely.

Probably the same reason as Mage/Thief overall; the Cleric/Thief base THAC0 caps at 6, and they only get one attack per round and can't specialise.

Whilst they can hit absurdly, awesomely, hard with a Staff/backstab combo and self-buffs, the wider weapon availability and larger number of attacks available to a Fighter mix do tend to emphasise the advantages of the Fighter/X/Thief, especially late game, where the latter can pick up Whirlwinds, or even better grab an Improved Haste, then Critical Strike - That's up to ten backstabs that automatically hit, automatically crit (x100 base damage), and can be performed whilst wielding Carsomyr.

The damage bonii of the high strength a C/T can achieve through buffs is, at least in my opinion, not enough to offset the rather larger boosts available to a Fighter mix.

Kirkor

So most of people say F/T. And I will try that my first EE playthrough.
I've never actualy played Dual or multiclasses. It was kinda weird for me.

And dualclassing is not for me. I would need to play as a human, which is not ok with me - I'm human in RL :P

Thanks for all your posts. They were very informative.

cbarchuk

Yea I think F/M/T is better off as a solo character in my opinion. Mage spells like invisibility are useful especially in BG 1 but by BG2 and ToB enemies can see through the spell UNLESS you're using plain ol' stealth and the cloak of non-detection. So in other words, hide in shadows and move silently will ultimately be more powerful.

Kensai-Thief...ugh. I've tried to play this character but it sucks...until...high level when you get your Kensai levels back and get UAI. Well to me that sucks. It's a long wait. You have to baby sit your pathetic low level Kensai and plain thief. Pretty pointless that you have to wait a lonnnnnggggg time for a character to be good. I know the backstabs are pretty ridiculous. But most of the time, they're overkill. A regular fighter/thief will kill the same target with a backstab and then turn around and use greater whirlwind. Afterwards he'll retreat to the shadows with his cloak of non-detection and dance around all the true sight enemies going "na nana boo boo."

trinit

i love concept of assassin, but let's face it- the higher backstab multiplier comes very late, poison is often saved against, and the thieving points you get are pathetic
poison is good for spellcasters, since poisoning animations stops them from casting spells, good for use with malison from another party member. also it can be used with bows.

i have to admit i had more fun with kensai-thief, this build hits MORE often and gets more attacks per round. in my mind it is better then assassin overall.
i'm thinking about trying cleric-thief in this playthrough...

diggerb

Thinking long-term development, I start my thief character in BG1 as a human fighter, then dual at 2nd level to thief. This ultimately leads to Grand Mastery in Longsword, which can result 200+ HP backstabs in the later stages of BG2.

cbarchuk

diggerb,

I typically don't like dual class but I may try your idea out here in BG:EE. So fighter to level 2 and then dual immediately to thief? What do you put your intial proficiency points in? Longsword I assume along with dual wielding?

Mungri

No not dual wielding, single weapon style for a higher crit chance on backstabs, and more AC. Also if dualing don't dual from a plain fighter, dual from a 3 or 6 kensai.

Proficiency points - 2 in single weapon style, rest in a 1 handed thief weapon style - both longswords or scimitars are fine, but you get a +2 longsword much earlier in the game.

Abel

@diggerb @cbarchuk You need 3 levels for your Fighter to get 5 skill points.
Agree with @Mungri about dual-classing a Kensaï instead of a pure Fighter. If lack of armor is a bother, consider the Berserker instead.

Mungri

If you put 2 points in Single weapon style, your kensai will have -4 AC. At level 3 and 6 you get additional Kai clickies, or hit bonuses, I can't remember which.

Abel

@Mungri Yay, hit/dmg. Kaï is every 4 level.

Mungri

Right, so dual at 4 or 6 in BG1, 9 or 13 in BG2.

Abel

I would say dual at 3 or 4 great maximum, otherwise it will require a lot of experience.
If you choose to dual at 3, reactivation comes at 9k. At 4, it requires 18k (x2). At 6, 72k (x8).
The increase in power isn't worth the pain you will have starting over your character and waiting until mid-game for your class to reactivate.

elminster

Personally I'm playing a non-kit halfling thief right now in BG1 vanilla. The short sword +2 helps a lot where I am right now (the Naskel mines), along with my dexterity.

cbarchuk

Ah the classic single class thief. Good choice. Are you having any problems hitting anything? Just curious. I've never done a pure thief. I like it though. Very iconic.