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Swashbuckler AC monster..?

KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 636
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
So I've been teasing myself with this weird idea..

We all know a fighter in full plate and shield will at one point be unable to get high enough AC to be able to depend on it to keep him safe.

But what about a Swashbuckler using UAI to equip full plate, shield and all them fancy trinkets?
Gaxx, earth control ring, balduran helmet.. and some necklace.

Should be able to see AC to -25 or so by max lvl?
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Comments

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Yup.
  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.
    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    I tried this in Black Pits 2, yes he got uai and suddenly was able to equip the heaviest armors/shields, and that gave an impressive ac. However, by that time we were facing dragons/planetars/demi liches etc. so it had little tactical value.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    You can also cast improved invisibility on them, giving enemies a -4 penalty to hit them, increasing their AC equivalent even beyond the -25 cap.
  • malachi151malachi151 Member Posts: 152
    It'a always an interesting idea, but Ironskin, Stoneskin and damage resistance end up being much easier to use to get the same or better results so it never really ends up being worth it.

    This is always a struggle for me too, since I have played BG1 a lot more and I love stacking AC in BG1 to get essentially unhittable (except by Saravok).
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 636
    Isn't the demigorgon's thac0 at -8? If so, AC at 28 means he could hit only on a 20...

    It just seems to me that anything other than mages won't be able to touch the bastard.

    Might have to give it a try, even if just for giggles..

    That.. or just do an ultimate bhaalspawn run, remove lvl cap go solo f/m/t :P
  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421
    OlvynChuru said:

    @Yulaw9460 Some comments:



    These improvements are as such that you wouldn't need to use a shield. Instead, you could dual-wield and still get an amazing AC. Optimally, you would dual-wield Belm and the Scarlet Ninja-to, giving you a total of 4 attacks per round.

    or you wield Firetooth+3 in your mainhand it gets 2 base attacks and can be dual wielded in melee mode , with 2d4 and +3 enchant would it beat 1d8 Belm+2 slightly.

  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 268
    -26 should be possible. It won't help.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    unavailable said:

    -26 should be possible. It won't help.

    Yeah it would. Hitting 25 means anything short of a boss will whiff the majority of the time. Hitting 28 means even Demogorgon would need a 20 to hit you.
  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421
    how does -21 AC with
    100 Fire-
    100 Cold-
    100 Electricity-
    80 Acid-
    100 Magic-
    80 Magic Fire-
    80 Magic Cold-
    100 Poison-resistance sound ?

    thats my Shapeshifter druid in "Dreamgear" after Baal tears. only downside you have to re-equip the magic resistance items every time you shapeshift...
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 513
    Grond0 said:

    It's quite amusing doing the final battles against Melissan when everything needs a critical to hit you :D. I'm always surprised that the general view seems to be that AC makes no difference in ToB. Sure damage resistance, stoneskins and PFMW can work. However, it seems much more satisfying to me to weave through an attacking mob while weapons flail all around you, but rarely make contact.

    It's not that AC makes no difference, it's that the sacrifices required to get AC to the point where it's effective are extremely difficult and require sacrifices in other areas and/or specific classes. Another important point is that most of the challenging encounters tend to have something other than melee damage that causes the problems, i mean you can have AC -28 Vs Demogorgan but when he blaps you with Implosion and you get stunned for a round and then he and 3 Mariliths peel through your armour like a pack of monkeys going at a bunch of banana's then it's pointless, i'd rather not get imploded and stunned and instead hit 1 or 2 times in melee myself.

    The vast majority of classes have alternatives to AC, so it's a case of tailoring items and spells to match encounter requirements. The game is pretty well designed, tough encounters throughout do a great job of mixing up the tactics and abilities that will result in a victory, you can certainly monster through a lot of them with a super-high AC character, but at times it will fall short.
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 268
    ThacoBell said:

    unavailable said:

    -26 should be possible. It won't help.

    Yeah it would. Hitting 25 means anything short of a boss will whiff the majority of the time. Hitting 28 means even Demogorgon would need a 20 to hit you.
    How long can demogorgon last against a crom war hammer wielded by a grand master high level kensai doing above 700 (base damage, I'm sure most bosses will resist some of it) damage in 10 seconds of kai?

    Ask me next month, I'll have some definitive answers.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Grond0 said:

    Borek said:

    Grond0 said:

    It's quite amusing doing the final battles against Melissan when everything needs a critical to hit you :D. I'm always surprised that the general view seems to be that AC makes no difference in ToB. Sure damage resistance, stoneskins and PFMW can work. However, it seems much more satisfying to me to weave through an attacking mob while weapons flail all around you, but rarely make contact.

    It's not that AC makes no difference, it's that the sacrifices required to get AC to the point where it's effective are extremely difficult and require sacrifices in other areas and/or specific classes. Another important point is that most of the challenging encounters tend to have something other than melee damage that causes the problems, i mean you can have AC -28 Vs Demogorgan but when he blaps you with Implosion and you get stunned for a round and then he and 3 Mariliths peel through your armour like a pack of monkeys going at a bunch of banana's then it's pointless, i'd rather not get imploded and stunned and instead hit 1 or 2 times in melee myself.

    The vast majority of classes have alternatives to AC, so it's a case of tailoring items and spells to match encounter requirements. The game is pretty well designed, tough encounters throughout do a great job of mixing up the tactics and abilities that will result in a victory, you can certainly monster through a lot of them with a super-high AC character, but at times it will fall short.
    I agree there are plenty of classes where trying to get to their minimum AC is not worth it as too much is sacrificed elsewhere for the limited benefits gained of reduced hits. That's not the case for swashbucklers, however - they can easily get to the AC cap. Against many enemies that's a good strategy, though certainly not all. Of course swashbucklers can also equip slightly different things and get to 100% MR, or use WW to blast down enemies quickly, or make themselves a pain in someone's arse with spike traps, or use stealth shots to avoid any retaliation, or use spells from scrolls, or magic effects from items. A high level swashbuckler is probably a more flexible class than any other in the game, but low AC gives them a good base to work from.
    Also see: Blades B)
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 1,055
    Related, I have never played a swashbuckler - loving liberal backstabs with my thieves - but am becoming motivated to give one a try after this and other recent posts. I like to focus on melee with my thieves, so it should fit that part of my play-style for sure. I know that many prefer F/Ts for power, but this kit just oozes flavor and I prefer single class fast leveling.

    I am thinking to give a dwarf a go and focus on dualing daggers.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    The swashbuckler I soloed the game with was pretty easy, about the easiest solo I've played. I was mostly an archer.
  • malachi151malachi151 Member Posts: 152
    Aerakar said:


    I am thinking to give a dwarf a go and focus on dualing daggers.

    Daggers are good for throwing, but the thing with daggers is that the +5 dagger has the ability to make you go invisible on hit, which is awesome for backstabbers, but useless for Swashbucklers.

    I'd say go with Scimitars so you can UAI for the Scarlet Ninja-to and Belm, and eventually the Scarlet Ninja-to with Spectra Brand. Also if you do run through BG1, you can get Drizzit's.
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 268
    Arunsun said:

    Khyron said:

    Isn't the demigorgon's thac0 at -8? If so, AC at 28 means he could hit only on a 20...

    It just seems to me that anything other than mages won't be able to touch the bastard.

    Might have to give it a try, even if just for giggles..

    That.. or just do an ultimate bhaalspawn run, remove lvl cap go solo f/m/t :P

    Demogorgon's base Thac0 is indeed -8 but then there's strength and Thac0 bonus from the weapon, and maybe some proficiencies... Demogorgon's Thac0 is actually around -20




    AC however can remain relevant even for late ToB.
    AC can reach -20 without the dex bonus or the single weapon bonus. Dex can give you up to -6. Single weapon bonus can give you -2 but it comes with too many downsides offensive-wise to really be relevant. So let's say -26. On top of that you may add specific AC. The girdles give you -3, your plate armor gives you -4 against slashing, -3 against piercing/missile, no protection against crushing. With an adapted belt you're down to -32 effective AC. If you get down to that only bosses will be able to hit you, once in a while

    The best way to make use of AC however is Soul Reaver +4, as it applies a stacking debuff to Thac0 that bypasses pretty much everything. A good but not necessarily toptier AC (Around -18-20) combined with Soul Reaver makes anyone unable to hit you within one round of Whirlwind. It's a very strong build but it's specific (Evil Two-Handed weapon wielder, fits)...

    Besides this particular weapon however AC isn't the best way to protect yourself in ToB, and you'll be much better off stacking damage reduction over AC.
    How do you know demogorgons thac0? Did you look at his character record by enabling cheat keys and bringing him into the group?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited November 2017
    Near Infinity lets you look up any critter's stats.
  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,742

    Here's Demogorgon's Stats from EEKeeper. His effective THAC0 without any weapon proficiency bonus is -15.
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 1,055
    edited November 2017
    malachi151 said:

    Aerakar said:


    I am thinking to give a dwarf a go and focus on dualing daggers.

    Daggers are good for throwing, but the thing with daggers is that the +5 dagger has the ability to make you go invisible on hit, which is awesome for backstabbers, but useless for Swashbucklers.

    I'd say go with Scimitars so you can UAI for the Scarlet Ninja-to and Belm, and eventually the Scarlet Ninja-to with Spectra Brand. Also if you do run through BG1, you can get Drizzit's.
    With an elf I would probably start with shortbow/scimitar (or short sword) and use a buckler in BG1 and dual-wield in SOD/BG2 (scim/sb ** at lv 1, lv 4 scim *, lv 8 TWF*, lv 12 TWF*, lv 16 TWF*).

    But with a dwarf, I like dagger of venom in BG1 and then the high APR throwing/melee daggers in BG2. This also lets me get a melee and ranged with one proficiency. Daggers are ok but not great until the strength tomb for a non-19 strength thief. I am thinking to go this way if I go with dwarf: dag** at lv 1, TWF* at lv 4 and 8. I could add scimitar or short sword at 12/16 in BG2 for Belm/Kundane and take the 3rd TWF at 20. With Boomerang and Belm/Kundane I can hit 4 APR already in early BG2.
    Post edited by Aerakar on
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 268
    Checking it now... you'd think demon royalty would have thicker skin. His physical resistances ar only 10%, and just under 300 HP. And that is almost all I can figure out from looking at the character info, ther than I'm quite sure my kensai can hit harder and twice as often as demogorgon.
  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,742
    Speaking of bosses with high THAC0 (by "high", I mean more negative) such as Demogorgon, if one can cast Slow, Power Word: Blind, and multiple Dooms, their Attack rolls can be lowered by {4 + 4 + 2*n = 10 or greater penalty}, which would make survival in physical combat with the help of high AC even more viable. But for that to happen one must first lower the boss's magic resistance and saving throws, which one would be doing anyway after all.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2017
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  • Rik_KirtaniyaRik_Kirtaniya Member Posts: 1,742
    edited November 2017
    chimaera said:

    Which means that about 1/3 of his attacks should land against an AC of -28, doesn't it? (someone please check the math, I'm terrible at it :neutral:)

    Assuming a THAC0 of -15 (it may be higher since I haven't considered weapon proficiency bonus), Demogorgon needs a Attack Roll of 13 to hit a person with AC of -28. That comes to (20-12)/20 or 8/20 or 2/5 or 40% success rate.
    chimaera said:

    Rik_Kirtaniya said:

    Speaking of bosses with high THAC0 (by "high", I mean more negative) such as Demogorgon, if one can cast Slow, Power Word: Blind, and multiple Dooms, their Attack rolls can be lowered by {4 + 4 + 2*n = 10 or greater penalty}, which would make survival in physical combat with the help of high AC even more viable. But for that to happen one must first lower the boss's magic resistance and saving throws, which one would be doing anyway after all.

    Demogorgon is immune to lower level spells, probably also to blindness, so you can't lower his thaco that way.
    It's very lucky for him that he is so, but this might just work on other tough enemies. :)
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