It's not going to happen no matter how much time you waste asking for it. So give up now and save your energy. If you don't want to buy the EE or can't afford the EE then just continue playing the existing vanilla version and leave Beamdog alone to focus on the more important task of adding new features to NWN-EE and enhancing it for modern hardware compatibility and modern operating systems.
It's not a waste of time asking for it. Beamdog have asked for feedback, and we are simply giving it. I just wish they simply stated it was more for business reasons they want to fully fracture the NWN community.
As has been said not everyone will get the EE immediately. So by putting in backwards support for NWN EE clients to connect to old servers, they are bridging that gap and keeping the community together to a degree during transition. People will still buy their version and be able to play on new and old servers that way. Beamdog will still get money, and people will have the option of playing on newer enhanced servers, or dropping onto maybe an old favourite that's still running the 1.69 server.
Mavrixio has clearly pointed out it's doable, heck he doesn't even have the source code and has made his 1.69 server NWN EE compatible so far. So it can't be that difficult for the devs with access to the code to implement it, or at least have basic support. I believe it's just more greed and short sightness on their part. It's beginning to show they don't give a damn about the community that has been around for the last 15 years. They simply want to severe the old NWN completely. Please say I'm wrong beamdog and have a change of mind.
I was really excited about this NWN EE, but now not so much. I'm having minor issues with the old NWN hardware compatibility wise, but I'll suffer through that if it means I can still play on my old server. As I stated before, I'd happily throw $20 dollars Beamdog's way simply for better hardware support on modern systems while being able to play on 1.69 still also as an option.
Honestly, this was my major concern when this was announced. I honestly thought that it wouldn't be possible to make it compatible, but if Mavrixio managed to do it, that's out of the question now.
So, should they do it? While I understand that they prefer people to change to new servers, I think that they should try to nurture the comunity.
How about supporting it "unnoficially", meaning... Adaptation patch (either for clients or servers) allowed and even hosted on the forums, but not as an oficial feature, so that if there is any kind of bug/problem they don't have the urge to focus on that?
I mean, I would like to have the feature, but is also true that I don't want them to spend too much time on it. Cause I'll rather have other things, I'll rather have them focusing on improving the EE...After all, I think that most servers will manage to upgrade soon enought if they want, and Sinfair case is a bit special. (I mean, I think that most servers don't have so manny things added, right...? And that's amazing, but the development can focus on that server alone)
For all the people wondering why 1.69 might still be preferable to 1.7x even if we disregard the cost:
It has nothing to do with not wanting to upgrade Windows or our computers. Nwn has been around for a long time and a lot of the functionality that nwnee is promising has already been implemented in 1.69 and in fact far far more then that.
Being familiar with Sinfar's modifications for example - nwnee would be a significant downgrade. It would be hard to understate how much functionality would be lost. When Mavrixio mentions "500+ functions" that is sort of understating it. A single example would be being able to retexture, colour, scale, rotate or position placeables, vfx, and body model parts on the fly in game. This completely changes how areas are built - need a placeable? Simply modify an existing one on the fly. Want to customize your character appearance? Build it entirely from scratch by picking out the hairstyle, facial hair, ears, eyes, hats, etc. I've seen worse customization options in modern games.
Of course long term it would be great to have a best of both worlds but considering the scope of things that would have to be adapted to nwnee that is a long ways off and some sort of interim solution could go a long way.
personally trying to use sinfar as an example of the norm is a bad choice. what will you do when your jury rigged systems crash? When SoU and HotU came out, all PW had to upgrade. Same as here. If you read past the first few posts and see the depth of whats coming and not what is just in hand now for the first open beta, you would be adapting and readying your systems for updating. If you choose to stay in the past with your toasters with foil antennae, then so be it. Its your choice to not be included in the future.
It's not a waste of time asking for it. Beamdog have asked for feedback, and we are simply giving it. I just wish they simply stated it was more for business reasons they want to fully fracture the NWN community.
As has been said not everyone will get the EE immediately. So by putting in backwards support for NWN EE clients to connect to old servers, they are bridging that gap and keeping the community together to a degree during transition. People will still buy their version and be able to play on new and old servers that way. Beamdog will still get money, and people will have the option of playing on newer enhanced servers, or dropping onto maybe an old favourite that's still running the 1.69 server.
Mavrixio has clearly pointed out it's doable, heck he doesn't even have the source code and has made his 1.69 server NWN EE compatible so far. So it can't be that difficult for the devs with access to the code to implement it, or at least have basic support. I believe it's just more greed and short sightness on their part. It's beginning to show they don't give a damn about the community that has been around for the last 15 years. They simply want to severe the old NWN completely. Please say I'm wrong beamdog and have a change of mind.
I was really excited about this NWN EE, but now not so much. I'm having minor issues with the old NWN hardware compatibility wise, but I'll suffer through that if it means I can still play on my old server. As I stated before, I'd happily throw $20 dollars Beamdog's way simply for better hardware support on modern systems while being able to play on 1.69 still also as an option.
he can patch for a beta, thats great. doubtful he can do the same when the full game is released with all the planned upgrades and changes in place.
No servers stayed behind in the SoU and HotU rollouts or they got left in the dust. History teaches to not ignore the past. Sure you may keep your little group together, but everyone who moves forward will be riding the new bike while your huffy keeps breaking down.
It's not a waste of time asking for it. Beamdog have asked for feedback, and we are simply giving it. I just wish they simply stated it was more for business reasons they want to fully fracture the NWN community.
As has been said not everyone will get the EE immediately. So by putting in backwards support for NWN EE clients to connect to old servers, they are bridging that gap and keeping the community together to a degree during transition. People will still buy their version and be able to play on new and old servers that way. Beamdog will still get money, and people will have the option of playing on newer enhanced servers, or dropping onto maybe an old favourite that's still running the 1.69 server.
Mavrixio has clearly pointed out it's doable, heck he doesn't even have the source code and has made his 1.69 server NWN EE compatible so far. So it can't be that difficult for the devs with access to the code to implement it, or at least have basic support. I believe it's just more greed and short sightness on their part. It's beginning to show they don't give a damn about the community that has been around for the last 15 years. They simply want to severe the old NWN completely. Please say I'm wrong beamdog and have a change of mind.
I was really excited about this NWN EE, but now not so much. I'm having minor issues with the old NWN hardware compatibility wise, but I'll suffer through that if it means I can still play on my old server. As I stated before, I'd happily throw $20 dollars Beamdog's way simply for better hardware support on modern systems while being able to play on 1.69 still also as an option.
oh and maybe Mavrixio should say why Beamdog told him no.
For all the people wondering why 1.69 might still be preferable to 1.7x even if we disregard the cost:
It has nothing to do with not wanting to upgrade Windows or our computers. Nwn has been around for a long time and a lot of the functionality that nwnee is promising has already been implemented in 1.69 and in fact far far more then that.
Being familiar with Sinfar's modifications for example - nwnee would be a significant downgrade. It would be hard to understate how much functionality would be lost. When Mavrixio mentions "500+ functions" that is sort of understating it. A single example would be being able to retexture, colour, scale, rotate or position placeables, vfx, and body model parts on the fly in game. This completely changes how areas are built - need a placeable? Simply modify an existing one on the fly. Want to customize your character appearance? Build it entirely from scratch by picking out the hairstyle, facial hair, ears, eyes, hats, etc. I've seen worse customization options in modern games.
Of course long term it would be great to have a best of both worlds but considering the scope of things that would have to be adapted to nwnee that is a long ways off and some sort of interim solution could go a long way.
personally trying to use sinfar as an example of the norm is a bad choice. what will you do when your jury rigged systems crash? When SoU and HotU came out, all PW had to upgrade. Same as here. If you read past the first few posts and see the depth of whats coming and not what is just in hand now for the first open beta, you would be adapting and readying your systems for updating. If you choose to stay in the past with your toasters with foil antennae, then so be it. Its your choice to not be included in the future.
Actually on your example of when the expansion packs came out - I distinctly recall that BioWare maintained backwards compatibility which is what is being asked for here.
Eventually the entire community upgraded to the latest expansion but there was always a transition period because different servers have different setups and needed varying amounts of time to switch. The backwards compatibility made it a much more graceful transition. What's being proposed here will mean that the nwn community will be fractured and remain that way for many months or possibly over a year while things are updated.
Knowing very well the game engine, having made my own client extended that already do what you plan (scaling, coloring) and more, It is nothing to keep the 1.69 servers support.
Sinfar 1.69 server is already compatible with NWN:EE all I ask is tips when you add data to the protocol, at least no volontary changes to make it impossible for me to keep the support.
No reply after that, I wonder if he got speechless because someone told him like niv said: "It is not feasible, this rendering rework and this and that ... can't be compatible with the 1.69 nwserver", which is obviously false.
personally trying to use sinfar as an example of the norm is a bad choice. what will you do when your jury rigged systems crash? When SoU and HotU came out, all PW had to upgrade. Same as here. If you read past the first few posts and see the depth of whats coming and not what is just in hand now for the first open beta, you would be adapting and readying your systems for updating. If you choose to stay in the past with your toasters with foil antennae, then so be it. Its your choice to not be included in the future.
Question 1: Who are you?
Question 2: Can you code -anything-? If you can't why are talking to us who actually can fully develop in C environments and do the -same things- these developers can do as though you're on equal level? The only advantage they have here is the actual source code.
I may not like Sinfar's aspect, but I can respect Mavrixio is more than qualified to determine what is and isn't doable. Me and Mavrixio are TRYING to meet these guys halfway and actually support them, rather than resorting to forcing it to work(and there is many methods to force it....). Why do game companies keep doing this to nwn?
Wouldn't it make tremendously more business sense to have a -unified- audience to purchase your game? No one to bad mouth it, no one to run anti to your goals, no resistance.
NWN2 refused to make any concessions for NWN1 and it suffered for it. The game was a failure and never became what NWN1 was! NWN2 may have had good reviews, but the end result is it's multiplayer is STILL half of what NWN1 is!
As someone with a degree in business and a minor in computer science.... NOTHING I'VE LEARNED MAKES SENSE HERE.
The business part of me can't understand why they want to not only limit their audience outside of it's normal demographic(IE people who like playing old games and people who need games to run on their outdated toasters, neither of which are likely to run windows 7 unless they had to), but simultaneously they ignored literally all 3 of the problems which burned NWN1 in it's reviews back when it was actually new...
The computer science part knows they are lying.
It's so off the walls insane that it feels like they saw the game is STILL alive 15 years later and thought "man fuck these people enjoying their game that they aren't paying more money into".
As someone with a degree in business and a minor in computer science.... NOTHING I'VE LEARNED MAKES SENSE HERE
Enough of the accusations that Beamdog are lying. It's just utterly disrespectful and doesn't belong in this community. Any person with any minor qualification in programming knows that maintaining backward compatibility is simply not practical for the future of the game. I have over 30 years of experience developing but I'm not going to have an ego that pretends I understand the intricacies of the NWN sourcecode nor am I going to challenge the technical changes Beamdog has made to the authentication layer and other parts of the server and client. So stop flogging a dead horse and just leave it alone now.
The game is NOT ever going to be backward compatible no matter how many degrees you want to tell us you have.
Any person with any minor qualification in programming knows that maintaining backward compatibility is simply not practical for the future of the game. I have over 30 years of experience developing but I'm not going to have an ego that pretends I understand the intricacies of the NWN sourcecode
That would be true if: - They didn't want to remain backward compatible with about everything: modules, custom content, even NWNX.... except 1.69 servers? - They wanted to touch "big" things like the graphic or combat engine.
we made a statement regarding support - repeatedly, in multiple communication channels - and twisting the matter around until the peg fits the hole will not change reality.
But, to expand: You are conflating two very different things here: a) that WE make it work, and b) that YOU make it work.
For a) [which this thread is about in essence]
- Providing 1.69 compatibility would be a ongoing developer cost for Beamdog, no matter how often it is claimed that "someone else" will do it.
- Anyone who has worked on a sizeable codebase with a budget and schedule attached will understand the reasoning behind this being a no-show.
- More importantly: Designing future changes around the fact that we promised 1.69 to keep working (even for a while) is not something we want to do, as Trent has said on Twitter to you as well. Keep in mind that NWN:EE is right now the very first public build, not the last, and there will be much more impacting changes than adding a flag here and there.
- Previous releases, both patch and expansion, worked exactly the same, for the very same reason.
- Going to "a higher authority" will not change the message, as you have now seen.
- As said repeatedly, you are very welcome to to stay on 1.69, if NWN:EE is not going to be a fit for you, for however long you want. There is no need to start a a fire about "splitting the community" or "destroying the game for everyone". If you look around closely, the community is - for the overwhelming majority - actually enjoying the fresh wind that EE brings. If you do not believe that we will do a good job of it, simply wait and see.
For b)
- You are free to attempt creating intercompatibility in this and future builds, at no guarantee of support from Beamdogs side. Future changes will potentially be harder to reverse-engineer than what this first build offers; but again, you do you and no one here will begrudge you.
- As an aside; if NWN:EE clients connect to your server, they will lose all your enhanced features, resulting in a degraded experience for them even if you manage to make all future NWN:EE additions work. Though I think you're well aware of that fact, and just want to grab the players! If you check over the fence, surely you will see that this is not something that is particularily relevant to our interests, as it ruins the NWN:EE experience for those players.
Finally, to everyone and no one in particular: Please keep it civil, do not let it slide further into thinly veiled insults, or we'll have to close this thread.
Wanting to grab players has never been something I care about, but I don't want to lose the people I've played with over something as silly as this. Especially when I actually like a lot of what is being done.
What is it that makes the NWN:EE client not usable on Windows XP or Vista? If I recall only the nwserver.exe is receiving the 64 bit enhancement. So for their to be a lack of compatibility at that level there is either windows dependencies that are not available for XP/Vista or some kind of bizarre thread interaction that is only available for Windows 7 or higher.
To further explain, I would gladly -buy- the games, but some of my players do not have windows 7 computers. Me and Mav have -entirely- different problems, but equally based on compatibility. I want to bring my community with me into your game, not steal others back to 1.69
Edit = As an aside, maintaining backwards compatibility is definitely hard... But disabling aspects for those who haven't upgraded is not... I have a lot of experience in doing these exact things and all it takes is a version check right at the beginning of the execution and bypass to null if the receiving end does not have the version required. Doing so you disable the aspects they can't run(or you don't want them to run) and they still have a functioning product.... Just not with all the bells and whistles.
I can't speak for NWNs source code, but I've worked in many game engines that all worked when disabling even core aspects from a single line version check. That's often how invulnerability cheats in games work.... The damage system is bypassed from a single flag.
Though I think you're well aware of that fact, and just want to grab the players! If you check over the fence, surely you will see that this is not something that is particularily relevant to our interests, as it ruins the NWN:EE experience for those players.
Finally, to everyone and no one in particular: Please keep it civil, do not let it slide further into thinly veiled insults, or we'll have to close this thread.
Wow... Just wow. I'm sorry but you threaten to lock the thread, to keep it civil, to refrain from thinly veiled insults and you insult people who let it be known they'd simply like some measure of backward compatibility by saying they're here to steal players. Honestly if this is the attitude of the dev team, I'm done. You won't be seeing a cent from me. So much for listening to the fans and keeping backward compatibility, but only when it suits beamdog.
To me and many others that I play with, the enjoyment of playing NWN has never been about the graphics/visuals.
It's always been about the community, pvp and building, which have all been kept alive over a decade down the track from the initial release.
If I was going to pay money to Beamdog, it would not be for a graphics overhaul. It would be for the ability to play the same 1.69 server with all its MANY features on modern systems with the potential to attract new and old players to the community so that they can enjoy these features also.
Not being able to play the servers on 1.69 with their wealth of features and established player bases would make the option of transitioning to EE obsolete.
I feel that Beamdog will miss the mark if they do not offer a compatibility solution, or actively try to obfuscate the solution for members of this community who would be willing to donate their time and expertise to make 1.69 compatible with EE themselves.
1) EE might be easier to modify Dev side, but as of yet it the capabilities of the client are inferior to the several PW mods, most notably probably Sinfar. Character scaling, individual part recolors? Nice for sure, but Mavrixio did that several years ago. Though not all servers lHAVE had all of the advancements he made on theirs, they had /have several similar features which as of yet makes their incarnations of 1.69 more advanced than EE.
2) The previous EE editions typically have led to the older versions of games like BG being removed. Perhaps this might "force" players to migrate to the new game cutting off access to 1.69, but there are online venues for procuring the older versions of now removed games.
I've not seen anything from EE yet short of more modern driver capability. Which is great for some of the playerbase sure, but not an issue most of us face.
I think to warrant no backwards compatability there would need to be some fairly major new additions. From a user/gameplay perspective there are 1.69 venues with more features than 1.74. I'm hoping more will be seen during development.
I mean, to ignore the PW's for a moment; anyone remember the Player Resource Consortium expansion pack? http://www.athasreborn.com/prc/manual/ . 1.69 with this vs EE?
EE is not that expensive, if it's only visual improvement i agree that it should keep full compatibility with existing servers.
But if they are open to update NWN with new features... I will gladly switch to new server to go back at the time when NWN get regular updates (and if we can have amazing updates like in Bioware time). And they already show great commitment to keep compatibility with existing community content.
If we get functionnality updates not switching would be like staying without addons and an old server version at the time of Bioware...
< The game is NOT ever going to be backward compatible no matter how many degrees you want to tell us you have.
But do you really believe that there may be some young admins who are going to do all that we've done in ten years? This version of my server started in 2013, there are hundreds of custom scripts and i use nwnx for everything i can. You really think i can restart a new server? Do you really think my 20 favorite players can migrate to nwnee giving up on my server? Do you really think that the NEW players who buy nwnee can have fun playing in multiplayer without the pw servers that we are now online? nwnee will end up as nwn2, because the reason why nwn1 is still playing beamdog proves it has not yet understood. Me and many others admins have dreamed for a moment to have new players, but only for a moment :-(
What I'm not understanding is why Beamdog, quite understandably, wanting freedom to change the client / server protocol going forward, necessarily precludes NWN:EE client / NWN 1.69 server compatibility. The reason for not wanting to do this seems to be down to ongoing support issues, but as far as I can see it, this is a one time cost, and a not particularly high one.
What it seems to come down to is for the client to detect the version of the server and if it is a 1.69 server, to make and expect a 1.69 compatible request / response. The code to implement the "on wire" protocol is by definition already available in the 1.69 client codebase and anything that the client tries to do that is not already implemented in that codebase should in effect be a no-op.
As it is, I can see big problems ahead for PW communities with the default position being that players will have to use the 1.69 client if they want to play. From the point of view of people running a server, they can port their module to the NWN:EE server and risk losing a large number of their existing player base, or they can run both a 1.69 and an NWN:EE server and splinter their existing player base. Neither option is very attractive.
I really appreciate Beamdog trying to breathe new life into this game, and hope that they are rewarded with financial success. Maybe we're all just overestimating the proportion of the existing and potential player base for who multiplayer is important and that Beamdog have better data on this than we do?
< The game is NOT ever going to be backward compatible no matter how many degrees you want to tell us you have.
But do you really believe that there may be some young admins who are going to do all that we've done in ten years? This version of my server started in 2013, there are hundreds of custom scripts and i use nwnx for everything i can. You really think i can restart a new server? Do you really think my 20 favorite players can migrate to nwnee giving up on my server? Do you really think that the NEW players who buy nwnee can have fun playing in multiplayer without the pw servers that we are now online? nwnee will end up as nwn2, because the reason why nwn1 is still playing beamdog proves it has not yet understood. Me and many others admins have dreamed for a moment to have new players, but only for a moment :-(
Ali
Anybody not upgrading to NWN:EE will be just through pure stubbornness. It's the cost of a couple of a pizza's and a drink.
Stop complaining and just move your server to EE and your players will follow.
Anybody not upgrading to NWN:EE will be just through pure stubbornness. It's the cost of a couple of a pizza's and a drink.
Stop complaining and just move your server to EE and your players will follow.
This WOULD be true and I have the money I could just buy it all for them as a Christmas present, but they made the NWN:EE client incompatible for anything lower than Windows 7 and THAT WILL DESTROY 20-30% of nwns playerbase going into NWN:EE.
This didn't work for nwn2(the hard forcing of drastic requirements, not the Windows 7 part) why the hell would it work now? So many people talking about abstracts, but yet ignoring that there is a TANGIBLY VIEWABLE example that EXISTS. NWN2 never took off, it was burdened at launch and remains burdened to this day.
The end result of this is that the number of people playing nwn will go down. Some get abandoned, others won't have the drive to update everything to function correctly, and what would of been the point of that? Did Beamdog make more money by slashing what is left of the game?
We don't need the nwserver.exe executable to be windows xp/vista friendly, that's on the dev to do. Just allow people who are playing the game on their old computers to continue playing the game they love. Please make the nwmain.exe have a xp/vista supported version.
The reason people are here for this now is because we were THERE when nwn2 came out and caused massive damage. Both games went drastically down because of it and most people didn't just stick it out with nwn2 or go back to nwn1, they either just stopped playing games or played something else.
Anybody not upgrading to NWN:EE will be just through pure stubbornness. It's the cost of a couple of a pizza's and a drink.
Stop complaining and just move your server to EE and your players will follow.
This WOULD be true and I have the money I could just buy it all for them as a Christmas present, but they made the NWN:EE client incompatible for anything lower than Windows 7 and THAT WILL DESTROY 20-30% of nwns playerbase going into NWN:EE.
I have no sympathy for anyone using Windows XP or Vista. They are a threat to your security if nothing else! And your 20-30% figure seems massively exaggerated.
The people playing NWN is probably a lot a larger than you think and all the people moaning seem to be owners of Persistent Servers. I have played NWN since 2002 and have NEVER played on a Persistent Server and have no interest in doing so. They aren't the be-all and end-all of Neverwinter Nights.
100% backwards compatibility with 1.69 would require us to implement some form of fallback handling for every case where a new feature should exist in the code and may not exist in 1.69. This would limit the size and scope of features we can add to the code going forward. We plan on keeping the effort to move content forward to the EE platform from the 1.69 as simple as possible, but a migration will be required as the code moves forward. There really is no other option if we want to make substantive steps forward in what the game is capable of.
100% backwards compatibility with 1.69 would require us to implement some form of fallback handling for every case where a new feature should exist in the code and may not exist in 1.69. This would limit the size and scope of features we can add to the code going forward. We plan on keeping the effort to move content forward to the EE platform from the 1.69 as simple as possible, but a migration will be required as the code moves forward. There really is no other option if we want to make substantive steps forward in what the game is capable of.
-Trent
Thank you for the honest and respectable response. I only wish all devs could be so logical and neutral. I had known the fallback handling would be the case, but I seem to have underestimated the scope of what you are actually doing with the game.
I have no sympathy for anyone using Windows XP or Vista. They are a threat to your security if nothing else! And your 20-30% figure seems massively exaggerated.
The people playing NWN is probably a lot a larger than you think and all the people moaning seem to be owners of Persistent Servers. I have played NWN since 2002 and have NEVER played on a Persistent Server and have no interest in doing so. They aren't the be-all and end-all of Neverwinter Nights.
The 20-30% figure was obtained by asking all of my players what system they currently use, then going to my alt account on Arelith and asking them, then going to Sinfar on my alt account and asking them. From there the average number of players using either of those operating systems for every server was between 20 and 30%. You may deal with abstract information, I've only dealt with facts.
Conversely, only 1.7% of all visitors to neverwintervault.org (and there are surprisingly many) are on XP (Edit: Vista is 0.8%). Windows 10 is the biggest chunk with over 44%. The vault fairly content-creator orientied, but sees a lot of organic traffic from the web.
The people playing NWN is probably a lot a larger than you think and all the people moaning seem to be owners of Persistent Servers. I have played NWN since 2002 and have NEVER played on a Persistent Server and have no interest in doing so. They aren't the be-all and end-all of Neverwinter Nights.
Not all of us are moaning. My PW has been in existence since 2004, and I'm still making plans to move it to NWN:EE once it's released. Players who don't follow us will miss out, but I'll be glad to welcome all the new NWN:EE players to my server as well as my old players who come along for the ride.
I completely understand where the developers are coming from. I'm a software developer myself. I know exactly why they are taking the path they're taking. It's the price of progress and it unchains the shackles that would keep them from following the development path they want to follow. It's not the answer some people want, but that's just the stark reality.
I completely understand where the developers are coming from. I'm a software developer myself. I know exactly why they are taking the path they're taking. It's the price of progress and it unchains the shackles that would keep them from following the development path they want to follow. It's not the answer some people want, but that's just the stark reality.
I agree with this 100%. I wanted to ensure the development team knows there are those that support and understand their decisions. Our server has been and is still running on 1.69 but we will move the world forward with NWN:EE and rekindle the player base with some new content in a familiar setting and embrace the change.
I guess 1.69 compatibility is a must, otherwise NWN EE risks to be a flop.
In my opinion is a very important features that you should consider, much more than other 500+ functionalities that somehow we can already implement by ourself in 1.69.
if you want to make this NWN EE great, than you have to put a lot of effort on 1.69 compatibility
Comments
As has been said not everyone will get the EE immediately. So by putting in backwards support for NWN EE clients to connect to old servers, they are bridging that gap and keeping the community together to a degree during transition. People will still buy their version and be able to play on new and old servers that way. Beamdog will still get money, and people will have the option of playing on newer enhanced servers, or dropping onto maybe an old favourite that's still running the 1.69 server.
Mavrixio has clearly pointed out it's doable, heck he doesn't even have the source code and has made his 1.69 server NWN EE compatible so far. So it can't be that difficult for the devs with access to the code to implement it, or at least have basic support. I believe it's just more greed and short sightness on their part. It's beginning to show they don't give a damn about the community that has been around for the last 15 years. They simply want to severe the old NWN completely. Please say I'm wrong beamdog and have a change of mind.
I was really excited about this NWN EE, but now not so much. I'm having minor issues with the old NWN hardware compatibility wise, but I'll suffer through that if it means I can still play on my old server. As I stated before, I'd happily throw $20 dollars Beamdog's way simply for better hardware support on modern systems while being able to play on 1.69 still also as an option.
So, should they do it? While I understand that they prefer people to change to new servers, I think that they should try to nurture the comunity.
How about supporting it "unnoficially", meaning... Adaptation patch (either for clients or servers) allowed and even hosted on the forums, but not as an oficial feature, so that if there is any kind of bug/problem they don't have the urge to focus on that?
I mean, I would like to have the feature, but is also true that I don't want them to spend too much time on it. Cause I'll rather have other things, I'll rather have them focusing on improving the EE...After all, I think that most servers will manage to upgrade soon enought if they want, and Sinfair case is a bit special. (I mean, I think that most servers don't have so manny things added, right...? And that's amazing, but the development can focus on that server alone)
When SoU and HotU came out, all PW had to upgrade. Same as here. If you read past the first few posts and see the depth of whats coming and not what is just in hand now for the first open beta, you would be adapting and readying your systems for updating.
If you choose to stay in the past with your toasters with foil antennae, then so be it. Its your choice to not be included in the future.
No servers stayed behind in the SoU and HotU rollouts or they got left in the dust. History teaches to not ignore the past. Sure you may keep your little group together, but everyone who moves forward will be riding the new bike while your huffy keeps breaking down.
Eventually the entire community upgraded to the latest expansion but there was always a transition period because different servers have different setups and needed varying amounts of time to switch. The backwards compatibility made it a much more graceful transition. What's being proposed here will mean that the nwn community will be fractured and remain that way for many months or possibly over a year while things are updated.
Basically: No reply after that, I wonder if he got speechless because someone told him like niv said: "It is not feasible, this rendering rework and this and that ... can't be compatible with the 1.69 nwserver", which is obviously false.
Question 2: Can you code -anything-? If you can't why are talking to us who actually can fully develop in C environments and do the -same things- these developers can do as though you're on equal level? The only advantage they have here is the actual source code.
I may not like Sinfar's aspect, but I can respect Mavrixio is more than qualified to determine what is and isn't doable. Me and Mavrixio are TRYING to meet these guys halfway and actually support them, rather than resorting to forcing it to work(and there is many methods to force it....). Why do game companies keep doing this to nwn?
Wouldn't it make tremendously more business sense to have a -unified- audience to purchase your game? No one to bad mouth it, no one to run anti to your goals, no resistance.
NWN2 refused to make any concessions for NWN1 and it suffered for it. The game was a failure and never became what NWN1 was! NWN2 may have had good reviews, but the end result is it's multiplayer is STILL half of what NWN1 is!
As someone with a degree in business and a minor in computer science.... NOTHING I'VE LEARNED MAKES SENSE HERE.
The business part of me can't understand why they want to not only limit their audience outside of it's normal demographic(IE people who like playing old games and people who need games to run on their outdated toasters, neither of which are likely to run windows 7 unless they had to), but simultaneously they ignored literally all 3 of the problems which burned NWN1 in it's reviews back when it was actually new...
The computer science part knows they are lying.
It's so off the walls insane that it feels like they saw the game is STILL alive 15 years later and thought "man fuck these people enjoying their game that they aren't paying more money into".
The game is NOT ever going to be backward compatible no matter how many degrees you want to tell us you have.
- They didn't want to remain backward compatible with about everything: modules, custom content, even NWNX.... except 1.69 servers?
- They wanted to touch "big" things like the graphic or combat engine.
we made a statement regarding support - repeatedly, in multiple communication channels - and twisting the matter around until the peg fits the hole will not change reality.
But, to expand: You are conflating two very different things here: a) that WE make it work, and b) that YOU make it work.
For a) [which this thread is about in essence]
- Providing 1.69 compatibility would be a ongoing developer cost for Beamdog, no matter how often it is claimed that "someone else" will do it.
- Anyone who has worked on a sizeable codebase with a budget and schedule attached will understand the reasoning behind this being a no-show.
- More importantly: Designing future changes around the fact that we promised 1.69 to keep working (even for a while) is not something we want to do, as Trent has said on Twitter to you as well. Keep in mind that NWN:EE is right now the very first public build, not the last, and there will be much more impacting changes than adding a flag here and there.
- Previous releases, both patch and expansion, worked exactly the same, for the very same reason.
- Going to "a higher authority" will not change the message, as you have now seen.
- As said repeatedly, you are very welcome to to stay on 1.69, if NWN:EE is not going to be a fit for you, for however long you want. There is no need to start a a fire about "splitting the community" or "destroying the game for everyone". If you look around closely, the community is - for the overwhelming majority - actually enjoying the fresh wind that EE brings. If you do not believe that we will do a good job of it, simply wait and see.
For b)
- You are free to attempt creating intercompatibility in this and future builds, at no guarantee of support from Beamdogs side. Future changes will potentially be harder to reverse-engineer than what this first build offers; but again, you do you and no one here will begrudge you.
- As an aside; if NWN:EE clients connect to your server, they will lose all your enhanced features, resulting in a degraded experience for them even if you manage to make all future NWN:EE additions work. Though I think you're well aware of that fact, and just want to grab the players! If you check over the fence, surely you will see that this is not something that is particularily relevant to our interests, as it ruins the NWN:EE experience for those players.
Finally, to everyone and no one in particular: Please keep it civil, do not let it slide further into thinly veiled insults, or we'll have to close this thread.
What is it that makes the NWN:EE client not usable on Windows XP or Vista? If I recall only the nwserver.exe is receiving the 64 bit enhancement. So for their to be a lack of compatibility at that level there is either windows dependencies that are not available for XP/Vista or some kind of bizarre thread interaction that is only available for Windows 7 or higher.
To further explain, I would gladly -buy- the games, but some of my players do not have windows 7 computers. Me and Mav have -entirely- different problems, but equally based on compatibility. I want to bring my community with me into your game, not steal others back to 1.69
Edit = As an aside, maintaining backwards compatibility is definitely hard... But disabling aspects for those who haven't upgraded is not... I have a lot of experience in doing these exact things and all it takes is a version check right at the beginning of the execution and bypass to null if the receiving end does not have the version required. Doing so you disable the aspects they can't run(or you don't want them to run) and they still have a functioning product.... Just not with all the bells and whistles.
I can't speak for NWNs source code, but I've worked in many game engines that all worked when disabling even core aspects from a single line version check. That's often how invulnerability cheats in games work.... The damage system is bypassed from a single flag.
It's always been about the community, pvp and building, which have all been kept alive over a decade down the track from the initial release.
If I was going to pay money to Beamdog, it would not be for a graphics overhaul. It would be for the ability to play the same 1.69 server with all its MANY features on modern systems with the potential to attract new and old players to the community so that they can enjoy these features also.
Not being able to play the servers on 1.69 with their wealth of features and established player bases would make the option of transitioning to EE obsolete.
I feel that Beamdog will miss the mark if they do not offer a compatibility solution, or actively try to obfuscate the solution for members of this community who would be willing to donate their time and expertise to make 1.69 compatible with EE themselves.
1) EE might be easier to modify Dev side, but as of yet it the capabilities of the client are inferior to the several PW mods, most notably probably Sinfar. Character scaling, individual part recolors? Nice for sure, but Mavrixio did that several years ago. Though not all servers lHAVE had all of the advancements he made on theirs, they had /have several similar features which as of yet makes their incarnations of 1.69 more advanced than EE.
2) The previous EE editions typically have led to the older versions of games like BG being removed. Perhaps this might "force" players to migrate to the new game cutting off access to 1.69, but there are online venues for procuring the older versions of now removed games.
I've not seen anything from EE yet short of more modern driver capability. Which is great for some of the playerbase sure, but not an issue most of us face.
I think to warrant no backwards compatability there would need to be some fairly major new additions. From a user/gameplay perspective there are 1.69 venues with more features than 1.74. I'm hoping more will be seen during development.
I mean, to ignore the PW's for a moment; anyone remember the Player Resource Consortium expansion pack? http://www.athasreborn.com/prc/manual/ . 1.69 with this vs EE?
Anyone remember PRC? http://www.athasreborn.com/prc/manual/
1.69 already has an implementation of the entire 3.5 D&D Canon. Will EE have anything to match?
But if they are open to update NWN with new features... I will gladly switch to new server to go back at the time when NWN get regular updates (and if we can have amazing updates like in Bioware time).
And they already show great commitment to keep compatibility with existing community content.
If we get functionnality updates not switching would be like staying without addons and an old server version at the time of Bioware...
nwnee will end up as nwn2, because the reason why nwn1 is still playing beamdog proves it has not yet understood.
Me and many others admins have dreamed for a moment to have new players, but only for a moment :-(
Ali
What it seems to come down to is for the client to detect the version of the server and if it is a 1.69 server, to make and expect a 1.69 compatible request / response. The code to implement the "on wire" protocol is by definition already available in the 1.69 client codebase and anything that the client tries to do that is not already implemented in that codebase should in effect be a no-op.
As it is, I can see big problems ahead for PW communities with the default position being that players will have to use the 1.69 client if they want to play. From the point of view of people running a server, they can port their module to the NWN:EE server and risk losing a large number of their existing player base, or they can run both a 1.69 and an NWN:EE server and splinter their existing player base. Neither option is very attractive.
I really appreciate Beamdog trying to breathe new life into this game, and hope that they are rewarded with financial success. Maybe we're all just overestimating the proportion of the existing and potential player base for who multiplayer is important and that Beamdog have better data on this than we do?
Stop complaining and just move your server to EE and your players will follow.
This didn't work for nwn2(the hard forcing of drastic requirements, not the Windows 7 part) why the hell would it work now? So many people talking about abstracts, but yet ignoring that there is a TANGIBLY VIEWABLE example that EXISTS. NWN2 never took off, it was burdened at launch and remains burdened to this day.
The end result of this is that the number of people playing nwn will go down. Some get abandoned, others won't have the drive to update everything to function correctly, and what would of been the point of that? Did Beamdog make more money by slashing what is left of the game?
We don't need the nwserver.exe executable to be windows xp/vista friendly, that's on the dev to do. Just allow people who are playing the game on their old computers to continue playing the game they love. Please make the nwmain.exe have a xp/vista supported version.
The reason people are here for this now is because we were THERE when nwn2 came out and caused massive damage. Both games went drastically down because of it and most people didn't just stick it out with nwn2 or go back to nwn1, they either just stopped playing games or played something else.
The people playing NWN is probably a lot a larger than you think and all the people moaning seem to be owners of Persistent Servers. I have played NWN since 2002 and have NEVER played on a Persistent Server and have no interest in doing so. They aren't the be-all and end-all of Neverwinter Nights.
-Trent
Removing my involvement in this thread. The 20-30% figure was obtained by asking all of my players what system they currently use, then going to my alt account on Arelith and asking them, then going to Sinfar on my alt account and asking them. From there the average number of players using either of those operating systems for every server was between 20 and 30%. You may deal with abstract information, I've only dealt with facts.
I completely understand where the developers are coming from. I'm a software developer myself. I know exactly why they are taking the path they're taking. It's the price of progress and it unchains the shackles that would keep them from following the development path they want to follow. It's not the answer some people want, but that's just the stark reality.
In my opinion is a very important features that you should consider, much more than other 500+ functionalities that somehow we can already implement by ourself in 1.69.
if you want to make this NWN EE great, than you have to put a lot of effort on 1.69 compatibility