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Essential Feature: EITHER EE able to connect to 1.69 servers OR 1.69 able to connect to EE servers

13

Comments

  • ZwerkulesZwerkules Member Posts: 88


    Because NWN:EE requires Windows 7 or higher and MANY people are old and set in their ways on using older operating systems(especially the case of windows XP). You are literally telling them they can't play the game anymore.
    It's not a case of money(they would gladly buy NWN:EE), it's a case of NWN:EE is making their actual computers outdated. It's a lot to ask of them to buy an entire new computer just to keep playing.

    If a server uses NWN 1.69 and those old people are playing on that server, why would they need a new computer that can run 1.74? They already have 1.69 and can continue playing on that server. As long as the server doesn't upgrade to 1.74 I don't really see a problem here at all.

    BelleSorciere
  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50

    The majority of people who play NWN, even in this day and age, are people who download modules and play them in single or multiplayer mode, not the people who play on PWs. I don't think lack of 1.69 compatibility is going to be the game breaker you think it will be.

    That's wild, how does someone new to this game even know the nwvault exists? Back when I first played I didn't even know there was a way to unlock my voiceset for 6 months. I know this because I still have my original characters with the old timestamps....

  • RAM021RAM021 Member Posts: 393

    What is it that makes the NWN:EE client not usable on Windows XP or Vista?

    We are running NWN:EE on Vista as we speak...

  • SherincallSherincall Member Posts: 375
    RAM021 said:

    What is it that makes the NWN:EE client not usable on Windows XP or Vista?

    We are running NWN:EE on Vista as we speak...
    That's not very surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if it worked on XP as well. What makes it "unusable" is that it is unsupported by almost everyone. Every program, including NWN uses a lot of third party code: Windows libraries, GPU drivers, sound libraries, SDL, etc. If there is a bug in any of those, their vendors will not help BD. So they would need to spend _significant_ resources trying to work around an unknown bug in unsupported code they have no insight in.

    Having had some experience here, you can easily hit a bug that costs $100k to fix, and even $1M is not unheard of. There is just not enough XP/Vista people to justify that. And everyone else will be missing out on features they are unable to implement because they are focusing on support.


    That said, abandoning XP also opens up the possibilities of using some graphics tricks that are simply not available there. I'm not sure if EE currently does it, though.

    RAM021Sylvus_Moonbowtfox
  • ZwerkulesZwerkules Member Posts: 88


    That's wild, how does someone new to this game even know the nwvault exists? Back when I first played I didn't even know there was a way to unlock my voiceset for 6 months. I know this because I still have my original characters with the old timestamps....

    How does someone new to the game even know PWs exist? At least with 1.74 they'll be able to browse servers again.

    IndyWendieGoBelleSorcieretfox
  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50
    Zwerkules said:


    That's wild, how does someone new to this game even know the nwvault exists? Back when I first played I didn't even know there was a way to unlock my voiceset for 6 months. I know this because I still have my original characters with the old timestamps....

    How does someone new to the game even know PWs exist? At least with 1.74 they'll be able to browse servers again.

    The statement referred to the apparently high numbers of players in single player that I have no idea of.

    As for the multiplayer part... It just fails to load entirely for default nwn.... Most people will Google "nwn multiplayer" or "how to multiplayer nwn", which leads to posts that go to nwnlist or yourserverlist.

  • TimendainumTimendainum Member Posts: 24
    How does anything EE is doing affect those who want to stay on Windows XP and play 1.69. If you are for whatever reason stuck in antiquity, then why does it make any sense at all to hold back others that want to move forward?

    Furthermore, why should any improvements be offered to those not willing to support the new EE financially?

    RAM021tfox
  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50
    Lol I don't think anyone even read the posts and I spaced them nicely.

    I wanted to bring all of my players along with me into 1.74, but some of them still use XP and vista. I actually like my players and run my PW because we enjoy having an online game where we can play for fun without tyrants or abusive business policies.

    Judging from the tone of your message all the good you could be to me in anything is kindling. However I want to support the game, because I like it. My message is they gave me a hard choice to abandon people I like or not support the game.

    Mods please lock this thread. Being hijacked by people who are barely even able to read the title.

  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 751
    It would be better for everyone if Beamdog staff and the admins of servers with highly advanced features could do better than just acknowledging that they're at an impasse.

    Maybe if they actually worked together they could come up with a solution for these servers to switch over without downgrading to the outdated features of the EE version. In turn the servers could speed up Beamdog's new feature schedule by bringing them up to speed with contemporary 1.69 features.

    I don't know all the specific details but like I said it would be a shame to leave it at an impasse.

  • PlasmaJohnPlasmaJohn Member Posts: 26
    Liareth said:

    I think it's important that the community works together on this. NWN:EE really can breathe life back into NWN. In the last few weeks we have seen unprecedented cooperation between major servers towards the goal of bettering things for every party. We need to keep that going.

    If Beamdog is committed to working with Persistent Worlds can you get somebody to comment on this?

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/66971/authentication-hooks

    PW's need a secure means of user authentication when the new Master Server goes tango uniform. If you look at the history of the old one, you'll see that the outages were almost never during business hours and usually knocked us out for the whole weekend.

    RifleLeroy
  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50
    Liareth said:

    @FreshLemonBun I don't think we're at an impasse.

    - I reached out to Mavrixio before this thread existed and offered to bring some of their core client features into the base game. Per-part armour colouring is something that only Sinfar players have enjoyed until now, and there's more to come.

    - As an ex-admin on Arelith, I've also brought over many of the custom features featured there into the base game - sticky combat modes and hidden items being two of the big ones.

    - I am in contact with the leadership of Ravenloft and Higher Grounds, and I am working with them to make their migration process easier.

    - I've been working hard on a NWNX rewrite, and I - as well as the other members of the NWNX team - have brought over a ton of functionality that simply wouldn't exist right now if it were not for Beamdog's willingness to work with niv and I. It has never been easier to write new NWNX plugins and the code is open to everyone.

    - Leadership from many other top servers has a presence in the NWNX development chat and are free to ask for help or influence direction as they see fit.

    - If any other servers want personal attention from me, just contact me on Discord: Liareth#9765. I'll do what I can to help you migrate.

    If what you're asking for here is "give us cross play", that isn't going to happen because of the solid technical reasons outlined by niv and Trent earlier in this thread. If you're asking for help with porting your advanced functionality to the base game, then both Beamdog and I are absolutely open to that. Just reach out and we'll do what we can.

    I think it's important that the community works together on this. NWN:EE really can breathe life back into NWN. In the last few weeks we have seen unprecedented cooperation between major servers towards the goal of bettering things for every party. We need to keep that going.

    This could turn out quite amazing.

  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 751
    @Liareth Thank you for the extra information Liareth.

    I know supporting 1.69 isn't an option for Beamdog but I also gather from these threads that Mavrixio porting his 500+ enhancements might not be reasonable to expect either. I'm certain that there are many more options not discussed in these threads so I hope that Beamdog continues to negotiate with him. We've seen per part color swapping make it in so for, with promises of model resizing coming soon. It's great for people that have continued to play for 9 years without major advancements but there is still so much ground left untouch that seems already covered by Mavrixio for years.

    Having an expected time table or roadmap might give people better insight. If implementing Sinfar's best features is going to take one or two years it might really be in everyone's best interest if you guys work together. Maybe you can get it done in 2 months instead, probably not, I don't know the specifics.
    I'm sure it would also be refreshing to do new things rather than treading ground paved by others already.

    From a player perspective his character customization features and his live erf (mostly areas) import/export without server restart seem to be the best parts.

    So far we see color swapping, but it still needs all this.
    • per part material channel/palette swapping
    • per part per channel coloring
    • per part per channel color luminosity
    • per part per channel color saturation
    • per part per channel transparency
    • per part size scaling
    • per part rotation on x, y, and z, relative to the joint
    • per part translation on x, y, and z, relative to the joint
    • number of maximum part models increased for each type
    • all of the above for vfx too
    • save/load multiple vfx arrangements attached to several areas of the body
    • customizations to the base body carry over to worn outfits as if it's a phenotype
    For players the beauty of the system is that while it does seem complex at first, you don't need a custom phenotype or dynamic race for each person, they can just build it themselves in game.

    I think phenotype switching is something usually more used for things like walk/crouch/crawl/skip/swim and combat style (ninja, karate, kick boxing, etc) animation switching.

    The area thing is amazing because it allows a PW server to dynamically add dungeons as well as let players decorate their own house in the toolset and then upload it (via a web page) without bothering anyone. Bam! it's in the module. The door waypoints synch up automatically with the "house" building they purchased in the world and the area they created. It's part of the module (persists between resets) until removed which can also be done without reset.

    So hopefully Mavrixio and Beamdog can work together more on this stuff unless you already are.

    NelaK
  • NelaKNelaK Member Posts: 7


    The area thing is amazing because it allows a PW server to dynamically add dungeons as well as let players decorate their own house in the toolset and then upload it (via a web page) without bothering anyone. Bam! it's in the module. The door waypoints synch up automatically with the "house" building they purchased in the world and the area they created. It's part of the module (persists between resets) until removed which can also be done without reset.

    It goes beyond just uploading areas. The web interface also has a permissions system which allows controlling which Builders have access to modify or view what parts of the server. This is a key part of how Sinfar manages to have so many builders without someone going wild and bringing everything down.

    There is also a script editor and compiler in the web interface along with tools to create/edit conversations, items, creatures, placeables, factions, encounters, triggers, merchants, doors, waypoints, sounds, 2das... Its essentially a large part of the toolset re-implemented in a web interface. There is also versioning history so changes can be tracked and rolled back and this is all fully functional with no downtime or impact on the server and changes reflect in real time. The workflow is less: "build in the toolset and then see the results in game" and more "build in the toolset, web interface and game client". One thing I really enjoy doing is building an area with friends where they could be suggesting placeables and their placement while I'm building.

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 506
    Zwerkules said:



    If a server uses NWN 1.69 and those old people are playing on that server, why would they need a new computer that can run 1.74? They already have 1.69 and can continue playing on that server. As long as the server doesn't upgrade to 1.74 I don't really see a problem here at all.

    This./\

    NWNEE is sold as a bundle, is not it? It includes both EE and classic. So, if any new player ever comes to the game and get interested in PW all he/she needs to do in order to play on classic servers _too_ is to install that classic game he/she already owns.

    It looks like in the very worst scenario there will be just some kind of consolidation of classic PWs gamers - they will remain on PWs with 1.69 with those, who play on both type of PWs.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,946
    It's not been bundled yet, and historically, games get bundled on GOG but not on Steam or Beamdog.

    I would be surprised if it isn't bundled, though,

  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 751
    Nobody has attacked Beamdog, people that are the most engaged in the product brought up legitimate concerns grounded in fact and the reality of running contemporary servers with a more advanced feature set than the EE version.

    Until a feature is published in the game's feature list or in the patch notes then it simply does not exist. Discussion of the future is great but these servers don't run on promises and dreams alone.

    It seems unhelpful to Beamdog or to any developer when in impassioned defense of the developer ppl start drawing lines in the sand. The feedback they're getting here is from some of the most engaged communities that spent the most time extending the functionality of the game to offer advanced features.

    I find it usually helps to take a few steps back when considering issues like this one. I can't see fault on either the side of advanced servers nor Beamdog.

  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50
    The problem that caused this whole thing is we were told it wasn't backwards compatible during a period of time when it actually was. That *is* lying and is what caused the immense firestorm that followed as it dragged me and others into it when our players brought this up to us. We knew it wasn't true (we still have computers in our company running XP and I've coded exception handling myself for them).

    The whole thing really would of been avoided if there was an honest answer of "What we have planned is too great to keep things compatible".

    It died when Trent spoke only because he gave the honest answer of just too much to handle with the resources they have.

    Food for thought in the future.

  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 751
    It isn't about money. Some people would pay over $100 if the EE version made sense for their server and many of their players would pay as much too but the work needed and the differences between versions is a reality. Someone running a heavily extended server must commit to converting all their toys so yes it's grounded in facts because they need to put in work. They have to decide if it is worth the constant work or not. In some cases it might not be as the EE version is presented now is more of a stability update for new systems than a feature rich upgrade. You can't fault ppl for making rational decisions.

    Honestly it helps to think of the EE as more of a kickstarter than a feature rich enhancement. The intention and hope is that they open things up and add more features but the reality is that you currently only get what they've released so far. There was a post I saw recently where someone bought it and wanted to know why there wasn't advanced AI, but you know what? Beamdog never said it had advanced AI. So for some ppl this is a honeymoon period where excited perceptions and reality may not match up. The only things that are released are the features on the feature list and the patch notes.

    There is simply no point in creating animosity between people in an attempt to cheer lead the developer. It happens in a lot of communities and different games, it may feel good and cathartic, something you can really upvote with passion, but ultimately nothing useful ever comes from trying to alienate a large segment of the fanbase. I highly doubt that's what any developer wants either.

  • highv_priesthighv_priest Member Posts: 50
    Read it again. The crucial difference is Trent explained it was enough to ruin their efforts. Niv just simply listed off why they don't -want- to do it. Giving technical reasons meant nothing to most people who actually are involved deeply in nwn and nwnx as reverse engineering is significantly harder then changing actual source code with a much greater margin for error.

    Tl;Dr One spoke like a boss to minimum wage employees and the other like a friend explaining why they can't fly 500 miles to your wedding.

    It's irrelevant now, but it's possibly something to learn in future community announcements.

  • LiarethLiareth Member Posts: 74
    Personally, I disagree with your interpretation. But we're both allowed to have our own opinion and that's okay. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as it usually is. :)

  • SorenSoren Member, Developer Posts: 36
    And on that note... Merry Christmas everyone!

    Liarethnivdunahan
  • MavrixioMavrixio Member Posts: 14
    edited December 2017
    I think the real reasons to not support 1.69 servers are hidden, but its been made clear that the decision is taken.

    The result is just¸ unfortunate... It would have been easy to provide a way for the NWN:EE players to play on 1.69 servers, there would be 10x more people currently using the NWN:EE client and beta test it intensively but instead most PW are strugling on how they will move to EE. Personally, for Sinfar, keeping the EE compatibility plugin up to date is so much easier than trying to port our 1000+ NWNX features immediately to the EE nwserver/beta NWNX and then keeping those up to date every patch. As it is now, EE players can already join Sinfar and 1.69 players didn't even notice it. I just wish that I could tell them to get NWN:EE but I can't because even though I know that keeping the compatibility will remain easy, there's things out of my control like the master server which I think was just updated mainly to filter out Sinfar 1.69 servers from the list.

    Post edited by Mavrixio on
  • ildaronildaron Member Posts: 52
    Mavrixio said:

    I think the real reasons to not support 1.69 servers are hidden, but its been made clear that the decision is taken.

    The result is just¸ unfortunate... It would have been easy to provide a way for the NWN:EE players to play on 1.69 servers, there would be 10x more people currently using the NWN:EE client and beta test it intensively but instead most PW are strugling on how they will move to EE. Personally, for Sinfar, keeping the EE compatibility plugin up to date is so much easier than trying to port our 1000+ NWNX features immediately to the EE nwserver/beta NWNX and then keeping those up to date every patch. As it is now, EE players can already join Sinfar and 1.69 players didn't even notice it. I just wish that I could tell them to get NWN:EE but I can't because even though I know that keeping the compatibility will remain easy, there's things out of my control like the master server which I think was just updated mainly to filter out Sinfar 1.69 servers from the list.

    How many people play 1.69?

    In the grand scheme of things if everyone who currently owns copies of NWN that is playing now purchased an equal number of copies, would the investment pay off? My best guess is no. Licensing fees, man hours to improve things (it has been said we are in very early beta right now). This is head start for early adopters. How many copies do you think Beamdog is hoping to sell once the final product is done? The current fan base is awesome, however if only the current fans purchase this product, than it is a flop. I am thankful they are improving things.

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